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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan I ask a question without getting slammed?
I have been reading George Orwell's Diaries - it's very interesting by the way - and he was living rough and writing about it. He lived with the hop pickers and also with the homeless. He made a statement that most of the tramps (this was around London and other places in England about 1930 something) had one sort of sexual perversion or another.
Being female I really don't understand much about the male sex drive. It is so different than it is for me. But do lots of men have to try and control just plain old sexual perversions of one type or another? Or is it really just some who maybe have extra strong hormone drives?
I just keep wondering what I am missing here. All this stuff right now about these horrible gang rapes where the women are terribly injured or killed - like in India now. And even here in the US. And polls showing that high numbers of men would have comitted rape if they could have gotten away with it.
I don't understand the rage and the violence and why this rage and violence seems to be sexual.
Help!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)masculinity.
sexual drive is in both gender. and society conditions and creates two very different worlds for both of us to live.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)You almost never hear about women comitting sexual crimes. Once in a while you do but it's often when they are coupled up with some violent man.
I don't think I ever really look at men simply from a sexual standpoint. I might see a man that I think is sexy but I would never think about violently raping him, physically hurting him or killing him.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and you see it is not about sex drive. we continually hear women that are more sexually driven than their male partner. but we as a society do not acknowledge that alone.
i do not know your sex drive. i do mine. i am not selling mine short so men can be all that, and mine amounts to nothing.
you really want to understand, you have to see how as a society we have created this mess. and how men use it to hold women in their place.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)I might add that many women use it to hold others, whose sexuality makes them feel threatened, in place. I don't think is just a gender war... I think it is a war between those who are sexually inhibited and those who are not. That the opposing sides appear to be gender driven, is partially to blame for the antagonism that has gone on for decades. I find the Phyllis Schaflys of the world far more offensive and dangerous than any man who might feel threatened and resort to violence or verbal abuse as control. I think the fools we see voting to curtail our sexual freedom are being driven by the "little woman' at home.
Just a thought.
derby378
(30,252 posts)...was that I once had a girlfriend a long time ago who liked to pull my hair while we were making out. Not too hard, just hard enough. It was strangely arousing.
But other than that, cases of women committing rape are comparatively rare.
cali
(114,904 posts)that doesn't mean I've ever connected it in any way with violence of any kind. You seem to conflate the two.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)they are about power and control. Dominance, humiliation, instilling fear.
Sex may be the means but is not generally considered the end for rapists/molesters.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)The idea that violence is a valuable trait is a holdover from primitive ancestors and needs to die.
As for a comparable sex drive, though, check this out. Once again it is the conditioning, this time into the cult of femininity, wherein girls and women are indoctrinated to think that having a high sex drive makes them dirty and bad. This also keeps many women from experiencing fulfilling sex lives.
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)do they just turn to other sorts of violence when they can't use sex?
randome
(34,845 posts)pnwmom
(108,925 posts)so sharply cutting back testosterone should reduce violent crimes in general.
Not to say that there aren't ethical concerns about the use of chemical castration -- Amnesty International opposes it, for example.
http://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c74?ijkey=rcCG6E9p6AKqY&keytype=ref&siteid=bmjjournals
Studies of the use of antiandrogenic drugs report similar efficacy,5 6 7 and a large meta-analysis of treatment in sex offenders found that organic interventions (surgical castration and hormones) reduce recidivism much more than any other treatment approach (although the authors found that nowadays drugs are usually used alongside psychological treatment).8 Double blind placebo controlled studies of antiandrogens are virtually absent because of the practical difficulties of carrying them out (among other things, it is not easy to convince an ethics committee of the wisdom of giving placebo to dangerous offenders), but the evidence supports the efficacy of these treatments.
ismnotwasm
(41,921 posts)There was a study involving long term violent prisoners; they to be a lot less violent as they age. So the study looked for, and found a correlation. I'd have to look for it the study though this was a few years back.
randome
(34,845 posts)Power, yes, but sex drive and poor upbringing and perhaps even genetics probably all combine to some extent or another.
Plenty of people crave power but they don't all rape.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the act of rape is about power adn control and sex is what is used.
there is always jacking off if it is only about sex.
randome
(34,845 posts)We're too horribly complicated organisms for one influence to drive us toward aberrant behavior.
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)For a lot of people sex and power are one and the same. Establishing dominance over someone is a turn-on. Being sexually excited by someone makes them want to control and possess.
Blanket statements like that seem inaccurate and overly general.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Our society sets men who feel powerless in their lives to act out sexually in order to regain feelings of power. Some men will act out in passive-aggressive ways, but the majority will in straight aggression, against each other (fighting) or against women sexually.
Women who feel powerless regain feelings of power in other ways. More often in passive-aggressive ways, but again this is due to society as a whole, not biology. Again, some women will act out in straight aggression, but the majority are conditioned to act out passive-aggressively.
Ultimately, both are substituting personal power with overpowering another.
Neither is healthy. (Except in the workplace when passive-aggression against asshole bosses is sometimes the only way to survive and can be quite amusing to boot.)
markiv
(1,489 posts)is that how they are?
and Orwell said that's how most of the tramps were. Did he say that's how he was also - or the group he grew up with?
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)I thought I did when I was younger. My father certainly wasn't a violent man but he liked porno. My brother isn't violent.
But I certainly have run into sexually violent men. Probably most women have.
markiv
(1,489 posts)from what you read, rather than what you experience personally, in my close read of what you say
and there will always be things one gender doesnt get about the other gender, for instance, i dont get why women need so many shoes
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)But I have run up against male violence myself in my life - not so much now that I am not sexually atrractive to men any more. But when I was younger and out socializing and stuff I found myself in some really dicy situations. And completely confounded because I had not seen any clues.
This was many year's ago but I was raped by a man I met who seemed perfectly nice. He was funny and friendly. I just somehow missed the clues.
There were other times but I realized something was just plain wrong about the situation and got myself out of it as quickly as I could.
markiv
(1,489 posts)it was from your experience, and I am sorry to hear that - i didnt mean try pry, (but I sort of did inadvertently in my questioning)
most guys would NEVER do that, and would put away a guy who did, if serving on a jury
i am sorry this happened to you
cali
(114,904 posts)and what do you consider "plain old sexual perversions"?
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)that lived rough and was a tramp. He said he was a really nice man. But he was sitting on the walk with a newspaper covering his lap and was exposing himself to women who walked by. He was kind of surprised but not really because he said that most tramps suffer some sort of sexual perversion.
treestar
(82,383 posts)In my experience, most men are not that violently sexual. Most claims made on their behalf seem false. But those few who do things like this - protecting us from them is an excuse for them to have power. So they make like that is the "real" man in everyman.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)repressing a perversion.
But I think that the world is going to a place were life is cheap and caring is a thing of the past. The austerity and the willingness of the wealthy elite to take us back to pre-depression times pits all of us against each other. The pie is shrinking so you need to dehumanized the next person so that what you use to see as an atrocity does not bother you now. We are in de-evolution.
This reminds me of life in Vietnam when I was there during the war. I always say war is man at his most evil. I think the whole world is heading in that direction.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)I just can't remember a time when people were so divided. And feelings seem to run so deep.
I'm so not violent that I find it hard to understand how you can "hate" someone or act violently toward them simply because you have differing opinions.
But these violent gang rapes really have me concerned. So much rage aimed at complete strangers. So much rage aimed at women who just happen to be walking down the street.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)and rape isn't sex.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)I don't have any answers. I'm just trying to figure this out for myself. This awful violence against women scares me. We had a couple of cases here where young men raped old women - almost killed them.
Yet when I try to tell young women to be careful that there are predators out there whether you like it or not and you need to be aware and keep yourself safe they just shake their heads or laugh.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Is it your understanding that sexual violence you describe above is on the rise or decline?
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)But that may be because it's reported more often now instead of being hidden in the closet.
Every day there are articles about men being arrested for child porn. There was a big article in the paper this morning - guy got years in prison.
When I was growing up sexual perversion was not talked about. Neither was child abuse for that matter. Wasn't any of our business and we for sure didn't call any authorities.
People are a lot more likely to call the police now for both and that's a good thing, I think.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You seem to understand that it's more likely to be reported now than in the past, but in spite of that, violent and sexual crimes are on the decline (along with every other type of crime). So that seems like a double positive to me.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)massive generation alive today,the so called baby boomers, are aging. Crime statistics have pretty much risen and receded according to the age of baby boomers.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)That would seem to discount it solely being the aging of boomers which is causing the decline.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)aging. The crime rate has gone down in every country that had a baby boom after WW2. The overall population is getting younger because the size of every generation after baby boomers has been smaller,so it would make sense that older generation baby boomers will not be replaced at a rate that would keep seniors at a high level of the population. It certainly is the main reason for the decline in crime although their are other smaller factors,the age of the population is the biggest factor.
G_j
(40,366 posts)I don't think it's in the DNA or hormones, I think it's upbringing/cultural. Rape is about dominance/power-over more than anything.
But I just can't understand why someone cannot listen to their. "better angels"
and treat others with respect and kindness, instead of hurting them.
randome
(34,845 posts)I think DNA, upbringing, dominance all play their parts.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)If a boy grows up in violence, being abused, or seeing others abused, some may learn and emulate that violence later in life.
randome
(34,845 posts)Of course, some people are 'lucky' to learn from past abuse and not repeat it.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)seabeyond has part of it certainly, but we have to remember that each and everyone of us is different, that is part too. We need to remember that this has gone on for pretty much all time as well. What The Orwell Diaries reported is an observation and perhaps in some cases an opinion, not having read them I don't know. Is there more rage today than in the past? Hard to say, it might appear to be, but also remember that there are more people on this planet than at any other time in history. Does the media report more on these crimes, perhaps, but there are many more channels for these crimes to be reported than at any time in history.
These crimes are terrible without any doubt, but there are many factors at play and I have not even begun to list them.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)That was the only one he mentioned specifically.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Any questions?
Edit: I will add this, my wife and I got along much better when we managed to discuss this issue honestly, now she gets what she wants and I get what I want, and neither feels guilty about it.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)Or dogs.
You could really hurt yourself with a bike. But at least you couldn't hurt the victim.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Maybe not a bike ...
The thing is, if I don't get sex with some regularity, it becomes like hunger, it's very distracting, it does make you crazy. And we live in a culture that is just awash in sexual provocation. Self-abuse helps, but it's not near as good as a friendly woman.
And I think that that hunger, if you will, is what is often stronger in men, what needs to be examined and understood and negotiated.
And then the social norms we learn in "youth" have to be dealt with too, the ego involvement, status markers for how many you screw, ae they good looking enough, do they have big tits, etc., having something to prove through sexual activity and relationships.
The first thing of all you have to do is admit that the way you are is the way you are supposed to be, the problem is how to manage it and get on with life, which IS about much more than sex.
octothorpe
(962 posts)Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)lies on the Y chromosome. Some men with 2 of them have real trouble with rage, violence, etc.
I would be looking on that chromosome.
I mean, aside from any social/cultural perspective.
dawg
(10,610 posts)I thought men had XY and women had XX.
There is considerable debate about what effect this karyotype has.
kudzu22
(1,273 posts)is because they might get caught. They have no sense of right & wrong. When you strip away the veneer of civilization, we're all just animals by nature. Some people are just a little too close to the animal side.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)Humans aren't like any other animal on earth. We can be really good and caring or we can be unbelievably awful.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)But they do do things such as rape other animals, if you were suggesting they do not.
kudzu22
(1,273 posts)I've seem them do some pretty awful things, but that's their nature.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)I work with animals all day long. They do things that seem really cruel to us but they don't do it to be cruel. They don't know any better. There is no right and wrong in the animal world. And it bothers me a lot some times.
I hate lions. They are beautiful and great predators but they are also awful. Like most top predators.
But in the long term most animal behavior works to protect the species in the long run even if the short term seems terrible. Male lions that rise to the top of the pride kill all the cubs that aren't theirs. I just hate that. But it serves an important purpose. It brings the females into estress right away. And it ends the DNA of the old male who was defeated so that new, stronger DNA can prevail. But I still hate it.
kudzu22
(1,273 posts)And the behavior of animals is often what we would consider atrocious among humans. That was sort of my point. But I also get your meaning that animals aren't cruel for cruelty's sake. That's the exclusive domain of humanity.
JVS
(61,935 posts)of the role of Husband/Father/Provider. At best they were suspected of being whoremongers or seducers of the proverbial farmer's dauther, at worst molesters and male prostitutes.
It also didn't help that the old way of dealing with sex offenders was to run them out of town on a rail. Although one could argue that we have people trying to achieve that same end today by making laws that sex offenders not be able to live within a certain distance of schools and parks and then making small parks in many locations to force them away. Such actions guaranteed that certain portion of the itinerant population were indeed molesters.
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)So I would not use his opinions as the premise for any kind of scientific discussion of the topic.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)He probably did know something about it.
He seemed to be a very kind man who was very concerned with the lot of the homeless and the itinerant workers.
The other thing that was interesting about what he wrote in his diaries was that even though it was 80 years ago the problems were very much the same as they are today. No place decent to live, hard to find any kind of decent food, lack of health care.
Things haven't changed much.
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)consider as such today. For example, being gay.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)in the present society but I think modern hypersexuality is weird. Except for humans and a few other species, for most animals sex is a seasonal activity. I think heirarchy and a unnatural emphasis on status influences most peoples'obsession with sexual conquest. I think if you realize it is more a need of the mind and ego you can learn to detach from the whole crazy hyper obsession with it. We don't need it or even want it as much as the culture is trying to tell us we do. It just ends up as another way to contol you, as seen in every beer commercial that uses it.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)It sure complicates things for a lot of people.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)in the equation of a relationship to think about. And then put a heightened importance on it?...watch out. People will start to behave very callous and shallow toward each other and then blame it on "instinct" or "biological drives."
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)is exactly what it is in this Idiocracy.
I get so bored with sex everywhere you look.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,816 posts)I am so tired of seeing boobs everywhere you look. Right now it's boobs and butts.
I don't go to movies with explicit sex any more. I really enjoy movies with just really good plots without all the sex and violence. It has just gotten so boring.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)I also agree that it is a significant contributing factor to the Idiocracy we find ourselves increasingly saddled with.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)of where some women are culturally as opposed to a lot of men, that it is three DU women who express being on board with this view while some of my fellow men might still be unconsciously reluctant to shed the old ways. It's the difference between enjoying another person as a presence rather than as an object. Feminism is really tackling not only current misogyny and patriarchy but, underneath that, a lot of the bullying traits that have been handed down to our species (in males and females) over generations by evolution, as well.
ismnotwasm
(41,921 posts)Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)But to actually get to the question of your OP, I would say it's part culturally driven but also that culture has been reinforced by group selection. Before egalitarianism kicked in amongst our species, it was most probably the bigger, aggressive males that mated, thus perpetuating, through reproduction, the genes for more aggressive males while the more cooperative, competitively neutral males died out. Egalitarianism has now kind of balanced the scales to some degree but the struggle between hierarchical and egalitarian mating patterns continues to this day. The behavior of rape is that evolutionary outdated hierarchical social politics raising its ugly head. It's repressed somewhat by official laws and most of our current social belief systems but, sadly, the tendency in some males is still there, lying dormant, ready to express itself when an immature male feels they are entitled to something they are not getting.
Now you can argue things like food, water and shelter are immediate necessities and where one is being denied them a certain use of pressure or force to obtain them may be warranted. In fact, that is supposedly how egalitarianism within the group arose; to put pressure on alpha male hunters to share food with the rest of the group. Eventually, a more equitable, less violent way was worked out to distribute nutrition amongst the group, at least among successful hunter-gather groups. Today, with globalism and one-worldism, this inequity as a problem has returned to our awareness.
Mating today shares many of the problems and, to a degree, solutions (instead of taking resources, most of us bargain or ask) found for the peaceful distribution of food. But, as we are still not entirely there with food, we are still not entirely there with managing our sex drives peacefully as a species either. We need to keep the pressure on our own hierarchical and competitive behavior patterns.