Celebrate with me (and EFerrari) the irony of John Kerry demanding a full recount

[KamaAina]

In Venezuela.

On behalf of the right-wing tool of the corporate oligarchy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/kerry-wont-recognize-chavezs-successor-as-winner-of-venezuelan-election-urges-recount/2013/04/17/7db6f028-a76d-11e2-9e1c-bb0fb0c2edd9_story.html

The Obama administration is refusing to recognize Venezuelan President-elect Nicolas Maduro and says a recount of this week’s election should occur.

Testifying before Congress, Secretary of State John Kerry backed the call by opposition leader Henrique Capriles for the vote count of Sunday’s presidential election to be re-examined.

Venezuela’s National Electoral Council says Maduro won by 262,000 votes out of 14.9 million cast.

But asked directly at a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing Wednesday if he recognized Maduro as the winner, Kerry wouldn’t say yes or no.

[riqster]

1. That asshole

I have never forgiven him for caving before the facts were known.

[forestpath]

8. +1000

[ProSense]

9. Well, it's a good thing that "asshole" didn't become President. n/t

[riqster]

16. Better the asshole than the shrub nt

[ProSense]

23. The "asshole" would be better than the one now in office?

Opportunistic bullshit.

[truebrit71]

34. Nope...

...they're both capitulating "assholes" which is sort of the point, no?

[riqster]

36. John Kerry is an asshole for not keeping his promise to us in 2004

He promised us to "count every vote". But in a few short hours, he said "fuck it, who cares" and conceded.

Is it opportunistic to be pissed off at someone who sticks a shiv in your back? I don't think so.

[blm]

54. Slowest concession in US history. BTW - blame Ohio recount rules

and the Dems in Ohio who allowed GOP to muscle through their version of rules for recount in the years before 2004 election.

[riqster]

58. Really? Gore took a lot longer and vigorously contested the election in 2000.

Kerry shriveled up in a matter of hours.

[ProSense]

65. Gore actually called Bush and conceded 13 hours earlier than Kerry

Election Day, 10 p.m.

Networks retract projection that Gore wins Florida; state reverts to too close to call.

Nov. 8, 2:20 a.m.

Gore calls Bush to concede after networks report the governor leads by 50,000 votes in Florida. Networks project Bush to be the winner in Florida.

Nov. 8, 3:30 a.m.
Gore calls Bush back to retract his concession, after receiving reports that the vote difference in Florida is less than 1,000. Networks retract projection that Bush wins Florida; state reverts to too close to call.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/c2k/amazing_race/timeline.html

So with 87,000 votes less than Kerry to make up, Gore conceded. It wasn't until the news came in that he was only behine 1,000 votes that Gore retracted his concession.

[riqster]

66. Gore responded to input. A key difference.

The Kerry camp did not respond to input. Thus his effective concession was much faster, and certainly not the slowest in history.

[ProSense]

67. You were wrong.

"Gore responded to input. A key difference. The Kerry camp did not respond to input. Thus his effective concession was much faster, and certainly not the slowest in history."

Gore conceded and then responded to being 1,000 votes short . That's a hell of a lot less than 137,000 votes (Gore conceded believing he was 50,000 votes short). Kerry conceded 13 hours later than that with a 137,000 vote deficit.

[riqster]

70. I was on the ground that night in Ohio

I and others were pleading with the Kerry staff to not concede. They ignored us.

Basically, I know one whole helluva lot about that scene, and nobody who wasn't in the belly of the beast that night with us knows damn-all about it by comparison.

Continue worshipping Teh Kerrie if you like. I know better.

[blm]

91. Blame yourselves, riq - you blew it in the years before election day when

Ohio Dems and McAuliffe's DNC let the GOP control every aspect of the vote count in that state. You just can't admit it.

[blm]

90. Baloney - Kerry responded to the FACT that by Ohio recount rules there

would be a recount but ONLY by Ohio rules crafted to favor the GOP. OHIO DEMS and McAuliffe's DNC lost Ohio in the 4 years before election day.

You have just become comfortable with the MYTH that it was all Kerry's fault.

[blm]

89. You're Wrong - Gore conceded then UNconceded when the numbers changed.

And he conceded when there was only a 50,000 vote difference. Kerry conceded the next day when he couldn't make up 150,000 vote difference.

Why do you need to rewrite history to make your case?

Does it make you feel better to believe a myth?

[YvonneCa]

118. Conyers Report PDF. Instead of re-arguing this over and over, I wish...

...people would actually read the report about the recount in 2004. Here is the online version:


http://www.iwantmyvote.com/lib/downloads/references/house_judiciary/final_status_report.pdf

I agree with blm completely that it was NOT an early concession AND that there was a recount ordered by the Greens and Libertarians, but that Ohio rules and previous practices hampered it actually finishing that recount.

I would guess...only me guessing...that Kerry and his people knew what they were up against in the courts in Ohio.

[Slit Skirt]

97. yep and he left us and went on vacation

knowing damn well there was something wrong with the counting of votes

[Phlem]

47. jeebus

I think he meant Bush = shrub

Take a breath dude.

-p

[Marr]

53. How is this about Obama?

?

[AnnieK401]

68. It's not, of course.

but some people will somehow link Obama with everything, including their hangnail.

[riqster]

74. That's where my hangnail came from?

Damn the man!

[whathehell]

84. I do believe she said "the shrub"

not the one now in office.

[hfojvt]

117. presumably if Kerry had won in 2004

then the one now in office, who gets attacked at least as much as Kerry, would not have been elected in 2008.

And we would all live happily ever after.

[whathehell]

123. Yeah...okay...uh huh.

Have no idea what you are saying.

[whathehell]

85. Agreed....

Not that I like him pushing his agenda on Venezuela...None of their effing business anyway.

[robinlynne]

103. all he needed was to count the votes. would have been president.

[frylock]

46. word

[SleeplessinSoCal]

49. That "asshole" is who you prefered as POTUS. Please think before posting in anger.

[riqster]

59. I have had ample time for thought

And he was my choice for Prexy, and he would have been better than Bush The Dumber.

But people in Ohio knew the fix was in, and nobody in the Kerry camp wanted to hear it, no matter the evidence we presented. He sold us out so as to look "statesmanlike" and "not a Soreloserman".

[rhett o rick]

94. I still have lots of anger. For some reason, I suspect that it was

selfish, he did not stand up for the 99%. I guess he decided that he would be better off if he bowed before the Bush Crime Family.
To the 1% it's just a game and he didnt want to piss off the oligarch overlords. He betrayed us and we suffered greatly for it.

[Orrex]

60. On the bright side, at least we didn't wind up with VP Edwards

Hard to do better than Cheney when you're aiming for raw, unabashed evil, but Edwards' smarmy presence wouldn't have done the Democrats any favors either.


Not much of a bright side anyway, now that I think of it...

[riqster]

61. Edwards would at least not have shot his mistresses in the face

[YvonneCa]

119. He knew the ...

...facts. http://www.iwantmyvote.com/lib/downloads/references/house_judiciary/final_status_report.pdf

[Blue Owl]

2. Oh God not this shit again

[undeterred]

3. He didn't have the nerve in 2004 and he knows it was stolen.

He knows now and he knew it then.

[byeya]

13. You got that right!

[Mnemosyne]

4. No words. Thanks KamaAina. wow nt

[suffragette]

5. I miss EFerrari's voice on DU

If you are in contact, please tell her I said hello."

And yes, the irony is strong here.

[formercia]

18. Me too.

I had been wondering where she had gone.

Say Hello for me too.

[me b zola]

32. I miss her presence here

Definitely a dark mark on this place for the manner in which she was treated and run off. Please come back. Please.

[KamaAina]

44. Run off? What happened?

Do I really want to know?

[Renew Deal]

55. Me too

Where is she?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Agreed. But, where is EFerrari...I miss her?

[madfloridian]

26. She's on Twitter. Link

https://twitter.com/48thAve

And still speaking out.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Thanks, MadFloridian. She is/was one of the best of DU.

[whathehell]

86. What happened to her?

I thought I'd just read a post of hers not long ago.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

96. I don't know.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

37. Thank you so much!

An important DU voice that I have been missing terribly.

[KamaAina]

45. I yoinked that from her Facebook feed

[ProSense]

7. Where is the

"irony"?

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2886589

[Warren Stupidity]

19. its right over your head, look up.

[ProSense]

21. Oh please,

this is just more opportunistic bullshit.

[truebrit71]

25. Not really...

...but you don't get paid to say good things about Kerry...

[ProSense]

28. Yes,

"Not really... ...but you don't get paid to say good things about Kerry..."

...really: http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2886589

I beginning to believe some people make a living being assholes.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

48. Nice retro info dump.

I prefer your current posting style though. The unbridled narcissism of the wall-o-links - all leading to your posts - is spectacular.

[OnyxCollie]

40. !

True altruism is dead.

[LooseWilly]

52. Opportunistic on whose part?

Kerry should have challenged Bush on the vote counts in 2004. There were assloads of irregularities in Ohio.

Instead, he decided it was "best for the country" to let the official tally stand.

Now, in Venezuela, he decides that pushing for a recount (which might also destabilize the country) is the right thing to do suddenly?

If you don't see the irony you're just being willfully blind.

Logically looking at the behavior... Kerry either bows always to the interests of the right-wing candidate in elections (bowed to Bush despite irregularities, and won't bow for Capriles despite a lack of any real evidence of irregularities)... or Kerry supports destabilization of Venezuela (wouldn't push for a recount supposedly for fear of creating undue chaos in the US following 2004 vote irregularities... but has no problem with the potential for undue chaos in Venezuela).

Unfortunately, despite the fact that I rather like Kerry... I think you are right. This is some opportunistic bullshit- on the part of Kerry and the entire Obama administration for mucking around like this.

(I will acknowledge though that this isn't anything new... it's just yet another extension of a tradition of opportunistic bullshit US policy.)

[hootinholler]

30. Actually it is in post 7 as well

[alp227]

38. Not similar scenarios.

Kerry did not really demand a NATIONWIDE recount much less one in Ohio!

[forestpath]

10. Why would any country pay attention to the "do as we say not as we do" U.S.

[treestar]

11. Different countries with different standards

They don't say why, though, so there's no reason to jump on this without knowing why Kerry doesn't believe their result.

[joeybee12]

12. This country lost any moral high road in overseeing elections after 2000...nt

[riqster]

15. ^This^

[proverbialwisdom]

105. +2

[Autumn]

14. I sure would like a couple of recounts here too.

Maybe John Kerry could demand them.

[n2doc]

17. Well, he probably would have gone along with a recount in 04

So long as he was winning by a tiny amount. Only fair, right? Wouldn't want to be seen as a sore winner, now.






And in all seriousness, had Capriles won by the same margin does anyone believe that we would not be falling over ourselves right now to offer congratulations and military aid?

[formercia]

20. Meet the new Boss at State.

Pretty much the same as the old Boss.

The word 'Hope' leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Fuddnik]

42. Is he plotting the Honduras treatment yet?

Or is he busy attending Bob Perry's funeral?

[PufPuf23]

22. My respect for John Kerry drops another notch.

I miss EFerrari too.

[Dawson Leery]

24. He couldn't call for a recount in 2004.

Weak.

[RC]

83. He couldn't call for a recount in 2004,

because he caved before the votes were all counted - The day after the election.

[truebrit71]

27. Unbelievable...

[WinkyDink]

29. Seriously, there are NO words to express the magnitude of our national chutzpah.

[malaise]

31. He didn't even demand one in Ohio

Fuck that

[Zorra]

35. Nice catch! nt

[RevStPatrick]

39. Fuck him.

Fucking hypocrite.
Douchebag gave up without a fight.

[Beacool]

41. You are all cursing out the wrong person.

Last edited Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Kerry, as well as Hillary, enact the policies that emanate from the WH. It has been said since 2009 that this WH has a much tighter control over foreign policy than previous ones. Therefore, Kerry is only doing what Obama wants him to do.

[Fuddnik]

43. Kick and Rec!

[SleeplessinSoCal]

50. asked directly at a hearing Wednesday if he recognized Maduro, Kerry wouldn't say yes or no

Or the exact quote: "But asked directly at a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing Wednesday if he recognized Maduro as the winner, Kerry wouldn’t say yes or no."

[GeorgeGist]

51. Botox has its downside.

[NYC Liberal]

56. Oh goodie! A Kerry-bashing thread. It's been a while.

[KamaAina]

62. Not bashing

merely calling him out on the hypocrisy.

For the record, I had hoped he'd make a better SoS than Susan Rice; my main concern, which proved unfounded, was that Scott "Code" Brown would waltz in and get back into the Senate.

[NYC Liberal]

75. Read the replies, which definitely are hateful bashing.

[KamaAina]

79. Point taken

but I certainly did not mean to elicit them. I'm just Pandora opening the box.

[Bobbie Jo]

87. Agreed.

Some posters would call this "criticism."

Talk about the dumbed-down version.

Criticism no longer has to be constructive, nor accurate here anymore. Let's just do what feeeeeels goooooood!

[Cha]

77. It's beyond bashing. It's ugly. But, that's to be expected. n/m

[ProSense]

63. Seriously,

"Oh goodie! A Kerry-bashing thread. It's been a while."

...I miss the "we need Kerry in the Senate" threads. LOL!

What "bashing"? All I see is constructive criticism.

"asshole" "Fuck him." "Fucking hypocrite." "Douchebag" "Botox has its downside."

Makes me proud to be a Democrat!

[sabrina 1]

57. How very sad. I remember signing a petition that went to Kerry asking him to oppose Bush's policies

towards Venezuela and Latin America in general. We were confident he would join other Democrats at that time in denouncing the US backed coup against a democratically elected Latin American president.

I wondered why he never really responded, or used those old crimes against Latin American leaders, (now being prosecuted thankfully in Latin American countries).

More and more it appears the US has policies and NO ONE is going to change them. We want control of everyone's oil and if you don't hand it over, no democrat or republican president is going to change that policy. Good to know, actually.

It's Congress we need to work on now.

[librechik]

64. did I already sigh here?

guess not. Sigh.

[struggle4progress]

69. 50.7% to 49.1% seems a pretty thin margin

[Go Vols]

71. Maduro said he’d accept the full vote recount

But not because the world police/USA says so.

http://world.time.com/2013/04/15/venezuelas-election-even-if-nicolas-maduro-won-he-lost/

[riqster]

76. He had said so right after the results were announced IIRC nt

[hifiguy]

72. Some people have no sense of irony.

You'd think Kerry would have a little more concern about the integrity of the US electoral system given how he was railroaded in 2004.

The mind shrivels.

[HiPointDem]

73. +1. "kerry wouldn't say yes or no" of course not. no representative of the us will ever

recognize any associate of chavez as legitimate.

[TrollBuster9090]

81. Or any OTHER South/Central American government to the left of the Somoza Regime, for that matter.

Chavez was just one example. Let's not forget the narrative: In order for the USA to be prosperous, all South and Central American countries MUST be ruled by ultra-right-wing dictators who merely supply raw resources and cheap labor to the U.S. industrial machine.

[TrollBuster9090]

78. Haha! Well, in fairness to Kerry and everybody else...

It would have HELPED if we'd had a GIGANTIC TRADING PARTNER, who had the power to either pump trillions of dollars in trade INTO the economy, or WITHHOLD trillions of dollars as trade sanctions depending on whether they were satisfied with the integrity of the election or not.

This is a painful example, I know,...but for example:

If China had said "Just a minute. We know Kerry gave a concession speech, and Bush gave a victory speech...but we're not prepared to accept the Bush Administration as the leader of the USA UNTIL you have a full, nation wide recount; and do a full, impartial judicial investigation into allegations of vote rigging in Ohio. Until then...we refuse to trade with the United States."

If China (or somebody else) had said that, I have no doubt that President Kerry would have just finished his second term a few months ago.

Yeah, I know there would have been a lot of faux outrage about China (or somebody else) interfering in our domestic affairs, but with a trillion dollars in trade at stake, they'd have found some way to make it happen, and make it look like it was something WE meant to do ANYWAY. Yeah..that's it, that's the ticket. We did a recount because WE were concerned about the integrity of our own election, and not because dumb old China and the European Union were concerned about it.

[xiamiam]

80. that's when i came here to du..seems like a million years ago

in hindsight...I was Pollyanna with rose colored glasses...now, i'm a cynical senior wearing purple with a cane and an attitude...you're right, its difficult to wrap your head around

[midnight]

82. K&R

[JonLP24]

88. 0-6 sweep on the alert results

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

What's with the hateful anti-Kerry stuff in this thread? Isn't this "DEMOCRATIC" underground? More like Free Republic.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:24 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alerter is clearly ignorant of the history and larger context here.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I agree with the thread. K
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: c'mon -now mere criticism of a Dem is worthy of an alert?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[KamaAina]

92. It is indeed "DEMOCRATIC" Underground.

That's why many of us were surprised when candidate Kerry did not demand a recount in 2004 (*cough*Ohio*cough*) and were flabbergasted when SoS Kerry did demand one, in a foreign country, on behalf of the corporatist candidate.

Thank you, jurors. You got this one right.

[YvonneCa]

120. ...

...FYI. http://www.iwantmyvote.com/lib/downloads/references/house_judiciary/final_status_report.pdf

[AngryOldDem]

121. Good decision.

Kerry's refusal to challenge 2004 is well worthy of criticism, even after all these years. The theft of Ohio was so blatant in and of itself, which is why a lot of us are still angry at and disappointed in Kerry.

I was a poll runner for the Kerry campaign in Dayton in 2004. I will always remember walking into the HQ around 5 p.m. election night and being told by workers there -- who had been in contact with the state campaign HQ -- that Kerry had Ohio in the bag. And he did -- until all shenanigans started.

A lot of us felt betrayed by his cave in. When that kind of stuff happens, you call them on it, even if it means stopping the process. The Republic won't crumble because election results are delayed by a few weeks (or more). And who knows combine 2004 with 2000, and who knows what would have happened if Kerry had chosen to do the right thing?

Pointless to carry on about it now, though.

[Cal Carpenter]

93. Oh good god flash me back to what...almost 10 years ago?

How horribly cynical and appropriate a thread.

I won't say what I am really thinking about Kerry.

I will go have a second cocktail before dinner though.

[MisterP]

98. he can't have all of us tased!

[zeeland]

99. Typical Kerry.

His campaign was a fraud. My donation made just before the timeline expired
For the government to match dollar for dollar was double billed causing me to bounce
checks. It wasn't an isolated incident I found out later. Yet, when I question his
SOS nomination on DU, the outrage was huge. Kerry is an insulated, pompous,
filthy rich gasbag.

[Ganja Ninja]

100. It's not just John Kerry's policy, remember he who he works for.

This is just one example among many of the disconnect between the "Democrat" party and the Democratic base. But don't get crazy and vote for a third party because that would be stupid or so we're told.

[NoMoreWarNow]

101. yep. what a disgrace of a govt we have

[Generic Other]

102. And it is our own history of honest elections

that gives us the right to point fingers at others? Sheesh!

[malthaussen]

104. We ridicule the GOP for being unaware of irony.

Isn't that ironic?

-- Mal

[Beacool]

106. I still think that the anger at Kerry is misplaced.

A SOS enacts policy. He doesn't set it. That's up to the president.

Why so much anger at Kerry? He is just doing his job, not stating his personal opinion. I have no strong feelings one way or another for the man, but the anger at him seems out of place.

Condemn US foreign policy all you want, but why the personal attacks?

[flamingdem]

107. I blame Hillary. I like her but not in Latin America policy

She's been terrible and had a grudge against Chavez and permitted or at least did not react forcefully when the president of Honduras was overthrown. And he was a friend of Chavez. She is not able to see the aspirations of the people of the area.

[Beacool]

108. So, it's always a Clinton's fault even when they are not in office?

Please, this idealization of Chavez is also misplaced. I know that some of you think that he's great, to others he was just a Castro wannabe.

As for Honduras, once again it bears repeating, a SOS enacts the president's policies.

[flamingdem]

109. You are making a good point

I think both Obama and Hillary are weak on Latin America but I'm more likely to give Obama a pass because Hillary was given power in that area and her brother is married to a right wing Cuban American lawyer who apparently has influenced her.

The policy in Honduras flowed from Cuba policy. The Cuban American congress members were involved and went to Honduras. They know how to insert themselves and their ranks include human rights abusers like Otto Reich. Sadly, Kerry is being forced to continue these dated policies that are not in the best interests of the people of the region, to say the least.

[Beacool]

111. I don't know. I'll have to think over this.

I travel to Latin America often and the left leaning presidents are not as good for their countries as some here think that they are. Infrastructures are failing, power goes on and off, etc. Granted that some are more sophisticated countries than others. For example, Argentina is at a different level than some of the poorer nations. Even there, there are always massive demonstrations against Kirchner. I was there last September and will be there again by the end of August. The middle class is being financially squeezed to death. People are very dissatisfied.

[flamingdem]

113. I am not that up on Argentina

Cuba yes. I will go along with not assuming that left leaning governments solve everything. What is outstanding are the human rights abuses in Honduras, to me, that are really the fault of the US not stopping aid, they have a base to protect..

There are lots of articles posted by Judy Lynne in the Latin America forum on Honduras as well as Colombia. Each is
more horrifying than the last especially violence against journalists and trade union leaders and teachers.

[Beacool]

115. OK, I'll take a look.

[Gman]

110. Words totally and completely fail me

Just smh

[Taverner]

112. I had no idea how much of a coward Kerry was until 2006

When he refused to fight, I knew this was a man who had no interest in being a public servant

[flamingdem]

114. I thought we might benefit from his "liberal" ideas

but so far it looks like more of the same.. funny to think of a war hero as a coward and I have to wonder why.

[Taverner]

116. When he was a war hero, he had nothing to lose

Now that he has everything to lose, he works for "the man" he once railed at

[KamaAina]

122. I and many others figured it out in 2004