General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFWIW re: Chained CPI from "The Left Wing Cafe" on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Left-Wing-Cafe/183939961686325?group_id=0Evan Geraniotis
Important clarifications on the misrepresentation by both the left and the right of the Chained-CPI Obama proposal provided by my friend Nicholas J. Evancik:
[This was aired on the "Federal News Network" a DC Radio station run by government employees about government (but not a part of government)]
- "Chained-CPI is only activated when a retirees total retirement income hits 35,000 dollars. 90 percent of retirees rely totally on Social Security Income for retirement and the top Social Security payment is 34,500 dollars a year and to earn that you must have earned 106,000 dollars a year and so paid the maximum amount in payroll taxes. In essence, the Chained CPI will only be used when a person has earned more than 100,000 dollars a year for their work life and also have additional retirement income such as pensions, on top of the much higher than average work income than 85 percent of working Americans...at the bottom end Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500...
- Obama's plan also exempts Supplemental Social Security, which is given to low end Social Security recipients from being counted as taxable income.
- As it stands, if you earn 18000 a year in Social Security and get an additional 10,000 in Supplemental Social Security, the amount of the total that exceeds 25,000 a year becomes taxable income...Obama's plan exempts supplemental from being counted as "additional income" and chained CPI is only used when the recipient is collecting the maximum Social Security payment and also earning 10,20,30,000 in "capital gains"on investments, or getting generous executive pensions. When their total income exceeds the maximum Social Security payment, chained CPI is applied to their COLA....if all they live on is a Social Security check or get the average pension, which for the average worker, is no more than 8,000 dollars a year, their COLA would not be chained, but what is currently used.
- Obama has snuck in "means testing" by a back door route and the GOP is furious, because it's basically a "tax the top two percent" approach"
This is merely relaying a post.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Is that what this is?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I don't buy the rest of it either. But again -- if it is true, or close to truth -- some folks owe Obama a big apology.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)See my post down thread for example. The author has basic misunderstandings of the system and of terminologies about that system.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)I still believe he has done something to protect the vulnerable, but won't explain it until the Republicans accept it. They are squirming around like 2-year-olds, trying to figure out what he's up to.
If that is true, then I am willing to sit and watch the RW squirm until Obama lays it out on the line for us. It isn't in his nature to hurt the elderly.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The article says this:
"As it stands, if you earn 18000 a year in Social Security and get an additional 10,000 in Supplemental Social Security, the amount of the total that exceeds 25,000 a year becomes taxable income..."
But in fact, a person earning 18000 a year in Social Security is far above the earnings level to get Supplemental Security Income. Much less 10K extra.
Any amount of Social Security one gets is subtracted from the already tiny Supplemental payment, it does not increase the payment, save for $20 exempted dollars.
The scenario described is impossible under the system. See the actual facts at the link:
EXAMPLE A SSI Federal Benefit with only UNEARNED INCOME
Total monthly income = $300 (Social Security benefit)
1) $300 (Social Security benefit)
-20 (Not counted)
=$280 (Countable income)
2) $710 (SSI Federal benefit rate)
-280 (Countable income)
=$430 (SSI Federal benefit)
www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm
][link:http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm|
randome
(34,845 posts)But substitute some OTHER income besides SSI and the figures come out the same.
Maybe they're not accurate as reported but it SOUNDS accurate in general terms.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and to couch it as being a way someone clocks an extra 10 grand and enters the taxpayer group is a dangerous to those who need those benefits.
The entire article is filled with half accurate, upside down and backwards assumptions and errors. The average SS benefit is thousands lower than this blogger claims, it goes on and on and on.
Social Security has nothing to do with 'other income' your income taxes might tax SS benefits if you have other income, but that's the IRS's job, not SSA. SSA has no idea if a Social Security beneficiary has other income, it is none of their business and has nothing to do with Social Security.
SSI is means tested, and is all about your other assets and other income. To conflate the two is a huge huge error. An error which could harm the poorest of the poor. Confusion is not an excuse when some blogger takes to the pulpit to preach as authority.
And of course, the author offers not one shred of support for a series of assertions. There is good reason for that.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)taxes.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)... except for the one guy on SSDI, who will take your lung out if you confuse that with SSI."
Supplemental Security Income. Two of those words are false.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)taxes.
randome
(34,845 posts)The article is at least wrong in saying that 10,000 extra dollars can come from SSI if someone is already receiving SS.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)misunderstanding & one which sometimes gives people the wrong impression of SS ('my neighbor gets social security just for being a drug addict' kinda thing)
Downwinder
(12,869 posts)"current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500... "
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Social Security has no idea what other income people have, as it is none of their business, so the average is just the average of all beneficiaries, not 'those who only rely on SS'.
http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/13/~/average-monthly-social-security-benefit-for-a-retired-worker
randome
(34,845 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)anything about income to SSA. It is not their business, they can not ask you, it has nothing to do with your benefit. Nothing. It has to do with your taxes.
SS beneficiaries carry no income reporting burdens that wage earning Americans do not have. You are wrong if that is what you are saying.
All income reported for taxation, no reporting at all to SSA. None. At all.
randome
(34,845 posts)To SSA.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Income and 'earned income' are not exactly the same things.
randome
(34,845 posts)The terminology gets very convoluted.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)As do many others. It is very confusing, which is why I urge everyone to learn the actual facts as they apply to their own situation and never trust even the agencies themselves. They are often wrong or confused. IRS and SSA and all of them. Know the law that applies to you and enforce it personally.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)IRS Pub 501, page 2.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501.pdf
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)That IRS Pub does not contradict what I said. It supports my point in that income is IRS business. Some work earnings are SSA business, but not all income is SSA business. It is all fucking IRS business, of course. No one said otherwise.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)The law does not require that. That's covered on page 2 in IRS Pub 501.
I otherwise fully agree with you with respect to the distinction that is made between "earned income" and other income.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)This is covered on page 2 of IRS Pub 501.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501.pdf
As an example, if the filing status is "married, filing jointly," and if both spouses were 65 or older by the end of 2012, they are not required to report their income from Social Security unless their combined gross income was $21,800 or more.
randome
(34,845 posts)If you're under full retirement age, you are required to report to the Social Security Administration (SSA) your annual income and estimate for the following year.
It's called an Annual Earnings Report.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)talking about whether "SS recipients are required to report all income" on tax returns.
If you were origionally referring to the Annual Report of Earnings which some Social Security recipients are required to file, then I must disagree with your origional statement and your follow up statement. The law makes a distinction between earned income and unearned income. Since you seem to be familiar with the Report, please see the instructions.
randome
(34,845 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)statement, for either the IRS or the Social Security Administration:
"SS recipients are required to report all income"
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)SS most definitely knows of "ANY" "earned income" one receives. They are SS, plus you "need" to report earned income if your receiving SS.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)reported. Other income streams do not. Rental income, investment returns, royalties, residuals from past work, there are many many sorts of income streams that are not 'earned income' that comes from work you are currently doing. SSA is interested if you are working, but how much money you have coming in is not their business, they have no reason to ask. You'd get the same amount if you had a block of Manhattan apartments paying you rent or nothing but the SS.
So perhaps you should respond to what people write rather than what you think they wrote. Enjoy.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)"Do I have to report my earnings to Social Security?"
"Yes. If you work and get SSI, then you must report your earnings."
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-reporting-earnings.htm
"Supplemental Security Income (or SSI) is a United States government program that provides stipends to low-income people who are either aged (65 or older), blind, or disabled."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Security_Income
"Earned Income is wages, net earnings from selfemployment, certain royalties and honoraria, and sheltered workshop payments."
"Unearned Income is all income that is not earned, such as Social Security benefits, pensions, State disability payments, unemployment benefits, interest income, and cash from friends and relatives."
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/ssi/text-income-ussi.htm
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)SSI is means tested, safety net supplemental income. If you earn money, you lose benefits. This is not true of Social Security. SSI stands for Supplemental Security Income.
So you are talking about an entirely different program. Thanks for playing.
Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #31)
randome This message was self-deleted by its author.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)" Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) "
"SSDI provides benefits to disabled or blind persons who are insured by workers contributions to the Social Security trust fund. These contributions are based on your earnings (or those of your spouse or parents) as required by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA). Title II of the Social Security Act authorizes SSDI benefits. Your dependents may also be eligible for benefits from your earnings record."
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/redbook/eng/overview-disability.htm#a0=0
gingersnaps3219
(2 posts)SSDI is not "earned" income. It is not listed as "earned" income on the 1040. It is listed separately and only taxed on anything over 34,000. Yes it is a benefit you earn by having so many work credits...it use to be 40 credits with one credit equating to a specific amount of money in order to be eligible, use to be 1 credit equal $700.
I think the issue is that the reform is affecting the higher income recipients of SS by making them pay higher premiums.
dawg
(10,609 posts)If the chained CPI were limited to the conditions indicated in the OP, it would be impossible for it to generate the savings the President's budget proposal indicates. There would also be no need for the "bump" older seniors would receive in order to replace *part* of the benefits they had lost in prior years. Therefore, this is just a ridiculous bit of propaganda.
But for the life of me, I can't understand what purpose propaganda like this is supposed to serve.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)The median SS benefit is $14,800 a year, so it is highly improbable that the statement, "Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500," is true.
Here is my source for Median SS benefits:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3261
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Who could have seen that coming?
bowens43
(16,064 posts)we , unlike the DLC corporate clones (or is that clowns) are defending Social Security.
The true believers are perfectly willing to sell all of us out is Obama says it's ok......I find that pathetic
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Carry on, tovarisch.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)that was a bone head move by a man who has made a lot of bonehead moves.....
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That said, if we're going to take money from retirees, the top 10% seem to be the right ones to take it from. Occupy the Nursing Home, and all...
bowens43
(16,064 posts)Once it becomes ok to slash social security there's no turning back.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Or Robert Reich?
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/commentary/chained-cpi-hurts-seniors
Some internet blogger or the president of NOW?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09/obama-chained-cpi-budget_n_3045653.html
Some internet blogger or Nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman?
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/desperately-seeking-serious-approval/
Some internet blogger or The Nation?
http://www.thenation.com/blog/173786/top-5-myths-about-chained-cpi-debunked#
Thanks, but I think I'll go with the more reputable source rather than some internet blogger.
Cheap_Trick
(3,918 posts)Follow the link to the Left Wing Cafe's Facebook page for more info about the source. But I wonder why Boner and the gang haven't pounced on this offer. It's what they've wanted all along, isn't it?
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)I think a discussion of the chained CPI deserves a credible source. You know this is only going to stir the pot.
I read the Facebook Post and the factual inaccuarcies are numerous. The worst:
Claims that 'maximum SS is benefit is $34,500/ year.'
WRONG. Per SSA the maximum benefit for 2013 is $2533/ month or $30,396/ year
http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/colafacts2013.htm
Claims '90 percent of retirees rely totally on Social Security Income for retirement'
WRONG. Per the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities 24% of beneficiaries Social Security is the sole source of retirement income
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3261
Claims 'Obama is raising the current average Social Security Check for those who rely on nothing but Social Security from 17,900 to 20,500...'
WRONG. Please read the following which is a direct cut and paste from the Whitehouse's website.
Benefit Enhancement for the Very Elderly and Others Who Rely on Social Security for Long Periods of Time
The benefit enhancement would be equal to 5% of the average retiree benefit, or about $800 per year if the proposal were in effect today.
It would phase in over 10 years, beginning at age 76, or (for other beneficiaries, such as those receiving Disability Insurance) in the 15th year of benefit receipt.
The benefit enhancement would begin in 2020, phasing in over 10 years for those 76 or older (or in their 15th year of eligibility or beyond) in that year.
Beneficiaries who continued to be on the program for an additional 10 years would be eligible for a second benefit enhancement, starting at age 95 in the case of a retired beneficiary.
Because of the benefit enhancement for the very elderly, the Budget proposal would not increase the poverty rate for Social Security beneficiaries, and would slightly reduce poverty among the very elderly according to SSA estimates.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/factsheet/chained-cpi-protections