General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums83 dead and another 163 wounded . . . . and no headlines about it.
Every day in America, on average, there are 30 gun murders and 53 gun suicides in the US. An additional 162 people are wounded by gunfire. The story is now considered so mind-numbingly "ordinary" that no one reports on it unless it is as part of some other story. Those 83 dead people are considered by gun advocates as the collateral cost of maintaining sacrosanct their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
Eighty-three Dead People.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/16/murders-shootings-and-gun-sales-per-day_n_2488664.html
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)mokawanis
(4,434 posts)Gun nuts don't want to hear about the daily carnage. They just want to fondle their precious and feel powerful.
rwsanders
(2,585 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Atlatl
(57 posts)we need to ban high-capacity 12-packs.
If it saves just one life.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Shameful.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)How many of those don't involve guns?
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)bar brawls are another. Drunk idiots doing stupid things...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)That is what we are debating here.
I doubt very much that the number of murders by way of bar brawls is anywhere near the above cited statistics.
NickB79
(19,111 posts)I'd call that alcohol-related murder.
http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/drunk-driving-statistics.html
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And as for alcohol fueling incidences that do NOT involve guns -- it only goes to further my point that alcohol is far more dangerous than guns. We can add traffic accidents, child abuse, child sexual assault, domestic violence, chronic health problems, industrial and residential accidents, etc., etc., etc. to the list of ills alcohol visits on our society. Under-aged drinking alone, results in 4700 deaths annually; the equivalent of 4.5 Newton tragedies per week!
In contrast, rifles only account for less than 400 guns deaths annually and semi-automatic rifles are a sub-set of that category. In other words, 11.75 children will be killed directly by alcohol for every rifle-related death adult or child, semi-auto or not.
If "you don't need it and we need to save lives" were really the argument being made the more threatening monster seems obvious. Yet, no one talks about alcohol prohibition because the folly is historically manifest. The only people gun control will disarm are those that already respect the law as such and they are not the problem.
Let's be honest, are we really talking about saving lives here or is this just an exercise in fear-mongering politics?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)that did not use a gun.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)You said, "Are you suggesting there aren't any alcohol related murders, suicides.."
I asked how many alcohol related murders and suicides did not include guns, because that is the subject of this OP.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)My counterpoint is alcohol is more dangerous as it leads to more crimes, disease and accidents than alcohol. The intersection between guns and alcohol would be secondary, at best. Case in point -- A firearm is present in only 3% of sexual assaults but alcohol is a factor in 37% of sexual assaults.
So, should a society guarding against sexual assault seek to control guns or control alcohol if it wanted to prevent the greatest number of crimes?
As I posted down-thread, alcohol accounts for 75,000 disease and accident-related deaths and 3 MILLION crimes ranging from murder to assault annually (second link) whereas guns of all sorts account for only 850,000 crimes annually (first link).
By way of contrast the National Institute of Justice reported in 1997 (read: Clinton administration) there were 1.5 million defensive gun uses (DGUs) annually; meaning people defend themselves with guns 3:1 over gun-related crimes. Since then, the number of privately-owned guns in America has nearly doubled while guns crimes continue to decline (first link).
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Not deaths.
You suggested that there were a significant number of alcohol related murders and suicides. You have yet to provide a number for that, excluding the use of guns.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And I did provide it if you go to the links, i.e. -- http://www.ncadd.org/index.php/learn-about-alcohol/alcohol-and-crime
LMGTFY --
Alcohol is a component of suicidal behavior, said Dr. Alex Crosby, author of the report published on Thursday in the C.D.C.s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. It leads to disinhibition, and it can enhance feelings of hopelessness and depression. Alcohol impairs judgment and can lead to much more impulsive behavior."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/health/19suicide.html?_r=0
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You are flailing in your apologia.
I am also embarrassed for you trying to minimize murders and suicides by using the term "havoc" as a comparison.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Unless you're testing my Google-Fu I'm not sure where you're going with this. Just make your point already.
The OPs point is guns lead to murders and suicides. My point is alcohol is a significant factor in not just murder and suicide but a host of other evils as well.
Since you're so determined to argue about suicide and since the OP is part of the hand-wringing and tooth-gnashing about the just-defeated bill perhaps you can Google-up some stats on how many suicides would have been prevented by universal background checks and magazine capacity restrictions. How many people putting a gun to their head ever require more than 15-rounds?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)This kind of logic only leads to one thing. More Americans waking up and figuring out that guns are a big problem and they aren't regulated enough.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)We talking about gun REGULATION. Kinda like we have for most dangerous things ... like ... say ALCOHOL.
Outright alcohol prohibition clearly didn't work, but I guarantee you that a lot less people under 21 drink alcohol than would be the case if we hadn't made it illegal for them to buy it. Regulations can, and do ... work.
I'd also argue that there's great possibility that law-abiding citizens could play a role in reducing gun violence by the existence of them observing 'regulations'. Like ... law-abiding citizens NOT selling guns w/o background checks, and keeping their guns locked up in safes when not in use, and NOT selling large magazines to anybody who wants them.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)supposed to avert. It was a fraud of a bill; a lie to the very families it was meant to console. Meanwhile, people like Loughner, Holmes and Hassan go unreported even though the rules already on the books say they should have been.
The capacity limit is also a fraud. Less than 400 people are killed annually with rifles. That includes semi-autos as a sub-set of rifles and spree/rampage killings with semi-auto rifles are yet a smaller sub-set of that sub-set. A sub-set of a sub-set of less than 400 versus 75,000 alcohol-related premature deaths and 3 million alcohol-related crimes.
It's a farce.
Pointy_n_sharp
(29 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)the capacity limit could also make a critical difference in the right situation. Are you seriously syaing we should do nothing about guns?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Why bother having laws if the enforcers ignore them? Would you want a magazine capacity-limit law that went unenforced?
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)to that post, or just repeat the laws.
In any case, your point about alcohol is interesting but I would like to see it fleshed out a bit more. Obviously both alcohol and guns can be used safely, and both are regulated heavily. Both can be abused.
I guess one difference might be how many people use alcohol regularly versus use guns regularly. I suspect way more people drink than use guns regularly.
But still, the bottom line for me is that guns make it very easy to kill someone, and it only makes sense to have universal background checks. It's hard to imagine them hurting more than helping guns get into the hands of dangerous people.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Let me start by saying, thank-you.
Loughner had been known to the authorities and was suspended from college because he was deemed a potential threat. Holmes saw a psychiatrist who reported him, per state law, to authorities. Hassan gave slide presentations extolling the virtues of violent jihad at his job as an Army officer. If memory serves the Virginia Tech shooter also had a history the authorities were well aware of.
Those were the episodes to which I was referred.
I think what makes the difference is what sort of person someone wants to be. Perhaps the Latins had it correct -- in vino veritas. I would argue against Prohibition because I see no reason good people should be infringed upon over the actions of others even though there are 3 million episodes a year where those others act a damned fool. This is in spite of the fact I do NOT believe alcohol is a right, at least not in the same light as free conscience or self-defense.
My belief that the casual drinker ought not be penalized because of the acts of millions of other knuckleheads stems from my belief that people should be judged on an individual basis. That underscores my support for the 2nd Amendment; judge people on what they do, not as a collective assumption of guilt and punishment.
Thank-you again for the conversation.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)You make good points, but to me it comes down to the fact that no one that I know of is saying we should take all guns away, just like no one is saying we should take all alcohol away.
We regulate guns, we regulate alcohol.
I enjoy drinking wine and beer, and would be very upset if they prohibited all alcohol sales. But if they decided to restrict alcohol use in some relatively minor way, I could live with it. For instance, I am middle-aged-- way over 21, but they make you show ID every time you buy alcohol here in Indiana, no matter what your age. It's a dumb law, but we live with it.
Basically, I just don't see the harm in universal background checks. I don't see the harm in limiting magazine size. I do see that they might help to limit gun deaths in some way.
Assuming your statistics on alcohol deaths are accurate, you do have to wonder why there isn't more call to regulate alcohol. Undoubtedly it is a huge business-- even larger than the gun business. And more people have favorable views of alcohol than guns, I would bet. Still, an interesting comparison.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)There are age limits, ID checks and time/use restrictions.
You can't operate a car and drink -- or shoot.
You can brew your own alcohol and no one can card whom you share it with. I inherited my MILs pistol without it pass through a Federal Firearm Licensee.
There's no *reason* to have a high-capacity beer keg but sometimes its good to have when you get together with friends. Ditto a day with friends where you go shooting.
I personally shot my first semi-auto rifle not long ago and the attraction for women is unmistakable. They're very easy to manage -- which also makes them safer as there is no fumbling -- and the kick is practically non-existent. I'm only 5' 3" myself and barely 110 pounds. I fired 2 shots from shotgun and called it quits and wore a bruise for a week.
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)gungion. (Also you may want to check your, ah, typing skills)
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Blow it out your ear.
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)Oh, and I'd like a mint julep, please, since you asked so nicely.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I stand by my post.
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)relatives and friends caught up in the mayhem of the Boston Patriots Day bombing has made me less so. Less tolerant of fellow DUers that are gun owner rights and NRA supporters. (I am not surprised that you say I am 'nobody to you'. Not having empathy for fellow human beings is one of the hallmarks of people who hold gun rights positions).
I am saying I am less willing than usual to read and ignore RKBA talking points.
No after what happened in the Senate today. Not after what happened on Monday.
There are many in the RKBA forum who are eager for your insight and wisdom. You should go tend to them.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You're going to take an incident that had no relation to guns and exploit it.
You don't tell me what to do. You can play the wounded, high-dudgeon internet tough guy all day long if that is what makes you feel better in whatever it is you call your existence. I have a right to speak my mind. I will not be silenced or leave because somebody who is nobody demanded I do so. If you have an actual rebuttal to what I post then by all means offer it up and we'll compare notes. Until then --
blow it out your ear
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)your replies only confirm what I suspected about being empathy impaired. First of all, I didn't demand that you leave this thread. I "suggested" Secondly, you ask for the tired old 'if you have an actual rebuttal to what I post' bulltwanky. That's the thing about RKBA forum folks, you post pro gun non-secquitor "arguments" like 'Well, he could have killed the guy with a baseball bat' or 'What about all the alcohol related deaths' and then try to fulminate side discussions that let you espouse your beliefs. I fell for it. Well, I gotta get back to practicing my high-dudgeon-ness. See ya. (BTW, I DO like your profile pic of the embracing Obamas!)
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)(the few times they try). Your lack of substantive reply only serves to demonstrate the points remain unchallenged.
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)you cite 'real research', that doesn't make your post relevant. Yes people die by lots of different ways. The OP was about the fact that so many deaths by guns go underreported. GUN deaths. Not car accident deaths involving collisions with unicorns.
Oh, and just so you aren't left with the notion that I'm going all "high dudgeon" , and you are not, I've not had a post hidden by jury, and you've had 4 recently.
If you don't like challenges to your opinions, DU offers an "ignore" option.
It's been swell chatting, but I'm afraid I've gotta go. See ya.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Gun control advocates evidently don't care how many people die. By their own admission, yours included, they do not have any interest in saving as many lives as possible, they only want to end deaths by a certain means. They'll sacrifice 50 lives that die by X in order to save 1 life that dies by Y.
That your fellow gun-grabbers hide posts to hide this fact isn't an indictment against the facts I and others present; it shows that they respect free speech as much as they respect self-defense rights. And arguing to popularity isn't an argument; it's a concession without courage.
Please feel free to actually offer a challenge. it would be a refreshing change of pace.
FailureToCommunicate
(13,989 posts)Your opinions are no longer of interest to me (or anyone else probably) because they are not really yours. You are under the influence of and spouting the talking points of views of the NRA. Too bad. Kinda sad for an obviously otherwise intelligent person.
so...
Bye Bye
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)to keep and bear arms without infringement or undue burden. In that case, I had you wrong and I apologize.
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)you trade deaths to prevent your precious from being grabbed?
How sad for you.
140+ recs make you the loser here
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And spare us the "you don't care!" because the bull. The majority of the 83 killed will be suicides but dare suggest mental health services take an interdiction approach and its's wall-to-wall "But they have civil rights!" which apparently translates to -- disarm them but leave them sick and tortured. The next biggest portion of violators are repeat offenders but apparently they have their civil rights too and it's wrong to stigmatize them for life or something.
But if you're looking for external factors alcohol and drugs fuel far more violent crimes but I don't see the holier-than-thou mob demanding any action on that front. Some would even call alcohol and hard drugs a right.
In fact, the people killed in an incident involving semi-auto rifles and/or magazine that fired more than 15 rounds breaks the 1.5% threshold (30,000 gun deaths / 370 being rifle related = 81 annually, then filter for 16+ rounds fired).
So, you choose to do nothing effective about 98.5% of gun deaths. You want an enemies totem and you're willing to sacrifice tens of thousands annually and defend people's rights to be suicidal, alcoholic and/or a repeat violent offender. But those who have never bothered anyone are presumed guiltier than the actually guilty, more unbalanced than the actually unbalanced.
Your post is a self-parodying, arrogant farce of smug self-righteousness. Get back to me when you actually want to save lives rather than just lecture and preen.
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)have a nice day.
Unarmed and unharmed.
Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #5)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Here's some stats on alcohol-related crime. As you can see there are no hard numbers on the number of deaths annually --
Excessive drinking leads to criminal behavior:
The US Department of Justice (DOJ) estimated that a majority of criminal offenders were under the influence of alcohol alone when they committed their crimes.
Federal research shows that for the 40% of convicted murderers being held in either jail or State prison, alcohol use was a factor in the homicide.
FACT: Alcohol is a factor in 40% of all violent crimes today
About 3 million violent crimes occur each year in which victims perceive the offender to have been drinking. Crimes include: rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated and simple assault. About two-thirds of violent crimes are characterized as simple assaults.
Based on victim reports, alcohol use by the offender was a factor in:
37% of rapes and sexual assaults
15% of robberies
27% of aggravated assaults, and
25% of simple assaults
Statistics showing correlation between alcohol and crime (from the NCADD Fact Sheet Alcohol and Crime):
Among violent crimes, the offender is far more likely to have been drinking than under the influence of other drugs, with the exception of robberies, where other drugs are likely to have been used such as alcohol.
Alcohol is more likely to be a factor in violence, where the attacker and the victim know each other. Two-thirds of victims who were attacked by an intimate (including a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend) reported that alcohol had been involved, and only 31% of victimizations by strangers are alcohol-related.
Nearly 500,000 incidents between intimates involve offenders who have been drinking; in addition, 118,000 incidents of family violence (excluding spouses) involve alcohol, as do 744,000 incidents among acquaintances.
1.4 million incidents of alcohol-related violence are committed against strangers.
Individuals under age 21 were the victims in just over 13% of incidents of alcohol-related violence, and the offenders in nearly 9%.
70% of alcohol-related incidents of violence occur in the home with greatest frequency at 11:00 pm ..20% of these incidents involve the use of a weapon other than hands, fists or feet.
http://www.ncadd.org/index.php/learn-about-alcohol/alcohol-and-crime
I'm sure you'll agree, 3 million violent crimes per year being related to alcohol is a stunning figure and most assuredly a drain on the system not counting the human toll.
This next article shows 74,000 fatalities but those are due to disease and accidents but no mention of alcohol-related crimes --
Excessive alcohol consumption is the third leading cause of preventable death in the United States after tobacco use and poor eating and exercise habits.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which published the study, estimated that 34,833 people in 2001 died from cirrhosis of the liver, cancer and other diseases linked to drinking too much beer, wine and spirits.
Another 40,933 died from car crashes and other mishaps caused by excessive alcohol use.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6089353/ns/health-addictions/t/alcohol-linked-us-deaths-year/#.UW9eALXV9KA
indepat
(20,899 posts)homage to their ludicrous interpretation of the Second Amendment.
Response to indepat (Reply #6)
Name removed Message auto-removed
liberal N proud
(60,300 posts)Individual incidents don't have any sensationalism.
Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)
bike man This message was self-deleted by its author.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts).
defacto7
(13,485 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Response to FarCenter (Reply #11)
Name removed Message auto-removed
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)moondust
(19,917 posts)Sick.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)down? Fact is Gun Violence is increasing because of Desperate People.
I'm for gun Control...but, what we are going through is Desperate People with Guns...
Not a Good Mix. So focus on Gun Control has to get a'hold of Why Folks Use Guns...and why violence goes up when times are bad ...like they are now.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)Look it up. Dare ya.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)be more important that the unfettered right to own guns.
Oh, and to the poster who brought up alcohol related deaths: well, yeah. But that's a totally separate discussion.
In addition some 400,000 people each year die from smoking. Personally, I would not object to smoking being outlawed, but for the very most part smokers only kill themselves. Yes, second-hand smoke is a real issue, but again, that's a separate discussion.
I keep on asking the question: Would it make a difference if the loved one of one of the gun apologists were to be killed or maimed? I guess not. I guess to the gun apologists it's okay if their own child, spouse, cousin, parent, sibling gets killed. It's all okay because the right to own guns trumps the right to remain alive.
watoos
(7,142 posts)in Alabama, halfway between Philly and Pittsburgh. I am simply amazed at the local bloggers who talk about hiding loaded guns throughout their house. Some guns with strobe lights attached to blind the murdering rapist who is just waiting to break into their house. I don't converse with them, you can't reason with crazy. It must be sad to live every day in so much fear.
Patiod
(11,816 posts)Went to school there! Have lots of friends there! Pennsyltucky, where the radio offers country & western, Christian, and conservative Talk Radio. And maybe public radio from State College if you're super-lucky.
My brother lives in the armpit of NC, and it's the same thing - he was convinced he was going to save his 65 yo wife from murdering rapists by having several guns in the house (like it helped that prosecutor in Texas).
Now he's a widower, and I'm wondering if it's a great idea for someone like him who has attempted suicide in the past to have an arsenal in his house.
Quixote1818
(28,903 posts)One Bombing and they are ready to do all kinds of legislation to prevent other bombings. But they don't care about something that is much more likely to kill them.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Now I can't speak for everyone, but I see stories about someone being killed with a gun in the news ever day. While I'll admit my local news sources tend not to carry every gun related death that occurs throughout the nation, I don't think they're ignored by the press either.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)are sick people.
SunSeeker
(51,367 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)... with the result that we tend to run off in the wrong direction.
Nearly all of those 83 people were killed by handguns, the one kind of weapon our party doesn't seem to want to do anything about.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)And the suicides all poisoned themselves or jumped off of bridges?
Stinky The Clown
(67,673 posts)Pointy_n_sharp
(29 posts)Permanently attached to their wrists....
Otherwise, not gonna help.
valerief
(53,235 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)~Howard Beale, Network 1976
mucifer
(23,373 posts)Stinky The Clown
(67,673 posts)Taken individual events, these shootings become background noise in today's America. My point is they should be considered part of an ongoing, never ending attack on all of us.
madinmaryland
(64,920 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)That's because cars kill a lot of people every day. It's not news. Unless there's a local car accident resulting in a death. Taht's news to the local area.