Not that I do a lot of it, but I'm glad I'm free to insult religion

[cali]

I hate stories like this one. They completely creep me out.

Turkish Pianist Sentenced for Twitter Postings

— A court here handed down a suspended 10-month jail term on Monday for Fazil Say, an internationally-acclaimed Turkish pianist and composer convicted of insulting Islam and offending Muslims in postings on Twitter.

Mr. Say, 42, who has performed with major orchestras around the world in places including New York, Berlin and Tokyo, said during earlier hearings that the accusations against him go “against universal human rights and laws.” The sentence was suspended for five years, meaning that the pianist will not be sent to prison unless he is convicted of re-offending within that period.

In recent years, many intellectuals, writers and artists have been prosecuted for statements about Islam and Turkish identity, both of which the pro-Islamic government seeks to shield from criticism. Social media outlets like Facebook and Twitter, however, have rarely figured in previous trials, although Turks are active users of the sites.

The messages cited in the indictment were Mr. Say’s personal remarks referring to a poem by a famous 11th century Persian poet, Omar Khayyam, which poked fun at an Islamic vision of the afterlife.

The poem was sent to Mr. Say from another user before he forwarded it.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/world/middleeast/turkish-pianist-sentenced-for-twitter-postings.html?_r=0

[Buzz Clik]

1. A teacher in Albany was suspended for insulting Judaism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2670992

Are we better?

[WolverineDG]

2. Not exactly the hill I'd want to die on

but I guess you're ok with a public school teacher requiring students to pretend to be Nazis & argue that Jews are evil.

That teacher wasn't "insulting" Judaism.

[Iggo]

3. That wasn't for "insulting Judaism".

That was for requiring that students argue that "Jews are evil" from the point of view of a nazi, using real propaganda and the students' own real-life experiences. That's not insulting Judaism. That's insulting common sense. And he was suspended by his employer, not put on trial by the state.

[Buzz Clik]

6. Oh, good. As long as we can rationalize it, it's okay.

[Iggo]

10. That's what happened.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Yep. A teacher was suspended for insulting Judaism. Correct. That is what happened.

[Iggo]

18. That's not what happened.

[Buzz Clik]

20. It is precisely what happened.

You are merely arguing the degree of the insult.

[cali]

15. critical thinking. Not something you indulge in. ever.

[Buzz Clik]

21. I confess that I engaged in a little hyperbole: that teacher in Albany did not insult Judaism.

Her assignment was an intellectual exercise -- make believe, if you are four years old: Pretend you are a Nazi and pretend you are trying to convince the public that Jews are evils. What approach would you take if this hypothetical, pretend exercise were real?

Her assignment doesn't even rise to the level of the joke/Tweet in the OP because jokes are just a clever way of delivering a sincere insult. In the high school assignment in Albany, there was no insult. No reality. No attempt to do harm.

And you know the really ironic part? It requires critical thinking to understand all that. Isn't that a funny twist?

[cali]

22. actually that assignment required regurgitation not analytic thinking.

Using Nazi propaganda and students' personal experiences with Jews they were told to write a letter as a German citizen in the thirties who is trying to convince a Nazi official that they are loyal to the Reich.

And no, honey, jokes are not always a way to deliver a sincere insult. ack. you really are failing in this debate. Sad.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Read my post again. I won't hold it against you when you edit out your ridiculous comment.

You know -- in the title. When you suggest that I said the assignment required analytical thinking. Or thinking of any kind.

Edit your response to accurately reflect what I said, and we'll carry on.

[cali]

26. you're beginning to remind me of that Monty Python bit:

"Wot you going to do? Bleed all over me?"

You've repeatedly said that this assignment required thinking, that it was an intellectual exercise, but you want to nitpick because you have nothing else in your rhetorical arsenal.

It required no thinking whatsoever. duh.

[Buzz Clik]

28. No, you're trying to redefine the argument, and I won't let you.

The critical thinking that is required is not from the students but from those who strive to understand what the teacher was attempting to accomplish. The critical thinking is required to overcome the initial, misguided emotional reactions. That's the advantage of thinking at all.

Now, you have resorted to ridicule, name calling, obfuscation, and weak attempts to change the subject. I will not join you in any of it.

I've made my point on two of your threads, and I give you the last word. (I will not allow you draw me in with more of your bad manners; feel free, however, to display them for all to see.)

[cali]

30. lol. no I'm not redefining the discussion.

but I have to laugh at your admission that the assignment required no critical thinking from the students.

Yes, I'm laughing at your argument, but quit the sanctimonious and deeply hypocritical lecture on my bad manners.

YOU called me a potted plant. You have tossed out lots of other insults as well and YOU have the nerve to lecture on civility.

I know what EM Forster so brilliantly said about hypocrisy, so I'll forgive you, hon.

[Dorian Gray]

5. I didn't read

where he was sentenced to five years of prison after being arrested and tried for a crime.

Oh, wait!

Yes, we are better.

And the school had every right to suspend him for compelling his students to argue against Jewish humanity from the eyes of Nazis.

[Nye Bevan]

7. How long was that teacher's prison sentence? (nt)

[Buzz Clik]

11. Yes, well done. You're falling right in step.

A little bit of restriction of free speech is good -- when it comes to being suspended from work.

But, a lot of restriction of free speech is bad.

It's all so clear now.

[cali]

16. bwahaha. you really are spiraling

into the realm of utter nonsense.

I enjoy it immensely.



your friend,

the potted plant.

[cali]

14. bzzzzt. uh no. the teacher was not remotely suspended for insulting Judaism. duh

But even if it were true, there's a difference I know you find hard to grasp, between being suspended from a teaching post and being tried in court for passing on a twitter joke.

duh.

Pathetic.

[quinnox]

4. Muslims and their prophet

Some of these fundies are real sensitive about this, it is awful that they think being offended should mean people who make jokes about their religion should be jailed, or even killed. (Salmon Rushdie, for example)

[Quantess]

12. Props to Great Britain for knighting "Sir" Salman Rushdie after the

Last edited Mon Apr 15, 2013, 09:06 AM - Edit history (1)

life threatening harrassment he endured.

Cheers to freedom of speech!

Edit to correct myself: Not just harrassment, there was a fatwa issued on Salman Rushdie's life. The Ayatollah of Iran announced to Muslims that Salman Rushdie should be killed because he insulted Islam.

[Dorian Gray]

8. I agree with you

I'm glad that we have to freedom to say what we like about other religions. I don't do it. I think it's impolite, especially to criticize a faith I really know little about. But I am glad that we are not jailed or tried for something of this nature.

[Buzz Clik]

9. Wow. This thread is starting to sound an awful lot like Muslims are bad, everybody is good.

Who does that remind of ....???

[cali]

17. No it doesn't and I'm keenly aware that there are Christian fundies

in this country that would happily institute such laws if they could.

[RKP5637]

24. Exactly!!! And, they are working hard to make that happen. And many fall as victims of fundies. Same

thing, different names. And, why local elections are sooo important.

[LanternWaste]

19. That we may freely and without fear of government sanctioned consequences...

That we may freely and without fear of government sanctioned consequences, make fun of the established religions, the government, social mores, and other popular orthodoxies and sacred cows is a major reason I giggle when I read we live in a police state.

[RKP5637]

23. Religion is just another form of politics, power and control. Many just do not get that. And for

some leading the flocks it means lots of $$$$$. Religion, Inc.

[DreamGypsy]

27. The Rubaiyat of Omar Khyyam

If popularity you would ensue,
Speak well of Muslim, Christian, and Jew;
So shall you be esteemed of great and small,
And none will venture to speak ill of you.

Verse 498, as translated by Edward Henry Whinfield 1883

Here's a bit of literary analysis that helps elucidate what might have caused Mr. Say to get in trouble with clerics and the Turkish courts, from Cultural Influences of Early to Contemporary Voices By James P. Stobaug:

First, Khyyam writes about the afterlife in a non-conformist manner. The promised Islamic paradise is detailed in the Qur'ans' Surah, 78:31-34:

Verily for the Muttaquan (holy), there will be a success (Paradise), Gardens and Grapeyards; and young maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine).

Khyyam prefers to think through the implications of the Qur'ans' statement (Rubiayat 88):

They promise there will be paradise and the houri-eyed
Where clear wine and honey will flow
Should we prefer wine and honey, what's the harm
Are these not the final recompense?

In a rhetorical element that must have infuriated the orthodox Muslim ideal, Khyyam wonders why carnal pleasures should not be enjoyed on earth as well as in Paradise. The Muslim reader considered the pleasures of paradise reserved for the holy on earth, not the sinful. Contrastingly, Khyyam suggests if these pleasures were commanded in paradise, why would they be sinful on earth?

Yeah, that might annoy the religious right, right?

In ninth grade English (1967) we had to select and memorize some poetry of our own choosing and do a recitation for the instructor. One of the books on my parent's shelves was a book containing reprints of several editions of the Rubaiyat as translated by Edward Fitzgerald. I picked some verses for part of my recitation. I certainly didn't fully appreciate the lush beauty of the words I was memorizing. I was probably more interested by the sensuous illustrations in the book...



Of the many books in my parents' library, the Rubaiyat is one of a few I still have.

As a counterpoint to Khayyam's eloquence I also choose to recite e.e.cummings' i sing of Olaf glad and big

i sing of Olaf glad and big
whose warmest heart recoiled at war:
a conscientious object-or

his wellbelovéd colonel(trig
westpointer most succinctly bred)
took erring Olaf soon in hand;
but--though an host of overjoyed
noncoms(first knocking on the head
him)do through icy waters roll
that helplessness which others stroke
with brushes recently employed
anent this muddy toiletbowl,
while kindred intellects evoke
allegiance per blunt instruments--
Olaf(being to all intents
a corpse and wanting any rag
upon what God unto him gave)
responds,without getting annoyed
"I will not kiss your fucking flag"
....

Being a teenager in the 60's was interesting...but probably not more interesting than any other decade.

[NCTraveler]

29. While people who obsess over religion irk me, pro or con,.......

the headline of your op is truly a staple of a free society. Freedom to express feelings about religion should be treasured and fought for by all.