General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSome of these USA-flogging threads have me thinking: I've been to a lot of countries
I've been in a lot of countries as a tourist, as a Marine, and now as a spouse of a Foreign Service Officer. I am used to having to debunk the jingoistic views of my friends on the right ("They'll greet us with flowers!" , but I'm surprised that a lot of people on our side of the political spectrum seem to be just as wrong about how the US is perceived in the world.
The Pew Global Attitudes Project is a good place to start: we're fairly popular in most regions, less so in the Middle East (but then again no country is very popular in the Middle East). People in general more or less like the US, and like Americans ourselves more than our government (when is that not true?). Opinions are roughly split on our uses of the military; the invasion of Iraq is largely disapproved of but several other operations (Libya, Afghanistan, Kosovo, the Korean DMZ) are in neutral to positive territory. Strikes in Pakistan are largely unpopular, whereas for Yemen the world basically goes "meh".
There simply is not this global people's movement to "Stop the USA", mostly because we aren't particularly seen as bent on taking over the world. We're as globally popular as any superpower has been.
Nothing's as simple as the Chomskyites of the world seem to want to think it is.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)as opposed to Russia, China, India, and other powerful nations...Yeah, the whole 'everybody around the world hates the US' meme is nonsense..
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and wishes the rest of us were as brilliantly enlightened as he is
As you can tell, not a fan of his at all.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)That is a pretty good summary I think. It's not a throwaway comment. Most people are at least wary of superpowers because, well, they are super powerful if nothing else, and prone to domineering as a result. But almost everyone expects there to always be one or two or at most three superpowers in the world at any given time, and many have been far more brutal and bent on conquest than the U.S. We actually withdraw most if not all of our army from other countries that we fight wars in once they are concluded.
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)As a student, my French landlady used to chat with me by the fire before dinner the one night a week I ate dinner en famille. Once, she marveled at the fact that Americans could customize their license plates for a fee. This is impossible in France; those plates are coded by department and, after all, who on earth would want to stand out that way?
"Les Americains sont des grands enfants," she concluded.
That's the way many people perceive us. A coddled, immature and mostly harmless country.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)Latin and South America, different story. But, if you want to understand why the U.S. is more liked than loathed, you only have to look at how quickly the countries we defeated in World War II, and Vietnam for that matter, moved forward in their relationships with us. Part of it is our character (we really just want to sell you stuff), part of it is our geographic remoteness (we are not a physical threat, nor is there any history to suggest it).
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And that is the region I've had the least experience in, too
uponit7771
(90,329 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)"Most" countries have never had the CIA come in to overthrow their government and install a US-friendly dictator (as far as we know).
"Most" countries have never had the US invade their territory militarily to take their valuable resources by force.
It really doesn't give me a lot of comfort knowing that New Zealand is mostly agnostic towards the US.
tblue
(16,350 posts)You make such a good point. Sure, we can average the opinions of the Afghans with that of the Canadians and get 'meh.' Some people love the USA and some people hate and fear us, and I think it's best not to exacerbate that hate and fear.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)than it does about the US.
We're a bunch of children because we let people choose their own license plate numbers? That's bias, not logic, speaking.
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)...of some of the people I have met from overseas and even some americans that get downright pissed that we call it soccer when the rest of the world calls it football. Of all the LEGITIMATE complaints about america, they pick that?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"Well, that is so arrogant since people from Canada and Brazil live in the Americas too."
Well, yeah, and how many Brazilians go around self-identifying as "American?" And, there really isn't a better option--United Statesian?
kiva
(4,373 posts)There are people from many countries on the board; mostly the Europeans were grinching about the 'arrogance', and the Canadians, Mexicans, and others from the Americans saying "You don't get it, we're [Canadian, Mexican, Brazilian] so stop trying to say we want to call ourselves Americans!" Funny.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)In fact, I would argue that if citizens of the United States of Mexico are called Mexicans then wouldn't it follow that citizens of the United States of America are Americans?
Besides, we get the name simply because we were first to independance. Sort of like crying "shotgun".
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Protip: the USA is the only country in the Americas with "America" as part of its name.
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)When you go overseas as an American, you are assumed to be naive, and naive is not scary to people. More to the point, most of the harm we have inflicted in our existence is on people who were here. When people in the outside world have seen us up close, it hasn't been as an occupier or conquerer. Deep-seated hatred of America exists, but it is not the rule.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in the world--the French are notorious for holding that view of Americans. "Oh silly Americans, you will learn ...." etc etc.
When I travel overseas, what I'm used to encountering is that acting respectfully to other people will cause them to view us with respect. If anything, it's that people assume all Americans are wealthy.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)... when I was young. He was completely shocked to discover conditions like that exist in the US.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)or have our corporations inflict their will with an iron fist ... but, yeah, mostly harmless ...
bobduca
(1,763 posts)USA USA USA
valerief
(53,235 posts)salib
(2,116 posts)Silly really.
Let's see, we are to just take as fact:
- There are "USA-flogging threads", common enough to respond to here
- "people on our side of the political spectrum seem to be just as wrong about how the US is perceived in the world" justified by pointing to a link with various levels of popularity/unpopularity for the U.S. Again, how does that poll say anything about how "people on our side" are "just as wrong"? Where is the poll of these people on our side?
- My favorite: "We're as globally popular as any superpower has been." What? How popular were other superpowers? How do you know that you aren't "just as wrong" about that?
- Or my second favorite "no country is very popular in the Middle East." No comment.
- "Chomskyites"? Wow.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Strange OP. We are so beloved, let's not even try to address this country's impact on other nations. It's all good.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It all begins and ends with the evils of the US government and its foreign policy. Khmer rouge atrocities? US to blame. Bin Laden? A political leader who was innocent of terrorism victimized by the murderous Obama.
Etc etc etc. In any international conflict or dynamic, he sees the US bogeyman as the principal villain.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)n/t
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,319 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the majority of blame for an international crisis or conflict on the United States or some amorphous western capitalist hegemony?
bobduca
(1,763 posts)I could see how a defender of hegemony might not like Chomksy's "simplifications"
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is the root of all global evil, those who disagree with that faith might seem overly nuanced.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Ladens confession, but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.
There is also much media discussion of Washingtons anger that Pakistan didnt turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/12/an-interview-with-noam-chomsky-on-obamas-human-rights-record/
So, in Chomsky's world, Osama bin Laden was an "unarmed victim" of an illegal "political assassin' who was murdered by Obama and the US. And Obama is a murderer for ordering armed action against bin Laden. Al Qaeda is the victim, the United States is the aggressor.
Anyone who sympathizes with AQ in its fight with the US is not a rational observer, but operating from their own cartoonish biases.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)It is not sympathizing with terrorists to talk about international law or why people might be attracted to terrorist groups.
If you don't accurately diagnos a problem, you aren't going to come up with the right cure.
Case in point, Chicago effectively destroyed the structure of the biggest drug dealing gang in town, but gang violence persists new, smaller block by block gangs. So something else is at work besides just the drugs and that one organization.
If you don't factor in blowback, and the grievances that attract people to these groups, you can't cut off their supply of new recruits, which is partly why the drone policy is counterproductive. For every real potential terrorist we kill, we kill a lot of innocents whose relatives now have a reason to be mad at us and more receptive to recruiting by anti-American groups.
The cartoonish, action movie logic is all on the side of the right.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Which necessarily assumes that bin Laden was a political figure, not a criminal or quasi-military one engaged in launching violent attacks against the United States with great loss of life.
This is not a fact-based view, but rather a projection of his distasteful sympathy for bin Laden due to their common anti-Americanism.
Chomsky does everything in his power to make sure the world hates Americans.
But, maybe you can help me see how bin Laden was the "victim" of a "political assassination."
Recursion
(56,582 posts)As is his work in linguistics. I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile the academic Chomsky with the popular Chomsky
Throd
(7,208 posts)Beating that one note song "USA is Eeeeeevul" to death.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)CHOMSKY IZ DUM CUZ YOU KNOW USA!!!!11
I for one am convinced. Please don't hit me with that femur-club Throd.
Throd
(7,208 posts)Femurs are too cumbersome, I use a tibia.
Actually, Chomsky is very intelligent, which makes him even more disappointing.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Like I said, I have trouble reconciling the two Chomskies
Myrina
(12,296 posts)... that gives away your thought process, right there.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)they are making a persuasive argument.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Anyone can post on the net. No one checks credentials.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But some in real life.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)reading your post, I thought, what USA flogging threads is this about? Maybe it's about threads I missed.
Then I saw "Chomskyites" and realized what this is about. It's just defensiveness about criticism of the US.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But there are some common themes there.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And I actually invaded, so there you go. We don't always have the luxury of enacting just the policies we like.
Edit: actually the done war is more complex than Iraq. Iraq was a mistake plain and simple; the done program has pros and cons which outweigh them.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Brave brave drones.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You really should write a book or something
bobduca
(1,763 posts)to kill another human being and their entire family without any conceivable fear of repercussion
or not to.
"I want him dead, I want his family dead, I want the first responders, dead." Quote from some unnamed Mob Boss from Central Casting.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Except maybe the fact that the world does not like the USA's foreign policy.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Being I could speak Spanish fluently and fit into the population, I found they hated our guts. I hope things have changed since then. Because most Americans are pretty okay, not those sociopaths we often find in power, but the average person even with their baggage of bigotry are really pretty okay.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's the part of the world I've seen the least of.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)A government that fully supported, trained (through the School of the Americas) and armed the military regimes that took over several Latin American nations during that time, such as Chile, Argentina and Paraguay.
Otherwise, most people around the world love our pop culture. They love the music, movies, food, etc.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)They didn't like us for our arrogance.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Americans were very popular in general.
In fact, people were relieved and happy to meet me as an American. I just lived in the economy. We weren't associated with the US government in any way other than our citizenship. We lived in cities and small towns.
But in Austria, some of the NAZI sympathizing types were not as friendly as other Europeans. And I did meet NAZIs in that country. Doesn't mean that there weren't any NAZIs in other countries, but I met them in Austria.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)There has been some scoffing at my German but when I switch to French the eye rolling stops, at least
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)respect money can buy you and if they don't sell thump them.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)... but I think of her like an alcoholic mother.
I love Mom, but I wish she would do better. She's hurting herself and making her kids suffer with her addiction.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Sometimes, not so much.