Topless Tunisian Activist Amina Tyler: 'Femen Are True Feminists But They Have Insulted Muslims'

[kwassa]

I just knew that we desperately needed a new thread on this under-discussed topic.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/10/topless-tunisian-activist-amina-tyler-femen-true-feminists-insulted-muslims_n_3050994.html

A Tunisian activist, who was threatened with death by stoning for baring her breasts online, has broken her silence to condemn the “topless jihad” that was organised in support of her.

............................................................................................................

Amid fears for her life, the 19-year-old was rumoured to be in a psychiatric hospital, while attorney Bochra Bel Haj Hmida insisted Amina was well and with her family.

Now footage of Amina has surfaced on French TV channel Itele, in which the teenager said she does not want to be associated with Femen’s recent actions.

She said: “I am against. Everyone will think that I encouraged their actions. They have insulted all Muslims everywhere and it’s not acceptable.”

[ZombieHorde]

1. A very complex issue. nt

[Phillip McCleod]

2. but there's no reason to suspect coercion, right?

i mean.. fundie muslim parents are notoriously even-handed an open-minded with their teen daughters..

..right?

[kwassa]

3. and do you have any proof of any kind of such coercion?

Please present it.

[Phillip McCleod]

4. nah. i just ask the questions..

..because they need to be asked.

TBH i don't know if i was being sarcastic or not.. as you point out, i don't know enough to make any claim.

i just don't trust fundamentalists.. and i'm not broadbrushing, in this case, i mean specifically those who have threatened her life or even just wish her harm out of a sense of religious fealty.

she has already been coerced. she's a young person, a girl who did an incredibly brave thing, but has had her life threatened and no doubt her family ain't happy.

so i lean on suspicion because i'm not a trusting person, but left out the the because, y'know.. it's complicated?

[Deep13]

201. +1 nt

[Phillip McCleod]

5. also i run across this kind of stuff..

..which just gives one pause in the full context of her situation..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110806201505AA4iuW4

[kwassa]

6. yeah, but are her parents fundamentalists?

Tunisia is a generally secular society with, like many countries in the region, a conservative religious group trying to assert influence. That would be a very bad end, of course, but I have no idea where her parents stand on the religious spectrum. They haven't stoned her, certainly.

[Phillip McCleod]

7. true they haven't stoned her..

..and as i said, who am i except a speculating spectator? tunisia may be politically structured as a secular democratic republic and may have a history of possessing a contextually progressive attitude toward women, but look at the u.s.a. we're the original western secular democratic republic and there's still a strong contingent who would argue that this is a 'christian nation'. hell in north carolina there's wingnuts trying to establish christianity as the state religion.

just because tunisia was or is generally forward looking doesn't mean it will remain so. nor does it mean that everyone in tunisia looks forward.

if it helps.. i would suspect coercion if amina lived in kansas, too, and if the words scrawled on her chest had read, 'fuck the bible' instead of 'fuck the koran'.

[JI7]

10. i don't think she ever said "fuck the koran" and she is still saying she fears for her life

and she wants to leave TUnisia and become a journalist.

so she is being coerced to say those things ?

[The Straight Story]

20. She was beaten by a relative and her phone smashed over it

and threatened.

[kwassa]

23. what is your source for this?

[The Straight Story]

25. See my next post (nt)

[The Straight Story]

24. More:

Tyler has been in hiding since the photos went online. In an interview she did with French satellite television station Canal+, Tyler revealed that she had been kidnapped by her family after the postings, and that her cell phone was broken by her cousin, who then beat her.

Tyler says that she hopes to finish school and become a journalist, but will probably have to leave the country due to the threats she had received both over the phone and on Facebook, including “You're going to die!” and “We're going to throw acid in your face.”

Tyler was thankful for her family's support in the interview and expressed that they were supportive of women's rights, yet feared the consequences of Tyler's actions. The Atlantic reports that Shevchenko believes Tyler’s exposure to the media has been limited, given that she incorrectly stated events that occurred at one of the protests in Paris. The Ukrainian also believes Tyler was speaking under duress at the time, given that she was speaking in a stuttered, halting way while in the presence of her father.

http://www.thecowl.com/world/international-topless-jihad-day-1.3025857#.UWi53Er4KSo

[kwassa]

71. thanks for the link.

[RainDog]

78. great link - thanks

if she was beaten by a male relative, as she, herself, stated in an interview, and if she was speaking in the presence of her father - I have no reason to believe she is anything other than a prisoner of religious patriarchy at this time.

if she is in a situation in which she is not under threat of another beating, then I'd like to hear what she has to say.

[The Straight Story]

80. Guess it won't matter. She showed her boobs and insulted some in islam

therefore, she is not a real feminist because she used her own body to get out a message and didn't take into account the feelings of a patriarchal society that has about a billion followers.

Now...had she shined shoes in the US to make money, well then feminists would be out there helping her out against...well doing what she chose to do I guess?

It all gets confusing sometimes. A woman calls out sexism and is threatened and beaten, BUT she showed boobs which some think have to be hidden all the time, and...well...hell I don't know any more.

Should be easier. Hold open a door. Sexist. Oppose those oppressing millions of women - well she is an islamaphobe who hurts women because she used her body to get out a message.

I guess anything you do is sexist and wrong and hurts women, even if you are a woman, if you don't follow the bible those women follow and get the 'true' way, the only way.

[RainDog]

85. I can simplify the whole thing

it all comes down to economics.

I think it's interesting that females in the former soviet states have been the focus of so much human trafficking and selling themselves into marriage, etc. since the oligarchs have gained power.

certainly not saying that the old system was good - but there are trade offs in every system.

and while the social democracies of northern europe have a fair share of problems - they're also nations with the best laws regarding the importance of child care (and parental leave), with a social safety net for all - even during this bad economic time.

Because care of the elderly and children have been the traditional roles of females for so long - I can't help but wonder why any conservative can claim he or she is pro-family when they seek to undermine the welfare of the most vulnerable among us.

oh wait - I know. Because they want to create an underclass that can be exploited - and that includes sexual exploitation. And this is always backed up by the most regressive religious entities everywhere in the world.

it all comes down to economics.

[JI7]

9. if she was being coerced why would she still defend what she did and even continue

to support Femen.

[Phillip McCleod]

11. well considering she had the words 'fuck the koran' painted on her chest..

..not that long ago..

let's just say the sudden about face is pretty dramatic.

[JI7]

12. there is no about face , and when did she say "fuck the koran" ? she is still defending

what she herself did.

her issue is with femen doing the protests in her name and how it was insulting towards muslims.

[Phillip McCleod]

14. yeh and so was what she *did* .. was insulting to muslims..

'fuck your morals' wasn't directed at hollywood or the westboro baptists. it was directed at islam, and insulted muslims. her naked activism was in itself insulting to some.

she can call out non-muslims for criticizing islam all she wants (and plenty of femen activists are muslim, considering the general sanctions against such activity) but that will just make her a hypocrite. must i be a christian to criticize north carolina's proposed law make christianity the state religion?

[JI7]

16. oh please, this is like saying one is attacking christians if they criticize Fred Phelps or Robertso

once again not all muslims are the same.

what she did was not insulting to muslims . and she never said "fuck the koran".

[Phillip McCleod]

18. no she said 'fuck your morals' naked.

that'll do it. what she said was oh so definitely insulting to muslims.. who she intended to insult.. and i applaud her for it.

muslims have ridiculous beliefs. so do christians. hindus? don't get me started. really? have you ever actually *read* the bhaghvaghita? oy.

she not only did insult muslims.. who threatened to kill her btw.. she *intended* to do so. i think that's great. what's your beef?

[JI7]

21. this is just ignorant, you think Fred Phelps represents all Christians ? Obama must want gays to die

since he is christian like Fred Phelps.

the women who are mostly women in TUnisia have been out protesting against the conservatives for a long time now. these are muslim women . and many men are protesting also.

these are all muslims.

all muslims are not the same.

the only muslim member of Congres sin the United States is pro choice, supports gay rights.

Hugo Chavez was very religious also.

[Phillip McCleod]

28. i made perfectly clear that i was talking about fundies if you want to deflect.. deflect..

but the thread speaks for itself.

yes i think almost all religious beliefs are ridiculous. i'm an atheist, vocal and unapologetic. islam is included. i think liberal believers are ridiculous for thinking there is an historical basis for jesus christ, and carrying water for the republicans. do i think liberal christians are fundies? no, but i think they're cupidity makes them gullible and cowardly when the weakest among us need them the most.

and i think in general islam has the same effect in countries where it predominates.

and i think hinduism has the same effect .. ever hear of the 'untouchables'?

there's a log in your eye, dude.

[JI7]

32. i'm an atheist also, but i can still see people for themselves

there are atheists who do not support Govt programs for the poor. who would be happy to support some ron paul types.

i don't care for any religion really.

[Phillip McCleod]

41. i can see people for themselves too.. and nobody deserves a pedestal.

if she *was* coerced, my sorrow for her suffering would only deepen. my empathy for her situation would only grow. i might even cry for her.

maybe that's why i prefer to remain suspicious. she showed incredible courage.. and now criticizes her supporters?

[JI7]

48. so she can't disagree with anything they do ? she said she herself does not

regret what she did and overall supports femen. but did not like how this particular protest was done in her name and insulted muslims.

[Phillip McCleod]

61. oh she *can* disagree..

..i just might not change my opinion to coincide with her's. i might disagree with her, or even, yes, suspect coercion.

at the minimum i feel that if her criticism is genuine, then it's hypocritical. so i admit in some ways i prefer the conspiracy theory this time. i'm willing to have my balloon popped, though. if she did do an about face, i can more or less dismiss her as a youtube phenom and get back to the chained CPI.

[bettyellen]

161. She talks about wanting to leave Tunisia as soon as possible - and that's coerced too?

[cali]

122. OK. That's just nutty. First of all no is claiming all Muslims are the same.

yes, she undoubtedly, incontravertibly did address Muslims with the message "fuck your morals". Who the hell do you think she was addressing. She was doing so in the context of a resurgence of Muslim fundamentalism in Tunisia. She was addressing those people. They are Muslims.

[bettyellen]

159. she went nowhere near as far as Femen does at mosques in Paris, they HATE Islam....

and Amina does not agree.

[HiPointDem]

97. no she didn't. it was 'fuck your morals'. nothing about the koran.

[Phillip McCleod]

99. same difference.

if she had been in misssissippi instead i would've confused it for 'fuck the bible'.

[HiPointDem]

114. only if you're illiterate.

[CreekDog]

119. "fuck the koran" is same difference as "fuck your morals"? that's the stupidest thing you wrote

and that's saying something.

if anyone listens to you knowing that you've said both statements are equivalent, it's their own fault if your posts make them stupider.

[BainsBane]

165. Maybe it was "Fuck the Qur'an" that turned her off them

Just a wild guess.
Because people always love foreigners who treat them with utter contempt. If only Amina wasn't suffering from Stockholm syndrome, she'd learn to hate herself just as much as so many in the West hate her and other Muslims

[stevenleser]

8. What you have done is proven she is being coerced. The 180 degree turn she has now made is proof.

To go from this:

To saying, "No, protesting with exposed boobs is 'insulting all Muslims everywhere and it's not acceptable' "

and you are buying that as perfectly normal because it attacks Femen.

[R B Garr]

13. Or maybe she was coerced to take off her top to begin with

which one is the coercion?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. Which group has a track record of coercion, and which does not? N.T.

[Comrade Grumpy]

15. She says FEMEN are real feminists.

And she didn't say "protesting with exposed boobs," you did.

Maybe she has reflected on the response to FEMEN's Topless Jihad. But this doesn't prove that, just as it doesn't prove she was coerced.

[Gravitycollapse]

26. You've reduced the legitimacy of her argument to your preconceived narrative.

She is arguing specifically about the insults waged against Muslims by FEMEN, not their topless protests.

[stevenleser]

214. How is that working out for you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022761939

[kwassa]

50. I don't see any proof of coercion. It is not an 180 degree turn.

To saying, "No, protesting with exposed boobs is 'insulting all Muslims everywhere and it's not acceptable' "

and you are buying that as perfectly normal because it attacks Femen.

You are projecting your own meaning on to her comments. This is what she said:

“I am against. Everyone will think that I encouraged their actions. They have insulted all Muslims everywhere and it’s not acceptable.”

She did not say WHY she was against the Topless Jihad protests. It may not have been the boobs, it may have been the caricature of Islam. Or something else. She was not specific as to why in this interview.

[cali]

169. let's see. She says she's been kidnapped by her family. She has no indepependent means of

communication because her family destroyed her cell phone. She was beaten by her cousin. She's not allowed to speak without her father present.

what you are doing, trying to spin this, is unconscionable. PERIOD>

[stevenleser]

184. Right? It's not hard to see what the deal is here.

But, I am happy to wait to see what she says once she emigrates and is no longer in Tunisia or in the clutches of her family.

[cali]

193. there are people in this thread trying to spin the facts in the most contemptible way

to further whatever fucked up agenda they may have.

[Scootaloo]

183. So, because she disagrees with you, she's being forced?

She's talking about Femen's "topless Jihad." She does not, contrary to your dumbfuck lies, say "protesting with bared boobs is insulting to all Muslims everywhere." She says this particular "protest" is insulting.. .and the fact is, it is.

Here's the thing; Amina took these photographs of herself in protest of a specific policy targeting women, that a specific political party is trying to enact, in a specific nation. To express "solidarity," Femen is flashing its collective breasts at mosques in Paris.

What do these mosques have to do with the policy that Amina was protesting? Nothing. By this move - and by the name of their action, "Topless Jihad" - Femen is demonstrating that it is in fact not in solidarity with Amina and her cause, but rather taking Islam and Muslims as a whole as their target. Whether you think that's a good idea or not, point is it doesn't actually mesh with what Amina was doing.

If we assume the best of intentions on Femen's part, this whole thing is still extremely tone-deaf. They say they want ot help Muslim women, maybe they could start by actually listening to Muslim women - including the one they are using as their icon right now.

[stevenleser]

208. How is that working out for you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022761939

[cali]

210. +1 and fuck the tortured, sick "logic"

you're pointing out.

[stevenleser]

211. All the folks who criticized us here owe us an apology. I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder how any thinking person could have bought what these folks bought.

[Number23]

17. I'm sure that images like this may have led to her turnaround

?6

Disgusting. And she is right, I would think this would definitely be considered offensive to any Muslim.

[MellowDem]

22. Disgusting? It's awesome!

Yes, it might be offensive to Muslims, but Islam is a bigoted, misogynistic religion, so that's kinda the point...

[JI7]

29. so you think this is awesome also ?

[MellowDem]

60. No, what a horrible red herring...

I'm all for relevant criticism of Islam (and all religions), like the beliefs Islam itself states it has.

Yes, I understand that many right-wingers are paranoid and attack Islam in ways completely irrelevant (and quite ironic, given many are Christian, and oh boy Christianity is a can of worms as well), but I think people on this site have the intellectual capacity to not link relevant criticisms of Islam with right-wing Islamophobia.

[JI7]

70. i'm very criticial of ISlam , i think it's stupid when someone feels the need to bring

up something done by christians or other religions everytime there is a case of some fundamentalist muslim doing something bad.

but as far as tunisia goes and amina's protests it was never about islam itself.

[Gravitycollapse]

30. You are one of those people who do not understand the difference between criticism and hate speech.

[morningfog]

31. That was hate speech?

[JI7]

35. looks very much like the anti arab stuff i see from the right

[morningfog]

36. Is that hate speech, though?

Hate speech implies that it should not be permitted. Speech is free, within the limit of hate speech. I don't see any hate speech there. Offensive? Yes. Stupid? Probably. Hate speech? I don't see it.

[JI7]

43. when does hate speech imply it should not be permitted ? have you seen the tea bagger protests ?

you don't think that stuff was hate speech just because it was their legal right to do so ?

[MellowDem]

67. Who defines what "hate speech" is...

Maybe the mullahs should?

What people consider "hate speech" is completey subjective. What you SHOULD be asking is what is the criticism of, and is it relevant. Here, the criticism is of Islam's misogynistic beliefs. OK, that's not really hateful IMHO. How it's being done, is it relevant? Yes, in context, of course it's relevant.

If you don't like the tactics FEMEN uses, that's fine, but it's not hateful. It's just a way to ridicule a misogynistic belief system. Just because the belief system happens to be a religion doesn't give it special privilege.

[idwiyo]

181. Did you finally manage to learn the difference between Islam and Islamism?

[Gravitycollapse]

27. Clearly that image goes beyond criticism of Islam...

And dives into the realm of hate speech. There is a difference even if certain people don't understand the divide.

Really though, that image doesn't just insult Muslims. It is insulting to Arabic people in general.

[polly7]

33. How would you describe this one?

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/04/femen-stages-a-topless-jihad/100487/

[Gravitycollapse]

40. I feel that the man in the photo should probably be castrated.

[morningfog]

46. I hope you aren't serious.

[Gravitycollapse]

74. I'm not.

[polly7]

51. No.

I hope the next camera frame caught him falling back on his ass ......... but, castration? That's a bit harsh, no?

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Yes, that was hyperbole on my part. Maybe he should just be kicked really hard in the groin.

[Coyotl]

95. That is in front of a mosque as an old fart tries kicking for the first time in decades.

And looks like he's going to fall on his topless jihad-hating ass

[morningfog]

39. Explain the divide. How is it hate speech?

[Gravitycollapse]

45. It's a racist physical caricature of Arab men. The equivelant of black face.

[morningfog]

49. Is that hate speech? Offensive does not equal hate speech.

Racism does not even equal hate speech.

[Gravitycollapse]

52. It is in fact the very definition of hate speech.

[morningfog]

54. No it isn't.

[Gravitycollapse]

57. Yes, it is.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/hate-speech/

"Hate speech is a communication that carries no meaning other than the expression of hatred for some group, especially in circumstances in which the communication is likely to provoke violence. It is an incitement to hatred primarily against a group of persons defined in terms of race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and the like. Hate speech can be any form of expression regarded as offensive to racial, ethnic and religious groups and other discrete minorities or to women."

[morningfog]

68. What violence is provoked other than the assholes who like to kill

because of cartoons? There is more than expressing hatred here. In fact, I don't even see that as necessarily a point. I don't see hatred. I see a welcome to a group drowning and getting left behind in a myth to join this century.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. Violent outcome is not necessitated for hate speech. It is simply a possible outcome.

The core of the definition is a xenophobic attack against a group of people for some or many characteristics.

From the fake turban, to the uni-brow, to the beard...those are racist stereotypes of Arab men. It is hate speech for that very reason.

[cali]

124. absolute bullshit. ugh.

[MellowDem]

84. No, it's a caricature of Iranian mullahs....

and no, it's not equivalent to black face, on several levels.

[Gravitycollapse]

86. I think you've made it pretty clear that you hate Muslims.

So your opinion on the matter carries no weight.

[MellowDem]

89. Wow, so I hate Muslims because you suck at arguing your points?

Why don't you point out what makes it "pretty clear" I hate Muslims?

Or why don't you answer the fact that I just pointed out your ridiculous "black face" analogy was quite stupid?

[Gravitycollapse]

91. we could start with that hate filled post that was hidden...

In my thread.

[MellowDem]

107. It was hidden, but not hate filled...

Feel free to point out what was hate filled about the hidden post (I guess I can't repost what I said). Either way, you've now accused me of hating Muslims with nothing to back it up.

Obviously, I disagree with the jury results, but that's not proof of it being hate filled. To me, it's proof that specific jury can't differentiate harsh and relevant criticism of religion from hatred. Religion still gets preferential treatment. As if when I criticize conservative ideology harshly (and which is done all the time on here), I "hate" everyone that holds to it. I don't hate people, I don't hate bigots etc., I disagree with them. Hatred of people is useless to me. I hate certain ideologies and ideas.

People often don't have lots of control over their religion (or even ideologies to a degree), being influenced by things like where they were born, who their parents are, etc. So there is no point to hate someone simply for holding disgusting beliefs, it's not like it was all their choice, they've been indoctrinated into it (almost every time with religion, and also with ideologies), and I view them as victims of themselves and their parents/society/whatever than hated enemies, and also as potential allies if their minds can be changed.

[Gravitycollapse]

117. Your God complex is adorable.

[MellowDem]

123. What makes you think I think of myself as a god?

I mean, I don't even believe in gods. This is fun, I'm keeping tallies of all the things you assert and fail to back up.

You still haven't responded to my critique of your blackface analogy, all you responded with was an ad-hom that I hate Muslims, and then when you haven't backed that up, you use another ad-hom that I have a God complex.

Are you going to actually try to back up any of your ridiculous claims? Or is another ad-hom coming?

[Gravitycollapse]

136. God complex does not mean you think you are a God

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex

[MellowDem]

140. Ascribing godlike qualities to myself like "infallibility"...

would make it seem like it's where I think of myself like a god (hence "God complex&quot , but semantics aside, can you show evidence of this? That I find myself infallible? Maybe you can read my mind? What special privileges am I demanding? What belief do I have that is unshakeable? Or are you just spouting random bullshit?

What do you call a person that doesn't address points of discussion, but instead responds with personal attacks? I call them assholes. In a way, they have god complexes, since the "rules" of discussion don't apply to them.

[Gravitycollapse]

143. I am not having a discussion with you.

You're not worth it. I'm just poking you with a stick at this point.

People like you don't belong in any progressive movement.

[MellowDem]

150. Obviously, you're a bully...

Bullies don't have discussions. They do poke people with sticks though. They do tell people "they aren't worth it". They do try to dictate who belongs where. They do use personal insults in place of meaningful discusson.

[Gravitycollapse]

154. ...

[riderinthestorm]

157. Yes, well Gravitycollapse's Guide to Proper Ladylike Protests is THE book!

Doncha know...

As evidenced on this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022655748

There are rules for women protesting, especially those protesting Islamist policies (which s/he appears to have confused with Islam...)

1. They must be members of the oppressed group to be authentic protesters. None of this protesting "inauthentically" in solidarity with oppressed groups! So forget protesting alongside Hispanic groups about immigration policies etc. if you are NOT Hispanic for example, or against Rwanda, or Israel etc. Nope. Verboten per GC. "Outside agencies" (whatever the hell that means) are strictly not allowed to protest in solidarity.

2. They must not do so in a manner that might make anyone uncomfortable! Nosirree! No discomfort or you are doing it wrong!

3. You can only do it in approved Gravitycollapse zones. Because if you get too close to those you are trying to reach? Beep! Discomfort and embarrassment! Can't have that in a protest!

4. Absolutely NO taking off of clothes!

5. The protest must only be about giving the aggrieved group "agency". If its just about getting the message out, or publicizing wrongdoing - sorry, not acceptable!

6. Any protest GC doesn't approve of gets labelled as "neo-colonial". Its handy that way to shut down discussion with a trite phrase regardless of the FACTS that the "colonialists" themselves are the ones protesting their Islamist overlords.

[Gravitycollapse]

158. awww i have a stalker.

How cute.

[riderinthestorm]

160. Nothing cute about anti-free speech, anti-women shit.

So when that happens, especially on DU, I take notice.

And take names.

[Gravitycollapse]

163. It's always funny when people confuse dissent with anti-free-speech.

[cali]

170. Someone challenging you is not stalking. Don't like it? Don't post on a discussion board.

[snooper2]

156. twigs don't count as sticks

[Number23]

62. "that image doesn't just insult Muslims. It is insulting to Arabic people in general."

Absolutely.

[MellowDem]

83. Uhh, how?

It's a caricature of Iranian mullahs, where Sharia law is in place. And Iran isn't even Arabic.

[Number23]

92. "It's a caricature of Iranian mullahs"

Wow. No wonder you seem so terribly confused about this thread.

I have no idea where you pulled that out of. Tunisia, where Amina is protesting, is not in Iran. Sharia Law is not only in Iran. The picture is a caricature of Arab men which FEMEN was protesting, or do you think that only "Iranian mullahs" ( ) wear turbans and have unibrows?

Your post is nothing short of completely bizarre and fairly astounding in its ignorance.

[MellowDem]

105. Sharia law is heavily associated with Iran...

and the whole point was that the protesters didn't want it spreading to Tunisia. Iranian mullahs have been caricatured before, often in cartoons, not exactly something new. Similar to caricaturing nuns and other religious figures (which FEMEN has also caricatured before).

I have no idea how it is a caricature of Arab men, or where FEMEN said they were protesting Arab men? You seem to be reading into it what you want to.

[Number23]

120. Sharia law is used throughout many Islamic countries and is not "associated" with only one country

There are countries throughout the Arab world that utilize sharia law.

You can cling to your belief that the woman with the towel on her head and the unibrow was only mocking "Iranian mullahs" if that's what makes you happy. I honestly don't care and don't think it has any bearing on the reality of the situation.

[morningfog]

34. So what if it is offensive. That is the point.

Welcome to the world. No one has a right to not be offended.

[Number23]

56. I'm sure your post was a slam dunk in your head

The OP explains why Amina is upset with FEMEN and she calls their topless jihad "offensive to Muslims." I post a picture of why she may have come to that conclusion and you -- for reasons truly known only to you -- respond with the hilariously stupid "no one has a right to not be offended" comment posted by the happily oblivious all over the world.

What does anything you've written have to do with anything in this OP? I happen to be of the mindset that being ignorant and deliberately offensive doesn't do anyone any favors. It makes the people you are most trying to support distance themselves from you. Which is exactly what Amina is doing with FEMEN.

[morningfog]

64. She offended. She got offended. People take themselves and their myths too seriously.

[Number23]

66. As some people do that with trolling.

[morningfog]

69. Is that how you end discussions?

Strange.

[Number23]

72. Yep. Especially when it's obvious the person is just trying to start shit

[cali]

172. She is under duress. She says she was beaten and kidnapped. Gad, what part of any of that is

hard to understand?

[Number23]

175. You're one to ask about a lack of understanding.

Whether she was beaten and under duress or not, that picture is offensive and ridiculous, which was no doubt the goal of the woman in in it. And Amina was not the only Muslim woman offended by it.

[cali]

176. I didn't say it wasn't offensive to some people. I do say it's not hate speech

it's commentary. It clearly has a purpose beyond hate just as Serrano's "Piss Christ" does. I may not like it, I may be offended by one or the other but neither qualify as hate speech.

[Number23]

178. And where did *I* say it was hate speech?

And even if it's "commentary" as you want to call it, it is still ignorant, offensive and (judging by Amina's and other Muslim women's reaction) completely counter-productive.

Amina took great pains to say that she still supported FEMEN calling them "true feminists" but that she was offended by some of their tactics. I think her response is entirely reasonable given some of the stunts they've pulled, including that picture I posted.

[JI7]

180. was this piss christ done in a protest claiming to support Christians ?

[cali]

191. uh, that is utterly irrelevant. yikes. critical thinking. try it.

[JI7]

195. no it isn't, that's why i can see the difference between

someone doing something like this while claiming to support a group that is often ridiculed in that way.

i thought the piss christ was stupid regardless of how offensive it was . but if he did it as a way to show support for christians that just makes it worse.

[backscatter712]

94. No, it was fundie asshole family members kidnapping her & beating the shit out of her.

But didn't you know, Islam is a peaceful religion!

[MellowDem]

19. Feminists should insult bigoted misogynist religions...

There is NOTHING wrong with insulting people who hold misogynist, bigoted beliefs. It just so happens that any true believer in the Big 3 religions does indeed hold bigoted, misogynist beliefs.

Muslims were insulted!? Well boo fucking hoo! Their entire belief system is disgustingly insulting to women!

I'm sick to death of this religious "privilege" people claim from having their BELIEF SYSTEM insulted! If you don't like having your beliefs insulted, then defend them, if you can, or grow some thicker skin, because tip toeing around your insane, harmful beliefs has gone on too long.

[JI7]

37. are there only Atheist Feminists ?

[MellowDem]

47. No, there are religions that aren't misogynistic...

and plenty of feminists identify with misogynistic religions, I'm just pointing out that this is intellectually dishonest and engagin in cognitive dissonance.

[JI7]

55. it's dishonest to say Amina was protesting against religion itself

as i said, it's like saying one is opposing christianity if they don't like Fred Phelps or pat robertson.

[MellowDem]

76. I didn't say she was... nt

[Quantess]

38. "They have insulted Muslims"

and another day goes by. What else is new?

[morningfog]

44. My sentiments exactly. Some day those Muslims who get offended by living in this century

will get the fuck over themselves. Or they won't. I could not care less about what offends them, or anyone else.

[get the red out]

177. Exactly!!!!!

I am getting sick of being expected to just "understand" the hows and whys of their misogyny and everything else that spews nothing but hate from them. I am sick of their hate just like I am sick of Christian extremist hate.

[Skip Intro]

63. +100. nt

[GoneOffShore]

106. Thank you.

You said it before I could.

[The Straight Story]

42. Also, from the the article you linked: Does she support femen?

“Until I’m 80-years-old. Because they are true feminists.”

[JI7]

58. yeah, but according to some she is being coerced to say that

[kwassa]

59. Yes, she does.

Seems a bit paradoxical, but there is not a clear explanation from her.

[JI7]

65. based on everything she has done and said i think i understand her

her issue is with the conservatives . just like we protest against republicans in this country with their anti women , anti gay crap.

but some have turned it into opposing religion.

but the thing is that women have been protesting the conservatives for a long time now. and those women are muslims also.

again it's about seeing people for themselves rather than thinking it's about religion.

[kwassa]

77. It is tough to get much nuance in 3-word slogans painted on the body. Reductio ad absurdum.

Maybe that's the 3-word slogan to use.

A problem with these protests are the messages themselves. What little do they say?

[Gravitycollapse]

81. This is a problem theorized about quite a bit in academia.

And I have discussed the effective "stupidity" of mass protests in the context of many subjects.

Something like feminism is a subject worthy of hundreds of thousands or millions of pages worth of discovery, theory, criticism and implementation.

For practical purposes, protests cannot address that fact. They have to reduce the subject down to base objections. This allows for publicity but takes away from the complexity.

[kwassa]

87. "Fuck Your Morals" is particularly inscrutable.

How that is actually done? What does this mean?

[Zorra]

101. Are you a Professor of Women's Studies, or something similar, at a University? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

167. I am not a professor.

However, much of my time is spent around professors. Most of them are involved with women and gender studies.

[Zorra]

104. We had this exact same problem with Occupy protests. No matter how simple or obvious

we tried to make our point, some people couldn't, or wouldn't, get it. Most often, I believe they wouldn't get it because they didn't like what we were trying to do, we were challenging their dearly held beliefs, so they tried to derail our message, either deliberately, or subconsciously because the cognitive dissonance between our message and their dearly held beliefs was too much for them to process.

Some people will waste their time trying to make a complex issue out of a simple statement like "The sky is blue", if it somehow conflicts with their dearly held beliefs. It appears that conservatives are particularly prone to cognitive dissonance.

I'm pretty sure most everyone here understands what Amina meant by "Fuck Your Morals", especially given the context that she was threatened with death by theocratic fascists, and that her cousin broke her cell phone and beat her for protesting.



Some with a vested interests in derailing messages of protest groups that challenge the status quo, particularly those with economic, religious, or ego driven vested interests, will very often deliberately attempt to derail the simple messages of groups challenging the status quo, sometimes even for some type of compensation.

[kwassa]

108. Actually, no, I still don't know what "Fuck your morals" means. All the Femen protesters seem to use

this as their slogan.

To me, it seems to make them opposed to morality, yet they themselves are trying to claim a moral stance. It is a very unclear statement.

[Zorra]

111. In a nutshell, Femen does not want religions, and religon controlled states or persons,

imposing unreasonable and illogical moral, ethical, social, and legal inequities and restrictions that are based in superstition imposed upon women. I personally agree with this position.

"Fuck your morals" particularly when scrawled across a woman's naked torso in response to theocratic fascists who use religion as a moral basis for/means of legally and socially controlling and oppressing women, is a message meaning "We don't want your arbitrary morality based in patriarchal superstitions imposed upon us and used as a means for subjugating, controlling, demeaning, and denigrating women anymore."

Morality
/məˈralətē/
Noun
Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.

Fuck
interjection
5.
Slang. (used to express anger, disgust, peremptory rejection, etc., often followed by a pronoun, as you or it.)

Fuck Your Morality = We Reject Your Morality.

[cali]

125. I don't understand how you cannot know what they're saying. It couldn't be clearer.

[kwassa]

129. What on earth is clear about it? Who are they addressing when it is written in English?

Western media outlets? So the protest about fucking the morals of the Western media?

Whose morals are they fucking and why are they fucking them?

[cali]

134. I don't continue discouses with people who or either deliberately obtuse or

actually have succeeded in deluding themselves. It's pointless. But btw, written English is widely used in protests all over the world. Tahrir Square, for instance.

In any case, I'm done. I'm not into silly games.

[kwassa]

138. Bye! Suit yourself.

You never really engaged in the first place.

[riderinthestorm]

141. Uhm, see post #111? Zorra's has spelled it out for you?

Unless you ARE being deliberately obtuse?

[Zorra]

144. Are you by any chance a fundamentalist evangelical Christian? nt

[kwassa]

145. not even close.

[Zorra]

147. Next guess: Lifetime practicing Catholic born into the Church? nt

[kwassa]

148. You're getting colder.

[Zorra]

152. Last guess, I promise: Practicing liberal Protestant?

[kwassa]

153. Bingo!

and I was brought up Unitarian.

What suggests all this to you?

[Zorra]

155. You are obviously religious, and I was thinking that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance in

not being able to comprehend the message "Fuck Your Morals", when the meaning is readily apparent to most everyone else.

I was thinking maybe you were so steeped in religious doctrine since birth that you could not grasp the possibility that morality could exist without religion, or a God, and therefore could not grasp what it means when Femen expresses "Fuck Your Morals" in the way they do

But liberal Protestants generally don't manifest such deep reactionary cognitive dissonance, which is almost universal among conservative fundy evangelicals.

So I am kind of at a loss here, but it doesn't matter, most people get it, so the message is getting out.

Peace.

[kwassa]

162. "Cognitive dissonance" seems to be the buzz phrase of the past couple weeks.

I think you missed my entire point.

I never said or implied that morality required religion to exist.

What I said in another post on this subject on another thread is this:

"Fuck your morals" is a meaningless phrase in it's sheer vagueness. Almost everyone has some kind of moral code that they adhere to, or have some belief in, whether or not it is religiously based or not.

What does this slogan mean? Whose morals are they talking about? Are they opposed to the idea of morals altogether? Are they talking about sexual "morality", or other forms of morality? Morals is a big subject, and this slogan seems to be opposed to all of it in it's absolutism.

[cali]

173. It's called context. simple really.

nothing vague about it.

[idwiyo]

186. You really don't understand? That's sad. Seriously sad. Unless of course it's deliberate...

[Zorra]

133. See post #104.

[cali]

135. well said. I am now backing out of this thread or to put it another way

I'm exiting crazytown.

[kwassa]

139. That should make this thread a little saner.

[cali]

174. no. it is your presence here and your Orwellian take on this situation

that does that. And after a breather, I'm back to counter the crazy stuff.

[Luminous Animal]

103. Also, in the title of the OP.

[kwassa]

75. This version of Amina's interview with CANAL+ is more clear.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/subject-of-femens-topless-jihad-questions-the-groups-tactics/274790/

Had she in fact been kidnapped by her family, as was widely reported, after uploading her pictures to Femen's page? She implied as much.

"My family found me in a café and took me home. My cousin broke my cell phone and beat me." She was then moved "to another city in Tunisia." Had she been forced to stay with her family? "Yes, of course. I don't want to stay in Tunisia . . . I hope to leave Tunisia and leave my family and all these threats." Now and then she smiled uncomfortably, her voice sounding mostly flat and expressionless.

She declared that she still supported Femen. "I encourage their acts, as I have ever since I saw the first Femen photos on Facebook and up till now."

She then complained that Femen had "carried out a protest" - on April 4, which Femen declared Topless Jihad Day in support of Amina - "during which they burned the flag of Islam in front of a mosque in Paris. I'm against that. It will do me harm, since they had written Amina on their bodies." (In fact, her name figures nowhere among the slogans the three activists involved painted on their chests and backs; and the flag was the Salafist banner inscribed with the Shahada, or the Muslim profession of faith.) "Everyone will think I encouraged them to do that." Tyler found it "unacceptable" that Femen would "insult . . . Muslims who are extremist . . . they have insulted all Muslims. It's not acceptable."

[RainDog]

79. Thanks for this one, too

[Zorra]

82. "My cousin broke my cell phone and beat me." Amina's body must be a serious source of

her cousin's honor.

Frank Zappa defines Theocratic Fascism.

[kwassa]

88. Her father is much more supportive than her cousin. From the same interview:

A man sitting with his arms crossed at a table next to Tyler then appeared in the frame, his face blurred to protect his identity. Tyler said, "I was really lucky, because another father would have killed his daughter for this act. But my father was rather open with me. He has every right to think what he wants to think. He thinks I'm still watching cartoons . . . I've grown up and he'll believe it one day or another."

Her presumed father then spoke in heavily accented French. "We fear for her and for the threats on Facebook and for what has happened at the mosque in Paris." He added, "we can express ourselves in favor of women's rights, but an image that can shock society, it's an image that scares us and hurts us."

Tyler then livened up, smiling and squirming in her chair.

"During the past days she wasn't smiling," he said. "Only now is she beginning to smile. She's very cute when she smiles."

[Marrah_G]

102. Imagine being in a culture where a girl thinks she is lucky...

... that her father doesn't literally kill her if she breaks the rules.

[Zorra]

127. I believe that I would either have escaped to France by the age of 12,

or died trying.

[RainDog]

90. Novak was so culturally clueless

He was, I suppose, unaware of the dirty blues or the history of popular songs.

Dinah Washington (1954) Big Long Sliding Thing

Harry Roy (British big band, 1931) My Girl's Pussy

just name just two - because the history of popular music, before music was ever recorded, included raunchy songs that, btw, were big hits and many are still considered classics of their genres.

[Zorra]

96. Frank, on the other hand was acutely...microscopically, you might say...aware of culture. nt

[HiPointDem]

98. i haven't been able to find the full video anywhere. all the full videos on youtube say

'not available in your country,' & the ones on canal's website won't play.

i found a different intervew a couple of days ago that was filmed by a freedom house-linked tunisian blogger, but now i can't find it.

the 'freedom house' connection is very intriguing.

us government/right wing/ned/usaid

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. Here's one of about 6 minutes

It's titled "Intégralité de l'interview d'Amina" - "Full interview with Amina" - and my French isn't great, but I think the Atlantic article covers pretty much everything notable in it.

[Catherina]

113. Yes... this article is more clear and accurate. Thanks n/t

[rexcat]

110. There should be no surprise here...

since all of the Abrahamic religions are male dominated and misogynistic in nature. There might be some sects/cults in any of the three religions represented by the Abrahamic religions that are not misogynistic but they would be the exception.

Of course there will be some religious apologist who might disagree with me on this and good luck with that.

[Catherina]

112. The video in post 100 does not support the author's assertion

The full video in post 100 does not support the article.


Amina at no time condemned the topless protests. She condemned one particular act that took place at a Paris mosque. Amina is under the mistaken impression that they burned the flag of Islam thus insulting all Muslims. That did not happen. They burned the black flag of the Salafists and jihadists who are trying to repress Tunisian (and Egyptian etc) women.

This is the Black Salafist flag in question




Here's my hasty translation:


She thanks everyone who has supported her. She can't go back to school except possibly to a private school but she doubts they'd accept her too. She has to leave Tunisia because she received a lot of death threats and she's afraid for her life and her family's life, especially in view of the many rumors about what the Salafists and Islamists plan to do to her. She received threats on the phone and on Facebook "you're going to die, we're going to throw acid on your face, things like that".

- When you disappeared, People say that you were kidnapped.

Euh, my family found me in a cafe, they brought me home, my cousin broke my phone, euh he hit me and afterwards I stayed with my family and afterwards we left for another city in Tunisia.

- Were you forced (required) to stay with your family?

Yes of course.

- Did you want to?

No. (pause) No, I don't want to stay in Tunisia in general. I'm going to leave Tunisia, hoping... I hope I can leave Tunisia and then I'm going to leave my family and going to leave all these threats. I'm going to live in a boarding school I hope. That's it.

- Do you still support FEMEN?

Yes.

- Why?

Because I encourage their reactions. Ever since I saw the first photos of them on Facebook up until now. But there was something they did yesterday, I heard about it, I didn't see it, that they burned the flag of Islam in front of a Paris Mosque. I'm against that because it will cause problems for me because they wrote "Amina" on their body... thus everyone will think I encouraged them to do that. It's not acceptable to react in such a radical way, with something so.... because that didn't insult the certain tyope of Muslims who are extremists but all Muslims so that's not acceptable.

I hope I can continue my studies overseas, become a journalist, something like that...

- You will support FEMEN whatever happens?

Yes, even whhen I'm 80 years old because they're true feminists.
I'm very lucky because other fathers would have killed their daughters over such an act but my father was open enough with me. Well he has every right to think what he wants. He still thinks I'm a little girl, that I go watch cartoons and then go out with my female cousin to do whatever with my but I grew up and he'll see it someday.


Her father then explains that they're afraid for her because of the threats circulating on Facebook, that they support women's rights and freedom of women but that the thing that happened at the Paris Mosque wasn't good because they're a very Muslim family... but an image that can shock society is an image that also scares you, that hurts us. During these days she hasn't been smiling at all, it's only now that she's starting to smile. She's very cute when she does.

Do you want to marry me off Amina asks

[Luminous Animal]

115. That isn't the flag that they burned

This is the one:


Sabiha Mahmoud explains:

http://voiceofarevolutionary.com/2013/04/10/femen-burning-islamic-flag-addressed-to-femen/

I want to add a note about the flag they burnt here: the Black Standard (a blank black flag) was often the standard flag during the time of the Prophet and in the state under his leadership. According to some traditions, the first-ever Black Standard was actually from a dress of Aisha, wife of the Prophet. Several different flag types and motifs became popular afterwards; one common motif is a calligraphy of Shahadah – the declaration of faith, the creed of Islam. This motif is used on black, white, and green flags quite often by different countries, institutions, or groups. The particular flag they used Black-White Shahadah, is a generic one used by many Muslims, it is not necessarily a flag of any Islamist organisation

[Catherina]

118. Yeah you're right about the flag though they're both from the same family

According the Wiki, they're all basically the same though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Standard
But it's the one you posted that they burned. Thanks

I don't agree with the note you posted though. That flag is not a generic one used by many Muslims according to the Muslim friends I asked. It's been brought back into vogue by the extremists. Kind of like pulling an old explanation of the confederate flag and saying that's what it means today.

Wiki confirms that. So I'm going to stick with my friends who have no dog in this race and with Wiki.

Jihadist black flag

A black flag with the shahada inscribed in white was spotted on Jihadist websites from at least 2001. Even though the historical black banner did not have any inscription, this variant is commonly known as al-rāya "the banner" or rayat al-`uqab "banner of the eagle" after the hadith tradition, and has been dubbed the black flag of jihad by western observers.[12] Islamic extremist organizations that used such a black flag include al‑Qaeda, al‑Shabaab, the Islamic Courts Union, the Islamic State of Iraq and Hizbul Islam (2009). Some variant designs depict the second phrase of the shahada in the form of the historical seal of Muhammad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Standard[13]

Islamic extremism
Al-Liwaa.svg
Flag of Jihad.svg
Main article: Black flag of Jihad

The Taliban replaced their solid white flag with a white flag inscribed with the shahada in black as they took power in Afghanistan in 1997. Political Islamism and Islamic terrorism has been using black flags inscribed with the shahada in white since ca. 2001.

During the 2000s, it became popular in Islamist jargon to refer to the black flag as al-raya and the white flag as al-liwa', after the terms of the black and white flags flown by Muhammad according to the hadith. The white flag is sometimes identified as the "flag of the Caliphate" while the black one is dubbed the "flag of Jihad".[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_flags

[kwassa]

116. Protesters in other cities did write Amina on their bodies, or held up signs with her name.

There is a series of these photos at this site. I don't know that anyone burned flags.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/04/04/femen-targets-islam-in-bare-breast-brussels-protest/

Here is an example from Milan.

[riderinthestorm]

121. So what's your point? We know they were protesting in solidarity with Amina

who was protesting the growing Islamism in her 98% Muslim country Tunisia which has Islam enshrined in its constitution (so much so that governmental offices must be held by Muslims)...



She had this interview after getting beat up by her cousin and "kidnapped" by her family from a coffee shop, with her independent means of communication to others (her cell phone) confiscated and broken. So she can only speak while being tended by a male relative.

I'm not sure exactly what you think she's going to say, or how believeable anything she says under those conditions is going to be...?

[kwassa]

126. My point is that she was essentially correct in saying that protesters were painting her name

on their naked bodies, a point disputed narrowly be Femen, something she didn't like.

What is your point?

I find what she says more believable than you do. Her father sounded sympathetic to her cause and her plight.

[cali]

128. She couldn't more clearly be under duress and that includes duress from her father

She says that, for pity's sake. YOU want to believe something and you are twisting everything so that you can maintain some fiction you've created. UGH.

[kwassa]

130. Duress from her father? and where do you have the slightest proof of that?

I am pointing out that there is much unknown from the situation. There has been nothing but speculation on this site for days about what really happened, with very little to no first hand information. That changed when I first found and posted two articles on her interview with CANAL+.

I'm sure that Amina is under duress. I don't see evidence that she is under duress from her father. I think this is speculation on your part.

I have twisted nothing, as there is not a great deal of evidence of anything at all. The only hard evidence is this interview, as little as this tells us.

[cali]

131. It's right there.

and that interview most surely does tell us a great deal. It tells us she doesn't want to be there. It tells us she's been through and ordeal including being physically beat by her cousin- which is ILLEGAL, btw. It tells us she's concerned for her well being, indeed for her life. Her not wanting to be with her family obviously includes her father. It tells us far more and how you cannot see all this, well, you don't want to see what is right under your nose. This young woman feels oppressed and she wants out.

[kwassa]

137. You read more into parts of that interview than I see there.

Like I said, much of this is unclear. As Catherine translated it, her cousin hit her and smashed her phone. Is this a single hit, or a prolonged beating?

And from the other verbiage, it sounds like her father was being supportive of her.

And Amina looks stressed and wants out, but her father is not contradicting her desires for education or for leaving, or her statements in support of Femen.

[cali]

171. wow. would it make OK with if her cousin just hit her once and smashed

her cell phone? That is unbelievably telling regarding YOU. Disgusting. and no her father kidnapped her. she says so. He won't let her speak without being present.

She is obviously frightened. She says so. I don't need to read into it. It's right there in front of everyone. Including you.

[Gravitycollapse]

164. And you're essentially saying her word can't be trusted because she might be scared.

Way to write off her constitution.

[cali]

168. she is scared. she says she's scared. she's been beaten and threatened. fuck I hate denial and

dishonesty.

[riderinthestorm]

142. So when she says at least her father didn't "kill her", that's supportive?

Really?

Your version of supportive and mine are very different. She wasn't even allowed to speak to a reporter without a male presence!

She wants to leave - check. She's been beaten by family - check. She's had her sole method of independent communication severed - check.

The only positive statement in the whole interview is that her father says she's "cute" when she smiles. And you don't see a whole lot of problems with this?

You must be male.

Really. I have no idea since I didn't check your profile but you must be male. There are alarm bells all over this interview for me (a female).

[kwassa]

146. "we can express ourselves in favor of women's rights" is something he also said.

You are filling in unknown details with your own narrative.

You don't know if she was allowed or not allowed to speak to a reporter without a male present. You assume that she wasn't. There is no evidence either way.

She was hit and had her phone smashed by a cousin, then her family moved her elsewhere. Was that a response to the threat from her cousin? From others? No details.

And she says she wants to leave her family and Tunisia right in front of her dad, and he doesn't object to that or prevent her from saying that.

[riderinthestorm]

149. You are really working hard to make her situation okay.

There's no rationalizing with you since you aren't female and clearly don't have any experience in the DV/abuse/sexual assault realms. There are problems writ large throughout the interview.

Have a good night.

[kwassa]

151. No, I am just saying there is a lot we don't know.

and it is not safe to assume that we do.

[get the red out]

179. But liberals aren't supposed to criticize Islam

That's the "rule".

[idwiyo]

188. Why are you trying to misinterpret what she actually said?

[Catherina]

132. The way she said it in French

her problem was with them having her name written on their bodies when they burned the flag that she was told was a flag of Islam. She linked those two statements and explained that with her names written on their bodies when they burned the flag, it made it look like she asked them to do that.

I don't think she'll care much when she finds out it was a black flag they burned.

The flag burning was in front of the Paris mosque.



Tunisian FEMEN activist Meriam burned a salafists flag in front of the Mosque in Paris as a symbol of women's fight with wild religious extremism. Arab Sextremist gave a sign of womens standoff to those who kill and rape in the name of Allah. The recent call of Tunisian salafist to stone Tunisian activist AMINA was the last point before big women's riot.

http://femen.org/en/news/page/5

[Gravitycollapse]

166. It's important to note that these protesters are completely missusing the term Jihad...

Which, contrary to popular opinion, is an important aspect of conventional, peaceful Islam. And these idiots are basically wiping their ass with it.

[idwiyo]

189. How are they misusing it?

[Gravitycollapse]

190. I think a better question is how are they using it correctly?

Because there are so many reasons for why they are misusing it. To start, they aren't Muslim. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml

[idwiyo]

198. As you are the one who said FEMEN is misusing the term, its up to you to explain why.

[Gravitycollapse]

199. I just gave you the most fundamental reason. They aren't Muslim.

[idwiyo]

200. Muslims are the only ones who are allowed to use that word? Is this a new universal law?

I thought you were joking, looks like you are serious. Maybe there is a Universal law that reserves word jihad for use by Muslims only and I just managed to miss it somehow. Can you provide a proof for its existence?

[Gravitycollapse]

202. Non-Muslims cannot wage Jihad. Unless definitions and histories do not matter to you.

Which is similar to the idea that atheists cannot partake of holy communion. At least, not in any meaningful sense original to the idea. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

FEMEN is reappropriating the term Jihad in such a manner that is offensive not only to it's actual meaning but also to Muslims who view Jihad as a positive aspect of their religious ideology.

[idwiyo]

205. Literal meaning of Arabic word "jihad" is "struggle" Anyone can use that word in any language

they wish, including Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

In Modern Standard Arabic, jihad is one of the correct terms for a struggle for any cause, violent or not, religious or secular (though كفاح kifāḥ is also used).[citation needed] For instance, Mahatma Gandhi's satyagraha struggle for Indian independence is called a "jihad" in Modern Standard Arabic (as well as many other dialects of Arabic); the terminology is also applied to the fight for women's liberation.[16]

[Gravitycollapse]

206. FEMEN's usage of "Jihad" is in direct reference to the Islam they protest.

[idwiyo]

207. Read my post above for the definition and usage of word "jihad". BTW, did you finally manage

to figure out the difference between Islam and Islamism?

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #202)Mon Apr 15, 2013, 12:51 AM
idwiyo (1,745 posts)
205. Literal meaning of Arabic word "jihad" is "struggle" Anyone can use that word in any language
they wish, including Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

In Modern Standard Arabic, jihad is one of the correct terms for a struggle for any cause, violent or not, religious or secular (though كفاح kifāḥ is also used). For instance, Mahatma Gandhi's satyagraha struggle for Indian independence is called a "jihad" in Modern Standard Arabic (as well as many other dialects of Arabic); the terminology is also applied to the fight for women's liberation.

[idwiyo]

187. Thank you for the translation.

[Shankapotomus]

182. Excuse me

What about the insult to their entire gender by women who support and perpetuate, by their participation in, male dominated religious patriarchal hierarchies? Talk about an insult to women. What about that insult? That seems to be getting completely brushed over while Muslim women attack FEMEN. It's a choice to be a Muslim, you say? It's a choice for a woman to be in porn but that doesn't make it any less exploitative than to participate in any religion that reduces women to secondary citizens.

[Coyotl]

185. A Western libertarian insults a Muslim

Not a first!

[redqueen]

192. Just some more input from Muslim women for anyone interested.

http://www.michigandaily.com/opinion/04viewpoint-feminism12

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/11/femen-nudity-racist-colonial-feminism

[cali]

194. I didn't read the second article but my problem with the first

is that the author claims that it's a choice women have. For many Muslim women it is not a choice.

[JI7]

196. are you talking about the head covering ? it is a choice in TUnisia and europe

[cali]

197. No I'm not.

[Deep13]

203. There is a difference between insulting Muslims and insulting Islam.

Granted, the former may be insulted by the latter, but the criticism may still be valid.

I can respect, like, and love the Christians I know, but I still think it is barking mad to say that god made us evil, blamed us for it, but gave us an out through vicarious suffering. A lot of Christians will be insulted by that observation, but it does not change the fact that it is a valid observation and not one directed at any broad brush stereotypes of believers as somehow inferior.

So I think FEMEN did insult Islam, or some forms of it, and that their criticisms were valid. That criticism offended some overly sensitive Muslims, but was not really directed at them. It was directed at those who think masculine honor is tied to feminine modesty, giving men a right to control women for that purpose. And that is a very valid point.

[idwiyo]

204. In your post #75 you provide a link to an article you think is more clear. Why don't you add it to

the OP?

You admitted yourself other article is more clear.
Never mind that the quote from the first article misinterprets what Amina actually said.


Video in French:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2666057


Translation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2667864


Here is a link to another article you provided:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2664532

[stevenleser]

209. How is that working out for you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022761939

[kwassa]

212. Just fine. How is working out for you?

[stevenleser]

213. Great, because I turned out to be right! nt