How can so many people on a "progressive" board want the right-wing to take over in Venezuela?

[Ken Burch]

There's no question that this result is legitimate. The only reason it was close is because Maduro is a cruddy campaigner(it had nothing to do with the issues, since Capriles has no real ideas).

Why would anyone here prefer and trust the candidate that the wealthy in Venezuela are backing? That U.S. corporations are backing?
That the State Department(and probably, God help us the CIA)supports?

It's embarassing. This is NOT what we're supposed to be about.

Those who are encouraging Capriles not to concede are helping the powerful against the powerless, and may, though they don't mean to, be helping to create the conditions for some sort of coup.

We don't want another Honduras, folks.

[whathehell]

1. Beats me...I haven't seen it here, but I believe you, and I'm certainly not for that. n/t

[aggiesal]

70. It's easy. Here's the reason why . . .

Obama received $2,410,062 in donations from the Energy & Natural Resources lobby

These Energy & Natural Resources Companies include:
Oxbow Corp, Alliance Resource Partners, [font color=Red]Chevron Corp, Exxon Mobil,
Koch Industries[/font], Dore Energy, National Rural Electric Cooperative Assn, Exelon Corp,
[font color=Red]Occidental Petroleum[/font], Chesapeake Energy, Murray Energy, Continental Resources,
Clayton Williams Energy, Cumberland Development, Petco Petroleum, Dominion Resources,
Southern Co, FirstEnergy Corp, Pilot Corp, National Mining Assn

Chevron and Exxon want the OIL rights from Venezuela.
And as long as the current Venezuelan administration continues to use the OIL
money to help the poor, the oligarchs in Venezuela are powerless, thus no OIL
for Chevron or Exxon.

[whathehell]

82. Oh, I knew that, actually...I guess I was just hoping Kerry was a little better.

Yes, I knew all along why the media here tries to villify him as a "dictator" and all that.

I've written a number of supportive posts on right-leaning blogs to remind people that, for one thing,

he WAS democratically elected twice and that Jimmy Carter even verified that as an "observer"


This is SO sad and really pisses me off....I mean, God forbid he would actually want to help the

poor and claim, in their name, sovereignty over the his own country's own resources.

I just feel bad that, as an American, all I can basically do is try to educate people,

and get oil from CITGO whenever I can.

The spouse and I would love to visit the country, but we're concerned that, if we did, we'd land on

some "no fly" list and be watched by the FBI or the CIA.

[aggiesal]

87. Kidnap for ransom . . .

is big business in Venezuela.
I wouldn't go within 1000 miles of the place.
No offense to the Venezuelans on the site.
My parents are from Mexico, and I have aunts and
uncles that live in Juarez, and I won't go to Mexico
either.

[whathehell]

94. Whoah...Thanks for sharing that!

I most definitely will not go, then.

I knew that Juarez was dangerous...As I recall, something like 200 women murdered

in a matter of a couple years?...Hideous. I also knew they had a kidnap for ransom

thing going on in Mexico, in fact there was a very interesting documentary on tv about

a year ago...It concerned a middle class couple, he was Mexican, an architect I believe,

and she was an American, a schoolteacher, I think.

Anyway, they went down to live -- not in Juarez, but a chi chi expat haven -- San Miguel

Allende, I think, and he was kidnapped and held for ransom. He did survive, but it was a terrible

ordeal for both. It's why I roll my eyes when I hear of these middle class American retirees

planning to go to San Miguel Allende, thinking they're going to some paradise. As I recall,

the documentary indicated that there are many kidnappings there that don't get reported

by the mainstream media.

Again -- Thanks for the heads up.

[aggiesal]

96. I have a cousin . . .

who coincidently shares my exact name,
was killed in a drive by at a Juarez drug rehab center.
My uncle says it's really bad in Juarez.

About Venezuela, about a year ago a famous baseball
player, I think he played/plays for ths Braves, was kidnaped
in Venezuela for ransom. Some of these high paid athletes
live in secure compounds to keep from this from happening.

It's a beautiful countrty, just too bad about the conditions.

[sabrina 1]

111. I have friends in Venezuela and they are very happy to be living there. I can't wait to go there

myself. Venezuela is a beautiful country with wonderful people. The RIght Wing there however, is very dangerous and a real threat to the people there. I wish the Government would crack down more on them, but if they did, our Western propaganda machine would be screaming.

Now however, it appears they may have gone too far so I'm hoping to see an end to their thuggery and treason.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. I just want the truth. There is much question the result is legitimate or not.

Elections need to be fair and honest. It's a fundamental premise of democracy, whether we like the result or not.

Maduro is going off the deep-end after the election with his statements and actions. Before the election he squandered his lead down to nothing.

[sabrina 1]

71. When right wing scum start caring about 'recounts' we know who is behind it. Caprilles is right wing

scum who is being backed by Oil Cartels who would have been their puppet had the Venezuelan people not put a stop to their efforts, once again.

It is criminal that this country is in any way involved in trying to overturn a demoncratically leader in a Latin American country. Haven't we enough criminal history doing that in that part of the world?

And why do we here care about those elections? Why do you feel you need 'the truth' about a sovereign nation that has nothing to do with us? Do you realize how arrogant that sounds? The Ven. people have the cleanest elections in the civilized world. We should be taking lessons from them. For us, of all people to be sticking our corrupt noses into other countries' elections, pretending we actually care about honest elections is not short of ridiculous.

Let's worry about our own elections, we sure need to do something about them. I envy Venezuela's election system.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

76. "The Ven. people have the cleanest elections in the civilized world." Don't be ridiculous. nt

[sabrina 1]

112. There is no problem with the elections in Venezuela. The right wing scum who have been

operating in that part of the world for decades are liars. And fortunately they have finally been exposed, caught on tape manufacturing lies about the election. And no doubt backed by money from Western Corporations, as they have always been.

This time however, with Latin America having moved so far from their former Western backed dictators, I think despite their bests efforts, the violence they are currently engaging in which is reprehensible, it will be much more difficult to regain control of that region. But they sure are trying, using the same old Right Wing tactics they've always used, mostly violence.

[Exultant Democracy]

3. Capriles is not just slime he is scary slime. I know one of his cronies

about 10% of the stuff you find in the US media on Ven is written this "friend" of mine. He has been in every major publication, hiding behind his Ivy league education to pretend what he shovels isn't pure propaganda bullshit designed to let him and his buddies take back the billions that Chavez cost them.

[Blue_Tires]

4. You'd be surprised...I've seen a LOT of highly questionable stuff posted on DU the past couple years

[djean111]

5. +1000

I don't even get the premise - if he should have won by more, doesn't that point to right-wing fraud? Or a lousy campaign?
I am getting the idea that a recount is wanted because some ballots have been "lost".
Starting to remind me of Rove on election night, shuffling papers and insisting that Romney would win Ohio.
And really - it looks like all South American countries have accepted the results. Why should the United States feel it must override the results?

[geek tragedy]

6. It is possible that people may support the ideological goals of Maduro's party

but question some of the process surrounding elections there.

Of course, a lot of people's concern over process is directly tied to the side for whom they are rooting.

Maduro is going to have to get his act together politically, or Cabriles will win the next time.

[SamKnause]

7. Election

I find it puzzling as well.

[sufrommich]

8. No one on an internet forum is "helping the

powerful against the powerless". No one with even an iota of power here or there is watching and waiting to see what DU thinks about anything.

[Arctic Dave]

9. Because they are not "progressives" at all.

They are trolls. Period.

Fuck them and their love of fascist.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

31. Yup. This is the "Democratic" Underground, not the "Progressive" Underground

Not all of us are willing to overlook election fraud.


> Fuck them and their love of fascist.

That sentence should be, "their love of fascism".

I mean really! The least you can do is make your over the top hyperbole and pie-in-the-sky liberal sanctimony grammatically correct. At this rate, you'll start embarrassing teabaggers.

-C.D. That's grammar-fascist to you bub

[Arctic Dave]

34. Actually, it should have been "for fascist"

No hyperbole involved. They are fascist.

Corporate controlled scumbags.

[frylock]

46. what election fraud are you talking about?

[JanMichael]

67. Probably the fraud in their pants. Just a guess.

Reichwingers, even "democratic" ones, are short on facts.

[grahamhgreen]

80. It's Democratic "Underground", not Democratic "Corporatist Working Group"

[ctsnowman]

107. lol Love it.

[2ndAmForComputers]

84. Oooooo we have a PERFECT fit.

It looks MAR-vel-ous!

[joshcryer]

89. Progressives don't justify authoritarianism.

[Ken Burch]

109. Years of election results you didn't like does not equate to "authoritarianism".

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

It would not be a progressive result, in any sense, if Capriles and his "pro-business" cabal took over. The masks would be taken off the next day and It would turn into "Welcome To Athens".

That's what being "pro-business" means...being anti-humanity.

[hifiguy]

113. Amen, brother.

Amen. Truth! "Pro-business" always means one thing and that is "Screw everyone but the plutocrats to the wall and kill them if they get uppity."

[joshcryer]

117. Your typo reveals yourself.

In the end, Maduro is the pro-business candidate. Just watch and see. I'm glad Capriles lost in the end.

[whatchamacallit]

103. The old grey

mare DU, she ain't what she used to be

[Skittles]

10. same reason they pimp guns, offshoring and think Obama rates 100% progressive

because they are stupid

[11 Bravo]

14. Skittles, your problem is that you always pussy-foot around the issue instead of just telling us ...

what you really think! (That must be why you are one of my all-time favorite posters.)

[Marr]

47. Pretty much this.

[Skittles]

56. I don't beat around the bush, devilgal

I get right to the point; yes INDEED

[Skittles]

58. YOU WANT I SHOULD KICK NAIVE KEN BURCH ASS, 11 BRAVO?

I THINK I COULD HELP HIM; yes INDEED

[tralala]

19. yup

turnip-heads

[hifiguy]

32. Eeyup.

[L0oniX]

37. LMFAO

[msongs]

11. the obama administration wants the "right wing to take over in Venezuela" hmmm nt

[Ken Burch]

12. Ultimately, yes.

Look what they did in Honduras.

They've been hostile to Chavez, Morales(in Bolivia), Correa and the the other genuine Left governments in the hemisphere since they got in. What else would you call that?

[Liberal_Dog]

81. Sadly, There Is Nothing Really New In That

Most Administrations, even Democratic ones, have been hostile to leftist governments in Central and South America.

[KoKo]

52. Yes...the American Imperialist Culture wants the RW to Take Over

Venezuala. And...I'm just an ordinary American Citizen who has AWAKENED to THIS!

BUT...it's about "THE OIL" and I've been following the Tracks.

[noiretextatique]

13. effective "red scare" campaign

even on liberal and progressive sites you hear the fear of the creeping red menace so prop up some brutal dictator instead...better dead than red (for those people anyway). and then of course, there's the underlying paternalism/racism/first worldism that suggests brown people should listen to white people before they listen to themselves.

[Ken Burch]

23. True. Some of these folks act like it's still 1947

and the "Red" Army has just set up shop in Eastern Europe.

They don't get it that that era is over, and nothing like that is ever likely to recur.

[byeya]

27. Definately a longing for the Cold War days. As the US SoS and Churchill said, if you want to

stay in power you've got to scare the electorate and keep them scared.

[KoKo]

59. Propaganda Machine by MSM in full Force..Look at Flub Up over

Boston Bombings... Had a Suspect to Prosecute...then they didn't ...then They DID and then...4 p.m. Press Conference by FBI from Boston...CANCELLED after CNN and All the MSM Outlets said...Suspect was Captured.

Although WE KNEW...it wasn't TRUE from Past Experience. It was either another Richard Jewell caught up in the WEB or LIES to MSM...that were Billed as TRUTH for RATINGS.

[Zorra]

15. Progressive board?!? OMG, I thought it said conservative underground!

Chavez sucks! Down with the left! End Democratic Socialism!!! Down with libruls! Support Corporatist Government in Venezuela!

[reformist2]

16. When it comes to foreign policy, Americans are easily led by the media.

[BlueToTheBone]

17. I think there are few right wing trolls who have kept up a relentless barrage of

Capriles cheerleading and Maduro bashing.

The same names keep coming up with each negative post.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Yes, there are four or five people who never show up except to bash Chavez

You have to wonder about posters like that.

[BlueToTheBone]

61. ...

I asked Bacchus4.0 if that meant he was a wino to the fourth power. But, no response.

[HiPointDem]

18. the same people pushing for war in iran, syria, etc.

[dballance]

20. Appears to Me Most of the Threads/Replies of Which you Speak Come from One Member

Anecdotally, it appears to me that there is a member here on DU, who I will not name, that is starting many of the anti-Maduro, the left is violent, election was rigged, type threads and replies. They seem to be the one supporting Capriles the most.

When I see an new Venezuela thread or reply from this member I simply ignore it. Take a look at the threads and posts. You'll spot the member.

They have been here a long time and have a high post count. If they were brand new and posting all the anti-Chavista stuff they've posted I'd send them to MIRT or the admins as a RW troll suspect.

[joshcryer]

90. Hiya.

I am not a right wing troll, my posts are fully consistent with leftism, anti-authoritarianism, socialism. I just know more than the rest on the issue because many have knee jerk reactions to Venezuelan politics. Venezuela feins anti-imperialism while the US is their biggest business partner.

[polly7]

99. LOL. nt.

[joshcryer]

102. Oh look, my favorite substanceless hit and runner!

[Dawson Leery]

21. If any fraud occured, Capriles and company were behind it.

They are the ones "finding" ballots after the fact.
The polls before the election had Maduro 8-10% ahead of Capriles. The final result was 2%
Capriles is pissed off because his Harris' and Blackwell's couldn't steal the election for him.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Six idiots is not a lot.

[Cleita]

24. Because they believe the propaganda that our State Department

has salted the conversation with. The oil companies want back into Venezuela badly.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. They already ARE in, Chavez changed what they had to pay only a few percent.

[Cleita]

62. Yes, and that was enough for them to go after him. Even a little of that percent

that they wouldn't miss, they don't want going to do the social programs that Chavez wanted to take care of the poorest of his people. They still want most of the enchilada and the elite who support them want the rest. I lived in South America, not Venezuela, but I know how our State Department policies protect all American corporate interests in those countries they are exploiting and they don't question what and how they are doing it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. It's the principle of the thing....

Ever see the movie "A Bug's Life"?

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I'm barely fast and smart enough to keep tabs on what is going on my own political backyard.

Fucked if I'm gonna go tell Venezuelan's what to do too.

[valerief]

26. Third Wayers here, I guess. nt

[Mnpaul]

28. Don't look at me

I'm all for the bus driver. That alone makes me smile.

[AverageJoe90]

29. Probably the same reason why some think Obama is a secret Republican.....

and/or is out deliberately to screw us or that both parties are the same, etc.; because they've been brainwashed, that's why.

[Chan790]

39. I don't think one equals the other.

I can know Obama's not a very good Democrat and still believe Maduro won in Venezuela. (Of course, I have three advantages over the average DUer...a strong knowledge of LatAm history, an understanding of LatAm politics...y leo español.)

I hold no illusions the two parties are the same...the parties are the people that comprise them, not the officials they elect. In Obama, we chose the better of two bad choices and still got a crud sandwich.

Godammit, you cannot chastise me. It's like Leslie Gore sang: "It's my and I'll if I want to."

[n2doc]

49. I would say it is more likely they are blind supporters of The Icon

If Obama is in favor of something, they are too. Does that describe you too?

[AverageJoe90]

72. Nope, and I stand by what I said(and TBH, it's probably really true, too.). n/t

[JDPriestly]

30. I want the candidate who gets the most votes to be the winner.

I haven't followed the campaign in Venezuela. But I want the winner to win fair and square. I don't have a preference for one candidate or the other. I don't really know what is going on in Venezuela.

[bvar22]

33. Simple really.

The official Bi-Partisan position is that Chavez is/was illegitimate.
His government, and the populist reforms spreading across Latin America
are demonized by the leadership of both the Republican AND The Democrats.
Hillary and John Kerry are some of the worst Venezuela/Chavez bashers.

Aid and Support for the few remaining Right Wing Death Squad Governments
is the official policy of BOTH the Republican Party AND the Democratic Party.
Colombia (Right Wing Death Squad Human Rights Violator government of the 1%),
in addition to being the 3rd Largest Recipient of US Foreign Aid,
was recently rewarded with a Brand New "Free Trade" agreement by the Obama Administration.

For some here, embracing the transparent, popular social democracies emerging in Latin America
is to Hate Obama.


...and they say bad things about OUR High School,
and, right or wrong, NOBODY gets away with THAT!
A few cruise missiles will teach them to hold their mouths!

USA! USA! USA!

[font size=3]"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."[/font]
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

[Egalitarian Thug]

75. Accurate and succinct as usual. n/t

[TomClash]

35. I would rather have the guy who can drive the bus

Than the guy who would sell it.

[rainy]

36. all the polls said Maduro was winning in a huge landslide

The right as usual accuses the other of what they have done. The right obviously tried to steal it but failed. Now their mad.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. Saw that. People parroting the "Chavez was a dictator" crap.

[Starry Messenger]

40. Capitalism has its useful idiots across the political spectrum.

The ruling classes across the world wouldn't exist without them.

[malaise]

42. Indeed the late polls were as bogus as those for Rmoney

Maduro was leading by 11% - they tried to steal it but failed AGAIN...just like Rmoney.

[emsimon33]

44. Because people are brainwashed by the media

[frylock]

45. to be fair, it's really only two posters spamming the board with their bullshit

[joshcryer]

92. To be fair, I post in Lat. Am where 90%+ of posters don't go.

To be fair, the only reason the posts are making it to the greatest page is people are reccing another posters posts there that are trying to trump up a narrative that Venezuela is descending into riots and chaos.

Most of my posts there do not make it to the greatest page because I'm the evil bad guy who supports, yaknow, counting votes, and investigating fraud, radical concepts, that.

I apologize if my posts to the fly by nighters who rarely even come to that forum are making it into the larger DU space as a whole. I have been posting on Lat. Am. for years.

[Ken Burch]

110. They already counted the votes. If Capriles had won by the margin Maduro won by

You'd be telling everybody to "get over it"-and you'd be claiming that the Left should actually be happy about the victory of the more conservative candidate.

[joshcryer]

116. No I would not.

And if Maduro won by that margin they would've done a recount already.

It looks like Capriles won though and is getting the recount he requested!

[Ken Burch]

118. You know it won't change anything, though.

Venezuelans don't WANT a swing to the right. Maduro's margin fell solely because he was a shitty campaigner...they didn't see any advantages to kissing corporate ass.

[whistler162]

50. Okay... getting a little desperate there aren't you!

You know they are without question legitimate how? Given the closeness and they way the Venezuelan government mishandled the after election, going from a call for a recount to a message of the election was correct in a short space of time. If you don't want another Honduras then you should support a recount!

[socialist_n_TN]

55. Didn't Jimmy Carter call Venezuelan elections the fairest in the world?

nm

[grantcart]

60. Yes he did.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/04/20134146504879826.html

[KoKo]

64. Well then...so Much the better that John Kerry says "Need for Recount!"

Last edited Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

After all...don't WE ALL Remember when John Kerry called for Recount over "Bush vs. Kerry." Just like he supported the Recount for "Bush vs. Gore."

[Egalitarian Thug]

83. What an inconvenient memory you have there. n/t

[joshcryer]

91. The Carter Centers report on the 2012 elections is not favorable.

And I expect their 2013 report will be even less favorable.

[tritsofme]

53. Yes, how dare everyone not fall in line behind Dear Leader's handpicked successor!

Are 49+% of Venezuelans just right wing nuts too?

[santamargarita]

54. Our government assholes want a recount so that

tells me they elected the best person for the job.
It's that same goddamn bunch of Bush suckers in Florida. They can't stand seeing good things given to the people-they want that money and oil for their own greedy selves!
And see the people suffer in poverty the same way they would like to see our poor suffer.

[TransitJohn]

57. Same reason the Top 10 Conservative Idiots went away.

eom

[KoKo]

63. Some of us have Wondered about that...and some have asked...

but..."It's Dead"...we are told.. Not in that language...but to the Same Effect on our Quetion.

[msanthrope]

73. Care to expand? I'm intrigued, and want to understand the connection you are making. nt

[Doctor_J]

66. a lot of it is because Obama is calling for the overthrow

A large faction of du would hop on board with genocide if the president declared his support for it.

[Puglover]

68. I honestly wonder about that.

[KoKo]

74. I think it grows less. DU has a higher level of Understanding

and Ability to Inform that maybe we think.

But the "drift in the last 6 years" does lead one to believe that there is an overwhelming "Public Relations Campaign" that is more important than...remembering the Dems of the "New Deal."

So it's a battle. But...Soldiers for TRUTH and RIGHTS for those "Left Behind" will eventually win the Hearts and Minds....or they wouldn't be here ...unless they are Paid. and...the paid...I hope will learn from this experience... My Hope...anyway.... I'm always hopeful...what else can I say.

[RedCappedBandit]

69. They think american imperialism is a conspiracy theory?

It's pure ignorance.

[KoKo]

77. I wish that I had an Answer to your Post...

After the last six years I'd say...that something has changed...

And, that the "Change" is the problem. It was a "Different View" just as those of us who saw Clinton as the "Hope from Arkansas."

And...what went on after that.

But it may have to do with Corporate Money...and folks feeding off that on K-Street. It may have to do with a lot of things...along with Supreme Court's Decision on Citizens United...it may be that FDR Dems are Weak and Out of Touch with the American Spirit.

The old ways. Probably that all and more that can't be expressed ...yet.

[grahamhgreen]

79. Uhhhh, cuz they get paid to post?????

SEE:

I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022170866

[laborinvain]

85. That post is not credible

if you want to read one that is, search for the "HB Gary email that should concern us all". it was posted at Kos.

[grahamhgreen]

104. Whatever you say, 26 posts!

[hepkat]

86. socialism has been good for Venzula

All elections have issues. I have no doubt that the guy who won would have won a perfect election.

Socialism is good.

[Recursion]

88. How can so many people confuse discomfort with Chavismo with wanting a right wing takeover? (nt)

[TheKentuckian]

105. History. The influence of money. Staring down the downside of capitalism and its insatiable hunger

[Ken Burch]

115. Uh...because we remember what "discomfort" with the Sandinistas, Allende, Bosch and Arbenz led to?

that record makes it hard to trust the motives of the "discomfited".

[idwiyo]

93. K&R

[LWolf]

95. Good question. nt

[killbotfactory]

97. propaganda works. nt

[polly7]

100. Not always.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110813392

[HughBeaumont]

98. Well hey . . .

. . . progressives apparently support race-to-the-bottom Pure Capitalism now and you're a dirty xenophobe if you don't, so really, nothing surprises me. Hey, let's learn NOTHING from 60s-90s history! THIS will all work itself out!

[Jakes Progress]

101. Easy. They are not progressive.

They are here, not because of principle, but because of personality.

[Hugabear]

106. Same reason so many people on this board accused Chavez of being a dictator

Even though he was elected fair & square every time.

Some people only like democracy if it turns out the way that THEY want.

[sabrina 1]

114. It really is just a few. The same few you will notice who try to excuse cuts to social programs, who

tend to be around defending every right wing turn our party makes.

I don't know why they are here, but they are and I guess it's best to know about the effort to destroy all the progress made in Latin America over the past decade away from Western Backed dictators who destroyed their countries. I'm happy to see trials, a bit late, of those war criminals and it gives me hope that even 40 or 50 years later, justice can still be done.

I remember a time, not so long ago, when you would not find a single defender of the Venezuelan coup on a Democratic forum. They started infiltrating around 2004.

If Venezuela did not have oil, no one in the US would care one bit about them. Same old story.

[roody]

108. Because they are not progressive. eom

[Rex]

119. Because they don't know anything about the political parties involved?

You know how that goes around here...