US rape culture does exist. Statistics prove it.

[BainsBane]

Last edited Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:15 PM - Edit history (2)

One survey of reported rapes



http://www.infographichub.com/law/picture-world-rape-statistics/


This other survey ranks the US number 1 in reported rapes.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/quick-click/which-country-has-the-highest-reported-incidents-rape-data

This Wikipedia link provides numbers from a wider array of countries, but of course reported rapes only are included. The US hovers around 9-10 in that survey, depending on the year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Why deny the existence of something that is patently obvious? What purpose does it serve?

[Kelvin Mace]

1. While I agree that we have a rape problem

I question numbers for countries like Egypt, Syria, and Azerbaijan as being under-reported.

[BainsBane]

2. I think it's clear there is widespread underreporting

and they don't even have statistics for what we might imagine are the worst offenders, like the Congo.

I posted this as a response in another thread where the OP denies the existence of a rape culture in the US. Someone asked me to make it an OP, so I did.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. What you've actually got is evidence of anti-rape culture in the US, I think. NT.

[BainsBane]

40. rape culture

Rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison systems where prison rape is common and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[1][2][3][4][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

The US obviously fits these criteria.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. Can we also posit the existence of anti-rape culture?

Anti-rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are severely criminalized and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media scorn, abhor, and punish rape.

That would describe our formal legal system, at least. You know, the one where sexual assault is a felony, punishable by years if not decades in prison.

[BainsBane]

53. if you know where that exists, I'd love to see it

Sounds like a good system. You mean somewhere were more than 6% of rapists are punished?

Are you implying that anti-rape culture would be a bad thing?

[Comrade Grumpy]

58. Try your local court house. Rape cases get tried all the time.

I don't know where the 6% figure comes from, but I can the numbers shrinking at each stage of the process.

For example (and these are just pulled out of the air numbers):

100 = universe of all alleged rapes

30 = number of rapes that are reported

15 = number of reported rapes that are prosecuted

10 = number of prosecuted rapes where convictions or guilty pleas are won

6 = number of convicted rapists sentenced to prison

Similarly, what percentage of non-rape assaulters or burglars are punished? Many people get away with various crimes, for various reasons. For any given offense, the universe of all incidents is going to be much greater than the number of people convicted for those incidents.

Why would you think I'm implying that anti-rape culture would be a bad thing? That's just weird.

[BainsBane]

62. I think it based on your response

and the fact you think 6% is high. Check your own stats on other crimes. You don't appear to see rape as a problem. I find that strange. I would think all Americans would want to see violent crime diminished as much as possible.

[Comrade Grumpy]

114. Who said I think 6% is high? Not me.

There are 270,000 sexual assaults a year. I think that is a problem. I am somewhat soothed that the apparent long-term trend is downwards (by 58% since 1995 according to BJS).

I don't have time to check on clearance rates for other crimes right now, but I am confident they are only a small fraction of all reported crimes. In a perfect world, there would be no crime, and no criminal would get away with his crime. We don't live in a perfect world.

[BainsBane]

126. These are not random crimes

They are violent crimes. The difference is no one asks someone beaten up in a bar what they were wearing, or whether they led the other party on, or posts pictures of them on social media shaming them and calling them sluts. If someone posts something about a murder, men don't respond with LOL and popcorn emoticons as they do in threads about rape. They don't deny murder is a problem. I have yet to see a member of DU invent a straw man argument about murder as is they do to trivialize rape. When someone talks about murder, men (I'm talking about those who themselves are not rape survivors because we do have a number of male rape survivors on this site) don't try to paint themselves as the victim because some woman had the nerve to discuss rape, as for some strange reason is the tendency of a few members whenever sexual assault is discussed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

189. Take a look in Steubenville.

You know, that place where some people committed rape and it was reported, it became a national scandal, and they were ultimately prosecuted and convicted?

Like every country, the USA has a minority of people who don't get that rape is wrong. But the overwhelmingly vast majority - probably more than in most countries, but possibly fewer than in many, especially other Western ones - of the populace think that rape is one of the most contemptible acts possible.

And not recognising that fact will severely hamper attempts to reduce the incidence of rape, because you'll be asking the wrong question - "what do we need to do less of?" rather than "what do we need to do more of?"

[snooper2]

20. reporting is higher in countries where your family doesn't fucking kill you

because you were raped...

FYI

[Kelvin Mace]

31. I agree we have a rape culture

But just wanted to point out that some of the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.

There has been a lot of debate about Sweden's high numbers with some people wondering about how a very progressive country like Sweden can have such a high incidence of rape. Arguments fall into two categories:

1) Sweden is better at keeping stats. All countries have more rape than they admit, Sweden is just more thorough and honest about it.

2) Sweden has a broader definition of rape than other countries.

[BainsBane]

36. good points

And they may have better prosecution.

[Buzz Clik]

4. +1

Rape is a global problem. Worse some places than others. It seems to me the US is dead center.

I am curious to find out what a "rape culture" is.

[niyad]

5. google is your friend

[Buzz Clik]

11. Did you just make that up?

I want the BainBrain's answer, not Google's.

[niyad]

18. none of us are going to play your little game

[Bernardo de La Paz]

56. You didn't ask for BainBrain's answer, you asked for an answer and got a good one. GiYF. nt

[Buzz Clik]

69. I received no answer at all. What I got was a smart-assed comment.

Gratefully, I received the answer I was seeking from the author of the OP. And, she was gracious enough to not complain about doing so. It might be a trend...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

83. Writing clearly is a trend to encourage.

If you wanted an answer from a specific person, ask them specifically either by PM (private message) or by addressing them by name.

If however, you publicly ask a question in a public thread in a public forum, it would be foolish to expect that the only reply would come from the OP of the thread.

It's only logical. Clear thinking is also a trend to be encouraged.

[Buzz Clik]

96. I'd have been happy if niya had given me an answer, but she decided to act out instead.

I don't have to worry about it anymore.

If you have another comment, feel free. I'm done here.

[niyad]

135. as I said, we don't play your little games, they are long past boring. acting out? wow. .just, wow

Sister Militant
AC, PHD, REMDI95
Blessed Order of the Sisterhood of Perpetual Outrage

[niyad]

138. don't bother. some people are not actually interested in discussion, but s***-stirring.

[BainsBane]

107. I've twice answered your question.

[Buzz Clik]

127. Was not talking about you, BainsBane.You DID give me an answer, and I ackowledged it.

However, the first response to my question about "what is a 'rape culture'" was from someone else who said, "Google is your friend." That was my source of annoyance, not you.

[BainsBane]

130. the main thing is you got an answer

I hope that clarifies things.

[Buzz Clik]

131. I was happy several hours ago.

Others seem to be annoyed.

[BainsBane]

141. Timing often gets overlooked in threads. Nt

[BainsBane]

12. sorry I have to leave the house

but essentially it's a culture than enables rape, blames victims and fails to prosecute offenders.

[MattBaggins]

14. Wine coolers

[Kelvin Mace]

158. "Rape culture"

means that the US has a culture which tends to downplay rape, question its frequency, attack the victim and make excuses for the rapist.

[JaneyVee]

7. Under-reporting happens here in the U.S. as well. That would only drag us up on the list.

[Buzz Clik]

16. That's probably true everwhere.

Do you think the US is getting better at reporting?

[dsc]

48. Not necessarily

Take two places. Place A reports 15 rapes per 100,000 while place B reports 5 rapes per 100,000. Now assume both places under report. A under reports by a factor of 1.5 while B under reports by a factor of 10. That would mean that Place A actually has 22.5 rapes per 100,000 while place B actually has 50. I have to think that both Egypt and Syria are under reporting rape to a much greater degree than virtually anyone else on that map.

[Kelvin Mace]

157. Agreed

But I think Egypt and Syria are DEFINITELY faking their numbers.

[arely staircase]

10. the stats don't back up the OP's claim

Sweden is the biggest "rape culture" on the planet? LOL

or could it be that sweden and the US are relatively progressive places in terms of women's rights and therefore their female citizens' willingness to report rape.

[BainsBane]

42. the stats are reported rapes

Not rape culture. Wow.

[defacto7]

43. The problem with this chart is

that the definition of rape is different in every country. There is no single definition that makes this chart accurate as a comparison indicator. Mores make a huge difference in how rape is defined.

In Sweden, consensual sex without a condom can be considered legal rape. Condom breakage can be considered rape in certain circumstances.

[gollygee]

82. She isn't trying to prove who has "the biggest rape culture"

Only trying to show that we do have one. It isn't a competition. I don't know how many, if any, countries in the world don't have a culture that allows and perpetuates rape.

[arely staircase]

133. if the map is evidence of rape culture, as the op claims, then sweden has the biggest

of course Egypt and Afghanistan would have far less of a rape culture, if the statistics relied upon by this map, are accurate.

it is the op that asks we look to the map for evidence of rape culture - I guess we just aren't to look too closely, because it doesn't withstand more than a cursory gaze.

[gollygee]

134. I thought she used that

to show that we have a lot of rapes, not to show who had the biggest rape culture by assuming the country with the most reported rapes had the biggest one. I didn't think she was intending us to make a competition but just to notice that the US also has a substantial problem with rape.

[arely staircase]

136. the op claims it is evidence of "rape culture"

"it" being a map that compares reported rapes by country. the united states has one of the highest incidences of reported rape based on population (second only to Sweden). when one starts to actually look at the comparisons, one realizes how problematic they are - as countries like Egypt have lower rates of reported rape than Sweden. I don't doubt that this is true. But it proves (if anything) the opposite of the op's thesis.

In other words the map, if it shows anything, is that the United States and Sweden have fairly egalitarian and pro-woman societies and government policies as compared to places like Egypt where rapes are rarely reported.

It doesn't show a rape culture; it shows a more (relatively) enlightened one.

[gollygee]

137. It shows we have a lot of rapes

More of ours are reported, but I think her point (she'll have to say what her point was but what I assumed her point was) was that we have enough rape that it must be supported by the culture in some way to have that number.

[arely staircase]

139. then why posts a comparison if comparisons aren't to be made?

eom

[gollygee]

140. I don't think it was the best choice of graphic

But I didn't see it as a competition. I saw it as "the US ALSO has a problem."

[smirkymonkey]

147. Yeah, I thought that was kind of interesting.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Kelvin Mace]

156. As I noted in another post

there have been a lot of questions about Sweden's numbers. The explanations fall into two camps:

1) Sweden is more thorough in its crime statistics

2) Sweden doesn't have multiple types of sexual assault classification which muddies the water, i.e. rape is rape, not "statutory rape", or "third degree aggravated sexual assault".

I do agree that we the US still has a rape problem. I also am very suspicious that Egypt, Syria, etc, are not accurately reporting rapes, so their status as "low rape" countries is suspect.

[Buzz Clik]

3. What do those statistics prove?

Please explain.

Then, please define "rape culture" for me.

[BainsBane]

8. They prove lots of people are raped in this country

As for what rape culture means, ask Unrepentant Liberal http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022666059

[Buzz Clik]

15. Agreed. One rape is far too many.

But, the statistics show that the US is doing a reasonable job of reporting rapes but we have a long way to go in stopping the crime.

As for the definition of "rape culture", Unrepentant Liberal didn't provide a definition at all. Do YOU have a definition of "rape culture"? It seems to me that if you are going to use the term, you should be willing to define it.

[BainsBane]

34. my response was to his thread

Niyad asked me to post this as an OP. I was out the door at the time. Unfortunately my car didn't start so I'm now waiting for AAA.

I answered the question in brief in another post in this thread, but here is a definition from Wikipedia. It's clear we qualify.

Rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison systems where prison rape is common and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[1][2][3][4][5]

Only a fraction of rapes are reported in this country, while tens of thousands, if not more, rape kits go untested around the country. Only a tiny fraction of rapists are convicted.

[Buzz Clik]

35. I hope you are wrong about the US being a rape culture.

I hope we're getting better.

[BainsBane]

39. How could I be wrong?

We clearly are. We fit all those criteria listed in the Wikipedia article. Incidence of rape in the general population, however, do seem to be declining. There was a recently released survey of reported rapes than indicate as much. I suspect that may not the case in prisons, but I don't really know.

[Buzz Clik]

173. I believe you are correct that there are pockets of this society ...

... that can certainly be qualified as a "rape culture." Required are: disregard for women, hateful attitudes, and a willingness to engage in or justify abuse.

Can I think of such a subculture? Yeah...

[redqueen]

41. How can this even be in doubt?

Did anyone miss the significance of the coverage of the Steubenville case?

Coverage which is more typical than not?

The majority in the US, just like almost everywhere else, treats some rapes as an outrage, but most as understandable if not defensible.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. We are getting better (social media feeding frenzies notwithstanding).

http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, relying on victimization surveys, not reported rapes, the incidence of rape in the US has declined 58% between 1995 and 2010. There are still 270,000 rapes a year, though.

[BainsBane]

54. social media feeding frenzies on victims

to shame them than then result in suicide. There were two to three such cases in the press this week alone.

[Comrade Grumpy]

59. And that behavior is very ugly and horrid. No argument there.

I don't know how widespread it is, though.

And there were likely about 16,000 suicides last week (based on Wikipedia saying 800,000 a year in the US).

Wow, maybe we have a suicide culture.

[BainsBane]

108. What is your problem?

We live in a highly violent, militaristic culture. We have one of the highest homicide rates in the world. Rape is also a common crime. The difference is people don't feel a need to trivialize homicide as they do rape. We certainly do have a rape culture and evidence of it is in the two threads on the subject today.

[In_The_Wind]

164. Maybe we have a rape culture because of people like you making light of rape.

Have you no compassion for the victim of rape!

[In_The_Wind]

163. Rape culture is growing because of apathy.

It's easier to blame the victim than to accept the truth ... too many want to look the other way.

Blaming the victim is raping him or her again.
This gives power to the slut shammers and the rapist to continue their torture.
Rape isn't about sex. It's about the desire to cause harm.

[niyad]

9. we are not going to play your game this morning.

[arely staircase]

13. you will not get anything worthwhile

in terms of an answer to either question.

[niyad]

6. k and r for a thoroughly depressing graphic

[hfojvt]

17. except that I see Canada as one of the lowest

and the other day somebody was using a Canadian case as an example of rape culture.

Further, why do 28.6 out of 100,000 make USA a rape culture when non-rape seems to be 99,971.4 out of 100,000?

[BainsBane]

29. So the idea that some women are not raped

Last edited Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)

means it's not a rape culture to you?
All these statistics mean to me is that rape is not as common in Canada as the US, not that the experience of being raped and shamed is any less horrific there.

Also keep in mind these are only reported rapes. The actual numbers are closer to 25% of all American women.

[Bay Boy]

119. Can I assume you mean 25% lifetime?

Whereas the stats in the OP are on an annual basis.

And if I am doing my math correctly that doesn't add up. Based on these numbers I get a 2% chance lifetime
of a woman getting raped. That is even using a 100 year lifetime and not discounting ages of rape to be less likely.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

171. These numbers are only reported rapes - they're nothing to do with actual incidence of rape.

It's widely believed, I think with considerable evidence (although I couldn't quote it) that only a very small fraction of rapes are reported.

One in 50 women reporting being raped at some point her lifetime sounds about right to me.

[Posteritatis]

32. The fact that we're better off up here doesn't mean there isn't *massive* room for improvement. (nt)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. DU Rec

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. Arguably the worst-labelled and most misleading infographic I've seen for a long time.

It's counting reported rapes, while labelling it as actual number of rapes. If anything, the correlation looks to be negative - countries which do more to tackle rape get it reported more often, and hence come out looking worse.

I would suggest that anyone who thinks this is a useful guide to incidence of rape take a look at

Belgium
Iceland
New Zealand

Egypt
Haiti
Kenya
Sierra Leone
Uganda

Do you really believe that countries in the first list are among those with the highest rates of rape in the world, while those in the second list have relatively low rates? Do you really believe that South Africa would score higher than Italy on a plot of rates of rape, as opposed to rates of reporting?

[BainsBane]

37. Could anyone imagine it was anything but reported rapes?

Why would so many countries have no information?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

68. I think it's clearly intended to trick people into thinking that.

The big headline "world according to rape", and the red/green colourcoding, are clearly both intended to trick the reader into thinking that red countries have more rapes than green countries.

[DirkGently]

80. Because people would assume rapes that we don't know about were included?

Sorry, but there's nothing sneaky about a report that's limited to things that have been reported. They're pretty much all like that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

91. You yourself make that very error in a nearby post... N.T.

[DirkGently]

45. Under your reasoning, no rape data should be counted, then?

We're kind of stuck with "reported rapes," just as we are for anything else. That's hardly a basis to dismiss the information, much less purport to invert it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

66. This kind of comparative data is worse than useless without lots of asterisks.

*** This country sees lots of honor killings of rape victims who report the crime.

*** This country has a highly developed criminal justice system and equal rights for women.

*** This country's government is suspected of manipulating data on rape and other crimes.

[DirkGently]

70. Doesn't it show what it purports to show -- reported rapes per XXX?

Stands to reason America's rape problem isn't honor killings or genocide-by-rape. While I don't have a problem with pointing out that this particular data inherently misses other types of issues, I think it's unhelpful to suggest that it's "worse then useless" to show that America has a huge incidence of rape per unit of population. It's not a race, or information that's only relevant on a relative scale.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

88. You very effectively disprove your own point, I'm afraid.

In your header, you say "Doesn't it show what it purports to show -- reported rapes per XXX?"

The answer is that yes, it does show that, but what the header, the colour-coding, and the OP's presentation all *purport* is that it shows "rapes per XXX", or at least a number that correlates reasonably with that.

You yourself fall into exactly this trap midway through your post - you say that is "shows that America has a huge incidence of rape per unit of population" - which is precisely what it dishonestly purports to show, but not something it actually provides any evidence for*.



*Footnote added on edit: beyond a lower bound, of course - you could legitimately argue that the incidence of reported rape in the USA would make it huge even if there were no others. But if by "huge" you mean "huge compared to other countries" then the data does not provide any evidence for that.

[DirkGently]

94. Whoops. You noticed the hole in your own argument a little late, eh?

The report shows exactly what it purports to show -- reported rapes per unit of population. There is no way to characterize that as misleading.

Your argument is that we must assume that unreported rapes -- a dataset that by definition does not exist -- would undercut the relative rates of rape as they appear on the chart.

That is a rhetorical sleight-of-hand that could be applied to any kind of reporting on any kind of crime. "Well, if it showed the incidents we don't know about, the results would be different."

That is a non-statement. It's an assumption based on the fallacy that reports must include non-existent data.

Would you raise the same objection to a chart showing muggings per unit of population? Your conceit would apply equally well, wouldn't it?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

97. I've put an answer to most of this in post 81.

My argument is indeed pretty much exactly that unreported rapes would undercut the relative rates of rape as they appear on the chart.

1) #Committed rapes = #Reported Rapes + #Unreported rapes
2) #Reported rapes and #Uneported rapes are very poorly correlated - the correlation may even be negative.
3) #Unreported rapes is much, much larger than #Reported rapes
4) #Commited rapes is therefore very poorly correlated with # Reported rapes - the correlation may even be negative.

Do you disagree with any of these four points? 1,3 and 4 are all pretty much unassailable, and even a very brief examination of the chard in the OP should make 2 obvious, I hope - if it doesn't, post 81 may convince you.

1) is certainly also true of mugging. 2) may or may not be, but 3) probably isn't, and hence 4) probably isn't either.

[DirkGently]

98. Do you not understand why we don't put non-existent data in charts?

I'm just going to let you think about that one for a while.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

101. Do you not understand why we don't claim charts show things they don't?

As I have *already said*, *repeatedly*, presenting a chart of reported rapes is a legitimate and potentially useful thing to do, as you say.

What I have also said, and you appear to be trying not to think about, is that using a chart of one thing - the number of rapes reported - as a guide to another thing - the number of rapes committed - is only as legitimate as the correlation between the two things.

When the two things are uncorrelated, you have no data about the latter. You can draw whatever conclusions you like about the number of rapes reported, but you *cannot* draw any conclusions whatsoever about the number of rapes committed.

Or rather, you can, obviously, but your conclusions will, quite literally, be as likely to be wrong as they would be if you'd made them entirely at random (or worse than that, if the correlation is negative).


This isn't a matter of personal judgement, or politics, or anything else, it's pure mathematics.

[DirkGently]

105. So, all charts showing "reported" cases of anything is misleading?

By your logic, anything showing "reported cases," requires ... what? A disclaimer that there are also unreported cases?

I'm going to help you and acknowledge what someone else pointed out, which is that we know that there are many unreported cases of rape, more in some places than others, which would be a helpful piece of information.

But there is no way to justly argue that a chart with just reported cases is inherently misleading. That is the typical mode of reporting all types of crime, is it not?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

115. An indication if reported and unreported cases are especially poorly correlated.

First of all, before I answer your question: I'm worried that we may be talking at cross-purposes. I think that 1)

1) The core of what we're arguing about is "How can we estimate the relative incidence of rape in different countries?"
2) I think that you are arguing that that reported incidence of rape and actual incidence of rape exhibit non-trivial correlation, and hence that we can use reported levels of rape as a factor when making such estimates.
3) I am arguing that reported and actual incidence probably do not have meaningful positive correlation, and therefore that levels of reporting are of no value when estimating actual incidence.

(There's also a side argument about the need to add disclaimers when labelling charts, which I'll address below)

Do you think that that's a fair summary of the argument?




To answer your question, in general, reports of something can be used as a decent estimator of how common it is. In those cases, you can legitimately label your chart "estimate of X", or even just "X", and leave out the word "reported" altogether, and other people can use it as such, and take it as read that there's some inaccuracy.

However, if for some reason reports and incidence *don't* correlate - if, for example, you're trying to estimate the relative populations of the Lesser-Spotted Stealth Monkey, the Greater Somewhat-Camouflaged Baboon, and Durrell's Obvious Gibbons, by going and looking for them - then you have a moral obligation to highlight this lack of correlation, and other people cannot use your data as anything other than "this is what we saw" - which may have some value for some purposes, but which can't add much to the accuracy of an estimate of the relative population sizes.

A chart with just reported cases is not inherently misleading, provided it's labelled as such. What *is* misleading is not highlighting that reports and incidence are not correlated, if they aren't. And in most cases they will be, but in this particular case it seems that they aren't.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

106. Also, I've been doing some more calculations.

30 rapes per 100,000 people per year would probably be a lower incidence of rape than just about any country in the world, and massively lower than most of them.

Obviously, it's still 30 too many, but from where we are now it would be amazingly good going.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

71. You just made that up out of thin air!

I'm not dismissing the data - it may well be valid data on the number of rapes reported in each country, and may be worth reporting, *provided it's clearly labelled as what it is, and not presented in a way designed to trick people into believing it's something different*.

What I *am* dismissing is using the number of rapes reported in different countries as a way of estimating the number of rapes committed - just as I dismiss using the amount of ice-cream consumed as a way of estimating that.

Saying "we don't have this data, so we'll use some other data instead" is as good or as bad an idea as the correlation between the the data you have and the data you want. But

a) if you're doing that, you *must* make clear that that's what you're doing, and not deliberately try to obfuscate it,

and more importantly

b) in this case, the data you're presenting looks as though it's not merely uncorrelated with the data you're claiming it represents, it may well actually be weakly *negatively* correlated!


"We're stuck with" doesn't work - if we don't have data, we don't have data, and saying "we need data, so we'll make some up" is worse that useless.

[DirkGently]

74. In what arena of crime reporting do we include unreported crimes?

Sorry, but the only case you can make here is that we can't compare crime rates because some crimes go unreported.

Is it your contention that we can't compare crime rates from different areas because of uncertainties in rates of reporting?

Edit: By definition, you are assuming that there is data we don't have, AND that said would contradict the existing data, based on no evidence that is the case. How is that anything but a rhetorical trick that could be used in any situation?

[bettyellen]

79. it's the same reasoning as we shouldn't discuss feminism in theory or practice because a feminist...

Last edited Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

was rude to me once. Or one said something radical, so they all are.
It's like some people would like to force their willful ignorance on everyone, LOL.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. What? Where are you conjuring that from? N.T.

[bettyellen]

143. you don't see a ton of derails based on imperfect data? happens al the time.

because we don't have perfect rape stats, they talk about that instead of the OPs intent.
because not all feminists are aligned on every issue, it's best to dismiss them all.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

144. A rebuttal is not a derailment.

The OP's intent is to show that the incidence of rape in the USA is high compared to other countries, by use of a specific piece of data.

Unfortunately, their data does not support that claim, for reasons that I've gone into in detail in e.g. #81.

Pointing this out is not a derailment, it's a rebuttal.

I don't know whether your accusation of dismissing all feminists is aimed at me or at someone else, but from it's position it seems to be the former, in which case it's not merely unmerited but made up out of thin air.

[bettyellen]

152. it's both actually. a tried and true way to avoid actually discussing the intent of the OP

As are:

If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn
If You Cared About These Matters You’d Be Willing To Educate Me
You’re Being Hostile
But That Happens To Me Too!
You’re Being Overemotional
You’re Just Oversensitive
You Just Enjoy Being Offended
Being Offended Is Great For You! – NEW!
Don’t You Have More Important Issues To Think About
You’re Taking Things Too Personally
It’s Only The Internet! – NEW!
You’re Not Being Intellectual Enough/You’re Being Overly Intellectual
You’re Interrogating From The Wrong Perspective
You’re Arguing With Opinions Not Fact
Your Experience Is Not Representative Of Everyone
Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won’t Believe It
I Don’t Think You’re As Marginalised As You Claim
Aren’t You Treating Each Other Worse Anyway
But If It’s Okay For Marginalised People To Use Those Words, Why Can’t I? – NEW!
But You’re Different To The Others
Well I Know Another Person From Your Group Who Disagrees!
I’m Just Saying What Other People Believe. I Never Said I Agree – NEW!
I Said SOME Marginalised People Do That, Not ALL – NEW!
A In B Situation Is Not Equivalent To X In Y Situation
Who Wins Gold in the Oppression Olympics?
You Have A False Consciousness
You’re Not Being A Team Player
You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore
You Are Damaging Your Cause By Being Angry
You’re As Bad As They Are
Surprise! I Was Playing “Devil’s Advocate” All Along!

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/resources/mirror-derailing-for-dummies/

[Donald Ian Rankin]

161. I think you're using the word "discussing" to mean "agreeing with blindly".

The original intent of the OP is to convince people that America has a high incidence of rape compared to other countries.

Explaining why their evidence does not support that claim, and why it is probably false, is as clear-cut an example of discussing it as is possible.

Derailing would be discussing something unconnected to it.

The OP is *wrong*. Not wrong in general, but wrong about a very specific, clear-cut point of information. Saying that people who point that out are antifeminist is utterly daft.

[RainDog]

167. Some people are just unable to understand what you're saying

I understand completely what you're saying and see that the statement in the OP is not sustained by the graph and the arguments against this don't understand that what you're talking about has nothing to do with whether or not rape culture is part of the U.S.

But I've noticed, a lot lately, that some people cannot discern between reasoning and ideology.

You simply can't reason with someone who is determined to misunderstand your valid complaints about the lack of validity for claims based upon the information they provide.

Some of these same people will attack others and gang up on who they consider "enemies" based upon moments such as this one - i.e. you're not making an argument against feminism, but against wrongly-argued evidence.

On the other hand, if something is argued here in one context, but not another, if someone points this out, the retort is, again, an attack on the person who is noting the logic fail, rather than addressing the question related to the same.

It gets very frustrating but you're trying to point out something people don't want to see about the flaws in their own thought processes.

[bettyellen]

175. It would be daft it it didn't happen all the time here.

Usually as derailing sub threads. Can I ask you- are there EVER going to be stats that are good enough?
Do you think we need to stop trying to discus the prevalence of rape because we don't have perfect numbers? I'm starting to think so.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

184. Good enough for what?

Are reported levels of rape ever going to be any use as an estimator of relative incidence of rape between countries? No.

Are there other ways of estimating the incidence of rape? Yes, although they can only give very rough estimates indeed. As such, any discussion based on them needs to be extremely cautious, and any conclusions it reaches can only be tentative, but it won't be worthless.

So no, you don't need to stop discussing the incidence of rape. That's not what I said, it's just what you'd like me to have said, I'm afraid. All you need to do is to stop claiming that incidence of reported rape correlates with incidence of rape, and use other - imperfect but not worthless - ways of estimating it.

And, more generally, to base your conclusions on the data you have. An attitude I've encountered repeatedly in this thread is "we don't have good data, so we should treat bad data as though it was good". That's simply wrong. The correct attitude is "we don't have good data, therefore we cannot draw good conclusions".

[In_The_Wind]

165. !!!

[arely staircase]

177. do you get told those things often?

or are people generally pleased to hear/read what you have to say/write?

just curious.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

181. Neither.

I generally only post when I disagree with something, and no-one likes being told their wrong, but accusing me of dismissing all feminism is an unusual way of expressing that displeasure.

[bettyellen]

186. you misunderstand, I honestly see that you are hung up on the stats....

but I'm also saying you are not in such great company here. Honestly every thread discussing rape has someone minimizing ths issue by bemoaning the stats. It's fucking tiresome. I'm over it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

188. The OP is a statistical claim! Of course I'm "hung up on" the stats!

The title of the OP is (paraphrasing from memory" "Of course the USA has a rape culture, stats prove it".

Pointing out that the stats prove no such thing, and in fact suggest rather the reverse - that the USA has a strong anti-rape culture - isn't "getting hung up on" anything, it's engaging directly with the issue raised in the OP!

Is it your view that a thread about anything connected to rape should consist purely of people wringing their hands and saying "isn't rape awful", and not get any more specific than that? Because that is not a process likely to lead to either a clearer understanding of the problem, or to any solutions - in fact, quite the reverse.

If you think that the USA has more rape than most other countries (as the OP claims) when it fact it probably has a slightly below-average rate of rape, then you're going to ask the wrong question - "what do we do that Egypt, Sierra Leone and Kenya don't that we should do less of?". In fact, the right question is probably "what do we do that other countries with high rates of rape (and often low rates of reported rape) don't do that we should do more of".

But to decide that, you need to look at the stats. "Does the USA have more rape than other countries" is not just window-dressing, it's the central question the OP raises and gets wrong.

[bettyellen]

193. ok, indulge me. Can you tell me where are the good stats that won't cause endless arguing that they

are shit? I'm having trouble they exist. Seriously.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

194. Of course they don't exist!

There are no good statistics on the incidence of rape.

There are statistics on the incidence of rape good enough to be somewhat useful - we can make semi-educated, rather than uneducated guesses.

But anyone who presents any kind of statistic about how many rapes get committed as "this is true" - as opposed to - "this is an educated guess, which is clearly not terribly accurate but probably in the right ball-park" is automatically wrong, and should be pointed out as being so.


It's very tempting to say "we don't have good data, so it's OK to use bad data as though it was good". Unfortunately, that's wrong - all we can say is "we don't have good data, so all we can do is draw tentative conclusions from the bad data we have, and make clear that they're probably not accurate".

In the case of incidence of rape, all the data is bad, but much of it is not worthless - surveys with decent methodology tend to show that somewhere between about one in three and one in eight women in America experiences rape at some point in her life, which - while clearly a wide region - at least lets us guess the order of magnitude of the problem (the OP taken at face value, incidentally, would imply that that number was more like one in 40 or one in 50 - probably far better than any country in the world actually manages).

But if you try and put forward a numerical claim about the incidence of rape much more precise than "between 1 in 3 and 1 in 8" with any degree of confidence whatsoever then you are almost certainly claiming something which the data does not support, and people who criticise you for doing so are quite right.

One area where there *is* reliable data, incidentally, is the fraction of reported rapes that make it to prosecution. I don't know those numbers, but they probably *can* be calculated pretty accurately and reliably, and if - as I suspect - the fraction is small then that might be good accurate statistical evidence about how different countries treat rape.

But no good statistics on the incidence of rape exist, and using bad ones as if they were good is not a possible solution.

[bettyellen]

203. thanks for the replies....

I'm not much into stats myself. I just know I see that they end up derailing discussion all the time here. But you're right - it's pointless to even bring them up.
It never helps. The college surveys I read are horrible- but it's impossible to extrapolate that they are the same at all colleges.
Tks again Donald.

[arely staircase]

201. i wasn't asking you i was asking bettyallan

[Donald Ian Rankin]

81. In any area where the correlation between reported and actual crimes is weak, of course.

No comparison of actual crime rates between two countries using reported crime rates as an estimator will be perfect. Factors that will effect how much we should trust the estimate include:

1) How high do we think the rate of reporting is? The higher it is, the better the estimates.

Let c be the number of crimes reported.

Our confidence that the actual number of crimes committed is between c/p and c/q is equal to our confidence that the rate of reporting is between p and q (where p and q are numbers between 0 and 1).

Notice that the range of crimes committed that we can limit ourselves to is (c/p,c/q), which has terms in 1/p and 1/q. 1/p and 1/q grow slowly when p and q are near to 1, but very fast indeed when they are small

So if we're confident that our rate of reporting is between 0.5 and 0.8, we are confident that we have between 1.25 c and 2c crimes committed - less than a 100% fluctuation, from a range of 0.3

But if we're confident that our rate of reporting is between 0.001 and 0.1, we are confident that we have between 10 c and 1000c crimes committed - which is to say, we don't have a clue, despite the fact that we've estimated the rate of reporting to within a smaller range.


Various studies have provided strong evidence that rape is usually not reported, and hence it's a crime where estimating incidence from reporting will be especially unreliable.



2) Are there reasons to guess that the rate of reporting differs widely between the countries, or to suspect that it doesn't?

This one should be fairly self-evident. And, again, different countries have such different attitudes to and treatment of women who report having been raped, that we can't make any kind of assumption about constancy, or even similarity, of rates of reporting.

On the other hand, you potentially *could* use reported numbers of rape as a *very weak* estimator of incidence of rape between different parts of the same country, where at least all rapes will be handled by the same judicial regime, so there might be less variance between rates of reporting.



3) In fact, it's even worse than 2) appears at first glance- we can be pretty confident that countries with more rapes will, on average, have a *lower* rate of reporting than countries with fewer rapes. So the correlation between reported rapes and actual rapes will be even weaker, and in fact quite possibly be *negative*.

This factor will apply to all crimes, of course, but its effect will be much higher for rape than for more-often reported ones, because of 1).



So, in summary: I think that the correlation between reports and commissions will be strongly positive for murder, because nearly all murders are reported nearly everywhere. If will be quite strongly positive for theft, because most thefts are reported in most places. It will be weak or non-existent for fraud. And for rape it's probably weakly negative.

Which is to say, if you want to estimate which of two countries has more rapes committed with access to no data other than the number of rapes reported, your best bet may well be to guess that the one with *fewer* rapes reported has more committed. You'll be right at most a fraction more than 50% of the time either way, though.

[Rex]

23. Rape culture exists, some around here just cannot handle it.

Why? No idea...but it is a fact, America has a rape culture that evidently is allowed to thrive in certain areas.

[BainsBane]

27. strange, isn't it?

I don't understand it. It's like they take it to mean people are accusing them of rape.
Men are raped too, especially in prisons. So I really don't get this weird opposition to the idea that a rape culture exists.

[Rex]

28. I agree and you just named one of the biggest places it can be found in.

Yes, this personal business some have here is kinda creepy...NO ONE is accusing anyone here personally of rape. Either directly or indirectly...so why the blowback to admitting that it is a crisis in America?

[DirkGently]

46. I'm thinking they might be more comfortable with "Rapey Culture."

Because, like, there's a lot of rape, and a lot of bad cultural treatment of rape, and rape victims, and rapists, but it's not, like, all rape, all the time, so ... rapey?

This all puts me in the mind of Fox News viewers who are certain we don't have any racial issues (and should therefore stop talking about it altogether) "because, like, slavery's been illegal for years now."

[DirkGently]

75. What a weird thing to be defensive about, eh?

It's as though those arguing believe that "rape culture" is a personal indictment of themselves. We talk about "gun culture," but understand it's not universal or an indictment of everyone, or even everyone with guns. We talk about the "culture of greed," without assuming everyone is greedy or that everyone reading that is implicated.

Why the big, painful knee-jerk to deny American rape culture?

[Rex]

102. Every culture has to deal with it

big or small, macro and micro - we should too. It is kinda baffling. It is not a competition. It is a crisis.

[Buzz Clik]

24. About the company you keep in the underworld...

...Check your messages.

[BainsBane]

26. I don't think I need to,

do I? I've had my fill of them. I just thought I'd call them on their BS rather than having them treat me like an inanimate object.

[Buzz Clik]

176. Understood. But, you give them too much credit.

Piling on, personal insults, playground bullying tactics, taunting people behind their back, and lying about their own capabilities: emotionally, they are still in seventh grade.

I've been perona non grata there for years with a permanent ban in effect. When you think about it, my being banned says a lot about the tough guy approach they take when it's ten against one -- the thought of facing a formidable opponent makes them immediately erect protective walls and a mote. tsk tsk.

On the bright side, BainsBane, you did shot a hot spotlight on their imperfections. It was a nice dose of perspective.

Time for me to move on.

[sufrommich]

25. Of course it exists. I have to wonder why

there is a sudden need to deny it. It didn't see these OPs intent on denying it exists when the GOP was in full force rape apology mode during the elections.

[gollygee]

30. Rape culture does exist, and whether it exists is not based on

whether we won or lost some imaginary competition. We can have a rape culture at the same time other countries have huge problems with rape. And we do.

(Not in response to you but in response to some of the replies. "Bosnia is worse, therefore we don't have a problem.)

[BainsBane]

33. exactly

Don't you love the race to the bottom: as long as somewhere in the world is worse, we need to count ourselves lucky. Of course they only do this because they think it's all about female victims, which actually isn't true. Someone posted a comment in another thread this week that men are raped more than women and pointed to prison stats. It pissed me off at the time. In retrospect, however, I realize that most rape stats only count civil society. We aren't getting numbers from prison. If you add that in, we may be on par with Bosnia and the Congo.

[smirkymonkey]

149. +1000

[DirkGently]

38. Jesus. Even Alaska? Yes, America, we have a serious problem with rape.

[cthulu2016]

44. Yup. America is hell for women. Syria is the place to be.

It is amusing that anyone would present as meaningful a claim that rape is 65 times more common in Lesotho than in Sierra Leone

You KNOW that is false

[BainsBane]

49. It's reported rapes

Obviously.

[bettyellen]

61. it's time for the Oppression Olympics again! Or shut up about your white girl problems, you SJW!

[BainsBane]

65. Oppression Olympics

I like that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. You should be talking to the OP, not to their critics, if anything.

Given that this whole thread is an attempt to compare rates of rape in different countries.

But, actually, I think that comparing rates of rape in different countries is a worthwhile exercise. It's unfortunate that the OP is failing so miserably to do that, but that doesn't mean that "Oppression Olympics", if done with proper data, are a bad thing.

[bettyellen]

77. Um, no. It was Chutlu who posited that this issue is not big enough here to warrant discussion...

and I'm calling that out for what it is, bullshit.
Since when do we not discuss any issue because it is a bigger problem somewhere else?
Never, that's when.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. You're completely misrepresenting their post (whether accidentally or on purpose I don't know).

Here is what they actually said:


"Yup. America is hell for women. Syria is the place to be.

It is amusing that anyone would present as meaningful a claim that rape is 65 times more common in Lesotho than in Sierra Leone

You KNOW that is false"


There's no possible way that that can be interpreted as saying that the issue is not big enough to warrant discussion. What it's saying is that a specific claim made in that discussion is false.

And that's clearly true - the claim that Lesotho has 65 times more rapes than Sierra Leone is clearly absurd, and more generally, the claim that the data on reported rapes in different countries presented in the OP has meaningful correlation with the incidence of rape in those countries is also clearly absurd.

I think that estimating the incidence of rape in different countries is a worthwhile goal.

Precisely because of that, I think it's important that when people present numbers which are clearly not merely wrong, but uncorrelated (or possibly even negatively correlated) with numbers that could be right, that we point that out, as Chutlu and I have been doing.

[bettyellen]

89. "America is hell for women. Syria is the place to be." is snarky + designed to derail the discussion

that they further go into questioning the stats doesn't really change that snarky bit that serves to minimize legitimate domestic issues.

[WinniSkipper]

154. " is snarky + designed to derail the discussion"

You should have said that the first time, rather than how you chose to frame it.

[bettyellen]

155. well, was a bit fed up with the "white girl problem" meme that has taken hold here

the snark needed to be pointed out? seriously?

[WinniSkipper]

159. I just thought

"...this issue is not big enough here to warrant discussion..." was completely off base. So far off base it needed to be pointed out. Seriously.

[bettyellen]

160. Comparing Syria to the USA is being dismissive for no valid reason.

you hear this shit all the time here. the stats issue is an excuse to talk about something... anything else.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

169. The stats *are* the issue!

The OP is a post whose content consists, solely, of statistics intended to prove that incidence of rape in the USA is high compared to other countries.

Discussing those statistics is as clear-cut an example of address the issue as is possible.

[bettyellen]

174. In your world, they are more significant than the point the OP is trying to make. Lucky you.

Seriously not trying to argue with you, but I'm guessing it's easier for you not to notice this has happened here a few dozen times before. Basically, every time anyone mentions rape stats.
So all the stats are flawed- and we won't about how serious of a problem it is, because we don't know exactly how large it is.
There are three links in the OP, and if we look at them and not going beyond discussing their methodology / their inevitable lack of perfection (for the hundredth time) we are missing the point.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

185. It's not "lack of perfection", it's literally "worthlessness", for the purpose they're being used.

Using merely imperfect or flawed data is fine - if thing A correlates with thing B, then using measures of thing A lets you make a mored educated guess at thing B than simply sticking a number in a dartboard.

But incidence of rape is pretty much *uncorrelated* with incidence of reported rape between countries - that is to say, if you take into account the number of reported rapes when making a guess at the number of actual rapes, your guess will be no more accurate than if you had used a dartboard.

It's like the difference between using peoples height as a way to guess their weight, and using their house number - the former is merely imperfectly correlated - flawed, in your terms - while the latter is uncorrelated.


I'm *not* criticising the methodology of the studies linked to in the OP (I'm not endorsing it either - I haven't checked it). They may well be perfectly good measures of the number of reported rapes in different countries. What I am criticising is using those studies to say something they don't.


Look at it this way: if I were say to you "we don't have data on the number of rapes committed in these countries, but this one has more malaria, so it has a rape culture", would you accept that? Saying "we don't have data on the number of rapes committed in these countries, but this one has higher number of reported rapes" is just as wrong, it's just less obviously so, because "number of reported rapes" and "number of rapes committed" both have the word rape in them.

But they're probably actually less strongly correlated than malaria and number of rapes committed.



I am not *missing* the point, I am *refuting* it. The OPs point is that the USA has more rapes than most other countries, and that this proves that it has a rape culture. The truth is that the USA does *not* have more rapes than most other countries; what it has is a more vigorous *anti-rape* culture than most others.

This is a really important distinction, because if you want to reduce the incidence of rape in the USA then if you are mislead by the OP then you will ask "what are we doing that other countries are not that we can do less of?", when what you should be asking is "what are we doing that other countries are not that we can do more of?" (answer: train police in making reporting rape non-traumatic, make it clear that being raped is not shameful, stigmatise rape - all things that are done a lot in the USA, albeit not enough, and not so much in countries with higher rates of rape, and often lower rates of reported rape).

[defacto7]

47. America does have a problem with rape culture..

I think the chart doesn't begin to show the extent. But the comparisons to other countries is totally askew due to differences in mores and laws that define rape.

[Comrade Grumpy]

50. I don't know about "rape culture," but these stats seem counterintuitive.

Leaving aside Lesotho, it seems, according to this chart, that the hotbeds of sexual violence are Western Europe and the US.

If I'm a woman worried about my safety in the US, I would be absolutely petrified in that seething cauldron of rape-friendly lust, Sweden. (I feel ridiculous even typing those words). From what I know, Sweden is a very progressive, pro-feminist country. You know, the kind of place where Julian Assange gets prosecuted.

I suspect these numbers, which count only reported rapes, underestimate actual rape levels by varying degrees in different countries. But I don't know. Food for thought.

And, as the Global Post noted, "these numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt" and "Australia may have the highest average per capita, but that doesn't mean it actually experiences higher rates than other countries that bottom out on this list, like Egypt."

[Bernardo de La Paz]

55. Very misleading chart. It is only "REPORTED" cases. nt

[BainsBane]

64. Yes, as I wrote

ABOVE the chart.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

84. However, your thread title says the opposite. The graphic does not "prove" your thesis.

The statistics of the chart do not prove that the US has a "rape culture".

[HereSince1628]

67. Yes, unfortunately. WIthout huge under reporting you can't reconcile numbers from dif. studies

on the incidence of rape and rape attempts.

A NY Times article from a couple of years ago suggests that 20% of women reported having been raped or having been victim of a rape attempt over their lifetime.

20% of 100,000 is 20,000 if for the sake of easy arithmetic a lifespan is considered 75 years then the incidence rate per year must average ~266/100000 to get to that 20% figure at age 75.

I'm not say it is or isn't. I'm just saying that is ~10x the rate reported for the US in the above figure.

If we accept both sets of numbers as honest, and I have no reason to not accept them as honest representations of research findings, the only way to reconcile the numbers is to believe that only about 1/10th of the events get reported.

I have no reason to believe the under reporting is other than huge. Stories of women in fear of the consequences of coming forward to the police are, sadly, all too common.

[DirkGently]

78. YES! What kind of "report" is limited to reported information?

Well, except, probably, all of them, by definition.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

87. Think: many valuable reports include estimates. Infographics are not limited to "reported info".

Perhaps you are indulging in only some word play, but to be clear: the word "reported" in the context of rape statistics based on "reported rapes" means based on first-person reports. Very informative reports (meaning articles or papers or briefings or books) about rapes can be based on estimates that include estimates of under-reported or unreported rapes.

[DirkGently]

99. Think: It's not misleading to rely on "reported info."

The word games are all yours here. There's nothing that can be characterized as "misleading" about putting reported figures into an infographic that states it's based on reported figures.

If you want say you'd prefer to include estimates of unreported figures, that's fine, but it doesn't entitle you to dismiss the completely reasonable use of reported figures, much less glibly suggest that it's misleading.

It's not misleading, at all. If you won't admit that, you are not arguing honestly.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

104. It's incredibly misleading to label them "the world according to rape", though.

An infographic of reported rape is fine.

In any area where reports correlate strongly with incidence - which is almost any area but rape - it's legitimate to occlude the fact that your data is what was reported.

But if, for some reason, reports don't correlate strongly with incidence - if, for example, you're looking at relative populations of the Lesser-Spotted Stealth Monkey and of Durrel's Obvious Gibbon in a given area of jungle - then that creates an obligation on the presenter of the data to highlight that reports do not correlate with incidence, and it especially creates an obligation on users of that data to take that into account.

And this is clearly one such case.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

110. It's misleading. The infographic does not prove the OP's thesis or the thread title. nt

[DirkGently]

111. You don't think the sheer numbers of rape show a problem?

The only reasonable quibble here would be that unreported rapes are a bigger problem in other places, so the relative rate may not be accurate.

Why would the relative rate of rape validate or invalidate that we have a problem in this country?

Is it your position that if rape is in fact more prevalent in Syria, but still very high in the U.S. -- as shown by the clearly labeled "reported rapes" that the OP is invalidated?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

112. The sheer numbers are a problem. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

117. 30 rapes per 100,000 per year would be better than practically any country in the world, I suspect.

It's clearly still 30 too many, but it would still be a massive, massive improvement.

To put it in perspective: if 30 women per 100,000 were raped per year, about one woman in 50 will be raped at some point in her lifetime. In actual fact, the figure is probably somewhere between 1 in 3 and 1 in 10 in the USA, depending on who you listen to, and probably significantly worse in most of the rest of the world.

[gollygee]

120. Even then I don't know if rape rates are the best measure

Like there are countries where it's illegal for a woman to go out without a male family member as an escort. There, rape rates are probably fairly low, though of course if you do go out without an escort it's legal to rape you. Even if rape rates are low there, that is a huge rape culture.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

121. Are you sure?

There certainly are, or at least have been countries where it's illegal for women to go out unescorted, but is it really legal to commit rape there?

[gollygee]

122. Well if it isn't illegal

And if people don't get prosecuted, it's legal.

I thought it was illegal for women to go out wihtout an escort somewhere (I wish I remembered where I read this about) and if she did, no one would get charged if she was raped because that was considered the normal consequence of going out unescorted.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

123. I'd verify that before citing it confidently, to be honest. N.T.

[gollygee]

124. I'm speaking from memory

Also, we've had articles posted here at DU where a woman has been raped and then stoned for adultery, with no one going after the rapists. Again, if no one attempts to arrest anyone for rape, it's legal.

[gollygee]

125. Here is one more recent than the one I was thinking of

But found with a few seconds of googling.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324439804578109492792634554.html

She finally escaped the village in March, fleeing to a nearby police station where she explained her story. Instead of arresting Abdullah, the police locked up Rokhshana herself. Her offense: leaving home unescorted by a male relative. Such conduct is considered a crime by many judges in Afghanistan, who often apply Shariah, or Islamic laws, differently across the country.

Weeks later, her complaints of rape and abuse were turned into charges of leaving home and adultery—even though she is unmarried. "When the judge sentenced me he said 'I know you've been forced to have sexual relations but because you're now impure and escaped from home, you need to go to jail,' " she recalled, sitting on a prison bed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

93. One labelled "the world according to reporting of rape".

And certainly one not titled "this proves that the US has a rape culture".

[gollygee]

100. I thought the point wasn't

to compare the US to other places, because doesn't she actually say in the OP that it's only based on reported rapes. I took that to mean that she recognizes that the information is biased in that way.

I think the point is simply that there are a lot of rapes in the US, and that to have that many requires a culture that supports it.

[cprise]

57. Its encouraged by our criminal justice system

...and the rest of our culture, for the most part, that men are expected to rape each other in prison. The way its accepted and bandied about, they use it as some kind of a deterrent.

[libodem]

60. The whole world is a dangerous and terrifying place

Always remember be very afraid. The US has vastly contributed to it with its imperialist policies, and wars. The assaults of children in refuge camps is almost a guarantee that they are going to raped. Boys and girls.

We pushed millions of families out of their homes in Iraq, and over the borders into other countries, with no protection.

Sexual violence is rampant all around the world and worse when women and children are poor and displaced.

Liberia and Syria, are a mess. Any place people are stored like fire wood in open areas, with little more than a tent, they can't be safe. Poor Haiti.

Even in a door with a lock, you still might harbor a predator and be locked indoors with one. It could be your priest, doctor, neighbor, friend, policemen, store clerk, teacher, your dad.

There just is no safe place, anywhere in this world. But America, exports it with the Military, where the real rape culture, is nurtured.

War and rape R us.


That's the point. Right?

[BainsBane]

63. What's your point

Rape isn't a problem? Don't worry about it? And don't talk about it in public?

[libodem]

76. How do we fix it?

How do we make it stop? Who do we blame? Should we just start man-hating and tighten up the school to prison pipeline and just lock up all the boys. Do we just need a world without men? Is this a new 'culture'? Has it been here since the BC's or did it just start in 2005?

Is this an effort to 'protect' all children and women or to condemn the other half of the population?

I know there is horrible sexual violence in the world, and being educated and proactive is important but there is also an agenda pushing the concept of rape culture and keeping it on the front page of DU.

Is it to educate, to decry and denounce, or to create fear and paranoia? It seems like an agenda pushed by a few, to create an impression, that the world is unsafe, violent, and unjust. The paternal preoccupation with something so sick and violent is disturbing to me.

[sufrommich]

85. Silly feminists stereotypes are silly. There are no

"man haters" here. God,it's like DU is stuck in 1958 lately.

[BainsBane]

129. We create a culture where rape is not acceptable

As people are doing about bullying. Make it clear it isn't okay to high five a man after having sex with a passed out woman. We make it clear it's socially unacceptable to observe an assault and not report it. We teach people not to shame rape victims, and teach both girls and boys about proper boundaries.

Your statement about blaming men is absurd. No one does that. Moreover, men themselves are victims of rape, substantial numbers of them in prisons.

You stop trying to get people to shut up about rape because you don't like to hear about it. Too fucking bad. It's a lot worse to be raped than to read about it.

In case you missed it, this began because Unrepentant Liberal posted a thread saying no rape culture existed. I posted this graphic in response, and someone asked me to make it an OP. So why don't you go lecture him about keeping it on the front page. Of course you won't. You reserve your lectures for fellow women. Better yet, rather than blaming rape victims for talking about the crime, say something to the rapists. When 25% of American women are no longer raped, we'll stop talking about it.

[In_The_Wind]

166. I am sorry that I missed the chance to post on that thread.

Rape of anyone is wrong.

Blaming the victim is raping that person again.

Being raped is a lifelong battle to overcome hearing the wrong message that the one who was raped should suffer in silence.

As a survivor of childhood sexual abuse I did nothing wrong. My family made me feel that at the age of nine it was my fault, not the 26 year old man who stole my childhood forever. It was my second stepmother who ... with her words that caused me a lifetime of pain that psychiatrist were unable to undo.

It took many years doing both volunteer and paid jobs helping victims for me to overcome my shame for something that I was too young to stop. To understand that I honestly did nothing wrong. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[BainsBane]

178. I'm so sorry you experienced that

How awful. I'm glad you found a way to heal yourself and can now assist others in doing so.

[In_The_Wind]

179. That explains much about why I do everything that I do.

I've come to the realization that everything I do is carefully choreographed to keep me safe while leading as close to normal a life as possible. The men in my life have not had it easy.

I see every little bit of body language. Do you remember the first time you and I exchanged post re: which 4 dresses ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018363964 ...
The only thing that has worked is for me to always be in control.
It's very tiring. I wish that I could really find my equal in a man.

[BainsBane]

182. oh, the project runway thread?

Yes, I recall. There is no way to escape the experiences that shape our lives. All we can do is try to learn from them.

[Triana]

72. K & R, shared, bookmarked. n/t

[brooklynite]

90. Guess we also have a "burglary culture"

Your statistic is 28.6 reported cases per 100,000 population nationwide. Let's increase that number by 10 to account for unreported assaults. We now have 286 per 100,000. In Cleveland alone, there were 2,816 burglaries per 100,000 people.

My point is not to demean the impact of rape; it's to point out that there's a lot of crime of many sorts; the fact that it happens doesn't indicate a cultural driver.

[gollygee]

92. People are too focused on the numbers here

I don't think the OP meant to have so much focus on the numbers, just for people to see that yes it is pretty common.

We have a rape culture because our culture supports and perpetuates rape. It isn't about how many there are. If you get burlurized, people don't blame you. "Look at all the nice stuff you have. Could you see any of that from the windows?" If you call the police they don't immediately wonder if you're telling the truth about being burglurized. Chances are, the people who broke into your house and robbed you know they did something illegal and therefore wouldn't videotape it and put it on youtube. The Steubenville guys and their supporters still believe they didn't commit rape. And if it was on youtube, no one would bully you and shame you and call you names over it being on youtube.

[BainsBane]

103. Your point does demean it

Burglary is a property crime. Rape is a violent crime against a person. You can defend your property with lethal force, but the law sees my body as less valuable than your TV set, so I don't have that right. I have to wonder why so many are concerned with denying the existence of rape culture, when it is obvious.

[DirkGently]

109. And are the burglary victims called names & threatened?

Sorry, but that's not a valid analogy in the slightest. We do have a cultural issue with rape, as demonstrated amply by student athletes thinking it's a funny prank to put on YouTube, and their friends threatening the victim with murder for "ruining their lives."

We do have a cultural problem with rape when we hear that it may be the victim's fault because of what she wore, or how much she drank.

We do have a cultural problem with rape when it's suggested rape only causes pregnancy when it's "real, forcible rape."

Speaking of "forcible" rape, I think we have a cultural problem when the word "forcible" is inserted into all kinds of legislation by national Republican leaders, to, you know, differentiate from non-forcible rape, whatever that is, that presumably doesn't count.

Do people demean burglary victims? Call them crazy? Suggest they wanted it? Is it a cliche that going to college parties and drinking will result in someone getting drugged and "burgled?"

C'mon. This is a cultural conversation that we need to have. We all know this.

[In_The_Wind]

162. If your family had a rape or a burglary ... which would you want to stop the most.

You seem to think that what you own is more important than the victim of a rape.

[davidn3600]

113. Couldnt these stats be skewed to the fact it is reported here more than anywhere else?

Rape is INCREDIBLY under-reported in most parts of the world.

If you really think Egypt is the safest country for women, I got a bridge to sell you.

[BainsBane]

116. Of course

They are indeed based on reported rapes. There are additional numbers from other sources below the chart, but they are also based on reported rapes. Only a small percentage of rapes are reported in any country, but we might presume US and Europe has higher levels of reporting than the Global South.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

118. Not just could be, but obviously are.

The values in this chart look like they're essentially uncorrelated with incidence of rape; there may even be negative correlation because countries with less reporting are likely to have more rape.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

128. Another good (but (less) flawed) infographic and some reasoned (supportive) analysis:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/08/the_enliven_project_s_false_rape_accusations_infographic_great_intentions.html

{...} unfortunately, while well-intentioned, it is also misleading in significant ways that can be used to undercut its basic message, which is sound: that false rape accusations are rare.

The persistent myth that false accusations are common makes it incredibly difficult for victims to get justice—the overwhelming threat of being accused of making it all up to cover up for one's slutty ways (see recently: Steubenville, Notre Dame, Cleveland) is enough to make women simply not report. Those who do report run a very high chance of never seeing a conviction, some because police drop the case on the slut-and-liar grounds and some because juries buy the defense attorney's claim that the victim bizarrely preferred being publicly accused of being a slut and liar to quietly forgetting about a night of forced sex.

Sadly, the graphic meant to set the record straight on false accusations only confuses matters. Three major problems jump out:

The graphic assumes one-rape-per-rapist. {... much more ...}

[Donald Ian Rankin]

132. I've seen this one before, the numbers are essentially made up.

There's a possibly slightly less fictionalised version at http://www.thejanedough.com/the-independent-publishes-a-more-accurate-rape-infographic/ (although I haven't checked it), and various takedowns all over the internet.

[BainsBane]

150. Those are British numbers

By the way. But don't concern yourself with trivialities like country or population.

[BainsBane]

142. Accurate numbers are probably impossible

Because of rape culture and reluctance of victims to report crimes. Thanks for posting this.

[BainsBane]

148. Since you don't want us to have the right to talk about rape

in public, why do feel compelled to participate in these threads?

[XRubicon]

151. 6.023x10^23 nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

202. What does avagadro's constant have to do with this? N.t

[LadyHawkAZ]

153. I think your graphic would tend to indicate that we have

Last edited Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:07 PM - Edit history (2)

a thriving anti-rape culture, which is a good start. There are rape cultures (plural) in the U.S. but they occur in independent pockets. The U.S. as an entity does not sanction or promote rape, neither do a majority of individual Americans.

Best article I've found yet on the subject:

http://prospect.org/article/purity-culture-rape-culture

“Rape culture,” as young feminists now call this, isn’t limited to India. It lives anywhere that has a “traditional” vision of women’s sexuality. A culture in which women are expected to remain virgins until marriage is a rape culture. In that vision, women’s bodies are for use primarily for procreation or male pleasure. They must be kept pure. While cultural conservatives would disagree, this attitude gives men license to patrol—in some cases with violence—women's hopes for controlling their lives and bodies. In October, responding to Richard Mourdock's incredible comment about rape, I mentioned an absolutely essential piece by The Nation's Jessica Valenti in a way I want to reprise here, if you'll excuse the self-quotation:

As Tennessee Senator Douglas Henry said in 2008, “Rape, ladies and gentlemen, is not today what rape was. Rape, when I was learning these things, was the violation of a chaste woman, against her will, by some party not her spouse.”

In other words, only virgins can be raped—sweetly white-gloved, white-skinned virgins. Any woman who ever wanted sex—yes, that includes married women who unconditionally give permission when they put on that ring—deserves what she gets. Valenti’s piece is a brilliant and absolutely essential manifesto on what still has to change to get from “What about 'no' don’t you understand?” to the more advanced concept that women have a right to enjoy and control our own bodies. In this "traditional" vision of sexuality, it's not rape if you've already had sex, ever—except if you're married and another man violates his property. Your only role is to protect your purity for its future owner. If you don't do, you're fair game.

A culture in which women must cover up or be threatened is a rape culture. You're thinking of hijab and burquas, right? Think also of the now well-known SlutWalks, which were launched after a Toronto police officer told young women that they could avoid rape by not dressing like “sluts.” The protests, which have spread worldwide, make the point that no matter how we dress, women are at risk; and no matter how we dress, our bodies are our own.

To which I would add two points that the author missed: 1) any ideal which devalues the concept of a woman's consent or enjoyment while placing an inflated value on women's modesty, chastity or purity is perpetuating a rape culture. This isn't limited to religious or conservative cultures, although those are major sources. We see it here on DU all the time. Some of it comes from women.

and 2) What the U.S. has more than anything is a system of hierarchies. Our societies are stratified, and we have a bad habit of placing the people on top of the heap (sports stars, celebrities, the wealthy) on pedestals and declaring them not bound by the behavioral standards of the rest of us. I think the Steubenville case was a big wake-up call in that respect; we have allowed certain types of people to believe they are above lesser mortals and have unlimited power without consequences, and now with that case we saw our children following our lead. I think the results have shocked a lot of people into awareness. The idea that one person is allowed the power to harm another without penalty, because they have money or can throw a ball or have a TV show or lead a church etc., also perpetuates a rape culture. In this area, at least, I think we're seeing the beginnings of a pushback. It may be the only good thing to come out of that disaster.

[RainDog]

168. The cult of the virgin is rape culture

Purity balls are rape culture.

Abstinence-only is rape culture.

"Waiting for marriage" is rape culture.

"Giving away the bride" is rape culture.

Religion in the U.S. is rape culture, as it is in other parts of the world as well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

170. I'm afraid I think you're broadening the concept beyond the point of meaninglessness. N.T.

[RainDog]

172. this relates to the link in the post, above

which talks about ownership of female sexuality as a part of religious belief systems.

all of those mentions concern those religious belief systems.

[Coyotl]

180. Survey Finds Sexual Harassment in Anthropology

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2013/04/survey-finds-sexual-harrassment-.html

MEN!!

[BainsBane]

183. That actually surprises me

Given how serous universities have become about sexual harassment. I wonder if there was a generational difference? Or perhaps they feel they can get away with it away from the university?

[RainDog]

187. I would be surprised if a majority of women had not been harassed at some point

The article defines sexual harassment very broadly, but even defined narrowly, I would not be surprised to find women often face discrimination, inappropriate (power differential) sexual advances and threats in all sorts of situations.

I was fired from a job after my boss put his hands down the front of my shirt (while standing behind me.) I did nothing to encourage this. I didn't show up for work the next day because it bothered me so much - and I was fired. That was soon after high school.

I was raped in the least traumatic way possible - when I was asleep and someone, without my consent, had sex with me. He woke me up and I just pretended to go along, half asleep, until it was over. I knew this guy, but not well. I had fallen asleep after a party because I didn't think I should drive home at that time and was waiting until I thought it was safe to drive. I never reported it, etc. b/c I knew it was more trouble than it was worth, for me. I didn't scream, didn't fight back. There was no way it would've been worth the trouble. I never flirted with him. I didn't know him well, but it turns out he was about to get married to someone. It was a total surprise to me that he would do this. Later, I saw him nearly every day because of work we were both doing. I wanted to scream at him. I hated him. I still hate him. But I didn't say anything. I mostly don't think about it because a lot of other, worse things have happened.

When I was in college I lived near one of my profs and, one time, when he was ill, he asked me to pick up class work and take it to the class. I was told by one woman that all the other women (and maybe men, who knows) in the class assumed I was sleeping with the prof, but this was not the case, had never been the case and would never be the case. They diminished the work I did - hard work - by this assumption, tho. Would they have assumed a male was sleeping with a prof. in the same situation? I doubt it. It never occurred to me not to help out because others would think something like this, because I didn't think about others in this way.

My boyfriend, tho not for long, got mad at me because I wouldn't let him cheat off my work for a test. I wasn't a cheater, in all kinds of ways. Our mutual prof. (in a totally non-sexual situation) told me to pursue further work in the field b/c I had talent, but I never told my boyfriend because he would've hurt me. He was stupidly jealous and, thankfully, I was able to get out of that relationship, but he did hurt me, physically, before I did. I didn't have very high self-esteem at the time (still don't) because my dad had called me a slut because I had had sex before I was married... not with multiple people...with my boyfriend, after high school. My brother told me my dad said he just wanted to get rid of me (i.e. he wanted me to marry someone else and be that person's problem.) That's how I ended up with the boyfriend who was abusive. I wanted to get away from home in any way possible. My own kids have never had this sort of experience.

In the recent past I applied for a job and was told I was the most qualified applicant, by a senior someone else who worked at the place, when I asked her to look over my resume and give me feedback. But a young woman was hired instead. I was told the boss liked to hire younger women, by this same person who checked out my resume. That's not something I can substantiate, but that was the opinion of the other (senior) woman who had worked there for years and seen hiring patterns. This was not an entry level position, where younger people would often be the norm.

People in positions of power abuse that power often. And others also make harsh judgements based upon inaccurate assumptions. I began to feel like damned if you do, damned in you don't - from both men and women. So I stopped giving a shit what anyone else had to say or think about my life because they hadn't lived it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

190. It took me a while to notice that this was bunk.

It's an online survey, and they're reporting percentages of respondents rather than percentages of those asked. That means that you can assume that out of the potentially thousands of people they asked, at least 20 have been harassed and and least 80 haven't, but - unless you think people who have and who haven't are equally likely to answer an online survey - you can't draw any meaningful conclusion about the remaining, much larger, number.

[BainsBane]

197. funny how the only numbers that aren't bunk

are the ones you posted: Only they aren't even about the US and you didn't bother to notice or comment on that. Extrapolate those UK numbers to the US population and the numbers are far greater than anything anyone else has cited.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

199. Where did I say they weren't bunk?

What I said was that they were "possibly slightly less fictionalised, although I hadn't checked". I'm afraid I think that you're probably looking for weaknesses in what I've said due to personal animus, rather than trying to analyse it objectively - and in this case, you clearly haven't found one.

I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about linking to numbers whose veracity I am uncertain of, *provided that I make clear that I have done so* - and certainly provided I steer clear of claims like "these statistics prove X".

You're right about one thing - the actual incidence of rape in the US *is* almost certainly much, much greater than the number suggested in the OP. Extrapolating from that would mean about one woman in 50 would be raped; most of the more plausible estimates I've seen put the number between 1 in 3 and 1 in 10 (note the very wide range between the bounds, and the disclaimer - this is a very good way to make it likely that what you say is true when you don't have reliable data. There's nothing wrong with unreliable data, provided it's honestly and clearly advertised as such). Of course, the incidence in other countries with lower rates of reported rape is probably often even higher.

[Demo_Chris]

191. Any source suggesting the US is a world leader in rape is flat out ludicrous. nt

[BainsBane]

192. You do see it says reported rapes?

[Demo_Chris]

200. Yes, which makes the entire thing meaningless as anything but disinformation

It's like comparing the reported infant mortality rates of Uganda and Florida, and then using this to suggest Florida has a problem.

I understand that "rape culture" is the topic of the month, but you do yourself no favors when you begin the discussion with half-truths and intentionally misleading information.

I say that, but on consideration there is nothing here to discuss. It's possible that some places on earth do, in fact, have a rape culture, but the United States is not one of these places -- which is why those advancing this nonsense have to use misleading claims to make the case. Rape is a crime here, the public accepts that it is a crime, and no one is arguing that these laws should be changed or eliminated. In fact, the public would like to see these crimes prosecuted more often and more successfully. So much for the "rape culture" claim. We have an ANTI-Rape culture.

It's reasonable for you or anyone else to suggest that we need to do more, and do it better and faster. You can make these demands with the absolute confidence that no one will object. The reason, again, is that we have an anti-rape culture, so you aren't saying anything all that everyone else doesn't already believe. You aren't taking the gospel to the heathen, you're preaching to the congregation -- and they are all saying amen.

Unfortunately, some want more. They want the public at large, and men in particular, to plead guilty to crimes we haven't committed and beliefs we do not hold. They insist we embrace collective guilt for the actions of criminals we despise. I, for one, refuse. I reject hysterical accusations or collective guilt. I am not guilty, nor is my culture, and I will not be spoken to in that way.

[Nye Bevan]

195. Obviously the US, the UK, Sweden, and New Zealand have a few lessons to learn from Egypt.

Are Egyptian men more enlightened than their American, British, Swedish and New Zealander counterparts? Does the Egyptian government run a particularly effective anti-rape campaign? Does TV in the US, Britain, Sweden and New Zealand somehow encourage rape more than Egyptian TV? We urgently need researchers to answer these questions. This is a national disgrace and embarrassment for the US, the UK, Sweden, New Zealand, and the other "top ten" countries, and in the light of this survey every man from one of these countries should be hanging his head in abject shame.

[BainsBane]

196. It means more rapes are reported here

Did you even bother looking at the other sources or was that too much trouble for you?

[WinniSkipper]

198. What do you think it means

that we have more reported? What does that signify to you?