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sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:21 AM Apr 2013

Look at West, Texas on Google Maps

http://goo.gl/maps/kFuak

And try to figure out what kind of fucking idiot would allow a middle school, a high school, a playground, an old folks home, an apartment building and a couple of dozen homes within a block or two of a fucking fertilizer plant?

No matter how this plays out, this town was so lucky that the explosion happened when the schools weren't filled with kids.

Gotta love Texas, the land without all those onerous Government regulations that would keep people from building schools next to an explosive waiting to happen.
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Look at West, Texas on Google Maps (Original Post) sharp_stick Apr 2013 OP
And Perry is inviting 'business' to Texas because they lack regulation. sinkingfeeling Apr 2013 #1
I'm glad you got the order of things right. The plant and storage tanks were there before... slackmaster Apr 2013 #2
It is too bad that local planning/zoning officials cannot be sued over allowing the building of pampango Apr 2013 #3
Land rights! n2doc Apr 2013 #10
Well you do have a right to your land... wercal Apr 2013 #20
Were there any local planning or zoning laws? surrealAmerican Apr 2013 #29
Not really their fault. Daemonaquila Apr 2013 #39
You can tell the plant sharp_stick Apr 2013 #4
The people who worked at the plant probably wanted to live close to it. slackmaster Apr 2013 #42
You know, it's not like this town was built yesterday, kentauros Apr 2013 #5
I'm sure it has sharp_stick Apr 2013 #7
People buy the homes and rent the apartments that are built in proximity to these sites. bike man Apr 2013 #13
It's called complacency. kentauros Apr 2013 #14
That's why you need sharp_stick Apr 2013 #19
Almost right nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #28
I hear you. I live in a small Texas town. sammytko Apr 2013 #12
West, Texas, is incorporated. kentauros Apr 2013 #17
Well...truth is Horse with no Name Apr 2013 #43
It looks like the old Main Street is south of the plant... wercal Apr 2013 #18
From what I've read, the company had been in business for 55 years. kentauros Apr 2013 #21
I imagine there were very few regulations in the 1950's wercal Apr 2013 #24
That kind of regulation would be easy (and cheap) enough for most towns. kentauros Apr 2013 #26
chlorine leak from a train wreck in rural part of san antonio killed a couple people in 2004 sammytko Apr 2013 #31
Thanks for that link. kentauros Apr 2013 #36
Anhydrous ammonia also is transported by rail in tank cars pinboy3niner Apr 2013 #40
Thanks for your work in that :) kentauros Apr 2013 #41
The regulation is likely in place wercal Apr 2013 #37
I'm sure when all is said and done we'll find out ... Ganja Ninja Apr 2013 #6
If only they had more guns..... TexasProgresive Apr 2013 #8
Add: Nonexistent or poorly managed safety protocols. n/t FSogol Apr 2013 #9
From what I heard, the plant had been there since the 50's. It's quite likely that... Poll_Blind Apr 2013 #11
I think you're right sharp_stick Apr 2013 #15
There are anhydrous tanks in almost every farming town in the Midwest. Coyotl Apr 2013 #16
Zoning is obviously socialism RyanThomas Apr 2013 #22
It happens all over the country. I saw it yesterday in my town. progressoid Apr 2013 #23
Yay, Free-Dumb! Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #25
Tell me how safe it is around the Chevron refinery Downwinder Apr 2013 #27
I'm not trying to say sharp_stick Apr 2013 #32
A gasoline pipeline exploded at the end of my street in L.A. in 1976; 4 dead, 16 injured pinboy3niner Apr 2013 #33
Texas - the home of deregulation Governor Rick Perry. bushisanidiot Apr 2013 #30
The plant has been there since 1955. n/t tammywammy Apr 2013 #34
A lot of small towns are like this... cynatnite Apr 2013 #35
Ignorance of small (and older) towns seems to be rampant these days. X_Digger Apr 2013 #38
 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
2. I'm glad you got the order of things right. The plant and storage tanks were there before...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:24 AM
Apr 2013

...the houses, school, etc.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
3. It is too bad that local planning/zoning officials cannot be sued over allowing the building of
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:27 AM
Apr 2013

apartments, houses, schools, etc. so close to an existing hazard. My guess is that they were under a lot of pressure from developers and local politicians to allow such developments or risk being portrayed as 'anti-business'.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
10. Land rights!
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:39 AM
Apr 2013

"It's my land and I'll build whatever I want on it" Isn't that the libertarian ideal?

The school is the worst. They could have put that one in many places, I would guess.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
20. Well you do have a right to your land...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:53 AM
Apr 2013

...and the plant doesn't have the right to impact your land with say, an explosion hazard.

This is complicated by the fact that the plant almost certainly pre-dates zoning laws in the area...so it was there first, and impacting probably farmland.

Buuuut....it has probably been expanded in some way since zoning was put in place and houses were built near it....which should have required a building permit. In a perfect world, witholding a permit would have forced the plant to pull stakes and move to a more remote area. But, I suspect it was a major employer in town, and alot of things slipped through the cracks.

Kind of a 'group ignorance'. However, as I posted elsewhere in this thread, looking from the air, I would have never suspected such a massive explosion could have come from that plant...and I bet others were just as ignorant to the danger.

 

Daemonaquila

(1,712 posts)
39. Not really their fault.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:20 PM
Apr 2013

I was listening to the radio this morning during a discussion about how the plant's federal reports described the "worst case scenario" as a 10-minute chemical emission that would be irritating but not fatal. The guest was talking about how this is the norm - plant managers report the worst that they expect to happen, not the worst that could happen. "Otherwise," he said, "no plants would ever be built."

This open corporate lie is a huge problem. When they're this brazen about mis-reporting for emergency planning, we clearly have a broken regulatory scheme and officials at every level who are complicit. This goes a lot farther than blaming officials in that town for allowing various things to be built in potentially dangerous areas.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
4. You can tell the plant
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:27 AM
Apr 2013

was at one point North of town on the rail line where it probably made sense. Then over the years nothing happened and complacency sets in, so they start getting closer and closer to it.

This kind of idiocy in planning isn't just dangerous it's unforgivable.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
42. The people who worked at the plant probably wanted to live close to it.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 06:35 PM
Apr 2013

Not a good choice, but zoning laws are almost unheard of in Texas.

It's not the only state where things are like that. I saw a major gas station called Jimmy Carter's right next door to a large fireworks store in South Carolina. I picked up some fun stuff at the fireworks store, and the boiled peanuts from Jimmy Carter's were fantastic.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
5. You know, it's not like this town was built yesterday,
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:29 AM
Apr 2013

or even in the last few decades. It's been around for a while.

And then there's that pesky fact that this kind of "planning" is rampant all across the nation, as we are told by those DUers living in such towns (outside of Texas.) This kind of town-planning is neither new nor particular just to Texas.

But, I know my words will be resoundingly ignored and dismissed.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
7. I'm sure it has
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:34 AM
Apr 2013

doesn't change the fact that it's idiotic to place schools and houses that close to a plant that makes and stores some pretty explosive shit.

Of course it's not just Texas, but it's Texas today that shows us what being so free of regulations can cause.

 

bike man

(620 posts)
13. People buy the homes and rent the apartments that are built in proximity to these sites.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:41 AM
Apr 2013

Some of the people attend the city/county/school board meetings when new building sites are proposed/discussed.

So, there is that.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
14. It's called complacency.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:41 AM
Apr 2013

And it happens everywhere. You may continue to define it as "stupid" but I'd define it as what most people think about their neighborhood businesses, and nothing happening in all the time (read, decades) they've lived there. At least, not until today. This will change the minds of the survivors.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
19. That's why you need
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:48 AM
Apr 2013

zoning and regulation.

A properly enforced zoning requirement would never allow complacency to take root.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
28. Almost right
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:33 AM
Apr 2013

You need involved citizens who become pests to local, and in a few cases state officials.

If we did not have those, a certain power plant would be well on it's way to be built. Yup, talking from watching involved citizens do just that.

sammytko

(2,480 posts)
12. I hear you. I live in a small Texas town.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:39 AM
Apr 2013

This doesn't surprise me.

Is this "town" even incorporated?

Our town makes rules through resolutions and then will vote to let Jim bob or Mary Sue do whatever because they are Betty jeans grand kids and they're good people.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
17. West, Texas, is incorporated.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:46 AM
Apr 2013

However, the fertilizer plant located themselves just outside of city limits in order to avoid city taxes (they'd still be subject to county taxes, but those would likely be much less than for the town.)

I don't even pretend to know much about small town life, other than observing it when visiting family. Yet it is pretty easy to figure out how they think in "city planning", i.e., there usually isn't any when the town is just starting off and growing through the decades.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
43. Well...truth is
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 06:40 PM
Apr 2013

that city limits in small Texas towns have been known to move to accommodate those that don't want to pay taxes.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
18. It looks like the old Main Street is south of the plant...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:46 AM
Apr 2013

....and the town grew in a somewhat linear direction, probably because of how the interstate constrains growth in all directions.

Looking from above, the plant doesn't look that big...I certainly would never have known an explosion like that could happen, and I bet alot of other people didn't either.

Another way to look at this - its not that people foolishly built (on their own property) close to the plant...the problem is that the plant posed a danger that extended beyond its own boundaries. In my experience, the regulation of these types of danger is done at the state level (Dept of Health and Environment) - but mandated by the federal government. So, somebody dropped the ball, or the plant owners were not truthfull in their disclosures about the danger, blast radius, etc. I imagine this plant pre-dates alot of regulation, and some things slipped through the cracks.

One thing I'm fairly sure of - insurance companies that cover these plants are going to do a review of what type of risk they are taking on, based on this.

One thing I always worry about in these small towns - train derailment. There is a small town near me, where the train derailed just outside of town. Based on the footprint of destruction, it certainly would have destroyed alot of houses, if it had happened in town. I see a similar issue in this town.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
21. From what I've read, the company had been in business for 55 years.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:54 AM
Apr 2013

That puts their their start at around 1958. I have to wonder what the federal regulations were at the time for this kind of thing. Because that's also about eleven years after the bigger disaster of Texas City, also from the explosion of fertilizer.

Freight train derailments worry me as well, and I live in a big city (Houston.) In fact, I live next to a power right-of-way that's next to a double pair of tracks. I've seen some nasty stuff being hauled to and from the Ship Channel and the petro-chemical plants out there. And the richest part of town here (River Oaks) has that same pair of tracks curving around behind it. I suspect none of them know what's traveling on those tracks so near to them...

wercal

(1,370 posts)
24. I imagine there were very few regulations in the 1950's
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:15 AM
Apr 2013

But there are today.

And the regulation I'm talking about is something as simple as a blast radius map and emergency action plan with the local fire dept (make sure they know what's in there and have the right chemicals to fight a fire, etc.). This may have been done...but it wasn't really looked at or followed when zoning and platting was done next to it.

My fear of derailment goes beyond chemicals...just the kinetic destruction of the cars flying off the track scares me.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
26. That kind of regulation would be easy (and cheap) enough for most towns.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:24 AM
Apr 2013

Perhaps more of them will look at what's in the backyards now and do something for their mutual safety.

The trains don't get up to speeds fast enough to do much more than make a jumbled mess if they derail here. I'm much more worried about leaks of stuff like vinyl chloride or hydrogen fluoride. Yet, I've also seen the local news get into a tizzy over a leak of liquified sulfur. I really wish they had at least one petroleum/chemical engineer on call for when such things happen.

Now, unless trains hit a large vehicle at a crossing (like a cement truck) they usually don't derail. However, I have heard of derailments caused by someone throwing a switch halfway, but they lock them down now.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
36. Thanks for that link.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:11 PM
Apr 2013

I'll have to read the rest of it at lunch. It reminds me of an accident we had on the freeways back in the 1970s, and I think it was also chlorine.

The worst "cloud" accident I recall wasn't from rail, but a hydrofluoric acid leak in Texas City. They evacuated people in time, but later aerial photos showed the path of the cloud. All vegetation along that route was dead.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
40. Anhydrous ammonia also is transported by rail in tank cars
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:28 PM
Apr 2013

We seem to be seeing fewer breaches with release of chemicals like these in accidents/derailments thanks to federal regulations promulgated a few decades ago. To prevent a common cause of release--breach of the tank head by couplers of adjacent cars--new hazmat tank cars were required to have tank head protection (basically a shield) and existing tank cars were required to be retrofitted. I was involved in studies of those types of accidents and in pushing for those new regs at the time.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
41. Thanks for your work in that :)
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:32 PM
Apr 2013

Most leaks I ever hear about these days are from the plants and not the transport vehicles.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
37. The regulation is likely in place
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:11 PM
Apr 2013

The disconnect comes when the local planning department doesn't understand that there is a blast radius map filed with the state....and they are generally (as I would be) ignorant of how dangerous that plant was. Its a disconnect and a communication issue (I deal with platting and zoning all the time). So, I can easily see how the development started to occur near the plant, without much of a second thought.

I can't remember the exact speeds, but I think a BNSF freight train runs at 52 mph, and Amtrak goes 73 mph...I'm going from memory. For obvious reasons, they have to slow down when entering a town...and occassionally something goes wrong, and things pile up.

Ganja Ninja

(15,953 posts)
6. I'm sure when all is said and done we'll find out ...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:32 AM
Apr 2013

That regulations were lax.
That Inspections were few and far between and inspectors were underfunded.
The whole business friendly climate where employees are powerless, barely trained and poorly paid was a factor.
That the night shift was comprised of a couple Americans and a mix of legal and undocumented workers.

And naturally it was the undocumented workers fault.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
11. From what I heard, the plant had been there since the 50's. It's quite likely that...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:39 AM
Apr 2013

...almost everything else around that plant was, for whatever reason, built after the plant was. I agree it's an absolutely dangerous idea but, again, from what I know, it's not the case of a potentially dangerous plant being built in the middle of all these things, but land developers, school boards, etc. choosing to build so close to it.

I agree about government regulations and I have to say I'm quite curious to know what exactly the reasoning was in this case.

PB

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
15. I think you're right
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
Apr 2013

looking at the map it appears that the plant was originally North of town and the town moved up to meet it.

Even back in the 70's we knew fertilizer plants were dangerous places and didn't want anything vital to be right next to them.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
16. There are anhydrous tanks in almost every farming town in the Midwest.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
Apr 2013

And they release gas in small amounts all the time. I was poisoned by a cloud of it in my home town.

RyanThomas

(23 posts)
22. Zoning is obviously socialism
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:55 AM
Apr 2013

By attempting to protect the lives of local inhabitants you obviously surrender to communism, at which point you lose your guns and UN peacekeepers spirit you away. Only by placing as many schools and crowded public buildings near dangerous locations can The Spirit of America as The Founders Intended (TSATFI) be preserved.

progressoid

(49,827 posts)
23. It happens all over the country. I saw it yesterday in my town.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:57 AM
Apr 2013

I was at our vet yesterday. Just down the street to the south is an enormous oil and solvent company. Two blocks to the north is a huge Con Agra food plant. Lots of houses and apartments between and around them.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
27. Tell me how safe it is around the Chevron refinery
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:30 AM
Apr 2013

in Richmond, California. It is not just in Texas. Look at the airports surrounded by development, the oil pipelines under subdivisions. It is all over the country/world.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
32. I'm not trying to say
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:58 AM
Apr 2013

this is just a Texas problem. I'm trying to say that allowing the building of schools next to a fertilizer plant is stupid no matter where it happens.

I'm not familiar with California so I can't say for certain but I'll bet that if you went to the city of Richmond today, or at any point in the last 30 or 40 years, and said you wanted to build a school on Xylene street they'd probably shoot you down.

The high school was built after 1987 and whoever figured that putting it next to a fertilizer plant was a good idea likely never was the brightest bulb on the tree. I grew up in a farming community back in the 80's and everyone knew the dangers of fertilizer.

If there were proper regulations in place the town would have looked at them and just maybe someone would have noticed that building a school there isn't all that good an idea.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
33. A gasoline pipeline exploded at the end of my street in L.A. in 1976; 4 dead, 16 injured
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:02 PM
Apr 2013

It was a gasoline pipeline from the Standard Oil refinery in El Segundo, struck by a backhoe during a street-widening project on Venice Bl. on the border of Palms/Culver City. None of us in the neighborhood had any idea that we had a gasoline pipeline running through our community. Minutes before the blast my wife returned home from shopping at the grocery store that was destroyed.

bushisanidiot

(8,064 posts)
30. Texas - the home of deregulation Governor Rick Perry.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:39 AM
Apr 2013

How old is the plant? just curious of the idiot governor had to sign off on it's location.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
35. A lot of small towns are like this...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:06 PM
Apr 2013

Everything is close together.

In my hometown we lived near a grain silo and a fertilizer plant. The hospital was just a few blocks away. The schools are within walking distance.

This isn't just Texas, this is a lot of small towns across America. They are agriculture communities.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
38. Ignorance of small (and older) towns seems to be rampant these days.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:20 PM
Apr 2013

Kinda sad, if it didn't lead to so many mean-spirited comments.

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