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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOur drones do shit like this all over the world every day.
Just saying.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)just asking
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)civilians then where is the call for him to be impeached and prosecuted at the ICC?
The OP is ridiculous hyperbole.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)of children?
What is the purpose? Do YOU know?
Ever read any of the stories about the children how have been blown to bits by our drones?
Ever seen the texts of the lawsuits by parents, loved ones, feeling helpless in the face of the crimes committed against them?
It doesn't diminish us or these terrible tragedies that have occurred here to contemplate the horrors WE are reigning down on innocent populations who are just as valuable as human beings as we are. In fact it enhances us as a society to begin the process of ending our own terror attacks on other human beings, innocent human beings.
Unless of course we are to believe that we are superior beings. That brown people in other countries are maybe, not as valuable, maybe two thirds of a person? One? Bigotry is a sickness of the soul.
What happened today here was a cowardly act of terror against innocent people who in no way deserved it.
What happens in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia are cowardly acts of terror against innocent people who in no way deserve it.
There is no difference, a terrorist act is a terrorist act. Ask the victims. They are more than willing to tell you of their grief but we don't hear them, do we? We ignore them. Why?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)But hey, you think Obama is a war criminal. OK. Fine. It's your opinion, you're free to express it.
So who did you vote for last year?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)human beings, or did you join us in our attempts to stop him?
You didn't answer my last question. You veered off into some kind of claim that Hitler is involved somehow. Did a Pakistani child declare war on the US?
I don't expect an answer. I see you are going to defend and excuse and, well, tell us that Bush was right, that we are at war with the world, we have enemies everywhere which justifies anything we do, no matter how heinous. I could be wrong of course. Airc we Democrats fiercely opposed the killing of human beings by this country based on the lies told in order to try to get our support. We were not fooled.
When was the last time a Pakistani child blew up Americans here? Airc, most of our tragic massacres which appear to be occurring ever more frequentily, have been committed by White Americans. Should we start using drones here? The threats to our security, to our school children appear to be right here. Why are we not droning suspicious looking people and areas here? Wait, I know, we don't want to kill innocent people! What a concept!
I opposed Bush's brutal, illegal policies. I still do. I never believed a word he said. I still don't.
How about you?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)FDR ordered strikes on German ball bearing factories that used hundreds of planes dropping thousands of bombs per day for weeks at a time from high altitude which decreased the accuracy of the bombs but preserved the life of American pilots. He wasn't aiming at the German high command. He wasn't aiming at tanks or men or artillery. He was aiming at ball bearings. Small, tiny orbs of metal. And in the process tens of thousands of civilians died. An entire city was destroyed. And when they finished with that factory they went after another and another and another. They means more civilians died again and again and again.
Obama, in contrast, is using single aircraft firing a single weapon in an effort to hit people our best efforts tell us are the planners and coordinators of attacks similar to the one the OP claims we deserve (we don't). I see no reason to trade that formula for massive aerial bombing campaigns or boots on the ground. Nor do I see any reason to accuse Obama of indiscriminately killing civilians without provocation or a genuine effort to mitigate human suffering. If radical terrorists are as concerned about their families as we are supposed to be for their families then they should stop hiding amongst their families and they should stop deliberately attacking our families.
The drone attacks ordered by the President have incidental civilian casualties. The people he targets aim for civilians as a matter of policy. They're more than welcome to step-out of the shadows and fight military-to-military anytime they want.
So, since you obviously find Obama to be a war criminal -- who did you vote for?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I opposed them, I recall the reports of one of his first drone strikes by a British Journalist, I will never forget the carnage, the frantic mothers almost fighting over children's body parts, unable to identify them but desperate to hold something of what was left of their children. The children were playing when death struck from the sky.
The reporter escaped without injury and lived to record and be a witness to that crime. The world was horrified, but the victims received no recognition in the country that committed the crime. Every democrat I knew at the time fiercely opposed those WMDs being used against innocent civilians. Every democrat I still know still holds on to the principles they had then.
FDR went to war against Hitler, a known villain who was threatening to take over the world. What is your point? Hitler was defeated but not before slaughtering millions of people.
Surely you are not claiming that there is any comparison between a Pakistani child and one of the most notorious monsters in history?
Noted that you have chosen not to respond to a very simple question. So I will assume you approved of Bush's drone policies. You may correct me if I am wrong.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)What's the difference between a Pakistani child and a German child? How is a German child being incinerated or dismembered any less horrendous? The only difference between Hitler and bin Laden are the resources they had at their disposal. Do you think if al Quarts had a modern, industrialized army they wouldn't use it?
Don't ask me what I think of the drone policy, ask President Obama.
All I'm asking is that you take 10 seconds off from your moral high horse to answer a simple question at Democratic Underground -- who did you vote for?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)read the OP? Drones, a policy started by Bush vehemently opposed by most Democrats and still opposed by most Democrats.
To get this insidious question out of the way, I supported and worked for Obama from the first time I heard him speak at the 2004 Democratic Convention through his Senate run and both elections.
What would that have to do with anything btw? Oh, I get it, you think that if people politically support a PERSON they should abandon their morals and ethics if that PERSON acts against them.
And thank you, I am proud of that HIGH HORSE I am on and intend to stay there, vastly preferable to the gutter I would be in if the very principles that caused me to support Obama were to be cast aside simply because I am blinded by loyalty to some one I voted for.
The simple question you refused to answer, did you support Bush when he initiated the drone program and since you brought it up, who did YOU vote for? Bush policies are not Democratic values.
As to your comparison of Hitler to OBL, it is so ridiculous, so off the wall, it would take an entire day to demonstrate the ridiculousness of it. So you want to play a game? It sounds like those lunatic radicals who accuse the US of being Hitler. Regarding the policies of Britain and its allies, including he US, war is evil, which is why no one should ever start one UNLESS it is to defend themselves. Our current Bush wars had nothing to do with defending this country as everyone now knows and most democrats knew right from the beginning.
So you did support the Bush doctrine of 'pre-emptive war then?
I will remain on this high horse. His name is 'Human Rights'. I despise situational ethics. When something is wrong it is wrong regardless.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)and waged a war in Libya with no discernible threat to the US. But I don't consider Obama a war criminal. Apparently you do. Why did you vote in 2012 for someone you consider a war criminal?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)them? I opposed them and still oppose them. Obama promised to end the war in Iraq and to 'scale down' the war in Afganistan in 2008. It was the best offer we had to stop this madness. I didn't hear Romney promising to end any of it. Your question is ridiculous considering the circumstances we were placed in. I supported Obama with enormous enthusiasm in 2008. But with far less enthusiasm and fingers crossed that once he did not have to worry about reelection in 2012, he would feel far more free to end Bush policies here and overseas.
Now either answer the question, or I'm not wasting any more time here.
My principles do not change regardless of who the president is. I would be very worried about myself if they did. And that's who I have to live with, myself, not Bush, not Obama or any other politician.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Spare me your ideological loyalty test. I'm not playing silly games.
You could have sat-out 2012 or voted for a candidate that you didn't consider to be a war criminal. But you voted for a candidate you call a war criminal in all but name only. That kinda cuts your high horse off at the knees. You can complain Romney would not have scaled down the war in Afghanistan but that's pretty weak.
I voted for Obama knowing he had engaged in pre-emptive war and launched hundreds of drone strikes that killed thousands. I voted for him knowing he had ended some Bush-era policies but expanded others and some of those expansions have deadly consequences. I voted for him knowing that as grievous as I thought the war in Iraq was he would not prosecute or even hold a Truth and Reconciliation commission. I voted for him even though dozens of prisoners who cannot be convicted in a military tribunal are being held on his order as too dangerous to release.
And so did you.
In other words -- you're no better than me.
Actually, that makes you worse because you claim his acts are war crimes. I believe that Obama as a person is better than the allegations being slung at him. I think he's plowing ahead trying to make the best choices possible in a bad situation. I do not accuse him of torture and murder. You do. And the best you can do to justify your vote for what you deem torture and murder is to splutter about things not even a part of the OP.
I framed my initial response in the thread in the context that war is brutal. I noted that a single drone firing a single missile trying to kill the commanders of people making dedicated efforts to kill civilians was better than hundreds of bombers dropping thousands of bombs on a city in order to knock out a ball bearing factory. I maintain that position without apology. As horrific as the present war may be it is not anywhere close to the scale the world has suffered with in the past and I believe the President has chosen the policy because it is the one that preserves the most life on both sides of the firing line.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)while exonerating yourself from policies you voted to perpetuate knowing full well what was happening? You're quite the contortionist.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)still oppose the use of drones and still don't defend it, you are upholding your PRINCIPLES rather than altering them because of politics.
IF you supported Bush's use of drones and defended him for and still support the policy and defend it, then you are at least consistent.
But IF you opposed Bush's policies which included the use of drones but now support and/or defend them, then you have what is known as 'situational ethics'. A phenomenon which occurs when a person is willing to forego their principles out of loyalty to someone, a relative, a politician or someone else.
A whole lot of democrats who used to scream and yell over Bush's use of drones, have now either gone silent or are outright defending something they once opposed because of politics.
You decide which of the three represents your position.
Number 1 represents mine.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Crickets? You missed the many comments following that vile personal attack which you find to be excellent and the refusal, speaking of crickets, of this poster to respond to my very simple question. I don't know where you got your crickets from, but you need to go back and read my many responses to a person I should not have wasted a moment on after it became clear his/her lack of ability to abide by community standards here.
Interesting to say the least ...
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Yes, the thread is about Iraqi bombings. Probably sectarian violence...or maybe not.
Regardless, Americans just cannot connect the dots.
You speak very eloquently, but I think few are listening.
Bake
(21,977 posts)Hyperbole much? Sounds like you're saying Boston deserved it.
Just asking.
Bake
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)It targets first responders as a tactic, people that come to help the injured, ambulances, that sort of thing. I suppose he is completely unaware of these missions, it would be remarkable, but maybe. He may not order anything but just has an underling do that sort of thing. the tactic became a favorite of terrorist groups for decades, now we do it.
The authoritative joint study, by Stanford and New York Universities, concludes that men, women and children are being terrorised by the operations 24 hours-a-day.
And the authors lay much of the blame on the use of the double-tap strike where a drone fires one missile and then a second as rescuers try to drag victims from the rubble. One aid agency said they had a six-hour delay before going to the scene.
I hope you can refute the worldwide reporting of our country's use of this tactic. I really do. The death and terror experienced by innocent victims of bombings is horrible when terrorists do it, it is the same when our drones do it. It is not accidental when double tap tactics are employed. It is not worth killing 49 men, women and children for one terrorist as if life was meaningless and disposable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208307/Americas-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-killing-49-people-known-terrorist-Pakistan.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/world/europe/un-panel-to-investigate-rise-in-drone-strikes.html?_r=0
I hate that children die by gun in this country, terrorist bombings anywhere and I hate it when it is done in our name as well. I just can't be as cold as some are, do you hate it as well? I don't think of you as cold. I would like to keep thinking that.
A quick google reveals pages of international reporting on this. I want you to prove them all wrong, for my humanity, I NEED you to, I am not cold enough to not care.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Murder is murder, no matter what the nationality or color of the victim.
Murder is murder, no matter if they were alleged "militants" murdered by the aggressor nation or civilian victims murdered in a revenge attack by stateless terrorists.
They are all just as dead. It's all murder. Any bogus rationale for any attack is of no consequence to the victims.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)not sure why it makes a difference that obama didn't target them specifically.
it sure wouldn't make a difference to me if it was my family member, friend, or neighbor.
i bet it wouldn't to you either, if it was yours.
"TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 - 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 - 881 were civilians, including 176 children. TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228 - 1,362 individuals," according to the Stanford/NYU study.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Unless there were legitimate targets and this is the least damaging means of saving other lives even though some innocents are killed.
Either we voted for a ruthless killer or the idealist we voted for has encountered a grim reality and is doing his best in a world of no easy answers.
elleng
(130,773 posts)Sorry.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Bullshit.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)emulatorloo
(44,072 posts)Gets them the attention and recs they crave.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)but god help the innocent people who are anywhere near one of the "guilty" targets we're aiming for.
Why does it matter if innocent people are killed with no discernable legitimate target nearby, while the innocent people who are killed when we're going for one of our "legitimate targets" are just collateral damage?
it wouldn't have anything to do with the letter after the name of the person in the Oval Office, would it?
Sheesh!
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)with a random terrorist act is fucking dumb.
Carry on.
npk
(3,660 posts)Never let a tragedy go by without inserting that America targets and kills innocent people all over the world. It has almost become a tradition.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Maybe we got the "bad guy" right between the eyes with the drone... but the 5 people who were in line at the wedding reception also got blasted to bits.
The intelligence was flawless. We killed the "bad guy"... and a few others, but never mind THAT.
But you'll carry on as though nothing happened, because for you it didn't.
progressoid
(49,952 posts)It was deliberate.
Regardless, when ours kill innocent civilians, we call it collateral damage. Bad intelligence notwithstanding.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)What an absolute embarrassment your line of reasoning is.
progressoid
(49,952 posts)the difference. So it's different when innocent people get killed by a bomb that is sent by a multi-million dollar targeting system than innocent people killed by random targeting? I wonder if it makes any difference to the victims.
Yes, it's a callous comparison. And, yes, the OP's post is a bit cavalier. Sadly, callous and cavalier seems to reflect the our war mentality lately.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Pathetic.
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)Yes, the US government does target innocent people with drones.
sheshe2
(83,669 posts)Is that a new Bi word here?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We know the numbers, they are being documented, they are being witnessed for history. The victims are no less victims than those who were killed today. No less innocent. Unless you think babies are our enemies.
This was a cowardly act, what happened to today. Drone attacks are cowardly acts on innocent populations. What is the difference? The world wants to know. And the grieving mothers and fathers. They have been asking. Did you know that? They have been protesting, going to court, trying to alleviate their grief somehow, maybe by getting some justice for their dead babies. To validate them as human beings.
We want to know. Why is the US terrorizing innocent populations? It sure isn't making us 'safe' here. We have massacres here now on almost a monthly basis. Most of them committed by Americans, white Americans.
So can you explain our terror attacks on these people who have done nothing to us?
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)I wish it were bullshit.
It has been in the news a great deal lately, hundreds of international reports on our dishonorable tactics, even the NY Times has reported on it.
onenote
(42,610 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)What would we do on days like this without you?
Response to elehhhhna (Original post)
Post removed
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Drones and this attack are most likely separate issues. It's not like discussing gun control on a day a mass shooting occurred, since gun control and mass shootings are directly related.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)For those who witness it, and are the family and loved ones of those affected.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)spectators at happy events, just for the hell of it. Yup, I knew DUers wouldn't miss a chance to bash America.
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)what is our record on weddings?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)It's spelled Murika here at DU lol ha ha
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)Data?
DinahMoeHum
(21,776 posts)Just sayin'
Response to elehhhhna (Original post)
Post removed
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Posting that is sick! Just saying
KoKo
(84,711 posts)11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)never. But it's always good to be reminded that the right hasn't cornered the market on abrasive assholes.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)will be killed, and in addition we have declared all males within certain very broad age ranges to be a priori "combatants" and we are engaged in these operations outside of anything that can be even remotely categorized as a battlefield. In reality we are absolutely targeting civilians using our military forces and that is a war crime.
But the op is a disgrace. Not for its inaccuracy but for its obnoxious timing.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Just saying.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Just saying.
Riley18
(1,127 posts)I am not really clear on your point. Are you suggesting they deserved to to be bombed?
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)...into some kind of perspective. In other words, we have no right to feel any of the three, because our moral indignation isn't as great as some others, and in the context of things, two people dead and scores hurt really isn't that much of a big deal. People suffer more on a daily basis. So shame on us for feeling shock, grief, and anger over Boston, because Christ knows, we can only channel our emotions into one tragedy at a time.
I should have known better than to log on to DU tonight.
Peace out.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)PFunk
(876 posts)Sorry, truth hurts (welcome to blow-back).
npk
(3,660 posts)Damn I had no idea?
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)just saying.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Take your moral superiority and shove it sideways.
still_one
(92,062 posts)not locked due to its extreme insensitivity
anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)FailureToCommunicate
(14,007 posts)awhile to find out if he was okay. Seven of his classmates were not so lucky.
Hope you find out your friends are okay, Will.
Screw this OP poster.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)
Response to Dawgs (Reply #122)
Floyd_Gondolli This message was self-deleted by its author.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)You're arguing with people on the Internet, which clearly is more important.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)who have been victimized by war and all acts of terrorism.
npk
(3,660 posts)You said "Karma is a bitch." Do you believe it is "karma" for those killed and injured today in Boston?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Posts like yours make DU suck.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)but it isn't "Karma." All terrorism is a crime. The perpetrators of these crimes are frequently not hurt in these attacks. There is no third party "Karma."
still_one
(92,062 posts)since there is a very real possibility that there are individuals on du who have friends or family who may have been injured by this
I love pompous asses who have no personal involvement in the race, yet can paint everything black and white, unless it happens to them
Did you ever hear about a time and place for everything
This isn't the time
Response to elehhhhna (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)and wonder why some people hate democrats as much as you hate republicans...
holy fuck what a STUPID thing to say...
sP
still_one
(92,062 posts)Of Democrats his view would be outside of 2 standard deviations
If the op had any empathy for those in Boston the thread would be locked
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)but you are 100% correct. Truly depressing to think about.
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)You ain't said shit, though, worth hearing. Just sayin...
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)large numbers of civilians? have you reported this?
JAbuchan08
(3,046 posts)egduj
(805 posts)These were our children.
Terra Alta
(5,158 posts)Are you suggesting we deserve what happened today in Boston?
It's posts like this that make DU suck. Just saying.
Texasgal
(17,042 posts)Yeah, no need to grieve for what happened today. Nope.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)PB
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)That means today means nothing to any of us. People die every day so it's no big deal when people die. Lack of compassion is the new black.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)people who try to kill innocents or who have actually done so. Sadly, sometimes we hit other people, too.
Sad to see you, of all people, chiming in with this nonsense.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)PB
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Aggressive war-mongering nations are the leading cause for mass murder in this world.
Where have you been all of these years? You really should learn some history. Why don't you start with the Iraq War, which happened way back in 2003.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/24/headlines#7241
U.S. Drone Strike Kills 9 in Pakistan
At least nine people have been killed in a U.S. drone strike in northwest Pakistan. Pakistani officials say the victims were suspected militants, but the Obama administrations policy is to deem all adult-male drone targets as militants unless exculpatory evidence emerges after their deaths.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/anwar-al-awlakis-family-speaks-out-against-his-sons-deaths/2011/10/17/gIQA8kFssL_singlePage.html
In the days before a CIA drone strike killed al-Qaeda operative Anwar al-Awlaki last month, his 16-year-old son ran away from the family home in Yemens capital of Sanaa to try to find him, relatives say. When he, too, was killed in a U.S. airstrike Friday, the Awlaki family decided to speak out for the first time since the attacks.
To kill a teenager is just unbelievable, really, and they claim that he is an al-Qaeda militant. Its nonsense, said Nasser al-Awlaki, a former Yemeni agriculture minister who was Anwar al-Awlakis father and the boys grandfather, speaking in a phone interview from Sanaa on Monday. They want to justify his killing, thats all.
The teenager, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen who was born in Denver in 1995, and his 17-year-old Yemeni cousin were killed in a U.S. military strike that left nine people dead in southeastern Yemen.
The young Awlaki was the third American killed in Yemen in as many weeks. Samir Khan, an al-Qaeda propagandist from North Carolina, died alongside Anwar al-Awlaki.
http://livingunderdrones.org/report/
First, while civilian casualties are rarely acknowledged by the US government, there is significant evidence that US drone strikes have injured and killed civilians. In public statements, the US states that there have been no or single digit civilian casualties.(2) It is difficult to obtain data on strike casualties because of US efforts to shield the drone program from democratic accountability, compounded by the obstacles to independent investigation of strikes in North Waziristan. The best currently available public aggregate data on drone strikes are provided by The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ), an independent journalist organization. TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562-3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474-881 were civilians, including 176 children.(3) TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228-1,362 individuals. Where media accounts do report civilian casualties, rarely is any information provided about the victims or the communities they leave behind. This report includes the harrowing narratives of many survivors, witnesses, and family members who provided evidence of civilian injuries and deaths in drone strikes to our research team. It also presents detailed accounts of three separate strikes, for which there is evidence of civilian deaths and injuries, including a March 2011 strike on a meeting of tribal elders that killed some 40 individuals.
Second, US drone strike policies cause considerable and under-accounted-for harm to the daily lives of ordinary civilians, beyond death and physical injury. Drones hover twenty-four hours a day over communities in northwest Pakistan, striking homes, vehicles, and public spaces without warning. Their presence terrorizes men, women, and children, giving rise to anxiety and psychological trauma among civilian communities. Those living under drones have to face the constant worry that a deadly strike may be fired at any moment, and the knowledge that they are powerless to protect themselves. These fears have affected behavior. The US practice of striking one area multiple times, and evidence that it has killed rescuers, makes both community members and humanitarian workers afraid or unwilling to assist injured victims. Some community members shy away from gathering in groups, including important tribal dispute-resolution bodies, out of fear that they may attract the attention of drone operators. Some parents choose to keep their children home, and children injured or traumatized by strikes have dropped out of school. Waziris told our researchers that the strikes have undermined cultural and religious practices related to burial, and made family members afraid to attend funerals. In addition, families who lost loved ones or their homes in drone strikes now struggle to support themselves.
Third, publicly available evidence that the strikes have made the US safer overall is ambiguous at best. The strikes have certainly killed alleged combatants and disrupted armed actor networks. However, serious concerns about the efficacy and counter-productive nature of drone strikes have been raised. The number of high-level targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely lowestimated at just 2%.(4) Furthermore, evidence suggests that US strikes have facilitated recruitment to violent non-state armed groups, and motivated further violent attacks. As the New York Times has reported, drones have replaced Guantánamo as the recruiting tool of choice for militants.(5) Drone strikes have also soured many Pakistanis on cooperation with the US and undermined US-Pakistani relations. One major study shows that 74% of Pakistanis now consider the US an enemy.(6)
Fourth, current US targeted killings and drone strike practices undermine respect for the rule of law and international legal protections and may set dangerous precedents. This report casts doubt on the legality of strikes on individuals or groups not linked to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2011, and who do not pose imminent threats to the US. The US governments failure to ensure basic transparency and accountability in its targeted killing policies, to provide necessary details about its targeted killing program, or adequately to set out the legal factors involved in decisions to strike hinders necessary democratic debate about a key aspect of US foreign and national security policy. US practices may also facilitate recourse to lethal force around the globe by establishing dangerous precedents for other governments. As drone manufacturers and officials successfully reduce export control barriers, and as more countries develop lethal drone technologies, these risks increase.
Before the drone strikes started, my life was very good. I used to go to school and I used to be quite busy with that, but after the drone strikes, I stopped going to school now. I was happy because I thought I would become a doctor. Sadaullah recalled, Two missiles (were) fired at our hujra and three people died. My cousin and I were injured. We didnt hear the missile at all and then it was there. He further explained, (The last thing I remembered was that) we had just broken our fast where we had eaten and just prayed. . . .We were having tea and just eating a bit and then there were missiles. . . . When I gained consciousness, there was a bandage on my eye. I didnt know what had happened to my eye and I could only see from one. Sadaullah lost both of his legs and one of his eyes in the attack. He informed us, Before (the strike), my life was normal and very good because I could go anywhere and do anything. But now I am not able to do that because I have to stay inside. . . . Sometimes I have really bad headaches. . . . (and) if I walk too much (on my prosthetic legs), my legs hurt a lot. (Drones have) drastically affected life (in our area).
http://archive.org/details/scm-90762-medeabenjamindronewarfarekilli
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Our Drone Strikers have learned the terror value of the "Double Tap".
That is where a repeat attack is scheduled about 20 minutes after the first attack so that it takes out the First Responders.
When the People Who Help are too terrified to risk it,
the victims of the 1st attack get to lay in their blood and scream for hours.
Plus.
Our USA Freedom Bombs are much BIGGER.
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)several threads are talking about how it is a natural reaction of people to help those in trouble or hurt and I think that's true and its impossible for me to not correlate the two..even if some think it is inappropriate at this time. Its all inappropriate..hurting anyone ever for any reason. I just don't understand the world in which we live.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)congrats!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)No wonder you and I find little with which we can agree.
It really is disturbing to see oneself reflected in the mirror unexpectedly, isn't it?
And, of course, the instinctive reaction is anger and denial.
Your name, as well as mine are on those Hellfire missiles,
but it is easier for some to feel the pain when it is close to their home,
and it is people like them bleeding in the wreckage.
Yes, what happened in Boston was an outrage,
but no more an outrage than the senseless destruction of innocents around the World everyday.
I thank the OP for widening the scope.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
dionysus
(26,467 posts)vaht?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)You are spot on!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)I think we can ALL agree that it is not OK to fabricate LIES about a member of DU,
and post them to DU.
Number23,
You have knowingly posted false accusations about a member of DU.
This diminishes YOU,
and it diminishes DU.
I am referring to your post #263
of the thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022632517
where you stated:
[font color=red][font size=3]"Those recs are obviously putting food on your table."[/font][/font]
which, of course, is an outright fabrication (polite for "LIE" .
I called you on your fabrication,
and asked you to support it, or retract it.
You have failed to do so,
and have knowingly left false information about another member of DU standing
with YOUR name on it.
That is much worse than making a mistake out of confusion and frustration.
That is a sign of desperation and low character.
I take that seriously.
So should you.
So should DU.
We are now at an impasse.
Any response you make to a comment of mine on DU,
or any mention of my posts or name on DU
will be followed by this post.
YOU have the power to end this.
Either support your fabrications,
or retract them.
If you have enough integrity to correct the falsehoods you posted about me,
I will amend my posts publicly calling attention to them.
Sincerely,
bvar22
DU Member since 2001
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2644074
Number23
(24,544 posts)If you want to decide that someone saying you getting recs helps you to feed a deer is something so direly serious enough that you need to bray about it for days on end, then that is on you. You have a VASTLY over elevated opinion of yourself, and your passionate desire to hear your own voice and read your own words is the real problem here.
No rational or thinking person (and truly that explains your inability to rationalize this properly) would conclude that someone saying that RECS ARE FEEDING A DAMN DEER is being serious. You and your feigned indignation are thoroughly boring.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)nt
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)One person or persons kill people for political or otherwise terroristic motivations,
indiscriminately killing innocents and targets alike.
The Boston bomber(s) did the same thing.
Stinky The Clown
(67,766 posts)I am as strongly opposed to those as you are, but I don't think two wrongs make a right.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)... turn a blind eye to.
As to whether today's awful tragedy was a direct result of the things our military does on a routine basis, has yet to be answered.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)and though there is a more sensitive way to say what you said, when I heard about the bombings and then saw the photos, my mind also flashed to the horror the US has unleashed on others (Shock & Awe, drones...). I am not saying this is payback nor that the poor innocent victims deserved what happened. Certainly not. But it made me think about what is done in our name elsewhere. The horror and later the hatred.
Just awful and so very sad.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)The cast of the amen corner for fourteen words of idiocy doesn't surprise me, last I saw of them they were ripping President Obama. Carry on.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)I have tried to alert, however I was late, someone or many others have tried.
Sadly, according to the DUmail, it was allow to stand.
This post hurts. it is disruptive in a time we need to come together. It sound like your saying we deserve this. Now I am sure that is not what you mean, however it is coming off that way.
I would appeal to you for the sake of not causing anymore pain than what many are feeling right now to delete.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)All over the world? You must live in a different and very small world.
One thing is for sure, people like you make inflammatory shit up every day to get undeserved attention.
WTF do drones have to do with what happened in Boston? Maybe you know something the rest of us don't.
mzmolly
(50,980 posts)of violence?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Drum
(9,104 posts)Pls don't seize on things like this to make that point.
Distasteful, IMHO. Especially so from someone who appears not to revisit/defend their inflammatory post.
spanone
(135,795 posts)not.
Response to elehhhhna (Original post)
davidn3600 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Hijacking a tragedy for your personal axe-to-grind.
sheshe2
(83,669 posts)Uncalled for.
Would you let those that live in Massachusetts locate our friends and family! Grieve for those we have lost. Before you dump on us!
Jesus!
FailureToCommunicate
(14,007 posts)lucky.
Screw you, and the false equivalency drone you rode in on!
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Some people shouldn't be allowed internet access during times like this.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Probably had a big fucking smirk as you typed this too.
Llewlladdwr
(2,165 posts)Ron Green
(9,822 posts)It really depends on how "shit like this" is defined. If it means targeting ordinary people engaged in recreation, then the OP is a mean-spirited stretch.
If it means killing innocent people while making a political point, then the OP is a sobering reminder of U.S. misbehavior that demands our attention.
In either case, the division among the responses shows how strong is the tribalism here and elsewhere.
cali
(114,904 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Yeah, totally
Mr Dixon
(1,185 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)As the one neither denies nor validates the other, it seems about as useful as telling a dying family member "people die all over the world everyday. Just saying..."
Six of one, half a dozen of the other, and both as useless and and idiotic as the other. (Just saying)
Taverner
(55,476 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Sometimes they actually hit their intended target. Terrorist just bomb to create chaos and indiscriminately kill people. You might not believe it, but there is a difference.