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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:32 AM Apr 2013

Some of these USA-flogging threads have me thinking: I've been to a lot of countries

I've been in a lot of countries as a tourist, as a Marine, and now as a spouse of a Foreign Service Officer. I am used to having to debunk the jingoistic views of my friends on the right ("They'll greet us with flowers!&quot , but I'm surprised that a lot of people on our side of the political spectrum seem to be just as wrong about how the US is perceived in the world.

The Pew Global Attitudes Project is a good place to start: we're fairly popular in most regions, less so in the Middle East (but then again no country is very popular in the Middle East). People in general more or less like the US, and like Americans ourselves more than our government (when is that not true?). Opinions are roughly split on our uses of the military; the invasion of Iraq is largely disapproved of but several other operations (Libya, Afghanistan, Kosovo, the Korean DMZ) are in neutral to positive territory. Strikes in Pakistan are largely unpopular, whereas for Yemen the world basically goes "meh".

There simply is not this global people's movement to "Stop the USA", mostly because we aren't particularly seen as bent on taking over the world. We're as globally popular as any superpower has been.

Nothing's as simple as the Chomskyites of the world seem to want to think it is.

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Some of these USA-flogging threads have me thinking: I've been to a lot of countries (Original Post) Recursion Apr 2013 OP
The US is seen as pretty predictable pipoman Apr 2013 #1
Chomsky wishes it were true leftynyc Apr 2013 #2
"We're as globally popular as any superpower has been." Tom Rinaldo Apr 2013 #3
Have lived both in Europe and Asia BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #4
"mostly harmless"?! WinkyDink Apr 2013 #6
No, actually, they think we walk around with knives between our teeth BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #7
Good point about Latin America Recursion Apr 2013 #28
lol on "we just want to sell you stuff" uponit7771 Apr 2013 #33
"Most" countries have never experienced a US drone attack BlueStreak Apr 2013 #35
Those who hate us REALLY hate us. tblue Apr 2013 #53
That says more about the snooty chauvinism of the French landlady geek tragedy Apr 2013 #9
that reminds me... actslikeacarrot Apr 2013 #14
Or the fact that we call ourselves "Americans." geek tragedy Apr 2013 #18
Just had that discussion on another board. kiva Apr 2013 #41
United Statesian would conflict with La Republique de Los Estados de Mexico. ieoeja Apr 2013 #59
"American" has meant "from the United States" since there's been a US. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #60
Whether it's chauvinism or not, it's a widespread perception BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #16
Well, I would hardly put the French in the place of all people geek tragedy Apr 2013 #25
I was telling a coworker from overseas about my family getting electricty and indoor plumbing ... ieoeja Apr 2013 #61
Mostly harmless ... except when we slaughter tens of thousands of innocents needlessly Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #34
WE NEVUR DO THAT!! YOU MUST BE A CHOMPSKY FANBOI bobduca Apr 2013 #40
Teh stoopid cannot be hidden from the rest of the world. nt valerief Apr 2013 #51
Push Poll. salib Apr 2013 #5
I don't get it. tblue Apr 2013 #55
LOL @ the thought of anything Chomsky being simplistic n/t Cal Carpenter Apr 2013 #8
Chomsky is very simplistic and reductive in his narratives. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #11
Geek tragedy is very simplistic and reductive in his narratives. Cal Carpenter Apr 2013 #17
That's kinda what I was thinking. Hassin Bin Sober Apr 2013 #19
Care to provide an example where Chomsky doesn't place geek tragedy Apr 2013 #20
But But Amorphous Western Capitalist Hegemony is your favorite! bobduca Apr 2013 #38
Sure, if you share his cartoonish view that the United States geek tragedy Apr 2013 #44
Yep. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #29
do you have something to back up that line about bin Laden? yurbud Apr 2013 #37
Why, yes, I do. Two links. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #43
where in there does it say that bin Laden was simply a political leader? yurbud Apr 2013 #46
He falsely described it as a "political assassination." geek tragedy Apr 2013 #49
Chomsky's work in computational theory is subtle Recursion Apr 2013 #27
Chomsky has been flogging a one-stringed banjo for 40 years. Throd Apr 2013 #36
so declaims Throd, son of Krodd bobduca Apr 2013 #39
Chomsky reminds me of Sean Hannity Throd Apr 2013 #45
And yet his treatment of semiotics is SO brilliant and subtle Recursion Apr 2013 #57
"Chomskyites" Myrina Apr 2013 #10
it's amazing that people come here and do this, and think anyone is fooled or that yurbud Apr 2013 #47
"They love us, let the missiles fly!" n/t whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #12
Thanks for the perspective! randome Apr 2013 #13
When you were surprised by "a lot of people on our side," did you encounter them on the Internet? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #15
More of them online than IRL, true Recursion Apr 2013 #26
"Chomskyites" makes me think you are misrepresenting things Enrique Apr 2013 #21
Oh come off it. "Chomskyites" was snark Recursion Apr 2013 #24
So, As The Spouse Of FSO, Do You Support The Covert CIA Drone War? cantbeserious Apr 2013 #22
no more than I supported the invasion of Iraq Recursion Apr 2013 #23
Hooray Drones! bobduca Apr 2013 #42
What a nuanced trestment of one of the classic human dilemmas Recursion Apr 2013 #50
Yeah that old Classic human dilemma... bobduca Apr 2013 #64
Nothing in the world is as simple as humans thinking about it. Coyotl Apr 2013 #30
I traveled a lot in South America back during the cold war. Cleita Apr 2013 #31
Latin America may well be different Recursion Apr 2013 #32
They hated the US government. Beacool Apr 2013 #48
They liked our stuff all right. Cleita Apr 2013 #58
Yes. I lived overseas for a good number of years -- in Europe. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #52
I'm in Vienna right now Recursion Apr 2013 #56
It is amazing what nineteen50 Apr 2013 #54
I don't hate the USA.... Bigmack Apr 2013 #62
Sometimes DU is funny. Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #63
 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
1. The US is seen as pretty predictable
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:43 AM
Apr 2013

as opposed to Russia, China, India, and other powerful nations...Yeah, the whole 'everybody around the world hates the US' meme is nonsense..

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
2. Chomsky wishes it were true
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:50 AM
Apr 2013

and wishes the rest of us were as brilliantly enlightened as he is

As you can tell, not a fan of his at all.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
3. "We're as globally popular as any superpower has been."
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:51 AM
Apr 2013

That is a pretty good summary I think. It's not a throwaway comment. Most people are at least wary of superpowers because, well, they are super powerful if nothing else, and prone to domineering as a result. But almost everyone expects there to always be one or two or at most three superpowers in the world at any given time, and many have been far more brutal and bent on conquest than the U.S. We actually withdraw most if not all of our army from other countries that we fight wars in once they are concluded.

BeyondGeography

(39,367 posts)
4. Have lived both in Europe and Asia
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:55 AM
Apr 2013

As a student, my French landlady used to chat with me by the fire before dinner the one night a week I ate dinner en famille. Once, she marveled at the fact that Americans could customize their license plates for a fee. This is impossible in France; those plates are coded by department and, after all, who on earth would want to stand out that way?

"Les Americains sont des grands enfants," she concluded.

That's the way many people perceive us. A coddled, immature and mostly harmless country.

BeyondGeography

(39,367 posts)
7. No, actually, they think we walk around with knives between our teeth
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:32 AM
Apr 2013

Latin and South America, different story. But, if you want to understand why the U.S. is more liked than loathed, you only have to look at how quickly the countries we defeated in World War II, and Vietnam for that matter, moved forward in their relationships with us. Part of it is our character (we really just want to sell you stuff), part of it is our geographic remoteness (we are not a physical threat, nor is there any history to suggest it).

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
35. "Most" countries have never experienced a US drone attack
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:43 AM
Apr 2013

"Most" countries have never had the CIA come in to overthrow their government and install a US-friendly dictator (as far as we know).

"Most" countries have never had the US invade their territory militarily to take their valuable resources by force.

It really doesn't give me a lot of comfort knowing that New Zealand is mostly agnostic towards the US.

tblue

(16,350 posts)
53. Those who hate us REALLY hate us.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:24 AM
Apr 2013

You make such a good point. Sure, we can average the opinions of the Afghans with that of the Canadians and get 'meh.' Some people love the USA and some people hate and fear us, and I think it's best not to exacerbate that hate and fear.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
9. That says more about the snooty chauvinism of the French landlady
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:36 AM
Apr 2013

than it does about the US.

We're a bunch of children because we let people choose their own license plate numbers? That's bias, not logic, speaking.

actslikeacarrot

(464 posts)
14. that reminds me...
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:45 AM
Apr 2013

...of some of the people I have met from overseas and even some americans that get downright pissed that we call it soccer when the rest of the world calls it football. Of all the LEGITIMATE complaints about america, they pick that?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
18. Or the fact that we call ourselves "Americans."
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:52 AM
Apr 2013

"Well, that is so arrogant since people from Canada and Brazil live in the Americas too."

Well, yeah, and how many Brazilians go around self-identifying as "American?" And, there really isn't a better option--United Statesian?

kiva

(4,373 posts)
41. Just had that discussion on another board.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:57 AM
Apr 2013

There are people from many countries on the board; mostly the Europeans were grinching about the 'arrogance', and the Canadians, Mexicans, and others from the Americans saying "You don't get it, we're [Canadian, Mexican, Brazilian] so stop trying to say we want to call ourselves Americans!" Funny.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
59. United Statesian would conflict with La Republique de Los Estados de Mexico.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:44 AM
Apr 2013

In fact, I would argue that if citizens of the United States of Mexico are called Mexicans then wouldn't it follow that citizens of the United States of America are Americans?

Besides, we get the name simply because we were first to independance. Sort of like crying "shotgun".

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
60. "American" has meant "from the United States" since there's been a US.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:46 AM
Apr 2013

Protip: the USA is the only country in the Americas with "America" as part of its name.

BeyondGeography

(39,367 posts)
16. Whether it's chauvinism or not, it's a widespread perception
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:48 AM
Apr 2013

When you go overseas as an American, you are assumed to be naive, and naive is not scary to people. More to the point, most of the harm we have inflicted in our existence is on people who were here. When people in the outside world have seen us up close, it hasn't been as an occupier or conquerer. Deep-seated hatred of America exists, but it is not the rule.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
25. Well, I would hardly put the French in the place of all people
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:06 AM
Apr 2013

in the world--the French are notorious for holding that view of Americans. "Oh silly Americans, you will learn ...." etc etc.

When I travel overseas, what I'm used to encountering is that acting respectfully to other people will cause them to view us with respect. If anything, it's that people assume all Americans are wealthy.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
61. I was telling a coworker from overseas about my family getting electricty and indoor plumbing ...
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:47 AM
Apr 2013

... when I was young. He was completely shocked to discover conditions like that exist in the US.


 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
34. Mostly harmless ... except when we slaughter tens of thousands of innocents needlessly
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:42 AM
Apr 2013

or have our corporations inflict their will with an iron fist ... but, yeah, mostly harmless ...

salib

(2,116 posts)
5. Push Poll.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:20 AM
Apr 2013

Silly really.

Let's see, we are to just take as fact:
- There are "USA-flogging threads", common enough to respond to here
- "people on our side of the political spectrum seem to be just as wrong about how the US is perceived in the world" justified by pointing to a link with various levels of popularity/unpopularity for the U.S. Again, how does that poll say anything about how "people on our side" are "just as wrong"? Where is the poll of these people on our side?
- My favorite: "We're as globally popular as any superpower has been." What? How popular were other superpowers? How do you know that you aren't "just as wrong" about that?
- Or my second favorite "no country is very popular in the Middle East." No comment.
- "Chomskyites"? Wow.

tblue

(16,350 posts)
55. I don't get it.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:34 AM
Apr 2013

Strange OP. We are so beloved, let's not even try to address this country's impact on other nations. It's all good.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. Chomsky is very simplistic and reductive in his narratives.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:38 AM
Apr 2013

It all begins and ends with the evils of the US government and its foreign policy. Khmer rouge atrocities? US to blame. Bin Laden? A political leader who was innocent of terrorism victimized by the murderous Obama.

Etc etc etc. In any international conflict or dynamic, he sees the US bogeyman as the principal villain.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
20. Care to provide an example where Chomsky doesn't place
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:54 AM
Apr 2013

the majority of blame for an international crisis or conflict on the United States or some amorphous western capitalist hegemony?

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
38. But But Amorphous Western Capitalist Hegemony is your favorite!
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:53 AM
Apr 2013

I could see how a defender of hegemony might not like Chomksy's "simplifications"

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
44. Sure, if you share his cartoonish view that the United States
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:02 AM
Apr 2013

is the root of all global evil, those who disagree with that faith might seem overly nuanced.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
43. Why, yes, I do. Two links.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:59 AM
Apr 2013
http://www.guernicamag.com/daily/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.

There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.



http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/12/an-interview-with-noam-chomsky-on-obamas-human-rights-record/

In fact, we might ask the same question about the murder of Osama Bin Laden. Notice I use the term “murder”. When heavily armed elite troops capture a suspect, unarmed and defenseless, accompanied by his wives, and then shoot him, kill him, and dump his body into the ocean without an autopsy, that’s shear assassination. Also notice that I said “suspect”. The reason is because of another principle of law, that also goes back to the 13th Century – that a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Before that, he’s a suspect. In the case of Osama Bin Laden, the United States had never formally charged him with 9/11 and part of the reason was that they didn’t know that he was responsible. In fact, eight months after 9/11 and after the most intensive inquiry in history, the FBI explained that it suspected that the 9/11 plot was hatched in Afghanistan, (didn’t mention Bin Laden) and was implemented in the United Arab Emirates, Germany, and of course the United States. That’s eight months after the attack and there’s nothing substantive that they’ve learned since then that does more than increase the suspicion. My own assumption is that the suspicion is almost certainly correct, but there’s a big difference between having a very confident belief and showing someone to be guilty. And even if he’s guilty, he was supposed to be apprehended and brought before a court. That’s British and American law going back eight centuries. He’s not supposed to be murdered and have his body dumped without an autopsy, but support for this is very nearly universal. Actually, I wrote one of the few critical articles on it and my article was bitterly condemned by commentators across the spectrum, including the Left, because the assassination was so obviously just, since we suspected him of committing a crime against us. And that tells you something about the significant, I would say, “moral degeneration” running throughout the whole intellectual class. And yes, Obama has continued this and in some respects extended it, but it hardly comes as a surprise.



So, in Chomsky's world, Osama bin Laden was an "unarmed victim" of an illegal "political assassin' who was murdered by Obama and the US. And Obama is a murderer for ordering armed action against bin Laden. Al Qaeda is the victim, the United States is the aggressor.


Anyone who sympathizes with AQ in its fight with the US is not a rational observer, but operating from their own cartoonish biases.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
46. where in there does it say that bin Laden was simply a political leader?
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:09 AM
Apr 2013

It is not sympathizing with terrorists to talk about international law or why people might be attracted to terrorist groups.

If you don't accurately diagnos a problem, you aren't going to come up with the right cure.

Case in point, Chicago effectively destroyed the structure of the biggest drug dealing gang in town, but gang violence persists new, smaller block by block gangs. So something else is at work besides just the drugs and that one organization.

If you don't factor in blowback, and the grievances that attract people to these groups, you can't cut off their supply of new recruits, which is partly why the drone policy is counterproductive. For every real potential terrorist we kill, we kill a lot of innocents whose relatives now have a reason to be mad at us and more receptive to recruiting by anti-American groups.

The cartoonish, action movie logic is all on the side of the right.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
49. He falsely described it as a "political assassination."
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:15 AM
Apr 2013

Which necessarily assumes that bin Laden was a political figure, not a criminal or quasi-military one engaged in launching violent attacks against the United States with great loss of life.

This is not a fact-based view, but rather a projection of his distasteful sympathy for bin Laden due to their common anti-Americanism.

Chomsky does everything in his power to make sure the world hates Americans.


But, maybe you can help me see how bin Laden was the "victim" of a "political assassination."

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
27. Chomsky's work in computational theory is subtle
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:09 AM
Apr 2013

As is his work in linguistics. I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile the academic Chomsky with the popular Chomsky

Throd

(7,208 posts)
36. Chomsky has been flogging a one-stringed banjo for 40 years.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:44 AM
Apr 2013

Beating that one note song "USA is Eeeeeevul" to death.

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
39. so declaims Throd, son of Krodd
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:55 AM
Apr 2013

CHOMSKY IZ DUM CUZ YOU KNOW USA!!!!11

I for one am convinced. Please don't hit me with that femur-club Throd.

Throd

(7,208 posts)
45. Chomsky reminds me of Sean Hannity
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:04 AM
Apr 2013

Femurs are too cumbersome, I use a tibia.

Actually, Chomsky is very intelligent, which makes him even more disappointing.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
57. And yet his treatment of semiotics is SO brilliant and subtle
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

Like I said, I have trouble reconciling the two Chomskies

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
47. it's amazing that people come here and do this, and think anyone is fooled or that
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:10 AM
Apr 2013

they are making a persuasive argument.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
15. When you were surprised by "a lot of people on our side," did you encounter them on the Internet?
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:46 AM
Apr 2013

Anyone can post on the net. No one checks credentials.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
21. "Chomskyites" makes me think you are misrepresenting things
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:54 AM
Apr 2013

reading your post, I thought, what USA flogging threads is this about? Maybe it's about threads I missed.

Then I saw "Chomskyites" and realized what this is about. It's just defensiveness about criticism of the US.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
23. no more than I supported the invasion of Iraq
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:03 AM
Apr 2013

And I actually invaded, so there you go. We don't always have the luxury of enacting just the policies we like.

Edit: actually the done war is more complex than Iraq. Iraq was a mistake plain and simple; the done program has pros and cons which outweigh them.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
50. What a nuanced trestment of one of the classic human dilemmas
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:16 AM
Apr 2013

You really should write a book or something

bobduca

(1,763 posts)
64. Yeah that old Classic human dilemma...
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:44 PM
Apr 2013

to kill another human being and their entire family without any conceivable fear of repercussion
or not to.

"I want him dead, I want his family dead, I want the first responders, dead." Quote from some unnamed Mob Boss from Central Casting.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
30. Nothing in the world is as simple as humans thinking about it.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:16 AM
Apr 2013

Except maybe the fact that the world does not like the USA's foreign policy.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
31. I traveled a lot in South America back during the cold war.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:23 AM
Apr 2013

Being I could speak Spanish fluently and fit into the population, I found they hated our guts. I hope things have changed since then. Because most Americans are pretty okay, not those sociopaths we often find in power, but the average person even with their baggage of bigotry are really pretty okay.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
48. They hated the US government.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:11 AM
Apr 2013

A government that fully supported, trained (through the School of the Americas) and armed the military regimes that took over several Latin American nations during that time, such as Chile, Argentina and Paraguay.

Otherwise, most people around the world love our pop culture. They love the music, movies, food, etc.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
52. Yes. I lived overseas for a good number of years -- in Europe.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:19 AM
Apr 2013

Americans were very popular in general.

In fact, people were relieved and happy to meet me as an American. I just lived in the economy. We weren't associated with the US government in any way other than our citizenship. We lived in cities and small towns.

But in Austria, some of the NAZI sympathizing types were not as friendly as other Europeans. And I did meet NAZIs in that country. Doesn't mean that there weren't any NAZIs in other countries, but I met them in Austria.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
56. I'm in Vienna right now
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

There has been some scoffing at my German but when I switch to French the eye rolling stops, at least

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
62. I don't hate the USA....
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:49 AM
Apr 2013

... but I think of her like an alcoholic mother.

I love Mom, but I wish she would do better. She's hurting herself and making her kids suffer with her addiction.

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