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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat Actually Happened To That Same-Sex Couple In The Missouri Hospital
There has been a lot of speculation as to what actually transpired when Roger Gorley was arrested away from his husband Allens bedside in a Missouri hospital earlier this week. Despite the fact Roger and Allen have granted each other power of attorney for medical decisions, the Research Medical Center claimed that Roger was disruptive and belligerent, arguing that is why the police arrested him and removed him from the facility.
Now, Rogers daughter Amanda has shared a detailed account of what transpired that paints a picture even more offensive than many may have imagined. The full account can be read here as well as some additional details she shared in an interview with blogger John Aravosis. Here is a breakdown of the familys circumstances and what transpired in that hospital room according to Amanda:
The Couples Background
Allen suffers from severe depression and is currently undergoing electro-shock treatment (ECT) twice a month because his medications are no longer allowing him to function normally.
Allen has specifically excluded his family from having any say over his medical decisions because they have not been understanding of the impact of his depression.
Not only have Roger and Allen granted each other power of attorney, but they are known throughout the hospital as a proud gay couple because they are regularly there for Allens treatments.
Allens family has not been supportive of his relationship with Roger.
How Allen Was Admitted On Tuesday
Amanda was taking care of Allen while Roger was at work at Tuesday, but when they returned home from a few errands, Allens brother Lee and sister Pat were waiting at the door with paramedics and police.
Due to Allens sluggish state, the police determined he was a danger to himself and decided to take him to the hospital against his will. Rather than taking him to St. Lukes Hospital in Lees Summit, the local hospital where his regular doctors are, they took him to the Research Medical Center in Kansas City, which he only goes to for his ECT. They ignored Amandas attempts to explain Allens medical needs and procedures.
Amanda called her father, Roger, and urged him to get to Allens side immediately. When he arrived at the hospital, Lee was also there.
It really is worse than originally reported. Please read the entire thing, including the links inside the article. The conduct of that hospital was awful.
Lex
(34,108 posts)at that hospital. Or any hospital (but that is probably too much to hope for). Plus, it's stories like these that are causing more and more people to support gay marriage.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)to immediately verify POA's regardless of how they may feel about the couple or people involved. That should not matter one iota in the slightest. The ONLY thing that should matter is that there's a POA and that it expresses the wishes of the patient him or herself and NOT what hateful, bigoted hospital staff may wish the patient wanted. The fact that so many hospitals and clinics still routinely ignore POA's and living wills in favor of its own or the doctor's personal wishes or beliefs is beyond sickening in this day and age.
THIS is just one of so many reasons why marriage equality is critical to the rights of all. This is the kind of thing I point to (among many others, including the over one thousand federal benefits extended to married couples) when I am asked why I, as a married hetero woman, would care so much about the marriage rights of same-sex couples. First, I like to ask when they "chose" to become hetero. They look at me like I'm nuts and say that "of course, I didn't choose, I just am. I just know I am." Okay, then. So, why do you think those who are not hetero made a "choice"? If it's a "choice", then you'd have no problem making that choice yourself? Secondly, I ask how they'd feel if they were in the hospital and their spouse or partner was being kept from them because the family and hospital didn't consider it to be a "real" marriage or partnership and their rights legally superceded your wishes? Or, if it was the other way around and their partner/spouse was the one in the hospital? For many with a more open mind, it really brings it home.
Hospitals and doctors and staff MUST be legally required, in all instances, to verify, honor and follow POA's, with severe legal consequences if they do not. Period.
RKP5637
(67,030 posts)fredzachmane
(85 posts)& Hospitals and doctors and staff ARE legally required, in all instances, to verify, honor and follow POA's. Family members can not just demand that the hospital ignore the POA, it would defeat the whole purpose. Speaking only from my experience working in hospitals, their was something else at play here. If we have a patient with fighting family members it is standard & completely reasonable that we remove them and Lee was also made to leave which isn't mentioned. Roger was arrested for refusing to leave, not for being gay. Wearing gloves in the presence of blood or other bodily fluids (or the high potential to encounter them) is S.O.P. for police. Police & medical personel assume that EVERYONE has HIV, we are instructed to from the first days of training, its called the standards of using PPE. Being a homophobe has nothing to do with it, and I know few if any officers who want an item back once it has any persons blood on it (which happens frequently). Lee made statements to Roger that rightly angered Roger, but Lee had no power to enforce his threat. No where in this story is it reported that the hospital denied Roger anything, in fact the first mention of hospital intervention was after Lee & Roger began arguing and staff asked them to leave. If I were in the hospital and my wife and sister started belligerently fighting with each other they would be forced to leave. There is waaaay too much assumption and innuendo in the reporting of this story; such as taking the nurses statement I know who you two are. You need to leave. and then implying that she was refusing to acknowledge their legal relationship. So, this reporter knows the context, intent, thoughts, etc of this nurse? For one thing, having been in this sort of situation, I would more likely guess the "two" she was referring to was Roger & Lee, not Allen. But I would be guessing.. JUST LIKE THIS REPORTER was guessing (ie making shit up)!! There is too much desperation for turning this event into something that it wasn't in order to further social & political motivations that were not at play here.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)fredzachmane
(85 posts)Hospital spokeswoman Denise Charpentier said everyone in the hospital room was asked to leave because staff believed it was in the best interest of the patient. Charpentier said Gorley was removed because he was being disruptive and belligerent.
The hospitals response followed the same policies that would apply to any individual engaged in this behavior in a patient care setting and was not in any way related to the patients or the visitors sexual orientation or marital status, she said in an email Friday. This visitor created a barrier for us to care for the patient.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/gay-man-arrested-at-mo-hospital-after-argument-at-partners-bedside-claims-discrimination/2013/04/12/38045b7c-a3be-11e2-bd52-614156372695_story.html
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Or that he actually left the room at all. The article only mentions the husband being forcibly removed.
fredzachmane
(85 posts)The official release from the hospital (which was partially quoted in that story) does make it clear that both were made to leave & that the husbands subsequent arrest was due to his refusal to leave and increasing belligerence with the staff. By their own account, the patient and husband had been seen at this hospital many times without any issues. The brother is an ass, and the husbands actions seem to have been based entirely on what the brother was doing not the staff. There own account never claims the staff became involved until he & the brother began to fight. My concern is creating a "boy who cried wolf" situation. At the hospital where I work there was a similar incident, though the partner was not arrested. The ACLU became involved and then withdrew due to there being no evidence of discrimination, instead it became apparent that he had been made to leave for a cause which ANYONE would have been made to leave. If we hype these kinds of incidents and there turns out to be no case of discrimination, many people (especially people who aren't already passionate supporters) will turn a deaf ear in the future. It desensitizes people and not only makes them care less, but makes them more likely to ignore acts of true discrimination. False claims & half truths always hurt the cause which they are attached to...eventually.
fredzachmane
(85 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)was prevented from seeing their spouse after they had been taken to the hospital against their will, I would hope they would pitch a fit.
The brother was allowed to stay. The brother, who didn't have power of attorney. Gorley had every right to raise sand over this incident.
fredzachmane
(85 posts)the brother was made to leave also. The hospital and the police reports both state this
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)This is such a basic process for complying with the law. It's unfathomable that a hospital would not verify and post the HCPOA on the chart and make sure all staff know who the decision maker is.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Not longer a healthy Hospital.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)That douchefuck brother who made a false suicide claim so he could try to drive a wedge in this couple needs to go to fucking jail.
The Nurse Ratched who willingly played along should be fired, then tarred and feathered.
The hospital needs to pay this couple seven figures for what they did.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)want to bring back the laws making it much easier to commit someone for mental illness and why I always argue with them, and there are plenty of them even here on DU. This kind of thing happened much more frequently before the loosening of the laws and it ruined so many lives. A spouse or family member could make such a claim and the person would then be hospitalized, with little consideratino given to what they had to say or whether or not they were truly mentally ill or a danger, or to any lack of evidence, and all consideration and credence given to the person making the claim.
It was used way too often as a "weapon" against family members and spouses; a friend's mother who was a psychiatrist would tell me some real horror stories. She said for every genuine case there were five that weren't, that were manufactured. Some people thought it was a way to deal with "odd" adult children who didn't quite follow the script they were supposed to. The more the person protested, the less they were listened to. Some people ended up spending their lives needlessly institutionalized.
The people who want a return to the old laws have no idea just what they're truly asking for and it's disturbing to think that we could be headed back that way.
get the red out
(13,459 posts)It is way past time to get real about equality in this country and give everyone the same rights.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)This is horrible. Reading this kind of thing makes me feel tired and sad. Why mess with people this way.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)When there are multiple people coming in with someone they don't know who is who and which family members are excluded and included in the person's care. I actually thought this made more sense at St. Luke's in Lee's Summit, which would be much more conservative than Research Medical Center which is downtown and considerably more liberal, yet the staff at Research aren't too high functioning so I'm not surprised they were having difficulty figuring out the familial relationship here and were probably over-eager in calling the cops once people started becoming upset and confrontational.
FreeState
(10,552 posts)They go there for treatment per the article (they use both hospitals). Protocol is the person who has POA is supposed to make the decisions if the other is incapable (as seems to be the case, in fact his partner asked that he be able to stay so he wasnt 100% out of it). The hospital if following protocol would have kicked out his younger brother, who has no legal standing to make decisions for his brother, not his designated POA who does have the legal rights.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)and the guy doesn't relate any other stories of them being treated poorly by the hospital or the nurse.
I whole heartedly believe that same-sex couples should have all of the same rights as non-same-sex couples, but based on his admitted behavior and causing a disturbance, I think he is overstating their behavior here as well.
FreeState
(10,552 posts)per the daughter (who was there for the incident).
http://americablog.com/2013/04/interview-daughter-gay-man-handcuffed-husbands-hospital-bed.html
Amanda says that the nurse had her father removed because of the loud disagreement her father was having with his partners brother, Lee, who had arrived at the hospital room at the same time as her father.
Rather than intervene and inform the brother that Roger was in fact the designated representative of his gay partner, the nurse had Roger removed. This, in spite of Allen reportedly saying from his hospital bed that he wanted his husband to stay in the room with him.
Allen said he wanted dad in the room, Amanda told me. He said I want him here as the nurse was asking Roger to leave.
tblue37
(64,979 posts)the one causing the problem and interfering with the person who had the legal POA.
FreeState
(10,552 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)The partners bigoted family were the ones that told him to leave. The hospital should have sorted things out before siding with a family that had no medical authority over the patient.
Lex
(34,108 posts)and the patient ask for his husband to stay.
No one had to "figure out" which family members needed to be included or excluded.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)His husband was basically forced to go to the hospital then the person who had absolutely no legal right to make decisions banned the husband from the room, with the hospital going along with the brother's wishes. I would imagine, though the story doesn't clarify this point, that the husband informed the medical staff he held the POA, yet the nurse insisted he leave.
Should he have just quietly tucked his tail between his legs and slink away? Do you know how many times LGBTQ folks have to go through this bullshit?
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Right on. This situation is so upsetting. Ugh, the damn brother and sister....damn hateful busybodies.
Just makes me so damn ANGRY
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I know if my husband's brother kicked me out of his hospital room and told me he'd be making any medical decisions for my husband, I'd be upset and confrontational. Actually, "upset" and "confrontational" would be a vast understatement.
If the hospital workers had done what they should have done, which is to kick the brother out, he wouldn't have gotten upset or confrontational.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)for any reason. If I were in the same situation and couldn't keep my cool, I would expect the exact same treatment. Then I would go call my lawyer to get any medical decisions made. They are under no obligation to allow someone to stay just because they can make medical decisions for someone if they are causing a disturbance.
That's what isn't clear here...at what point did they ask him to leave? From what is posted here, it sounds like he and the brother were both let in, the husband wanted the brother to leave but they wouldn't remove him and the brother wouldn't go, so the husband got beligerent and started yelling and causing a scene, so they removed him.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It said the brother asked the husband to go, the husband refused, the brother called hopsital security who forced the husband to go, and the husband got upset and caused a scene. Which is understandable.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)wasn't there would know.
What does seem clear though is that there was no indication that the reason the husband was removed was because he and his husband are gay and that they were being discriminated against. Maybe he didn't have ID with him and couldn't prove who he was? All we can all do is speculate but on the surface it doesn't seem discriminatory, it seems like a typical family disagreement that happens with both same-sex couples and non-same-sex couples.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It does sound like a family disagreement, but it sounds like the hospital came down on the wrong side of it.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Are you reading the same article or are you just being purposely obtuse?
It doesn't seem like a typical family disagreement at all. An opposite-gender spouse's right to make medical decisions would never be questioned by hospital staff but it happens routinely for same-gender spouses, even if they have the proper legal paperwork.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)If there were no genders listed in the article of anyone and you read the article you would say, "Oh yeah, that person got all worked up and lost their cool and was causing a scene so I'm not surprised security removed them." Everyone here agrees on two things, because they are admitted by everyone in the story - 1. the couple was known at the hospital and had visited the hospital numerous times without any prior incident or even a hint of discrimination, and 2. the husband has admitted that he got worked up and caused a disturbance, which according to hospital policy would get ANYONE removed regardless of their right to make medical decisions for someone.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)And people who are mean to their own families suck hardest.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)TeamPooka
(24,155 posts)edit - and I predict the hospital will be writing a check to settle.
The local PD might have to also.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,919 posts)The hospital needs a formal review--not that will undo the damage it's caused.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)RKP5637
(67,030 posts)hospitals. I know, I have to endure this creepy place.
Rebl
(149 posts)It's in MO not Kansas. By the way I consider Research to be a conservative (catholic)hospital. I might add what's the matter with MO. They are trying to keep up with KS when it comes to being ultra conservative. Can barely stand living here anymore.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)pstokely
(10,510 posts)but the catholic hospitals don't really operate any differently
tblue37
(64,979 posts)his being gay is a major factor in his chronic problems with depression?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Lee, the asshole fundie brother, is now filing charges of "elder abuse" to try to nullify the power-of-attorney this couple's using to stay together.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)If an unmarried hetero couple encountered this same situation, would they be turned away from each other's hospital room even though they each had a POA for the other? I wonder if hospitals are pretty lax about honoring POAs in general for people who are not married.
susanr516
(1,425 posts)My husband has been hospitilized several times throughout our almost 30 year marriage. I've always just said, "I'm his wife." No one has ever asked me for any proof, not even to see an ID from me. Even when he underwent surgery, I don't recall anyone verifying that we were legally married. Just from my personal experience, I'd guess it would be much less likely that a hetero couple would be asked for any proof of a legal marriage.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)My parents are divorced, but in the late 90's my father had a near-fatal aortic dissection. My brother was contacted by my dad's secretary who had called 911, but he was too far away to come so he called my mom who was in the same city. My mom rushed to the hospital and got in telling the staff she was his wife with no questions asked.
These "regulations" only seem to get severely held to when it is a same-sex couple trying to care for each other.
RKP5637
(67,030 posts)VA_Jill
(9,852 posts)...from the very beginning. Starting when the police refused to listen to Amanda and took him to the wrong hospital and not the one where his doctors are. The hospital he was taken to systematically violated his and Roger's rights starting with refusing to recognize Roger's medical power of attorney for Allen. Once that was determined, the *brother* should have been requested to leave and possibly the father also (though the father does not seem to have been a problem). The police used undue force on Roger and arrested him without determining any sort of legal status of Roger and Allen's relationship or who had power of attorney. Lee is the one who should have been arrested as he was the one who showed up with the *intent* of making trouble, and did so. The nurse also is at fault for not determining the legal status and who had power of attorney. That one I know, because I am a nurse and when you admit a patient you are REQUIRED to ask about any advance directives and to communicate that to other staff. I hope there are several lawsuits filed here!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Allen should be transferred out of that hospital pronto, they have already IMO shown that they do not have the patients best interests at heart and are there for not capable of providing adequate or proper treatment
Pmc1962
(42 posts)If anyone, regardless of the relationship, is disruptive and is interfering with the medical staff's ability to assess and treat the patient, they are asked to leave. End of conversation. Straight or gay, black or white, parent or spouse, it doesn't matter. Nobody is allowed to be disruptive.
If family members are fighting at the patient's bedside, they are all asked to leave.
If the doctor can't assess the patient, everyone is asked to leave.
If there is an accusation of abuse or there is trouble sorting out who should be there, everyone is asked to leave. How can the patient speak freely otherwise? (think of a straight couple--would the spouse accused of negligence be allowed to stay at the bedside during the interview?)
In addition, the power of attorney only kicks in when the patient is not able to speak for himself or herself. If the patient can speak, the DPOA is a only a piece of paper and the patient speaks for himself. It doesn't matter who is listed as long as the patient can speak for himself.
This story is very one sided.
Behind the Aegis
(53,823 posts)Both of the "disruptive" persons were NOT removed. Only the GAY one was removed, forcibly.
The patient asked for his husband to stay! He asked for his brother to be removed!
POA does not "only kick in" when the patient can't speak for him/herself. The other issue was the patient was 'in and out' and therefore, even if your assertion was correct, then the husband needed to be there as he had POA.
There was NO accusation of abuse. Everyone was NOT asked to leave.
One sided indeed.
"Welcome."
happyslug
(14,779 posts)And it seems every one did EXCEPT the person arrested. If that is the case, the hospital was justified in their action. Under the law, if you are told to leave a situation by a Police Officer and you do not,you can be arrested. If the person arrested was the only one who did not leave when told, that would explain why he was arrested.
Side note: As a general rule, Power of attorneys do NOT survive the death OR INCAPACITY of the person granting the Power of Attorney, In most states, this has been modified by the adoption of a "Durable Power of Attorney" that does survive incapacity. Some state have gone even further declaring all Power of Attorneys, Durable Power of Attorneys. I do NOT know the status of Power of Attorneys in the state involved and that is an important factor in this type of case. The reason is simple, the incapacity of the patient, and the law of State the hospital is in are factors that have to be considered when deciding if the Power of Attorney is valid in this case. We have NOTHING on any of this, and thus most people are talking about situations that may or may not exists.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Because he was asked to leave the hospital bedside of his spouse! Of course he was upset!
OK, so it's wrong to hit someone. So if i punch you in the face and you hit me back, you hit me and are wrong. And of course I was physical with you because you were hitting. Makes no sense, right? But that's your complaint here. He was told to leave because he was disruptive. He didn't get disruptive until people tried to get him to leave, and he was upset for a good reason.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)The person causing all the trouble was allowed to stay.
Lex
(34,108 posts)bedside.
Nothing wrong with that. If a straight spouse, a husband, was being forced to leave his wife's bedside for no good reason but an obnoxious brother-in-law, you bet that husband would NOT be happy and might cause a scene. In fact, it would be expected.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)would you just walk out nice and calm? When you spouse wanted you there? Being told to leave for no reason except that it was the wish of someone who has no right to be there in the first place? by someone who forced this entire situation against the wishes of your spouse?
Somehow I doubt it.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)But instead, they have their lawyers and PR flacks spewing lies to cover their asses.
I hope Gorley sues them out of existence and makes an example of them.
stlsaxman
(9,236 posts)"when they returned home from a few errands, Allens brother Lee and sister Pat were waiting at the door with paramedics and police"
William769
(55,124 posts)Overseas
(12,121 posts)Family and hospital people at fault. Yet they pretend they did not intend to discriminate. Digusting.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)At one point, Dyer said security footage shows a nurse backing out of the room and Gorley was swearing at her, pointing his finger close to her face.
A request for that video must be made through HCAs legal department and was not yet available.
He [Gorley] and the patients brother were fighting in the patients room very loudly, very crassly, inappropriate language, Dyer said.
While HCA continues to investigate the incident, Dyer said Gorleys accusations are particularly upsetting given the hospitals record.
We were one of the first to have same sex benefits in the market. We were one of the first to acknowledge same sex partnerships.
It wasn't a case of preferring the brother to the husband with the POA - it was a case of inappropriate behavior. If the video really shows Gorley swearing at a nurse, the hospital had some cause.
I assume all of the evidence will come out in court. Anyone who becomes disruptive in a hospital can be removed. It happens to heterosexual couples too. Just because you have a legal right to make medical decisions for the incapacitated person doesn't mean you have the right to abuse the staff.
I sympathize with Gorley, because basically he finds out his husband has been abducted to the hospital, and then he goes there to see him and has to deal with the idiot who made it happen. So losing his temper is more than understandable!
Also, this is just what the hospital is claiming, and they may be trying to cover their butts. The mention of the video makes it seem like they have some grounds.
The Advocate has a long article that runs through the differing versions. Apparently Gorley has visited his husband at the hospital and there never was a restraining order:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/2013/04/12/hospital-daughter-gay-man-arrested-missouri-dispute-what-really-happened
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)say 'get him out of here', and it's over. My wife could throw my own mother out of a visiting area if she so desired. Not a soul would question it.
This 'confrontation' wouldn't have occurred if they had equal protection under the law.
moobu2
(4,822 posts)The brother would have been removed since he was the instigator and that would have ended the problem.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)No surprise that he was taken there by the paramedics.
That of course doesn't justify what happened once he got there but it does perhaps explain why he was taken there.