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Cheap_Trick

(3,918 posts)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:51 PM Apr 2013

FWIW re: Chained CPI from "The Left Wing Cafe" on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Left-Wing-Cafe/183939961686325?group_id=0

Evan Geraniotis

Important clarifications on the misrepresentation by both the left and the right of the Chained-CPI Obama proposal provided by my friend Nicholas J. Evancik:
[This was aired on the "Federal News Network" a DC Radio station run by government employees about government (but not a part of government)]
- "Chained-CPI is only activated when a retirees total retirement income hits 35,000 dollars. 90 percent of retirees rely totally on Social Security Income for retirement and the top Social Security payment is 34,500 dollars a year and to earn that you must have earned 106,000 dollars a year and so paid the maximum amount in payroll taxes. In essence, the Chained CPI will only be used when a person has earned more than 100,000 dollars a year for their work life and also have additional retirement income such as pensions, on top of the much higher than average work income than 85 percent of working Americans...at the bottom end Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500...
- Obama's plan also exempts Supplemental Social Security, which is given to low end Social Security recipients from being counted as taxable income.
- As it stands, if you earn 18000 a year in Social Security and get an additional 10,000 in Supplemental Social Security, the amount of the total that exceeds 25,000 a year becomes taxable income...Obama's plan exempts supplemental from being counted as "additional income" and chained CPI is only used when the recipient is collecting the maximum Social Security payment and also earning 10,20,30,000 in "capital gains"on investments, or getting generous executive pensions. When their total income exceeds the maximum Social Security payment, chained CPI is applied to their COLA....if all they live on is a Social Security check or get the average pension, which for the average worker, is no more than 8,000 dollars a year, their COLA would not be chained, but what is currently used.
- Obama has snuck in "means testing" by a back door route and the GOP is furious, because it's basically a "tax the top two percent" approach"




This is merely relaying a post.
50 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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FWIW re: Chained CPI from "The Left Wing Cafe" on Facebook (Original Post) Cheap_Trick Apr 2013 OP
Help the vulnerable while making the rest of us become the vulnerable. madfloridian Apr 2013 #1
Not sure that $35,000 deal is true. If it is, I'm even less concerned about ultimate impact of CCPI. Hoyt Apr 2013 #2
This article is just fully out to lunch. Fully. Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #5
I wish they were right about the details, but I don't think so either. Hoyt Apr 2013 #10
If this is true, I'm surprised Obama didn't explain it further... Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #6
This is filled with wild inaccuracies, I will address one of them Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #3
That IS inaccurate. You're right. randome Apr 2013 #8
But that is a HUGE error and a terrible one, for SSI protects the very poorest Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #12
SSI isn't social security; it's supplemental security income, a welfare program funded from income HiPointDem Apr 2013 #16
A blogger said it well: "nobody knows the difference between SSI and SSDI... Recursion Apr 2013 #41
SSI isn't social security; it's supplemental security income, a welfare program funded from income HiPointDem Apr 2013 #14
I'm well aware of that. I used to work for Social Security. randome Apr 2013 #19
my error then. it was unclear which you meant. i'll let it stand though as it's a common HiPointDem Apr 2013 #26
Where did this come from? Downwinder Apr 2013 #4
The current average is 14,760 or 1230 a month Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #7
SS recipients are required to report all income. randome Apr 2013 #9
All Americans have to report all income to IRS, no one getting Social Security has to report Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #17
If you're under full retirement age, you are required to report income on an annual basis. randome Apr 2013 #20
I believe you mean income generated from current employment. Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #25
You may be right about that. randome Apr 2013 #27
I am right about it. I have what is known as passive income. Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #30
The IRS believes to the contrary. They even publish a small booklet in which they explain that. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #23
That's what I said, you report to IRS for tax purposes not SSA for means testing Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #28
I'm sorry. I thought that you said at #17 "All Americans have to report all income to IRS." AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #35
Actually, it depends upon the recipients' filing status, age, and the extent of their gross income. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #21
I think you're talking about tax returns, right? randome Apr 2013 #24
In response to your post, "9. SS recipients are required to report all income," yes, I was AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #32
You're right, there is a difference. randome Apr 2013 #34
And, so that there is no confusion, I am also right that the law does not support the AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #36
You don't know what your talking about Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #15
Did I say 'earned income'? Nope. You did. If you are not retired, and earning income that gets Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #22
SSI Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #29
SSI is not Social Security they are different programs. Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author randome Apr 2013 #33
And then there is SSDI who "also" report earnings (earned income) Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #44
SSDI gingersnaps3219 Apr 2013 #50
This is false. dawg Apr 2013 #11
no means testing. no chained cpi. no division of the income groups who support SS. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #13
Unless you have a credible source you should delete this post. PA Democrat Apr 2013 #18
The top 10% have convinced the left to defend them again? Quel surprise Recursion Apr 2013 #37
That's not what is happening bowens43 Apr 2013 #42
Yes, I know you need to believe that Recursion Apr 2013 #43
Keep pushing for the SS cuts, see what what happens to the dems in 2014. bowens43 Apr 2013 #45
Me? I'm not pushing shit. I think this is a bad idea Recursion Apr 2013 #46
Irrelevant. A cut to Social Security benefits is a cut to social security benefits. bowens43 Apr 2013 #38
Hmm, who to believe? Some internet blogger, MadHound Apr 2013 #39
As I stated at the bottom of the post, I was only relaying it. Cheap_Trick Apr 2013 #40
Lots of patently untrue stuff on Facebook and this is unfortunately one of them. PA Democrat Apr 2013 #47
rules for high income beneficiaries of SS gingersnaps3219 Apr 2013 #48
WIW is zero since it's obviously not true. Should be deleted. cthulu2016 Apr 2013 #49
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. Not sure that $35,000 deal is true. If it is, I'm even less concerned about ultimate impact of CCPI.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:02 PM
Apr 2013

I don't buy the rest of it either. But again -- if it is true, or close to truth -- some folks owe Obama a big apology.
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
5. This article is just fully out to lunch. Fully.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:05 PM
Apr 2013

See my post down thread for example. The author has basic misunderstandings of the system and of terminologies about that system.

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
6. If this is true, I'm surprised Obama didn't explain it further...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:06 PM
Apr 2013

I still believe he has done something to protect the vulnerable, but won't explain it until the Republicans accept it. They are squirming around like 2-year-olds, trying to figure out what he's up to.

If that is true, then I am willing to sit and watch the RW squirm until Obama lays it out on the line for us. It isn't in his nature to hurt the elderly.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
3. This is filled with wild inaccuracies, I will address one of them
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:03 PM
Apr 2013

The article says this:
"As it stands, if you earn 18000 a year in Social Security and get an additional 10,000 in Supplemental Social Security, the amount of the total that exceeds 25,000 a year becomes taxable income..."

But in fact, a person earning 18000 a year in Social Security is far above the earnings level to get Supplemental Security Income. Much less 10K extra.
Any amount of Social Security one gets is subtracted from the already tiny Supplemental payment, it does not increase the payment, save for $20 exempted dollars.
The scenario described is impossible under the system. See the actual facts at the link:
EXAMPLE A – SSI Federal Benefit with only UNEARNED INCOME

Total monthly income = $300 (Social Security benefit)

1) $300 (Social Security benefit)
-20 (Not counted)
=$280 (Countable income)

2) $710 (SSI Federal benefit rate)
-280 (Countable income)
=$430 (SSI Federal benefit)
www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm

][link:http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm|

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
8. That IS inaccurate. You're right.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:09 PM
Apr 2013

But substitute some OTHER income besides SSI and the figures come out the same.

Maybe they're not accurate as reported but it SOUNDS accurate in general terms.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
12. But that is a HUGE error and a terrible one, for SSI protects the very poorest
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:19 PM
Apr 2013

and to couch it as being a way someone clocks an extra 10 grand and enters the taxpayer group is a dangerous to those who need those benefits.
The entire article is filled with half accurate, upside down and backwards assumptions and errors. The average SS benefit is thousands lower than this blogger claims, it goes on and on and on.
Social Security has nothing to do with 'other income' your income taxes might tax SS benefits if you have other income, but that's the IRS's job, not SSA. SSA has no idea if a Social Security beneficiary has other income, it is none of their business and has nothing to do with Social Security.
SSI is means tested, and is all about your other assets and other income. To conflate the two is a huge huge error. An error which could harm the poorest of the poor. Confusion is not an excuse when some blogger takes to the pulpit to preach as authority.
And of course, the author offers not one shred of support for a series of assertions. There is good reason for that.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
16. SSI isn't social security; it's supplemental security income, a welfare program funded from income
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

taxes.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
41. A blogger said it well: "nobody knows the difference between SSI and SSDI...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:59 PM
Apr 2013

... except for the one guy on SSDI, who will take your lung out if you confuse that with SSI."

Supplemental Security Income. Two of those words are false.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
14. SSI isn't social security; it's supplemental security income, a welfare program funded from income
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

taxes.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
19. I'm well aware of that. I used to work for Social Security.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:24 PM
Apr 2013

The article is at least wrong in saying that 10,000 extra dollars can come from SSI if someone is already receiving SS.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
26. my error then. it was unclear which you meant. i'll let it stand though as it's a common
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:32 PM
Apr 2013

misunderstanding & one which sometimes gives people the wrong impression of SS ('my neighbor gets social security just for being a drug addict' kinda thing)

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
4. Where did this come from?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:03 PM
Apr 2013

"current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500... "

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
7. The current average is 14,760 or 1230 a month
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:08 PM
Apr 2013

Social Security has no idea what other income people have, as it is none of their business, so the average is just the average of all beneficiaries, not 'those who only rely on SS'.
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/13/~/average-monthly-social-security-benefit-for-a-retired-worker

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
17. All Americans have to report all income to IRS, no one getting Social Security has to report
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:23 PM
Apr 2013

anything about income to SSA. It is not their business, they can not ask you, it has nothing to do with your benefit. Nothing. It has to do with your taxes.
SS beneficiaries carry no income reporting burdens that wage earning Americans do not have. You are wrong if that is what you are saying.
All income reported for taxation, no reporting at all to SSA. None. At all.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
20. If you're under full retirement age, you are required to report income on an annual basis.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:25 PM
Apr 2013

To SSA.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
25. I believe you mean income generated from current employment.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:30 PM
Apr 2013

Income and 'earned income' are not exactly the same things.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
30. I am right about it. I have what is known as passive income.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:41 PM
Apr 2013

As do many others. It is very confusing, which is why I urge everyone to learn the actual facts as they apply to their own situation and never trust even the agencies themselves. They are often wrong or confused. IRS and SSA and all of them. Know the law that applies to you and enforce it personally.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
28. That's what I said, you report to IRS for tax purposes not SSA for means testing
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:36 PM
Apr 2013

That IRS Pub does not contradict what I said. It supports my point in that income is IRS business. Some work earnings are SSA business, but not all income is SSA business. It is all fucking IRS business, of course. No one said otherwise.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
35. I'm sorry. I thought that you said at #17 "All Americans have to report all income to IRS."
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:52 PM
Apr 2013

The law does not require that. That's covered on page 2 in IRS Pub 501.

I otherwise fully agree with you with respect to the distinction that is made between "earned income" and other income.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
21. Actually, it depends upon the recipients' filing status, age, and the extent of their gross income.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:26 PM
Apr 2013

This is covered on page 2 of IRS Pub 501.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501.pdf

As an example, if the filing status is "married, filing jointly," and if both spouses were 65 or older by the end of 2012, they are not required to report their income from Social Security unless their combined gross income was $21,800 or more.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
24. I think you're talking about tax returns, right?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:29 PM
Apr 2013

If you're under full retirement age, you are required to report to the Social Security Administration (SSA) your annual income and estimate for the following year.

It's called an Annual Earnings Report.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
32. In response to your post, "9. SS recipients are required to report all income," yes, I was
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:48 PM
Apr 2013

talking about whether "SS recipients are required to report all income" on tax returns.

If you were origionally referring to the Annual Report of Earnings which some Social Security recipients are required to file, then I must disagree with your origional statement and your follow up statement. The law makes a distinction between earned income and unearned income. Since you seem to be familiar with the Report, please see the instructions.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
36. And, so that there is no confusion, I am also right that the law does not support the
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:55 PM
Apr 2013

statement, for either the IRS or the Social Security Administration:

"SS recipients are required to report all income"
 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
15. You don't know what your talking about
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

SS most definitely knows of "ANY" "earned income" one receives. They are SS, plus you "need" to report earned income if your receiving SS.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
22. Did I say 'earned income'? Nope. You did. If you are not retired, and earning income that gets
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:28 PM
Apr 2013

reported. Other income streams do not. Rental income, investment returns, royalties, residuals from past work, there are many many sorts of income streams that are not 'earned income' that comes from work you are currently doing. SSA is interested if you are working, but how much money you have coming in is not their business, they have no reason to ask. You'd get the same amount if you had a block of Manhattan apartments paying you rent or nothing but the SS.
So perhaps you should respond to what people write rather than what you think they wrote. Enjoy.

 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
29. SSI
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

"Do I have to report my earnings to Social Security?"

"Yes. If you work and get SSI, then you must report your earnings."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-reporting-earnings.htm

"Supplemental Security Income (or SSI) is a United States government program that provides stipends to low-income people who are either aged (65 or older), blind, or disabled."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Security_Income

"Earned Income is wages, net earnings from self–employment, certain royalties and honoraria, and sheltered workshop payments."

"Unearned Income is all income that is not earned, such as Social Security benefits, pensions, State disability payments, unemployment benefits, interest income, and cash from friends and relatives."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
31. SSI is not Social Security they are different programs.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:46 PM
Apr 2013

SSI is means tested, safety net supplemental income. If you earn money, you lose benefits. This is not true of Social Security. SSI stands for Supplemental Security Income.
So you are talking about an entirely different program. Thanks for playing.

Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #31)

 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
44. And then there is SSDI who "also" report earnings (earned income)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:01 PM
Apr 2013

" Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) "

"SSDI provides benefits to disabled or blind persons who are “insured” by workers’ contributions to the Social Security trust fund. These contributions are based on your earnings (or those of your spouse or parents) as required by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA). Title II of the Social Security Act authorizes SSDI benefits. Your dependents may also be eligible for benefits from your earnings record."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/redbook/eng/overview-disability.htm#a0=0

gingersnaps3219

(2 posts)
50. SSDI
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:34 AM
Apr 2013

SSDI is not "earned" income. It is not listed as "earned" income on the 1040. It is listed separately and only taxed on anything over 34,000. Yes it is a benefit you earn by having so many work credits...it use to be 40 credits with one credit equating to a specific amount of money in order to be eligible, use to be 1 credit equal $700.

I think the issue is that the reform is affecting the higher income recipients of SS by making them pay higher premiums.

dawg

(10,609 posts)
11. This is false.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:18 PM
Apr 2013

If the chained CPI were limited to the conditions indicated in the OP, it would be impossible for it to generate the savings the President's budget proposal indicates. There would also be no need for the "bump" older seniors would receive in order to replace *part* of the benefits they had lost in prior years. Therefore, this is just a ridiculous bit of propaganda.

But for the life of me, I can't understand what purpose propaganda like this is supposed to serve.

PA Democrat

(13,225 posts)
18. Unless you have a credible source you should delete this post.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:24 PM
Apr 2013

The median SS benefit is $14,800 a year, so it is highly improbable that the statement, "Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500," is true.

Here is my source for Median SS benefits:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3261

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
37. The top 10% have convinced the left to defend them again? Quel surprise
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:57 PM
Apr 2013

Who could have seen that coming?

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
42. That's not what is happening
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:00 PM
Apr 2013

we , unlike the DLC corporate clones (or is that clowns) are defending Social Security.

The true believers are perfectly willing to sell all of us out is Obama says it's ok......I find that pathetic

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
45. Keep pushing for the SS cuts, see what what happens to the dems in 2014.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:02 PM
Apr 2013

that was a bone head move by a man who has made a lot of bonehead moves.....

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
46. Me? I'm not pushing shit. I think this is a bad idea
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:05 PM
Apr 2013

That said, if we're going to take money from retirees, the top 10% seem to be the right ones to take it from. Occupy the Nursing Home, and all...

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
38. Irrelevant. A cut to Social Security benefits is a cut to social security benefits.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:58 PM
Apr 2013

Once it becomes ok to slash social security there's no turning back.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
39. Hmm, who to believe? Some internet blogger,
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:59 PM
Apr 2013

Or Robert Reich?
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/commentary/chained-cpi-hurts-seniors

Some internet blogger or the president of NOW?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/obama-chained-cpi-budget_n_3045653.html

Some internet blogger or Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman?
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/desperately-seeking-serious-approval/

Some internet blogger or The Nation?
http://www.thenation.com/blog/173786/top-5-myths-about-chained-cpi-debunked#

Thanks, but I think I'll go with the more reputable source rather than some internet blogger.

 

Cheap_Trick

(3,918 posts)
40. As I stated at the bottom of the post, I was only relaying it.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:59 PM
Apr 2013

Follow the link to the Left Wing Cafe's Facebook page for more info about the source. But I wonder why Boner and the gang haven't pounced on this offer. It's what they've wanted all along, isn't it?

PA Democrat

(13,225 posts)
47. Lots of patently untrue stuff on Facebook and this is unfortunately one of them.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:22 PM
Apr 2013

I think a discussion of the chained CPI deserves a credible source. You know this is only going to stir the pot.

I read the Facebook Post and the factual inaccuarcies are numerous. The worst:


Claims that 'maximum SS is benefit is $34,500/ year.'

WRONG. Per SSA the maximum benefit for 2013 is $2533/ month or $30,396/ year

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/colafacts2013.htm


Claims '90 percent of retirees rely totally on Social Security Income for retirement'

WRONG. Per the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities 24% of beneficiaries Social Security is the sole source of retirement income

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3261

Claims 'Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500...'

WRONG. Please read the following which is a direct cut and paste from the Whitehouse's website.


Benefit Enhancement for the Very Elderly and Others Who Rely on Social Security for Long Periods of Time

•The benefit enhancement would be equal to 5% of the average retiree benefit, or about $800 per year if the proposal were in effect today.

•It would phase in over 10 years, beginning at age 76, or (for other beneficiaries, such as those receiving Disability Insurance) in the 15th year of benefit receipt.

•The benefit enhancement would begin in 2020, phasing in over 10 years for those 76 or older (or in their 15th year of eligibility or beyond) in that year.

•Beneficiaries who continued to be on the program for an additional 10 years would be eligible for a second benefit enhancement, starting at age 95 in the case of a retired beneficiary.
Because of the benefit enhancement for the very elderly, the Budget proposal would not increase the poverty rate for Social Security beneficiaries, and would slightly reduce poverty among the very elderly according to SSA estimates.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/factsheet/chained-cpi-protections

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