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Texasgal

(17,029 posts)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:03 PM Apr 2013

My Niece was 14 years old

when she became pregnant with her first child.

Her Mother was unemployed and many issues including drug abuse. My Niece lived with my grandparents and ended up marrying the father 22 years old by proxy as he was in jail. So, he avoided statutory rape charges.

She had 4 kids by the time she was 21.

She never finished school and all lived with grandparents until their deaths.

Just wanted to post this since we have been in a conversation with a new member which some believe is a troll.

Young pregnancy happens, and had my grandparents had any sense they would not have helped raise all these kids. In the end they lost their home and all the money they ever had ( which wasn't much ) to help care for this family.

I feel awful for MicheleB... what recourse should she have?

86 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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My Niece was 14 years old (Original Post) Texasgal Apr 2013 OP
Thank you for coming to her aid Xipe Totec Apr 2013 #1
And, I am not a troll Texasgal Apr 2013 #2
LOL ! jaysunb Apr 2013 #3
Used to marry them off at 12 and send them out the door. Just saying... eom Purveyor Apr 2013 #4
no, that is the common myth hfojvt Apr 2013 #6
'Age of consent' laws in the USA were set at between 10-12 by 1880. By 1920, most states upped Purveyor Apr 2013 #24
consent to have sex, not consent to marry hfojvt Apr 2013 #26
As a medievalist, very uncommon pre-1600 as well except in unusual circumstances anneboleyn Apr 2013 #76
As a medievalist, were you insulted by "Pulp Fiction?" AngryAmish Apr 2013 #86
and the wives were considered men's property, just asking- do you have a point to make? bettyellen Apr 2013 #13
What part of 'just saying...' couldn't you comprehend. eom Purveyor Apr 2013 #22
usually "just saying" implies significance... but I guess, not always. LOL. bettyellen Apr 2013 #28
Woodland air is fine to breathe. Just sayin'... LanternWaste Apr 2013 #80
According to the story Aerows Apr 2013 #51
Used to? There are still child marriages in this world... Neoma Apr 2013 #15
So much thanks to you Texasgal!! MichelleB Apr 2013 #5
The 15 year old should be reported to the police for statutory rape. pnwmom Apr 2013 #8
12 and 14 are not the same thing in the eyes of the law Aerows Apr 2013 #31
Statutory rape = sex with a minor child. pnwmom Apr 2013 #41
It's a bit more forceful Aerows Apr 2013 #42
Because putting a 15 year old in jail is a good idea? IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #61
No, to get him out of her life so they won't be raising a child together. pnwmom Apr 2013 #63
The odds aren't good the courts will push him "out" of her life -- IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #64
Nice advice. MichelleB Apr 2013 #68
That is crazy. It doesn't matter what a 12 year old thinks, according to statutory rape laws. pnwmom Apr 2013 #73
Vermont law.. MichelleB Apr 2013 #74
A 12 year old isn't subject to the "close in age exception." pnwmom Apr 2013 #75
You are absolutely right Aerows Apr 2013 #82
Thanks, Aerows, pnwmom Apr 2013 #85
Your English mzteris Apr 2013 #10
I am wondering about something... Whisp Apr 2013 #14
True, such situations do sadly exist . . . mzteris Apr 2013 #17
It's a politically driven tall tale Aerows Apr 2013 #32
Thankyou, Aerows. You are wise. Whisp Apr 2013 #38
Worse Aerows Apr 2013 #39
I agree. HappyMe Apr 2013 #60
Yes, it does matter. MADem Apr 2013 #58
iPhones aren't THAT awesome MichelleB Apr 2013 #20
Lol mzteris Apr 2013 #21
I'll tell you this Aerows Apr 2013 #40
... MichelleB Apr 2013 #67
If your daughter was raped at five Aerows Apr 2013 #69
Google: Vermont Depart of Family and Child services... DCF MichelleB Apr 2013 #71
If your child was raped at 5 Aerows Apr 2013 #72
I recommend you use this awesome "ignore" feature when people call you a liar. IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #62
Put me on ignore, then Aerows Apr 2013 #70
I have reported you to the Admins and alerted on your abusive posts. IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #77
And when this is revealed to be a hoax Aerows Apr 2013 #78
Assume you are right, and it is a hoax. IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #79
If she has a 10 year old Aerows Apr 2013 #81
My point with the story about my niece is that -- IdaBriggs Apr 2013 #84
I know! Isn't it amazing? Heddi Apr 2013 #25
This looks like a hardcore Aerows Apr 2013 #43
The whole thing is sickening Heddi Apr 2013 #44
It's extremely sickening Aerows Apr 2013 #83
I'm "gunna" be as amazed as you are, "weather" or not you want me to be! "For real!" nt MADem Apr 2013 #53
the reason i have a hard time believing that story is because of the Abortion Focus JI7 Apr 2013 #7
I don't know the story, but the first thing I would think about was termination if my 12 year old NotThisTime Apr 2013 #45
You don't know the story? You posted IN THE THREAD a day before you made this post! MADem Apr 2013 #59
To call the authorities? a la izquierda Apr 2013 #9
I'm sorry about your niece's situation. blueamy66 Apr 2013 #11
Seventeen is quite a bit different than fourteen (never mind twelve.) Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #18
I guess so. blueamy66 Apr 2013 #19
My sister was just barely 14 when she got pregnant and ended up married. He was 17. hobbit709 Apr 2013 #12
so sorry... Whisp Apr 2013 #16
I was sixteen when I had my first child. I grew up fast as she was severely disabled. Married the jwirr Apr 2013 #23
16 isn't 12. Aerows Apr 2013 #37
You are correct and today is very different than then. Many of us were getting married very young jwirr Apr 2013 #66
Girls used to be married off at menarche Warpy Apr 2013 #27
Some girls have menarche at 9 Aerows Apr 2013 #36
No, but some men are. Warpy Apr 2013 #47
She supposedly Aerows Apr 2013 #49
Yeppers, as I stated in the original post Warpy Apr 2013 #52
My neighbor got pregnant when she was 14 HockeyMom Apr 2013 #29
14 isn't 12. n/t Aerows Apr 2013 #35
Of course it exists and I still believe she's a troll. cali Apr 2013 #30
14 is also not 12 Aerows Apr 2013 #34
Could you tell me what program VT has for parents of drug addicted teens? NotThisTime Apr 2013 #46
Even younger daughter in the household Aerows Apr 2013 #50
Every area in the state has a community mental health service. Everyone of those has cali Apr 2013 #54
I have a 900.00 bill from one of these centers, they assessed my drug addicted kid and talked to NotThisTime Apr 2013 #55
you must have good financial resources. EVERY one of those centers cali Apr 2013 #56
I had a problem with the comments about Howard Dean's CHILDREN. MADem Apr 2013 #57
14 under law Aerows Apr 2013 #33
k&r Liberal_in_LA Apr 2013 #48
There are lots of instances of this happening - many with happy endings, many with bad endings. cbdo2007 Apr 2013 #65

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
6. no, that is the common myth
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:34 AM
Apr 2013

and it may be true for pre-1600. I don't have records going back that far, but generally Catholics never married before age 20.
Example from the children of Melchior Honer
Konrad, born 26 Nov 1645 married on 18 Nov 1668 to Anna Merkt born 18 Sep 1646 (age at marriage 22)
Johann born 1 Nov 1647 married 5 Mar 1668 to Maria Keller 12 Jan 1651 (age at marriage 18, but first child born 29 Apr 1669)
Luitgard Honer born 1653 married on 26 Jun 1678 (age 25)

In colonial America they sometimes married younger, but under 16 would be very rare.

Again, for example, the children of Matthew Grant
Priscilla born 14 Sep 1626 married on 14 Oct 1647 to Michael Humphrey (age 21)
Samuel born 12 nov 1631 married 27 may 1658 Mary Porter 1 Oct 1637 (age 20)
Tahan born 3 Feb 1634 married 22 jan 1662 Hannah Palmer born 11 oct 1640 (age 21)
John born 30 Apr 1642 married 2 Aug 1666 Mary Hull born 2 Oct 1648 (age almost 18)

Oh, and "sending them out the door" was also not the common practice. For example my patriarch Jeremiah Koch in the 1880 census.
Age 69, wife Mary 60 and with him his sons Mattison 29, Amos 22 and grandson James 16. Right next door to them his daughter Jane and her husband Frank Mead and next door to them, his son Michael and his wife Arvilla. It was quite common for married children to live at home, or right down the road.

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
24. 'Age of consent' laws in the USA were set at between 10-12 by 1880. By 1920, most states upped
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:25 PM
Apr 2013

consent ages to 14-16.

Information on the ages used historically in western age of consent laws is not readily available. This table has been compiled from a combination of historical and contemporary sources. By 1880, the first date chosen, many western nations had established an age of consent for the first time, typically of 12 or 13 years. By 1920, when the influence of reform campaigns that established a new link between the age of consent and prostitution had run its course, most had revised their age upward, to 14 or 15 in European nations, and 16 in the Anglo-American world. In the last decades of the 20th century, states and nations with ages below those averages amended their laws to move closer to them. In Europe that growing conformity owed much to moves toward greater European integration. Given that the rationale for the age of consent has remained essentially unchanged in its emphasis on the need to protect 'immature' children, the table highlights the shifting and various definitions of childhood employed across time and cultures.

Source with chart: http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
26. consent to have sex, not consent to marry
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:39 PM
Apr 2013

and it may not have been illegal, but that does NOT prove that it was happening all the time, or even fairly common. It may even have been legal for a 13 year old to get married, but show me that it actually happened in more than 3 out of 100,000 marriages and I would be shocked.

And that still would not have made it "normal". You'd need more like 20,000 out of 100,000 marriages to make it normal, and that just ain't gonna happen anywhere I have seen records, and I have over 300,000 records from Germany to Switzerland to all over the northern and western USA. Most girls were not getting married before age 14 in the 1800s or the 1700s in those locations.

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
76. As a medievalist, very uncommon pre-1600 as well except in unusual circumstances
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:27 PM
Apr 2013

in fact only in cases of royal marriages do you see teens below 16 being married (I am speaking as a general rule, not an absolute). Most common to be around 19-20 at time of marriage.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
51. According to the story
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 11:37 PM
Apr 2013

there is also a younger daughter in the household. On what planet does the teller of this tale think that they would allow a younger daughter to remain in the household where a 12 year old got pregnant?

This has to be the most ignorant construct to score political points "wise young 12 year old refuses to get abortion" I've ever read.

MichelleB

(80 posts)
5. So much thanks to you Texasgal!!
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:37 AM
Apr 2013

Thank you for your understanding. I've been accused of being a "troll", under educated and a neglectful parent. To which none are true. I also had a post removed because I defended myself and was allegedly calling someone a liar. When all I said is, is that they were being judgementitive. I know what I'm up against and I know no one wants to believe because it's a horrible situation. Unfortunately it is true. And I came acrossed du purely by accident. I was looking for resources. There was a thread that said pregnant twelve year old threatens to claim suit when parents seek abortion. It turned out to be an older posted and based on a hypothetical situation. Which mine is not. so I was hoping for some good advice and some outlets as it seems I have none. A few people have been extremely helpful and gave me good info but most seem to think I'm a fake. I can only assure you that I'm not. Thanks again.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
8. The 15 year old should be reported to the police for statutory rape.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:48 AM
Apr 2013

He is old enough to have given consent, but she wasn't. You should also be able to get some kind of no-contact order.

You need to remove him and his family from her life and this is the way to start. When he is gone you'll find out what her feelings are about the pregnancy without his involvement.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
31. 12 and 14 are not the same thing in the eyes of the law
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:45 PM
Apr 2013

Nor should they be. This isn't statutory rape, it's rape of a minor child.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
41. Statutory rape = sex with a minor child.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:16 PM
Apr 2013

And the boy who impregnated Michelle's 12 year old daughter is 15, so yes, he would be guilty of statutory rape.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
42. It's a bit more forceful
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:20 PM
Apr 2013

under the law under the age of 13. Which is what this poster didn't realize when they constructed this little fabrication. There are legalities that take place in that situation.

It's molestation of a minor. And yes, 15 year olds are capable of molestation under the law.

Aggravated sexual assault is what it is, not just sexual assault.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
61. Because putting a 15 year old in jail is a good idea?
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:54 PM
Apr 2013

Especially when they are now going to be raising a child together?

Sometimes there is "the law" and then there is "how do we all get along?"

If MichelleB's daughter has the child, in three years he can sue for custody (as an 18 year old), and then good luck *ever* seeing a grandchild again if you had daddy put in jail (assuming nothing happens to her daughter during childbirth, at which point he gets custody and you *never* see the grandchild).

Oh, and that is assuming he doesn't "demand" full legal custody/go after the girl's family for child support, which frankly, as the parents of the boy I would be pushing for (if the pregnancy is carried to term) - welcome to equality! - sigh.

This is a difficult and complicated situation, and this boy-man-child is now going to be a part of every. single. major. life. event. for the next EIGHTEEN years (if she has the child/it isn't surrendered for adoption).

This is a mess; while jail might sound good, *someone* has to be looking out for the long term. MichelleB is going to have no say over pretty much anything while being responsible for a troubled teenager/possible baby, but she will be a) paying the bills, and b) dealing with the emotional repercussions of a teenage pregnancy/motherhood. Despite her understandable fury, she needs to start figuring out how to get along before she ends up shut out - she's powerless, and needs to figure out what *her* boundaries are.

This is a sad situation.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
63. No, to get him out of her life so they won't be raising a child together.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 03:08 PM
Apr 2013

The mother said he's been the one pushing the girl not to get an abortion.

The court is not going to look kindly on a youth who impregnated a 12 year old and then wants to sue for custody.

By your arguments, no one would ever be prosecuted for statutory rape -- even if the victim is only 12.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
64. The odds aren't good the courts will push him "out" of her life --
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 03:28 PM
Apr 2013

especially with her telling everyone she consented / wants to be with him. This is not *sounding* like a child molester case, but rather a young/dumb girl who "decided" (insert my eye roll here, please) to become sexually active before she should have (legally) and the authorities are pretty likely to view it that way, with a "slap on the wrist/what is best for the baby" viewpoint.

(Also, you would be *shocked* at the number of statutory rape cases that are *never* prosecuted, even when the perpetrator is over 21 and the parents are demanding it; just because a law is on the books doesn't mean it means anything, especially when the defense can pull a witness to the stand who professes her Love for Romeo.)

And, unfortunately, even when it is rape, most states (I am not going to look up Vermont) don't have laws that will "forbid" the rapists from having contact with "their" children. (Law & Order: SVU just did an episode that focused on this.) The court's duty is to look out for the best interests of the "new" child, and realistically, which is the "better" caretaker - a 13 year old girl, or a 16 year old boy?

(Even having this conversation is making me throw up in my mouth a little - ick.)

Realistically, there will be a guardian ad-litem appointed, and then "best lawyer/best support system" will win full custody. The mom of the 12 year old who got pregnant is probably going to look "bad" for "allowing" it to happen, while the parents of the 15 year will be judged "differently" especially if they are jumping up and down demanding to "help" and "support" their son in his new life as a single dad. (I am not saying this is a good thing, but trying to view this as realistically as this horrible situation can be viewed.)

Like it or not, he *is* going to be around for the next eighteen years. Time to start figuring out how to "get along" for the sake of the grandchild.

Sigh.

MichelleB

(80 posts)
68. Nice advice.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:48 PM
Apr 2013

Good advice. When I went to the pd they said it would be a little harder to do because I'm not the one in the relationship and I can't request a relief from abuse simply because SHE SAYS no abuse is happening. But 12 year olds and sex shouldn't be allowed!! Especially when the boy is 15!! So I feel lost. Funny story, I'm heading to CUSI as we speak. :- hopefully they can so something or tell me something. I've gone to the pd, family court and now these people. Hopefully someone some where can provide me with SOME THING.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
73. That is crazy. It doesn't matter what a 12 year old thinks, according to statutory rape laws.
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:53 PM
Apr 2013

Her consent would be irrelevant -- even if SHE asked HIM to have sex, it would still be statutory rape.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
75. A 12 year old isn't subject to the "close in age exception."
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:14 PM
Apr 2013

From the first link:


What is the 2013 Age of Consent in Vermont?
The Vermont legal Age of Consent for sexual contact is 16 years old. A total of thirty one states have set their age of consent at 16, the lowest age of consent in any state.

A close-in-age exemption to the Vermont legal age of consent allows a minor 15 or 16 years old to engage ins sexual contact with a partner up to 19 years of age.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
82. You are absolutely right
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:28 PM
Apr 2013

They should have concocted their story better, or at least gotten someone with the sense to open a law book to concoct this tale.

And I'm shocked we agree with each other - usually we don't, but you are absolutely right and have the ability to open a law book, just like everyone else that sees this as horsecrap can, too.

And I apologize for sounding grumpy towards you, pnwmom. We've squared off a number of times on things, but this isn't one of them. Thank you for stepping up to the plate and calling bs when you see it. I appreciate people when they step up and point out reality, as you just did, and I hope you forgive me for being grumpy.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
85. Thanks, Aerows,
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 03:03 PM
Apr 2013

but no apology was necessary. People here have strong feelings and I try to put previous disagreements out of my mind -- so I don't even remember what ours have been about.

mzteris

(16,232 posts)
10. Your English
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 11:53 AM
Apr 2013

Spelling, grammar, and punctuation have improved dramatically.

That is the most amazing thing .

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
14. I am wondering about something...
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:36 PM
Apr 2013

does it really matter whether this account is 100% true or not. It seems that you are suspecting there is something foul afoot here with the poster that brought this story to us? What do you think the purpose would be if this were true?

What is 100% true is that situations like this exist. Young women/girls put in impossible situations and parents and loved ones going crazy to try to figure out what is the best way to help them. It breaks my heart, this story. Because it is a true story for so very many.

mzteris

(16,232 posts)
17. True, such situations do sadly exist . . .
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:44 PM
Apr 2013

But read between the lines of the original post. Read the original post, then the one to which I replied here. Then think about what I've said.

I don't think it's a true story. I don't believe the poster givess a rats ass about teen or underage pregnancy. I don't think they're a liberal and I sure as hell do think they have an agenda contrary to DU purported purposes.

And my observation would seem to bear out the suspicion by many that this is an interloper.

This in no way means I, nor other DU-ers, aren't concerned with the issue. In fact, I strongly believe we care much much more about it than the supposed concerned "aunt". So yes, it matters.

YMMV.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
32. It's a politically driven tall tale
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:50 PM
Apr 2013

It's designed to make abortion rights look bad "oh, here's a wise 12 year old that wants to carry a child, and how dare her parents make her abort it".

You live in Canada. If a child turned up pregnant at 12 in Canada, do you think the authorities would do absolutely nothing, or would they seek to protect that child under child endangerment laws, and seek to determine paternity?

A 12 year old cannot give consent in any of the 50 states of the US. Period. I suspect they cannot in Canada, either. If you can't give consent, what is that called?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
39. Worse
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:05 PM
Apr 2013

I think it is designed to weaken rape and incest injunctions against abortion. Which is just heinous.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
58. Yes, it does matter.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:21 PM
Apr 2013

This is the sort of 'sport' trolls engage in, in order to find a "gotcha" moment on the intertubes to use as examples to their right-wing, mouth-breathing pals. Their goal is to find holes in "liberal" arguments, in order to paint our team as hypocritical.

While it is true that situations like that exist, the other truth is that women -- and anyone who gets pregnant is biologically one of those, like it or not--have the right to self-determination when it comes to their own bodies. That's just not negotiable. What happens afterwards is a question for families to work out, and blaming "the state" because your child got in a family way isn't going to help at all.

MichelleB

(80 posts)
20. iPhones aren't THAT awesome
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 03:20 PM
Apr 2013

Simply put, I'm tired of being judged due to short hand texting and not using big words!! Or having my intelligence attacked because I'm using and I phone and can't stand typing everything out!!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
40. I'll tell you this
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:16 PM
Apr 2013

if this is true and you haven't reported this to the authorities, you are an advocate of child rape and as sorry of a human being as those at Penn State, and those in the Catholic Church that covered it up.

But never mind, this isn't true, and I know it isn't, so you are just a sorry human being that seeks to make political points off of the sympathies of others.

Bet me that I don't know that.

I dare you.

The ball is in your court, because this isn't a game for many children that have been raped or molested - and you can quote me on that . A child at 12 has been raped and molested if she is 12, and every law in the US backs me up on that.

You should be ashamed of yourself trying to weaken laws protecting children that are 12 from rape.

MichelleB

(80 posts)
67. ...
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:35 PM
Apr 2013

Excuse me. But my daughter WAS RAPED AT THE AGE OF FIVE!! And the bastard that did it is in jail with another 20 to go!! And this fact alone is prob why she decided sex at 12 was an okay thing. Authorities have been contacted!! Not only by me but by DCF and planned parenthood as well!! Or did you miss those posts?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
69. If your daughter was raped at five
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:30 PM
Apr 2013

and she is pregnant at 12, you are the worst parent imaginable.

Oh, Planned Parenthood. They are the villains here, obviously. Yep, evil old Planned Parenthood.

Oh, and Child Protective services in your state isn't federal. If the federals have gotten involved, you truly are in deep water.

Pretend as you wish, but none of it is the truth. Lies have consequences, particularly when on the federal level.

If you have a raped daughter at 5, and again at 12 she is pregnant, then you have a child at home under 10, I hope they are taken from you under child endangerment laws.

MichelleB

(80 posts)
71. Google: Vermont Depart of Family and Child services... DCF
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:40 PM
Apr 2013

Obviously I said planned parenthood was the bad guys. Not once did I call them bad guys. Please read the above statement, THEY CALLED DCF AND PD!! And yea I must be the worst parent alive. Because my child was out of state with HER FATHER and got raped WHILE IN HIS CARE. Not to mention, that I trusted my daughter to be honest about where she was going. Yup. I dare trust my child. Ohhh such bad parenting here. Ohhh. Check out Vermont Department of Family and Child services... What's it called? DCF!! So call me a liar all you want but point in fact if you used your search engine for more then the DU, you could find that out. I refuse to be personally attacked by you and WILL report your messages. Thank you. I refuse to battle with someone who allegedly knows all.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
72. If your child was raped at 5
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:45 PM
Apr 2013

and you also have a child at 10 in your household while your 12 year old is pregnant?

Oh yes, I hope your children are removed from your home because you are not fit to protect and nurture your children.

The thing is, though, I'm sure you are full of crap. For a number of reasons. You are trying to turn this into a circus of abortion rights, when really, it boils down to caring for children.

And that's what makes you a very vile advocate against caring about children, both IN and OUT of the womb, and a person that wants to make political points.

You aren't even good at it, that's what makes it transparent.

Maybe you should take a course in how to be better for the church? You haven't done very well here.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
62. I recommend you use this awesome "ignore" feature when people call you a liar.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:10 PM
Apr 2013

It drives them completely nuts when you ignore them, and it lowers your blood pressure tremendously!

I am sorry your family is in this mess. While you might be tempted to commit illegal acts, or have someone put in jail, my advice to you is not to go that route. Bluntly, you need to start learning how to get along with your "common-law-son" (aka, the father of your future grandchild); this will be hard because a) one can assume he is not bright (sleeps with a twelve year old); b) he will probably find other girls/women to develop relationships with in the future (which will hurt your daughter/teach your grandchild not to trust relationships/possibly expose your future grandchild to "sketchy"/jealous/resentful people); and c) you are going to end up angry and resentful about the loss of some of the dreams you had for your daughter/the opportunities she is missing/the financial challenges she is going to face (while he seems to "skate"/walk away) - among other areas.

Unfortunately, you need to begin to get along with him and his family because frankly, he is going to have more rights to your grandchild than you are (and possibly your daughter, due to her youth and immaturity). There is a good chance he will end up with permanent custody, especially if your daughter (heaven forbid!) dies during child-birth, or begins using illegal recreational substances during the next eighteen years, or just can't present to a judge as the best care-taker for the child, while he and his family prove they are (which means she becomes liable for child support instead of him).

You are going to have to present the example to your daughter of how to maturely get along with someone you ACTIVELY dislike; this will be invaluable because I guarantee your daughter is going to eventually *hate* this boy, especially when he finds other females to replace her with (which is 99% guaranteed to happen - sorry, but "mature true love at twelve" is pretty much mythical as far as I am concerned).

While it may be emotional awful, it sounds like he and his family need to raise the baby. Maybe she can "pump" so the child can benefit from breast milk? But she is literally too young to be a good mother, so that means he is going to need to step up and be the primary care-giver.

Good luck, and I am sorry.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
77. I have reported you to the Admins and alerted on your abusive posts.
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:18 AM
Apr 2013

I believe you are crossing over into terms of service violations with your comments, including lumping parents of child molestation victims into a "worst parent ever" category - with one out of three women being victims of child sexual abuse, your comments are over the top outrageous.

You could have chosen to "ignore" someone you *think* is a troll; I say *think* because you are not omniscient, and you keep doing the "broad brush" NONSENSE ("trying to weaken laws - supports incest - hates Planned Parenthood" - your comments are sickening, and are not those of the person you are attacking) that is Beyond Offensive.

I just posted yesterday that "yep, sometimes people on the intertubes are wrong - get over it" in another thread, and then your "parents of rape victims should lose custody" comments were made.

That was so far over the top into disgusting - wow. Just. Wow. There are some things DU should definitely make disappear, and comments like that fit that category for me.

I will wait to "ignore" until after either the Admins delete you, your hateful speech is hidden by a jury, or BEST OF ALL WORLDS you decide to SELF-DELETE the Crazy Talk. Somehow in your quest to "win the argument" you forgot that there really are people out here, and the situations being discussed really do happen. When we make laws, they are for the *majority* of situations (which fortunately rarely end up with pregnant pre-teens); we need to make sure that "good laws" have ways of dealing with the people who fall into the loopholes, and for those times when "exceptions" happen.

In my mind, these were *valid* points (including the "pro-choice means pro-choice, with no age limit&quot of discussion you could have engaged in, but instead you became purposefully vicious. Even if MichelleB is a troll (which I don't think she is, by the way, but the beauty of discussion boards is that people can have different viewpoints, even if other people think them wrong), your PERSONAL ATTACKS were Over The Top, and make DU look bad.

The twelve year old is NOT wise - she was raped (per the mother) at age five, obviously has issues / has chosen to become sexually active at an inappropriate age, and has been getting propagandized that "abortion is murder"/doesn't want to be a murderer. Instead of addressing *any* of these issues (including "how can we combat abortion misinformation&quot , you crossed lines of decency that I *highly* recommend you delete.

Take the advice or ignore it. Either way, I believe you should apologize because you got carried away into cruelty.

I hope a good night's sleep causes you to re-read what you wrote, and you are appropriately ashamed. If not, yes, I will be using the Ignore feature on you.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
78. And when this is revealed to be a hoax
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:51 AM
Apr 2013

I don't expect an apology, but I do hope you think twice when you believe everything you read on the internet - particularly something as inflammatory and political as this.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
79. Assume you are right, and it is a hoax.
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:15 PM
Apr 2013

Did you seriously need to go in the "parents of children who are sexually molested should lose custody" direction?

The ick factor there wins the "inflammatory and political" award.

And even if it is a hoax, it is a discussion board. I also don't think it is a hoax, but I have a lot more experience with "that is so crazy, it can't be true!" stuff.

Currently I have a niece who is threatening to report her grandmother to the police for "blackmail" if Grandma doesn't keep paying her cell phone bill; Grandma is willing to keep paying the cell phone bill, but only on condition the niece/grandchild send "everything is okay" messages once a day. (Niece/grandchild is in the hospital, and Grandma is concerned.) Obviously this is "blackmail" and Grandma belongs in jail/niece wants to press charges (but won't, if Grandma keeps paying the cell phone bill). True story. Sigh. There are a LOT of crazy situations out there. The one MichelleB reported doesn't even make my *personal/family* top ten.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
81. If she has a 10 year old
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:24 PM
Apr 2013

and isn't able to keep track of her 12 year old, what would you have me think? My God.

And I'd hardly call it blackmail if the niece is in the hospital. These two situations are not equal at all.

This story stinks to high heaven, and is nothing like "you are in the hospital, keep me posted on how you are doing."

This is pure political tall tales in this supposed situation. Think about it for five minutes, and why she would post such a story to a clearly political message board. And she's using Facebook? Good grief. Next we'll have "legitimate" twitter users talking about why abortion should be illegal. It's wrong in all kinds of ways that this person is manipulating people, you included.

If my harsh language offends you, I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for hucksters, and I don't know how else to get through to those of you who get fooled by this type of nonsense.

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
84. My point with the story about my niece is that --
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:26 PM
Apr 2013

No, it *isn't* blackmail but the Niece is *saying* it is blackmail because (politely) she is kind of an Idiot, and despite the fact Grandma has been helping her out left and right, the "payback" is a threat she believes credible to "put Grandma in Jail for Blackmail." It is Crazy - and it is REAL. Seriously, I get the "wtf" factor - and I tell it to point out how "real life" sounds completely implausible sometimes, especially when Major Levels of STUPID and Young People are involved.

You asked why the mom would post to a "political" board - I find "googling while dealing with trauma" to be very plausible because I have done it dozens of times. Heck, last year when the Neighbor Girl with Cerebral Palsy was suddenly walking after six weeks, I freaked out and talked about it on DU - sometimes "stranger/family" are the only people you can talk to, especially in the middle of the night when stress is keeping you awake. Fortunately, despite some "you are making this stuff up" fools, my CP situation turns out to be a good thing with an 83% success rate with the children we are tracking, me getting to do a presentation for a conference in a week and a half, and public health officials/researchers being involved. It all started at DU, tho, because DU is that kind of a place - we *TALK* with each other.

I find the story plausible; you don't. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter other than I am flat out telling you that you OFFENDED ME sixteen ways past decency when you attacked with the "if your child was molested, you should lose custody" crap. That was Over the Top for me. Accusing someone with a Troubled (pre)Teenager of automatically being a bad mother - well, maybe she is, and maybe she isn't, but heaven above, if she is looking for help and support, beating up on her when she is down is just WRONG. My kids aren't teenagers yet, but I have been around enough of them to know how "troubled" teens behave, and like it or not, the inappropriate sexual acting out is NOT uncommon -- and shock of ages, sometimes the little buggers LIE about who they are hanging out with. Parenting can be sucky, but it doesn't mean people don't love their children. If it is a true story, did you make the world better? If it isn't, did you help? For me, the answer to both questions is NO.

Yeah, I am taking some of it personally; I know sexual abuse survivors, and while individual circumstances differed, getting molested while visiting with your dad, which means your mom should lose custody sounds -- I believe "harsh" is the understatement of the century.

If I am unable to communicate with you why I think you need to go delete some of vicious rhetoric - NOTE: Not saying you can't disbelieve or have no sympathy or whatever - just saying PERSONAL ATTACKS and "you should lose your children because you are a horrible parent" are OVER THE TOP - and if you feel the need to justify or keep doing this type of thing, I can do the "ignore" feature. Personally, it is a last resort for me, because I believe in showing *even people I disagree with* the respect of telling them why.

It is the internet. We are both free to be wrong. But it is also DU, and we are both expected to play nicely.

Thoughts, please?

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
25. I know! Isn't it amazing?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:25 PM
Apr 2013

Going from incorrectly using "your" instead of "you're" in one sentence, then using it properly in the same context 2 sentences later. Can spell "preeclampsia" and "polyhydramnios" right but not "judgmental". Spells "know" correctly in one sentence but then replaces it with "no" and "kno" in another sentence in the same post.

Bullshit meter reading is off the charts. It's like someone is pretending to be something they're not, then slip up and spell things correctly until they remember they have to be...something else, then spell things incorrectly. It's bizarre. People should find hobbies, or volunteer at soup kitchens or something instead of trolling websites for no good reason

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
43. This looks like a hardcore
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:34 PM
Apr 2013

abortion rights activist that doesn't care if a child gets raped at 12, and I honestly believe that if a child is pregnant at 12, rape was involved. Children can't give consent at 12. "Oh look, the 12 year old is sticking to her guns, wanting to have her precious baby, because she doesn't want to commit murder!".

Good grief. Just another "abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even in the case of rape, incest and it may kill the life of the mother" type, wrapping it in different ugly political ribbons.

It's shameful that some here on DU are taken in by such dreck, since under us law, sexual intercourse with a 12 year old is against the law. If she's pregnant, obviously such took place and arrests would be made.

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
44. The whole thing is sickening
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:48 PM
Apr 2013

and that people are falling for it, and apologizing to the "mother" and wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth at the injustice of her having to live in that republican stronghold of Vermont....where's people's common sense? If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, well it must be a well-meaning exasperated parent at their wits end who made their first post in an archived thread and shared personal details about her life to a message board full of strangers. Yup, that'd be my first stop...not the police station, or the dr's office, or a lawyer's office, or the library, or a hospital social worker or a school guidance councelor....a message board

JI7

(89,182 posts)
7. the reason i have a hard time believing that story is because of the Abortion Focus
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:41 AM
Apr 2013

it's not that there was a pregnancy in itself .

but how they kept insisting the daughter get an abortion even though she didn't want to .

it just came off as one of those right wing stories you always hear.

NotThisTime

(3,657 posts)
45. I don't know the story, but the first thing I would think about was termination if my 12 year old
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:49 PM
Apr 2013

came to me pregnant, call me callous, call me whatever you want, I would be devastated and the first thing I would think is how to stop the situation, I'd deal with the boy and his family after that, but I'm a reactionary in the face of horror, and that's what a pregnant 12 year old is, it is a horror. She isn't 15 or 16 or 17, she's TWELVE, not even a teenager, that is a horror no matter what country you are in.

Aside from this story, there are more studies than not that indicate exactly what the OP said is the trend for teens who get pregnant, they are more likely to get pregnant again within 2 years, less likely to get an education, more likely to live in poverty, those are just the facts and we shouldn't really gloss over them. My 18 year old can't think six months out, how can a 12, 15, or 16 year old? My 15 year old is able to think six months out maybe or maybe not, depends on the topic. Teens are notorious for their inability to see far into the future.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
59. You don't know the story? You posted IN THE THREAD a day before you made this post!
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:51 PM
Apr 2013

You made a number of complaints about the supposed failures of VT to support parents, and you averred that VT had a bad gang problem.

http://betterment.democraticunderground.com/10022661346#post142

Response to Hekate (Reply #100)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:57 AM

NotThisTime (3,343 posts)

142. She has no say here. We have a son who was 16 and we were not allowed to see his test results even

though we had to pay for them. We had to be responsible for him even as he was doing drugs (less so now we think). If a child is 12 or over you have absolutely no say here. Pay up and shut up, that's what we've gotten and that's what we did for a long 2 years before he turned 18. I in no way would be surprised by this story after what we went through. It was a very lonely time for us with very little help, actually no help.

a la izquierda

(11,784 posts)
9. To call the authorities?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:36 AM
Apr 2013

Why is that such a hard thing to comprehend? If this woman doesn't get satisfactory recourse, keep calling.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
11. I'm sorry about your niece's situation.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:22 PM
Apr 2013

But not all of the stories turn out badly.

My niece had her first when she was 17. She is now 22 and has 3 boys. She graduated HS, wen on to a community college, is now a MA with a good job, has a car with payments and lives in an apartment with my great nephews.

She is happy and well-adjusted. She has many friends. BUT, she did have alot of family help, be it monetary or with living conditions or just plain support.

MicheleB needs to get the authorities involved....

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
18. Seventeen is quite a bit different than fourteen (never mind twelve.)
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:47 PM
Apr 2013

The chances of a good outcome to the story diminishes the younger the parents are. At 17 she was probably late in high school. Fourteen year-olds are generally still in middle school. The difference in maturity is enormous.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
12. My sister was just barely 14 when she got pregnant and ended up married. He was 17.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:30 PM
Apr 2013

He was given the option of marrying her and joining the Marines or jail. This was in 1972-before Roe vs. Wade. 3 months later the baby was stillborn. They later had a daughter who is now in her late 30's. They were married for 10 years until a drunken asshole shot and killed him.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
23. I was sixteen when I had my first child. I grew up fast as she was severely disabled. Married the
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:21 PM
Apr 2013

father who was just 17 and stayed with him 9 years and 9 months. We had three children in all. I am very poor now at the age of 71. But this was not due to our ages. what we went through was not uncommon for the times and our rural community. My problem is that the divorce - due mainly to our differing personalities - was before I was married to him for a full 10 years. It was also due to the fact that I wanted to take care of my oldest daughter instead of place her in an istitution. I am not sorry for any of it.

However, if I had it to do again I would not have married the father. I would have stayed single the rest of my life. That said I cannot imagine being without my younger children.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
37. 16 isn't 12.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:59 PM
Apr 2013

and the law doesn't see it that way, either. I'm glad because then we'd see 9 year olds bearing children like we are a third world country.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
66. You are correct and today is very different than then. Many of us were getting married very young
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 04:17 PM
Apr 2013

and many of us went on to make a better life for ourselves. With today's situation I do not think she is going to have an easy time of it. Concerning what she does and does not do about the pregnancy - I just hope it is something she can live with.

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
27. Girls used to be married off at menarche
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:53 PM
Apr 2013

and could expect hard work and a baby every year and the combination usually killed them off by the time they were 30.

I had a cousin who got pregnant at 14 and had the second at 16. She became a grandmother at 32. She eventually got her GED and now has a master's degree but if I ever said it was easy, she'd make me cut my own switch.

Yes, it happens. It doesn't have to be tragic if the pursed lips crowd doesn't get their way and the girls get actual support the way my cousin eventually did from her parents.

There is no recourse. Pregnancy is a normal but risky condition and the girl/woman in whose body it occurs has the entire say over whether it is to continue. The best anyone can do is give as much support as possible to the decision and the outcome, as well as giving good, solid information to help her avoid subsequent juvenile pregnancies.

At least they no longer throw girls out of school because they are pregnant. That was the most unfair thing that happened to my cousin.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
36. Some girls have menarche at 9
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:55 PM
Apr 2013

Are they ready to bear children? Under the law in this country, no, they aren't. Are we barbarians all of the sudden?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
49. She supposedly
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 11:31 PM
Apr 2013

has a younger daughter in the household. If it was the truth, I'd be pulling the younger daughter out of there in A heartbeat.

That's why it is bull. Younger child, pregnant 12 year old.

That doesn't sound fishy to you that CPS haven't removed those children?

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
52. Yeppers, as I stated in the original post
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:16 AM
Apr 2013

my BS meter is pinned. However, there are pregnant 11 year olds out there, too. And yes, CPS does get involved damned quickly once it's discovered.

It's usually a family member, sad to say, or the friend of an older male family member. Little girls don't stray too far from home.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
29. My neighbor got pregnant when she was 14
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:41 PM
Apr 2013

and had the baby but she nevered married the 17 year old father. Her Mom (divorced) raised her baby. This was in 1961. Everyone of her friends, and all the other teens in the area, shunned her. I myself told her she was OUT OF HER MIND and I was a year younger than she. While abortion wasn't legal back then, everyone I knew said she should have put the baby up for ADOPTION.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
30. Of course it exists and I still believe she's a troll.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:43 PM
Apr 2013

It's the language she uses and the utter bullshit about how VT is anti-parent. Vermont has tons of programs and resources for parents and largely they're excellent. And her language around abortion doesn't ring true either.

NotThisTime

(3,657 posts)
46. Could you tell me what program VT has for parents of drug addicted teens?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:53 PM
Apr 2013

You can't put the drug addicted teen into therapy or rehab, already tried that, won't go and doesn't have to.

NotThisTime

(3,657 posts)
55. I have a 900.00 bill from one of these centers, they assessed my drug addicted kid and talked to
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 08:11 AM
Apr 2013

my Husband and I over the course of a week. Al Anon if you can make it meets once a month in the middle of the day. How does that help parents parent a drug addicted teen who doesn't want to stop?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
56. you must have good financial resources. EVERY one of those centers
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 08:36 AM
Apr 2013

provides services on a sliding scale or free to those who need them. I don't know how old your kid is but maybe you should consider inpatient treatment. There's The Retreat, Maple Leaf Farm and others. If you want to pm me with more details I can provide you with more specific information.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
57. I had a problem with the comments about Howard Dean's CHILDREN.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:15 PM
Apr 2013

Since when is being "PRO GAY" bad?

That's all I needed for my alarm to go from a beep to a shriek.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
33. 14 under law
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:52 PM
Apr 2013

is very different than 13 and under unto the law. 13 and under becomes rape of a minor child, not statutory rape. I can't believe that people in this nation need to be educated about this, and why there is the distinction.

Should a 10 year old, or an 11 year old suddenly decide they want to have sex and be wise enough to make decisions about bearing children? For heaven's sake. There is a line. The courts decided it, and 12 is not at that line. There is no consent possible at 12.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
65. There are lots of instances of this happening - many with happy endings, many with bad endings.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 03:37 PM
Apr 2013

I'm sorry your family had to go through this. It sounds like your Niece would have had a tough go even without the pregnancy.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»My Niece was 14 years old