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Pale Blue Dot

(16,831 posts)
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 07:15 PM Apr 2013

It's immoral no matter how you look at it.

If the President really thinks that chained CPI is some kind of answer, it's an immoral position. In fact, I haven't seen a single person on this website, even the "centrists", argue that it's a good idea or justifiable in any way except one.

What I have seen people say, over and over again, is that we need to trust the President. That it's strategy. He's got this.

But you know what? Even if the centrists are correct and this is a long term plan to make the Republicans look foolish, even if this is a game of "3D chess" that the President is going to win (debatable) , it's still immoral. Why? Because the poor and the elderly are the ones being used as the pawns. It's despicable.

I'm not saying I'm going to vote third party. I won't even say I've completely lost faith. But I will say I had an image of the President as a man with a moral compass, even if I didn't always agree with him. That's gone now. For good.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It's immoral no matter how you look at it. (Original Post) Pale Blue Dot Apr 2013 OP
And most DUers gave him a pass when he LOWERED taxes 3 months ago. robinlynne Apr 2013 #1
Sure is, you nailed it. We're all seen as pawns to the elite. just1voice Apr 2013 #2
Nobel Peace Prize, Predator Drones, Chained CPI Demeter Apr 2013 #3
Actually Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #4
They get a better COLA now. Others losing one does not mean the poorest will be 'lifted'. Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #5
Google is your friend Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #9
Try doing a bit more research HarmonyRockets Apr 2013 #27
Google is your friend. Here's the take from Boston College. mbperrin Apr 2013 #12
Okay Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #13
Cat food is $8 a pound. (A dollar for a 2 ounce can) mbperrin Apr 2013 #14
Oh, and of course, there is NO "average" person. mbperrin Apr 2013 #15
... Skittles Apr 2013 #17
Thank you for this post. nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #24
I might have trusted him if there wasn't that little problem of Cleita Apr 2013 #6
Meanwhile the two people that actually wrote a major portion of the ACA truedelphi Apr 2013 #28
I could not agree with you more! CaliforniaPeggy Apr 2013 #7
I lost faith a long time ago. Obama has shown repeatedly he can't be trusted. forestpath Apr 2013 #8
if he has a moral compass it is broken carolinayellowdog Apr 2013 #10
they wouldn't be "centrists" if they could face up to the problem of whether the chaining is good MisterP Apr 2013 #11
K&R woo me with science Apr 2013 #16
K&R. Thank you. myrna minx Apr 2013 #18
kick woo me with science Apr 2013 #19
I'm sorry to say that you are right. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #20
I'm not so sure Mr Obama.. 99Forever Apr 2013 #21
The truth of corporate morality. woo me with science Apr 2013 #23
But if too many of us wake up - watch the PTB pull another truedelphi Apr 2013 #29
du rec. nt xchrom Apr 2013 #22
Kick and Rec! Fuddnik Apr 2013 #25
You just made me cry, Pale. Simple truths. Thank you. nt Mnemosyne Apr 2013 #26
"Because the poor and the elderly are the ones being used as the pawns. It's despicable." Triana Apr 2013 #30
Mr. President Unchain That CPI Blue Owl Apr 2013 #31

robinlynne

(15,481 posts)
1. And most DUers gave him a pass when he LOWERED taxes 3 months ago.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 07:30 PM
Apr 2013

in 3 months he has lowered taxes on people earning 400,000 and corporations and dvidends. (The Bush tax cuts EXPIRED. Obama put them back in place twice already.) So we (the Dems) simultaneously lowert taxes on the rich while raising cost of living for the poor and cutting social safety nets.
who needs republicans?

 

just1voice

(1,362 posts)
2. Sure is, you nailed it. We're all seen as pawns to the elite.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 07:36 PM
Apr 2013

We are seen as nothing but numbers and as Rahm said, "F-ing retards". It's a severe problem for the people at the top, the elite, they sincerely believe they are better than the people and sincerely believe their own propaganda.

 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
4. Actually
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:13 PM
Apr 2013

The poorest of the poor will be lifted above the poverty line. Those are the poorest elderly and the ones who are "hurting" at this moment being below the poverty line. They eat cat food right "now". What about them? What about morals now?

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
5. They get a better COLA now. Others losing one does not mean the poorest will be 'lifted'.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:37 PM
Apr 2013

Why don't you explain in detail and with links what it is you are attempting to pawn off here?

 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
9. Google is your friend
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:47 PM
Apr 2013

"They get a better COLA now". That is your comeback?

Tell me what COLA would do for someone below the poverty line, compared to being actually lifted above THE poverty line?

mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
12. Google is your friend. Here's the take from Boston College.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 10:09 PM
Apr 2013
http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/96498

Their analysis is that it cannot be viewed as anything other than a cut in benefits, and especially for the oldest and the poorest.

All a chained CPI does is say that people will buy cheaper and cheaper stuff as they get poorer and poorer, so instead of giving them money to buy the old stuff, we'll just give them enough to buy the cheaper and cheaper stuff.

Two problems: poorest don't have the ability to shift as readily: no transportation out of their immediate area to find these bargains, and no Internet access to order it online. Same for the oldest of the old - lack of mobility due to age, and again, lack of Internet access.

So no, the poor will not be lifted above the poverty line - the line will be moved so that they no longer are "officially" poor. This is what happened when we changed the definition of unemployed and cut the unemployment rate in half - magically. Trouble is, "discouraged" workers still don't have a job or money (their benefits have run out).

It's like changing the F on your report card to a B - hey, ma! Look! Happy for a moment, but the transcript still has the F, and you ain't going to college. How happy will ma be then?


I'm 61, and I wish people would just be honest about people my age and older - they hate us and would like to take us the gas chamber, but that conjures up negative images, so they will simply starve us in our houses and prevent us from getting decent medical care - same result.


Chained CPI is smoke and mirrors. Smoke gets in your eyes. When it gets in your lungs, it kills you.

Oh, and YES, I do hold a degree in economics. Thanks for asking!
 

Life Long Dem

(8,582 posts)
13. Okay
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 10:41 PM
Apr 2013

I understand that it would take your savings from going cheaper over a higher priced product. That's where the loss over years accumulate. But we are talking about the poorest elderly living below the poverty line and being "lifted above" the poverty line.

"So no, the poor will not be lifted above the poverty line - the line will be moved so that they no longer are "officially" poor. "

Move the line. But be fair ok. Because right now their are elderly living below today's poverty line eating cat food.

"Determining the poverty line is usually done by finding the total cost of all the essential resources that an average human adult consumes in one year.

The largest of these expenses is typically the rent required to live in an apartment, so historically, economists have paid particular attention to the real estate market and housing prices as a strong poverty line affector. Individual factors are often used to account for various circumstances, such as whether one is a parent, elderly, a child, married, etc. The poverty threshold may be adjusted annually."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_poverty_line

mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
14. Cat food is $8 a pound. (A dollar for a 2 ounce can)
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 11:19 PM
Apr 2013

What they are really eating in our part of the country is beans and bread.

I own a small apartment complex where nearly all our tenants are 75+ years old. All worked their entire lives, and several are still working, because they draw a whole $947 a month from Social Security. After they pay our rent, which includes their electric and water bills, they have less than $350 to buy food, pay their medications, new socks if they need them for the whole month.

Forget owning a vehicle - no way with insurance and gasoline, even if paid for.

Most others live with their family, because most other rents are insanely high - 1 bedroom apartments are routinely $800+ with no utilities, with a requirement for first month, last month, and deposit to move in.

Just ordinary modest working people. Now why would anyone want to punish them for simply working their entire lives and doing the best they could?

Because you know, and I know, that Social Security has NO impact whatsoever on the deficit or debt, period. So these cuts, and that's what they are, are just for meanness. They are to mollycoddle a group of mean old bastards who hate and hate and yet somehow remain in office (Satan keeps his promises, apparently, although they always forget to ask for not being as ugly outside as they are on the inside.)

Mean people suck.

If the chained CPI actually goes into effect, I will act accordingly.

mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
15. Oh, and of course, there is NO "average" person.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 11:27 PM
Apr 2013

Compare a 61 year old near-retiree (me) with perfect cholesterol, 120/80 blood pressure, great sodium and all other counts, resting heart rate 54, never been in a hospital in my life except to be born, have my tonsils, appendix, and all the rest, except for a few teeth.

Now take one of my high school classmates - champion swimmer then, now confined to a wheelchair after having amputation from the shoulder down to control a horrible cancer and a stroke post-operation which left her paralyzed on her right side (yes, the one that was not removed).

No speech, no control over elimination at all, no ability to write, 24 hour care by paid attendants, because her husband died last year, and their only child died at 16 in a car wreck without issue. Now give us both the "average" amount required.

OR

48 people in a room who make zero dollars a year, the poorest of the poor. Bill Gates walks in, now we are all billionaires on average. Truth is, there's just one rich guy in the room, the rest still have nothing.

"Average" is one of the mean statistics.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
6. I might have trusted him if there wasn't that little problem of
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:42 PM
Apr 2013

the public option during the health care debate. Something he and Nancy and many others in Congress promised was part of the deal and poof it was suddenly wiped off the table as all those same politicians then tried to convince us that there were so many other good things we didn't need the public option. Yes, we do need it. We need a choice. In this debate, we have a trust agreement from years ago about our Social Security. It's not to be changed to make a deal about a budget that has nothing to do with Social Security. I call foul.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
28. Meanwhile the two people that actually wrote a major portion of the ACA
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 04:44 PM
Apr 2013

Have been promoted.

Rahm Emanuel and the woman who helped him contrive the legal language are off to "Bigger and better things." He is now mayor of Chicago, and Liz Fowler is now a top executive at Wellpoint.

 

forestpath

(3,102 posts)
8. I lost faith a long time ago. Obama has shown repeatedly he can't be trusted.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:46 PM
Apr 2013

And hurting the poor and elderly - well, it doesn't get much more immoral than that.

carolinayellowdog

(3,247 posts)
10. if he has a moral compass it is broken
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 08:50 PM
Apr 2013

Both times I voted for him, it was with a sense of resignation that he might not do much to help seniors and the poor, but he'd do more than any Republican. Never imagined that he would actively crusade to harm seniors and the poor, and that the media pundits would unanimously applaud him for it while jeering and laughing at the least among us.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
11. they wouldn't be "centrists" if they could face up to the problem of whether the chaining is good
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 09:58 PM
Apr 2013

February '13: it's not happening, you fucking commies
April '13: you did this, you fucking commies

it reminds me of 80s Honduran far right trying to whip the people into a frenzy because 1) Libya was about to invade Honduras and 2) Reagan was a commie plant

no catracho was fooled by this

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
21. I'm not so sure Mr Obama..
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:22 AM
Apr 2013

... ever had a moral compass. What he has done, repeatedly since in office, says he doesn't. I wish it weren't so, I had so much hope that he would be as advertised, that illusion has been destroyed.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
23. The truth of corporate morality.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:55 AM
Apr 2013

This country is in the middle of a wrenching awakening.

It's like waking up to a nightmare, isn't it? That day when the realization dawns, and you see what is really being done to us by those who pretend to work on our behalf. It's hard to accept that we have lived in a sea of corporate propaganda from birth, and that the government we were always told represents us and has our best interests at heart is actually exploiting us in a terrible way. And the party we always thought worked for us is, in reality, aggressively complicit in the betrayal.

We all live in the corporate Matrix, and waking up from it is painful as hell.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
29. But if too many of us wake up - watch the PTB pull another
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 04:47 PM
Apr 2013

"Wag the dog" incident out from under their buttholes.

No Korea, Iran, it doesn't even take a lot of imagination on their parts.

 

Triana

(22,666 posts)
30. "Because the poor and the elderly are the ones being used as the pawns. It's despicable."
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 05:55 PM
Apr 2013

I agree. Even if the hideous thing never got implemented, it's abusive to use people's lives and their savings and futures as pawns in some political game.

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