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backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 06:33 PM Apr 2013

Why Would Anyone Celebrate the Death of Margaret Thatcher? Ask a Chilean

Why Would Anyone Celebrate the Death of Margaret Thatcher? Ask a Chilean
Dave Zirin on April 9, 2013 - 1:17 PM ET

Never have I witnessed a gap between the mainstream media and the public quite like the last twenty-four hours since the death of Margaret Thatcher. While both the press and President Obama were uttering tearful remembrances, thousands took to the streets of the UK and beyond to celebrate. Immediately this drew strong condemnation of what were called "death parties," described as “tasteless”, “horrible” and “beneath all human decency.” Yet if the same media praising Thatcher and appalled by the popular response would bother to ask one of the people celebrating, they might get a story that doesn't fit into their narrative, which is probably why they aren't asking at all.

I received a note this morning from a friend of a friend. She lives in the UK, although her family didn't arrive there by choice. They had to flee Chile, like thousands of others, when it was under the thumb of General Augusto Pinochet. If you don't know the details about Pinochet's blood-soaked two-decade reign, you should read about them but take care not to eat beforehand. He was a merciless overseer of torture, rapes and thousands of political executions. He had the hands and wrists of the country's greatest folk singer Victor Jara broken in front of a crowd of prisoners before killing him. He had democratically elected Socialist President Salvador Allende shot dead at his desk. His specialty was torturing people in front of their families.

As Naomi Klein has written so expertly, he then used this period of shock and slaughter to install a nationwide laboratory for neoliberal economics. If Pincohet's friend Milton Friedman had a theory about cutting food subsidies, privatizing social security, slashing wages or outlawing unions, Pinochet would apply it. The results of these experiments became political ammunition for neoliberal economists throughout the world. Seeing Chile-applied economic theory in textbooks always boggles my mind. It would be like if the American Medical Association published a textbook on the results of Dr. Josef Mengele's work in the concentration camps, without any moral judgment about how he accrued his patients.

Pinochet was the General in charge of this human rights catastrophe. He also was someone who Margaret Thatcher called a friend. She stood by the General even when he was in exile, attempting to escape justice for his crimes. As she said to Pinochet, "[Thank you] for bringing democracy to Chile."


Why indeed?! My intent is to continue my unapologetic disrespect for this psychopathic reptile. As the street parties have shown, she has been disowned by the human race, and reduced in status to that of a vicious animal. She was reprehensible in life, and thus I give her contempt in death. Funerals and other events to mark the death of a human being are meant to remember the person in life. Don't worry about that. We remember.
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Why Would Anyone Celebrate the Death of Margaret Thatcher? Ask a Chilean (Original Post) backscatter712 Apr 2013 OP
would she have made the same decisions in life if she'd known how her death would be received... renate Apr 2013 #1
True, she went from a grocer's daughter to a Baroness with lots of money. haele Apr 2013 #5
Nope. Sorry. Celebrating someone dying is weird to me. cali Apr 2013 #2
So in the Wizard of Oz, you find the 'Ding Dong' number to be a chilling ritual of hate Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #4
oh for the love of reason. A fairy tale is often cali Apr 2013 #7
so don't do it. i think criticizing people for celebrating someone's death has the same effect, HiPointDem Apr 2013 #12
lol. er, no. not the same cali Apr 2013 #27
the tone of your own post.... is no different from anything you condemn in mine. except that HiPointDem Apr 2013 #29
then don't grave dance and mind your damn business when others choose to. do you have boilerbabe Apr 2013 #15
uh. grab a wee clue, sweeetums. cali Apr 2013 #28
more nasty tone of the same variety you condemn in others. except that yours is directed HiPointDem Apr 2013 #30
K&R I am stealing this : "psychopathic reptile". Rust In Pieces, you bloody psychopathic reptile! idwiyo Apr 2013 #3
K&R Jamastiene Apr 2013 #6
I was born in Chile, but I'm American and my family had moved Cleita Apr 2013 #8
K&R Solly Mack Apr 2013 #9
Here's a study on the violence against women during Pinochet's regime. Cleita Apr 2013 #10
Ask the Disappeared... Octafish Apr 2013 #11
Ever see the movie "Missing"? whathehell Apr 2013 #13
Heartbreaking history. Remember Operation CONDOR? Octafish Apr 2013 #19
Why wouldnt they? quakerboy Apr 2013 #14
Right. Thus this headline: "Margaret Thatcher, Staunch Pinochet Supporter and Friend, Dies" Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #16
That puts it together for me Kolesar Apr 2013 #22
wow, maindawg Apr 2013 #17
Seems like a better world. JEB Apr 2013 #18
Just to throw a little "shade tree" societal analysis into the mix........ socialist_n_TN Apr 2013 #20
Great post. nt raccoon Apr 2013 #32
Thanks....... socialist_n_TN Apr 2013 #33
It's amazing how one person's death leaves behind such a blood trail through history. Baitball Blogger Apr 2013 #21
History/Chile, Pinochet and Thatcher ReRe Apr 2013 #23
I'm willing to bet most Americans have no clue what happened 9/11/73 deutsey Apr 2013 #24
I'm willing to bet whathehell Apr 2013 #25
Or victims of the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot Nevernose Apr 2013 #26
Good article. Quantess Apr 2013 #31

renate

(13,776 posts)
1. would she have made the same decisions in life if she'd known how her death would be received...
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 06:38 PM
Apr 2013

... with cheers and street parties? I think she would have. Which means that any handwringing about how it's wrong to speak ill of the dead--because they're dead or something, I don't understand the reasoning--is extra unnecessary in her case. She was cold-hearted but she wasn't stupid. She knew what she was doing.

haele

(12,649 posts)
5. True, she went from a grocer's daughter to a Baroness with lots of money.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:03 PM
Apr 2013

And most of her childhood schoolmates stayed where they were in life. Why should she care what her policies did? She got what she wanted - out of a middling comforable existance of marriage, hard work, and ultimately facing the life of a nobody. She didn't turn out to by a Hyacinth Bucket like pretty much all the other girls who grew up in her neighborhood, she was Maggie Thatcher!

She got to be somebody, through the efforts of "her own bootstraps" - and the boots she put on to trample over anyone who got in her way. She didn't think she was lucky as well as hard working, because she won, didn't she? It's easy to overlook reality, on how lucky one is to be able to get the opportunities to succeed in the first place. How few places there are at the heights that she managed to get to for most people, no matter what class they came from and who's vagina they popped out of.

"And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."


And there should be no opportunities or protection for them if they can't afford it. There is no social compact for those who work hard, but are not as lucky as "Lady Maggie" was.

A true lottery winner - she, like others who used money to make money, could afford to indulge in the economic policies of Hayak and Friedman, even though most in her country couldn't.

Haele
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. Nope. Sorry. Celebrating someone dying is weird to me.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 06:39 PM
Apr 2013

It's dwelling too much in hate and that's dangerous and potent shit. I actually believe hate wreaks havoc on the wiring of the brain- not so weird if you think about it.

And yes, I've had person occasion to deal with this.

I don't mean relief or even being glad. I'm really not talking about emotions. Celebrate is a verb and it's about doing something. I prefer my celebrations to be about something other than hating.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
4. So in the Wizard of Oz, you find the 'Ding Dong' number to be a chilling ritual of hate
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:01 PM
Apr 2013

rather than a song of liberation from a malicious power? The Munchkins are weird to you? How about the scenes from A Christmas Carol where Scrooge sees his own death greeted with glee by those he has treated poorly? Wicked haters! I remember the Albert Finney musical version has a song about the size of Scrooge's funeral called 'Give the People What They Want'.
Just saying that this sort of thing is fairly common in our culture and it is not usually seen as being about hate, but about the joy that your loved ones will no longer endure misuse or misgovernment at the hands of a villain.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
7. oh for the love of reason. A fairy tale is often
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:15 PM
Apr 2013

a vehicle for explosive feelings, but I'm not talking about fairy tales and witches and goblins. And you didn't address a single thing in my post.

And no, in real life death celebrations are actually not a part of our culture.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
12. so don't do it. i think criticizing people for celebrating someone's death has the same effect,
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:11 PM
Apr 2013

personally.

same negative feeling.

heal thyself.

personally, i feel great that maggie the butcher is dead.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
27. lol. er, no. not the same
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 06:19 AM
Apr 2013

Criticism and hate are not synonymous.

Go party. Have a blast. Get drunk off hate. I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I'm explaining in a thread on discussion board (got that? It's a place for opinions and discussion), why I don't do it and why I don't like it.

Don't like that I express my opinion here? Put me on ignore instead of whining about it.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
29. the tone of your own post.... is no different from anything you condemn in mine. except that
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 12:51 PM
Apr 2013

mine is directed against a leader who did actual material & social harm, while yours is directed against an anonymous prole posting on a chatboard.

lol. glad you can spot the *big* issues.



boilerbabe

(2,214 posts)
15. then don't grave dance and mind your damn business when others choose to. do you have
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:43 PM
Apr 2013

this need to feel superior? why should we all have to abide by your personal irrational quirks?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
28. uh. grab a wee clue, sweeetums.
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 06:21 AM
Apr 2013

I have every right to express my opinion- as do you. It's a discussion board, genius.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
30. more nasty tone of the same variety you condemn in others. except that yours is directed
Wed Apr 10, 2013, 12:52 PM
Apr 2013

against the 'little people' while ours is directed against the powerholders. specifically, a powerholder who stole from the poor while mocking them and gave to the rich while slobbering over them. a powerholder who chummed it up with mass murderers and protected them from justice.

way to laser in on the important stuff, cali.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
3. K&R I am stealing this : "psychopathic reptile". Rust In Pieces, you bloody psychopathic reptile!
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 06:43 PM
Apr 2013

Thank you for the article!

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
8. I was born in Chile, but I'm American and my family had moved
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:15 PM
Apr 2013

from there just before Salvadore Allende was elected, so we missed the horrors of Pinochet's regime. Also, my husband was Irish and what she did to the Irish was strictly out of Oliver Cromwell's, "squash the Irish by any means possible" playbook. Baroness Thatcher gets no praise from me. However, Isabel Allende in her novel "House of Spirits" writes eloquently in a fictionalized way about her uncle's murder while in office and the subsequent fall out and how it affected lives especially the women who were incarcerated, raped and tortured for opposing the Pinochet regime.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
10. Here's a study on the violence against women during Pinochet's regime.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:48 PM
Apr 2013

<snip>

a) Sexual Violence: A Widespread, Systematic Method of Torture During Chile's Political Repression and its Purpose

Sexual violence was used as a method of torture throughout the country during the dictatorship from 1973 to 1990. It was practiced systematically and institutionally in almost all known detention centers, concentration camps, stadiums and clandestine prisons, such as Villa Grimaldi, the Cuartel Ollague, the underground parking lot of the Plaza de la Constitucion, the National Stadium, the Tres Alamos and Cuatro Alamos Detention Centers, La Venda Sexy (a detention center suggestively nicknamed "The Sexy Blindfold&quot , the house at Londres 38, the Air Force's Academia de Guerra, the Cuartel Borgono, the El Bosque Air Base, and the Buin Regiment, and in the provinces, the Tejas Verdes detention center, the navel training ship Esmeralda, and Isla Quiriquina. These are the clandestine prisons most often mentioned by women in the Metropolitan Region interviewed for this study.

Sexual violence as torture was committed by all three branches of the Armed Forces (Army, Navy and Air Force), the regular police (Carabineros), police detectives (Investigaciones), soldiers, intelligence agents, and by guards and civilians involved in the business of repression.

Sexual violence was practiced during all the periods of repression. Both the DINA (Direccion Nacional de Inteligencia, National Department of Intelligence) and the CNI (Central Nacional de Inteligencia, National Intelligence Agency) used animals as part of the sexual torture of women. Their goal was the maximum degradation of the victim and the greatest possible degree of humiliation. According to the women, this was the worst of all forms of punishment and torture.

From September 11, 1973 (the day Pinochet led the military coup) onwards, women were classified as a "dangerous" group because of the challenge they posed to the new social order and the masculine hierarchy imposed by the dictatorship, feminist scholar Ximena Bunster explains? The detention of women, not only for their own political activism but also for their association with politically active men, was a first sign of the gender domination to come. The dictatorship's system of repression specifically targeted women. While only some women were tortured, all women were terrorized. Women who dared defy the dictatorship's model of appropriate female behavior placed themselves at clear risk of reprisal.

This reprisal took the form of sexual violence as torture--a real and symbolic expression of the dictatorship's new mandate for women. According to Bunster, the mother/ wife role in the private sphere was "... the only respectable role for a woman in a society that defines her as inherently inferior to man and from whom she derives her secondary sexual identity as mother, sister, wife or partner." (3)

Sexual violence was used to dominate, control, intimidate and humiliate victims, ultimately robbing them of their female identity. (4) Bunster describes this process as the "double brutalization" of women; the dictatorship socialized "women in a determined manner, only to later use their socialization as a method of torture." (5) It should be kept in mind that the military coup was conceived as a defensive reaction designed to maintain Chile's traditional system and paralyze transformations occurring in the 1960s and 1970s. The coup sought to maintain hegemony by halting transformations in Chilean society, politics, economy and culture and the changing nature of female/male relationships. The dictatorship's solution was to impose gender policies that reconstituted and reaffirmed traditional gender relationships and to enforce this ideology with military force.

The dictatorship exalted one exclusive female identity, which all women were expected to assume: the virgin, the mother-wife, a loyal partner for the soldier, and the female savior of the motherland (a maternal figure for all Chileans). This religious representation of women was accompanied by a series of discursive and control mechanisms--social, legal and, when necessary, repressive--to forcibly shape a new gender order.

During the dictatorship, women were "punished" both literally and symbolically if they transgressed the culturally prescribed gender role. In accordance with the military State's theory of a "counterinsurgency" and the need for "national security," women were either labeled as "enemies" or "the women of enemies," which then justified gender policies that relied on the systematic use of sexual violence to maintain men's dominance over women. (6) Therefore, sexual violence was not merely a repercussion of this system, but a fundamental aspect of its logic.


<snip>

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Secrets+revealed%3A+women+victims+of+sexual+violence+as+torture+during...-a0134381844

This is just the beginning. Read the whole study and tell me what you think of Mrs. Thatcher then and whether we shouldn't be remembering her as the horrid woman she was. Remember she was Pinochet's good buddy as were Reagan and Kissinger.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Ask the Disappeared...
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:03 PM
Apr 2013


From desaparecidos.org:

During the Pinochet regime, thousands of people were "disappeared" by the security forces. Their families and friends continue to look for them and for answers as to what happened to them and why.

This is a place where to remember the people disappeared in Chile, and where to learn about what Pinochet and his followers did. We appreciate any information that we can add to these pages.

Presentes

List of the Disappeared
The names of the 1198 disappeared, includes pages with pictures and information about some of them
by the Agrupación de Familiares de Detenidos-Desaparecidos - Britain

The 119 Chileans supposedly disappeared in Argentina

Chilenos Disappeared in Argentina

Argentinians disappeared in Chile

Where are they?
Luis Emilio Recabarren Mena is looking for his family

Carmelo Soria Espinoza

Torturers

Criminal Procedure Against Pinochet

List of Agents of the National Intelligence Commission
La organization that followed the DINA

Documents

Rettig Report

Reports on Human Rights in Chile

Documents by Derechos Chile

Voices

Links

http://www.desaparecidos.org/chile/eng.html

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
13. Ever see the movie "Missing"?
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:38 PM
Apr 2013

concerns the "disappearance" and apparent murder of American Charles Harmon during that time.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. Heartbreaking history. Remember Operation CONDOR?
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:28 PM
Apr 2013


OPERATION CONDOR DOCUMENTS

REVEALED FROM PARAGUAYAN

‘ARCHIVE OF TERROR’


Paraguayan Archive continues to yield Evidence of Coordinated Repression among Military Regimes of the Southern Cone

Documents being used by courts from Paraguay, Chile and Argentina, to Europe and the United States

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 239— Part II


(English Version)

Edited by Carlos Osorio and Mariana Enamoneta

Posted – December 21, 2007

Washington D.C., December 21, 2007 – On the fifteenth anniversary of the discovery of the Archive of Terror in Paraguay, the National Security Archive posted Spanish-language documents that reveal new details of how the Southern Cone military regimes collaborated in hunting down, interrogating, and disappearing hundreds of Latin Americans during the 1970s and 1980s.

The collaboration, which became officially known as “Operation Condor,” drew on cross-border kidnapping, secret detention centers, torture, and disappearance of prisoners—rendition, interrogation and detention techniques that some human rights advocates are comparing to those used today in the Bush administration’s counterterrorism campaign.

The selection of documents posted today included uncensored records relating to the pivotal case of Chilean Jorge Isaac Fuentes Alarcón and Argentine Amílcar Santucho, who were detained in Paraguay in May 1975, and whose interrogation under torture led to the decision by Chilean secret police chief Manual Contreras to formalize coordination against the left among the Southern Cone military states. One document posted today for the first time is the list of questions created by Argentine intelligence agent José Osvaldo Ribeiro to be used in the interrogation of Santucho and Fuentes Alarcón in Paraguay. Chilean agents subsequently rendered Fuentes Alarcón to a secret detention camp in Santiago from where he was disappeared.

The Archive also posted a “thank you” note to the Paraguayan secret police from Col. Contreras for the handling of Fuentes Alarcón, as well as Contreras’s invitation to, and supplementary documents for, the first Condor meeting in November 1975—documents found several years ago in the Paraguayan Archive that have been widely used in books about Operation Condor. The posting includes communications between “Condor 1” (Chile) and “Condor 4” (Paraguay), records of meetings between the D-2 of the Paraguayan intelligence service, and officials from SIDE (the State Intelligence Service) in Argentina, and SID (the Defense Intelligence Service) in Uruguay, and documents related to the coordinated efforts to capture Montoneros in Asunción in 1980—among other facets of the Condor coordination during the era of military dictatorships in the Southern Cone.

"These documents provide a historic passkey into the horror chambers of the Southern Cone military regimes," said Carlos Osorio, who directs the Southern Cone Documentation Project at the National Security Archive. "The atrocities they record from the past remain relevant to the debate over the conduct of counterterrorism operations today and in the future."

Since its discovery in December 1992, the Archive of Terror has become a leading source of evidence for international human rights proceedings in courts across the world, as Paraguayan researchers such as Alfredo Boccia Paz, Rosa Palau and Miriam Gonzalez have worked tirelessly to locate and provide documents to lawyers and judges in countries such as Spain, Italy, France, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay. Their book, Es mi informe: los archivos secretos de la policía de Stroessner (This is my Report: the Secret Archives of Stroessner’s Police), first identified some of the most significant documents from this unique collection.

Since 1998, the National Security Archive has worked with the Paraguayan Center on Documentation and Archive for the Defense of Human Rights (CDyA) that oversees the Archive of Terror. The National Security Archive has collaborated with the Center to create a fully digitalized collection of more than 300,000 records—the Digital Archive of Terror (ATD). This unique data base, now being posted in sections on the world wide Web, is designed to facilitate ongoing research on human rights crimes, and the discovery of new evidence on the history of state-sponsored terrorism in the Southern Cone.

SOURCE:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB239d/index.htm

These aren't just a few crazy rightwing regimes who happen to be friends of Thatcher and Reagan. These mass murderers are part of the BFEE.

quakerboy

(13,920 posts)
14. Why wouldnt they?
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:42 PM
Apr 2013

Hell. Celebrate the history of of those we like, celebrate the deaths of those we dont. Celebrate the continued living of those we like. The only time not to celebrate is when a terrible person continues to live and cause harm to others.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
20. Just to throw a little "shade tree" societal analysis into the mix........
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:45 PM
Apr 2013

that first sentence is pretty stunning by itself. Think about it. There's such a LARGE disconnect between the feelings of the public and the so-called "leaders" and their toadies in the media about this woman. The people, especially the working class and the poor, absolutely HATE this woman and what she did to their country. Yet the MSM and the leadership want to confer sainthood on her. Really Obama??? Freedom and Maggie Thatcher don't go together in anywhere NEAR the same sentence.

To me, this disconnect on this one event points to the larger disconnect between what the people of Britain (and the world) want and what the capitalist system gives them. And that disconnect is getting wider by the minute.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
23. History/Chile, Pinochet and Thatcher
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:19 PM
Apr 2013
K&R

.... wish I could assume 1,000 identities so I could come back and K&R this OP. Thank you, backscatter712. History tells a story. And I thank all the others who have added more history in this thread. I cannot imagine how that big state funeral is going to turn out next week. There will be riot police all along the procession, and probably throughout the crowd. Then again, maybe no one will show up at all, but have a huge party in another party of town. They could have a mock funeral and throw eggs and tomatoes and shoes and chunks of coal, etc., etc., at the coffin. The world is a better place.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
24. I'm willing to bet most Americans have no clue what happened 9/11/73
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 10:42 PM
Apr 2013

or who Pinochet was and what he and the brutal repression and crimes against humanity his brutal regime committed.

If some do, they probably don't know the US (Nixon/Kissenger) supported and even helped to orchestrate the coup and the CIA was implicated in the arrests and executions of two left-wing Americans in Chile at the time (Charles Horman and Frank Terrugi...sp?).

And if they don't know any of that, I'm sure they have no clue that Thatcher was a big pal of the blood-stained dictator and helped to keep him from facing justice.

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