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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 10:14 AM Apr 2013

In Gun Debate, No Rift on Better Care for Mentally Ill

In Gun Debate, No Rift on Better Care for Mentally Ill
Saturday, 13 April 2013 08:57
By Jeremy W Peters, The New York Times News Service | Report


Washington - While the Senate has been consumed with a divisive debate over expanded background checks for gun buyers, lawmakers have been quietly working across party lines on legislation that advocates say could help prevent killers like Adam Lanza, the gunman in the Newtown, Conn., massacre, from slipping through the cracks.

Proponents say the plans, which stand a good chance of being included in any final gun-control bill, would lead to some of the most significant advancements in years in treating mental illness and address a problem that people on both sides of the issue agree is a root cause of gun rampages. Unlike the bitter disagreements that have characterized efforts to limit access to guns, the idea of improving mental health unites Republicans and Democrats, urban and rural, blue state and red state.

“This is a place where people can come together,” said Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan, who has worked with some of the Senate’s most conservative Republicans on a piece of mental health legislation. “As we’ve listened to people on all sides of the gun debate, they’ve all talked about the fact that we need to address mental health treatment. And that’s what this does.”

The issue also appeals to members of Congress in another important way: it serves as a political refuge for Republicans and more conservative Democrats who are eager to offer a federal response to the shootings in Connecticut and Aurora, Colo., but have no interest in taking any action that could be seen as infringing on constitutional gun rights.

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http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/15709-in-gun-debate-no-rift-on-better-care-for-mentally-ill
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In Gun Debate, No Rift on Better Care for Mentally Ill (Original Post) DonViejo Apr 2013 OP
Better mental health will definitely help. But, it shouldn't be considered a substitute for needed Hoyt Apr 2013 #1
So what percentage of gun owners are "cultist" like those in your picture? hack89 Apr 2013 #3
Some fat white guy walking into Chuck E Cheeze with a gun on his hip is just as bad, Hack. Hoyt Apr 2013 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author hack89 Apr 2013 #6
75% eh? premium Apr 2013 #7
Are all gun owners gun cultist? nt hack89 Apr 2013 #14
Someone with a gun or two locked away, probably not. Someone with 4 assault weapons, you tell me? Hoyt Apr 2013 #16
Not true. premium Apr 2013 #17
I don't think you really understand the term. Hoyt Apr 2013 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author premium Apr 2013 #22
I have four AR-15s sitting in a safe hack89 Apr 2013 #24
Zimmerman, Stawicki, NRA Prez Keene's son, Lanza, etc., all felt they were not a threat too. Hoyt Apr 2013 #25
Did they? beevul Apr 2013 #31
The odds are overwhelming that they will not hurt anyone. hack89 Apr 2013 #33
Not nearly as overwhelming as those who don't worship guns, confederate flags, etc. Hoyt Apr 2013 #34
Since neither apply to me and my family, we are good to go. nt hack89 Apr 2013 #36
How many of those people in that picture have shot anyone? Recursion Apr 2013 #30
Shot, not sure. Discriminated, intimidated, etc., probably all of them. Hoyt Apr 2013 #32
Since the majority of gun deaths are sucides hack89 Apr 2013 #2
Let's don't just focus on deaths -- how about wounds, spousal abuse, intimidation, etc. Hoyt Apr 2013 #10
Our mentally ill would need better care even if guns didn't EXIST. kestrel91316 Apr 2013 #4
Suicide is a mental health issue. And suicide is a huge part of the gun debate hack89 Apr 2013 #8
Yea, let's disount the Gabby Giffords of the world because she is still alive. Hoyt Apr 2013 #11
Considering she was shot by a certifiable crazy person hack89 Apr 2013 #12
Anyone with a bunch of lethal weapons (like say 4 assault rifles) has a problem. Hoyt Apr 2013 #15
Only in your mind do they have a problem. nt. premium Apr 2013 #18
Hey, they say a lot of folks with mental health issues don't recognize it. Hoyt Apr 2013 #19
The % of gun owners not on meds premium Apr 2013 #21
What if that person has owned those rifles for 10, 15, 20 years with no problems? hack89 Apr 2013 #23
I'll believe it when the Republicans agree to fund it. PA Democrat Apr 2013 #9
That is not really true. Mental health funds come from upaloopa Apr 2013 #27
NAMI has documented the deep cuts by states on mental health spending PA Democrat Apr 2013 #28
This is awesome news if better funding comes to pass nt steve2470 Apr 2013 #13
So can we put a tax on bullets to fund upaloopa Apr 2013 #26
The mentally ill aren't the problem Recursion Apr 2013 #29
It's better than nothing...the mh program funds are less than $10 per teacher HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #35
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
1. Better mental health will definitely help. But, it shouldn't be considered a substitute for needed
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:23 AM
Apr 2013

gun restrictions.

The gun cultists are getting out of hand. People toting weapons in public, hoarding multiple lethal weapons, playing militia like these losers, etc., are a threat to a civilized society.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
3. So what percentage of gun owners are "cultist" like those in your picture?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

you have been asked this question many times but never answer.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
5. Some fat white guy walking into Chuck E Cheeze with a gun on his hip is just as bad, Hack.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:40 AM
Apr 2013

And probably just as bigoted. That group is about 75% of the gun cultists. Of course many of them overlap with the militia types above.

Response to Hoyt (Reply #5)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
16. Someone with a gun or two locked away, probably not. Someone with 4 assault weapons, you tell me?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:44 PM
Apr 2013

Those defending and promoting guns after tragedies like sandy hook, again you tell me?
 

premium

(3,731 posts)
17. Not true.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:47 PM
Apr 2013

My brother has over 40 handguns and I don't even know how many rifles, many of them semi auto, and he isn't anywhere close to being a "gun cultist".

Response to Hoyt (Reply #20)

hack89

(39,171 posts)
24. I have four AR-15s sitting in a safe
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:07 PM
Apr 2013

one each for me, my wife, son and daughter. We are all target shooters.

I can tell you that we pose no threat. We are certainly not cultist. It is just one facet of our lives.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
25. Zimmerman, Stawicki, NRA Prez Keene's son, Lanza, etc., all felt they were not a threat too.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:49 PM
Apr 2013

I'm sure Lanza's mom and dad introduced their son into the gun culture at an early age, family outings to shoot things and the like. Nice going mom and dad.
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
31. Did they?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:14 PM
Apr 2013

" Zimmerman, Stawicki, NRA Prez Keene's son, Lanza, etc., all felt they were not a threat too."

You know this...how exactly?


hack89

(39,171 posts)
33. The odds are overwhelming that they will not hurt anyone.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:21 PM
Apr 2013

so unlike you I don't let irrational fear rule my life.

Thanks for all you do - it is appreciated.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
32. Shot, not sure. Discriminated, intimidated, etc., probably all of them.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:20 PM
Apr 2013

But, many gun cultists revere right wing bigots with guns.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
2. Since the majority of gun deaths are sucides
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

improved mental health care will go a long way towards reducing gun deaths.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
4. Our mentally ill would need better care even if guns didn't EXIST.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

Mental illness is a red herring in the gun nuttery debate.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
8. Suicide is a mental health issue. And suicide is a huge part of the gun debate
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:44 AM
Apr 2013

because the majority of gun deaths are suicides.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
11. Yea, let's disount the Gabby Giffords of the world because she is still alive.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:03 PM
Apr 2013

Or the wife of a gun nut prone to intimidation.

You guys will do anything to preserve your access to lethal weapons.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
12. Considering she was shot by a certifiable crazy person
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:21 PM
Apr 2013

her shooting is exactly why mental health reform is so important.

It also shows why limits on magazine size is important - which I support.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
15. Anyone with a bunch of lethal weapons (like say 4 assault rifles) has a problem.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:43 PM
Apr 2013

Along with mental health, we need to change the perception of guns (and violence in this country).

Like polluters, banksters, smokers, etc., gun obsession needs to be viewed as a detriment to society.
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
19. Hey, they say a lot of folks with mental health issues don't recognize it.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:52 PM
Apr 2013

I wonder how many so-called gun enthusiasts are on some kind of medication that impedes judgement. Do you think they would voluntarily relinquish their guns. I don't, in fact I bet some would acquire more -- fearing someone might take a few away.
 

premium

(3,731 posts)
21. The % of gun owners not on meds
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:56 PM
Apr 2013

probably far outweigh the ones that are, and not all those that are on meds have mental conditions.

Your arguments have become so ridiculous it's actually entertaining to read them and get a good gut laugh.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
23. What if that person has owned those rifles for 10, 15, 20 years with no problems?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:05 PM
Apr 2013

no accidents, no assaults, no brandishing or threatening? How can you say that person has a problem or represents a threat? Don't people's actual behavior count for anything?

PA Democrat

(13,225 posts)
9. I'll believe it when the Republicans agree to fund it.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:54 AM
Apr 2013

During economic bad times, one of the first places that states will cut spending is on mental health.

People with mental illness and their families unfortunately do not have powerful lobbyists to advocate for them. What is happening is that many of those very same under-served individuals will end up in the prison system, which incidentally has a powerful lobbying presence in DC and every state.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
27. That is not really true. Mental health funds come from
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

mostly federal funds. Federal block grants, Medicaid and Medicare fund the largest part of mental health programs in counties. States add to that with sales taxes and vehicle license fees. In CA we have a 1% millionaires tax for children's mental health. By law that money has to be spent one mental health. The federal money is channeled through the states and passed down to counties that provide the services.
Yet you are right in that the funds are not enough to fit the need.

PA Democrat

(13,225 posts)
28. NAMI has documented the deep cuts by states on mental health spending
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:06 PM
Apr 2013
State Mental Health Cuts: The Continuing Crisis

In March, 2011, NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, released State Mental Health Cuts: A National Crisis, a report documenting deep cuts to state spending on services for children and adults living with serious mental illness.1 These cuts, which occurred between 2009 and 2011, led to significant reductions in both hospital and community services for vulnerable individuals with serious mental illness.

Today, with demand for public mental health services extremely high, especially at a time of severe economic distress, the crisis in mental health care continues.2 The impacts are felt throughout society as people go without the treatment they need.

Increasingly, emergency rooms, homeless shelters and jails are struggling with the effects of people falling through the cracks due to lack of needed mental health services and supports.


Some states, such as California, Illinois, Nevada and South Carolina, which made devastating cuts to mental health services previously, have made further cuts for fiscal year (FY) 2012, putting tens of thousands of citizens at great risk. States have cut more than $1.6 billion in general funds from their state mental health agency budgets for mental health services since FY2009, a period during which demand for such services increased significantly. These cuts translate into loss of vital services such as housing, Assertive Community Treatment, access to psychiatric medications and crisis services.

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=state_budget_cuts_report]


Recursion

(56,582 posts)
29. The mentally ill aren't the problem
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:07 PM
Apr 2013

The mentally ill are about ten times more likely to be victims of gun violence than perpetrators.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
35. It's better than nothing...the mh program funds are less than $10 per teacher
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:33 PM
Apr 2013

and that teacher training money it is the largest part of the spending...

Training teachers isn't treatment. The supplementally educated teachers are supposed to contribute to better access for kids by having an adult in their life notice the signs of mental illness "before they get serious" (and by that it seems to mean before they commit an atrocity in one of our nation's schools)

Much of the money is supposed to turn elementary and secondary teachers into front-line screeners of children for mental health.

I have nothing against teachers, but a course in developmental/ed psych they typically get in their undergrad training isn't going to be much boosted by DEd website on the signs of mental illness or an hour or two in-service workshop.

Even if the content of those programs is good, spending less than $10 to get teachers trained in a such a serious task is really a pittance.

When you look at cutbacks in medicaid programming in the states, this 'new' spending doesn't even come close to breaking even with mental health spending for kids.

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