Quite aside from the debate on gun control, what the fuck is wrong with people

[cali]

who don't secure their guns? Yet another story about a small child getting his hands on a loaded gun and shooting someone.

Police: 6-Year-Old Accidentally Shot by 4-Year-Old

Authorities are deciding whether to charge anyone after police say a 6-year-old was shot in the head by a 4-year-old in New Jersey.

The older boy is in serious condition.

Authorities are still investigating how the younger child obtained the .22-caliber rifle from his family's Toms River home Monday
night.

Police Chief Michael Mastronardy says the children were outside the 4-year-old's home when the boy went inside, got the rifle and shot the 6-year-old about 15 yards away. It's not clear if the 4-year-old pulled the trigger or if the rifle accidentally discharged.

<snip>

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-year-accidentally-shot-year-18912094#.UWQh_kqsp7k

[pipoman]

1. Every one an avoidable tragedy

there are <100 children accidentally killed by firearms annually...we hear about every one. There are many other causes of accidental death which are much more statistically probable than this..considering 300 million guns and 100 million owners..

[baldguy]

2. They believe that they're not like everyone else. Thye're the rare *good* gun owners.

They know what they're doing. Bad things will never happen to them.

And then a toddler picks up their weapon and kills someone.

If gun owners were responsible, we wouldn't be having 30,000 people killed each year by guns. Therefore, as a group they are irresponsible. A strong indication of this is that, as a group they stand in the way of any legislation to force them to act responsibly - universal background checks, universal licensing, universal registration, legal, criminal & civil liability for the use of their guns, etc, etc.

[former9thward]

9. Since more than 30,000 die in auto accidents then as a group they are irresponsible.

By your logic. Every auto death is avoidable. But since the odds are that you are an auto driver I'm sure you will reject the conclusion that the group you are a part of is irresponsible.

[pipoman]

13. You seek logic?

[baldguy]

17. Where's the National Drivers Association* to campaign against seat belts, licenses & speed limits?

False equivalencies are false.

(*Which is run for & funded by the auto manufacturers, of course.)

[former9thward]

18. False statements are false too.

If you are referring to the NRA they are a small fraction of gun owners. There are about 100 million gun owners and 4 million in the NRA. Do the math. Yet you have deemed all gun owners as irresponsible. As far as drivers go speed limits were successfully fought and congress repealed the national speed limit of 55. So by your logic you are part of an irresponsible group.

[baldguy]

19. The NRA sets the agenda - and you follow them right along to promote their propaganda.

Falsely equating automobile accidents with deaths caused by firearms is a prime example of this.

[former9thward]

20. You are an auto driver.

All auto deaths are avoidable. Therefore you are part of an irresponsible group.

[baldguy]

28. I don't think that horse is going to take you any further.

Especially since it was dead when you brought it in.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

26. "NRA sets the agenda" and the poster follows "to promote their propaganda." Important, if true.

Do you anything to support that vitriolic attack?

Or are you just making that up?

[baldguy]

29. You don't think the NRA sets the agenda?

Strengthening our national gun laws has a 90% approval rating - yet the bill to pass it is stalled in the House and being set up for a filibuster in the Senate. All because the NRA knows it would actually become law if it was put up for a vote - which is exactly what the NRA fears.

And so, we have RW gun weirdos who are the NRAs allies spread lies, misinformation and propaganda in order to derail any discussion and to distract people from the truth.

But then, you knew that. Right?

[Hoyt]

53. NRA needs to step up and, for all those reponsible gun owners, do the responsible thing

-- endorse the legislation and encourage those they influence to vote for it.

I want to see something that indicates "responsible"

[AnotherMcIntosh]

54. If you hadn't already established a reputation for bashing the NRA (of which I am not a member),

someone like me might take you seriously.

I send my money to the ACLU, and I happen to agree with the ACLU's position on this.

Since I'm not a member of the NRA, and since the NRA has not asked me to be a spokesman for them, I don't have to defend their position, whatever it is.

It's clear to me from the experience of reading your posts, you will continue to bash the NRA no matter what the NRA does.

[Hoyt]

55. All the NRA is doing is contributing heavily to those who support their gun agenda

and other right wing issues unrelatedvto guns. You should ask them to step up.

[raccoon]

64. Everybody always thinks THEY'RE the exception. nt

[Hoyt]

3. People don't secure their guns because they are not nearly as "responsible" as they tell us.

I'll bet just about everyone involved in one of these tragedies would have said the were "responsible" and careful right before someone gets shot.

I'm sure they all have an excuse, and it's never the gun or their gun obsession.

Gun cultists just say we can't do anything because there are more people who don't have accidents, so we should just mark these tragedies off as the price we have to pay to allow immature/irrational/callous people to play with guns to society's detriment.

Sad and darn stupid.

[pipoman]

14. LOL...you guys...

".. there are more people who don't have accidents.."

Maybe if it wasn't so dramatic...the rate that is..100million+ gun owners, less than 100 kids per year tragically killed, or .00001%..I hope this isn't the new standard for too dangerous and to "society's detriment"..society will be getting a little...boring if we eliminate all things resulting in .00001% accidental fatality rate among children..

[Hoyt]

15. Guess you forgot all the other shootings by so-called law-abiding/responsible gun cultists.

Wounds, guns used for intimidation, etc.

[pipoman]

21. Why not give us those numbers, eh?

As opposed to shootings committed by people already prohibited from owning firearms..that is, illegally in possession at the time of the shooting..

[Hoyt]

22. Why waste time, you and your buddies have indicated you'll carry/accumulate guns no matter what.

[Eleanors38]

23. You're right, it is a waste of time. Maybe because the data isn't there.

[Hoyt]

24. Question, If Eleanor Roosevelt supposedly carried Bushmaster.223, would Eleanor223 be your username?

Just wondering.

[Eleanors38]

63. Uuum, the poetic ring sounds a little junky by comparison...

Maybe "Franklins32" could work, since he was known to keep one by the bed. Or "MalcolmsM1."

You've seen the pics of Eleanor firing her .38. You don't think less of her because she liked her own target shooting prowess, do you?

Just asking.

[pipoman]

27. Why don't you point to where

I have said anything even remotely like that? Or is this just another ad hominem?

[Riftaxe]

30. I am more worried about cans of beans

and the mentally unbalanced who believe them to be useful in anything more then a culinary setting.

[HockeyMom]

4. Maybe if the parents were charged

and their guns were confiscated, these irresponsible parents might get the message that they cannot just leave loaded guns around their homes for their little children to get and accidentally kill themselves or someone else.

Yet, they want to gag peditricans from asking if there are guns in the child's home. THIS is exactly why they do. SAFETY reasons!

[mainstreetonce]

5. Serious jail time

And no legal contact with guns for life.

We have to go with serious consequences.

[pipoman]

10. I would agree

as long as the parents of children who drown in the family pool for failure to adequately fence their pool are jailed too..and people who's children are killed on ATVs, poisionings, and any other avoidable means by which their children are tragically killed..but of coarse, except in the most negligent of cases, parents usually aren't sent to prison after an accident claims their child..

[sarisataka]

6. Complacency kills

despite all of the warnings, too many people think that the kids do not know where the guns are kept.

The kids should know exactly where the guns are in the house- right inside that locked safe there--->

[pipoman]

50. We took our kids shooting regularly

there was no mystery about them..in fact I believe both feared handguns until they were 10 or so just because of the sharp crack and recoil in their hand. We were both carrying guns for work, we used to occasionally intentionally leave an unloaded gun out and lay a hair on the grip..they would come tell us we forgot to put our guns away and they never touched them..

[sarisataka]

56. I believe in removing the mystique

my kids have an interest, but I answer their questions and allow them to touch- with rules. I have not tried the leave an unloaded gun test yet, maybe someday.

Still, it is best to not take chances. Double and triple when visitors are in the home.

[pipoman]

59. I agree..

we tested them so we had an idea how they would react if they did find a gun that potentially was loaded..

I believe shooting the guns in their presence when they were 3 or 4...of coarse they had hearing protection on, but even so, once they heard how loud they were, they wanted nothing to do with them..when they were 6 or 7 they began showing an interest again so this time we took .22 rifle and a smaller caliber handgun to the range and shot some. At that age they liked shooting the .22, but the crack of the 9mm combined with the recoil resulted in them wanting nothing to do with handguns. At 10 or 12 we began shooting shotguns...we live in one of the top bird hunting states in the country...we set up a trap shooting area on our farm and they liked shooting trap. At 14 they wanted to go deer hunting so we practiced with rifles and went deer hunting..When not in use guns were locked up and they never tried (as far as I know) getting into them. They knew that any time they asked we would go target shoot or hunting. Now in their 20's they don't keep guns in their homes, but still like to shoot when they come home. One of them joined the Marine Corps 5 years ago and earned his PFC stripe in basic training because of qualifying expert repeatedly on their range.

We have always been very careful. As a recreational activity, I don't believe shooting sports are any more dangerous than about any other recreational physical activity.

[kentuck]

7. I would like to see a Democrat propose a bill...

...that would make anyone that sold any weapon without a background check an accessory to the crime if that weapon is used in the act of a crime. In other words, they could be charged with accessory to murder if someone is killed with a gun they sold.

[pipoman]

11. Wouldn't it make sense then

to make background checks available to anyone who wishes to use it? How can they obtain a background check? Then if they do use NICS, should they be immune from anything involving the gun after the transfer? As it is, if I want to sell a gun to my neighbor there is no way to do a background check..no access to NICS by private citizens..

[Hoyt]

31. Sure you can do a background check, go to your local gun store. Simple.

[pipoman]

32. They are not required to do them..

and many won't. They'll do out of state transfers from other FFL dealers only. A simple regulatory change requiring FFLs to do private transfers in a timely manner for a low statutory fee would be a good start to get people to do checks on intrastate sales. Then a public service campaign and booths at larger gun shows to do checks with immunity from civil and criminal acts committed with the gun after the transfer would be a good selling point. Surely you would agree?

[Hoyt]

33. Tell them it is "responsible" thing to do, and you won't come back if they

continue to act irresponsibly. It's time for gun cultists and gun profiteers to step up.

Years ago I sold an inherited weapon. Went in gun store pulled out my wallet, they charged me $35. They handled it from there.

Again, it's time for gun lovers and profiteers to step up. . . . .

[pipoman]

35. You really don't want to find a solution

do you...preferring to snark and whine ..

oh, and let's not forget ad hominem.

[Hoyt]

36. Gave you a simple solution. What is problem with it and why don't gun cultists step up?

[pipoman]

37. Oh it's a simple solution alright..simple it is..

[Hoyt]

39. You don't really care about ensuring a safe transfer, do you?

That is small price and simple process for gun owner who is truly responsible.

[pipoman]

40. lol

[Hoyt]

41. Step up, or admit you don't care as long as you walk away with fist full of cash.

[pipoman]

42. You don't know me or what you're talking about..

I have advocated above for years while you have been cheering the same impossible bills year after year only to be disappointed and obviously bitter. There would be a lot more states require checks if the very simple outline I gave above would happen...but alas, nothing will happen now until next time nothing happens..no thanks to gun control advocates all or nothing nonsense..

[Hoyt]

44. Your using data base would be invasion of privacy, no accountability, sloppy record keeping, etc.

Wont work without FFL involved.

[pipoman]

48. That is exactly what I said above...

I also said that a simple administrative change to licensure regulations requiring any FFL to do an NICS check upon request at a statutory fee of $20 or 30..really simple start..further as it is if a state decides to require background checks, they have to develop a system which costs money and is a duplication of services..if states could enact universal checks without having to lift a finger or spend any money many would enact legislation...then with state laws tied to use of NICS states may be more proactive in reporting to NICS so crazies and criminals don't slip through the cracks..

[Hoyt]

49. You said you do not have a way to do background check, I said you do - go to FFL.

[pipoman]

51. Yes, and I said FFLs are not required to do private sale background checks

and many will not do them or would do them reluctantly for a high fee. I am talking about requiring them to do it as a condition of licensure..

[Hoyt]

52. And I said if FFL refuses, have all the gunners tell the store they ain't coming back

until the store starts acting responsibily. You could step up if you really cared.

[pipoman]

60. Or we could simply require them to do it..

not seeing why you must be so ridiculously obtuse...if you bothered to pay attention you would see that we have been talking about the same thing...you wish for endless laws which can't happen, but when shown a regulatory change which could happen you oppose in favor of this silliness, "have all the gunners tell the store they ain't coming back until the store starts acting responsibily"..do you mean all 150 million "gunners" should go to Bobs Gun Shop?...This is exactly why nothing gets done on this issue...exactly..

[Hoyt]

62. Why sit on one's ass until the law is passed. You can force them to do it, assuming they won't.

Like I said. First one I called when I sold an inherited gun said come right over, and I did.

[Recursion]

8. "Police are deciding whether to charge anyone..."

As much as I hate to agree with an NRA talking point, when they say "enforce existing laws", this seems like a damn good example.

[pipoman]

12. Not as good though,

as the FBI getting phone calls 10's of thousands of times per year telling them the name, address, and phone number of people prohibited from owning firearms who are, at that very moment, trying to buy a gun..then investigating less than 5% and prosecuting less than 3%..that is a problem exceeding that of jailing parents who just lost a child..IMO

[slackmaster]

16. Three factors: 1. Basic stupidity. 2. Lack of training. 3. A false sense that their children...

...are somehow different than everyone else's children.

[Lizzie Poppet]

25. As a gun owner, I consider proper security to be intrinsic to that ownership.

Possession of lethal weapons carries the implicit moral responsibility to secure those weapons. I would have no objection to that responsibility being encoded in the law.

[Hoyt]

34. Admirable.

[CBHagman]

38. Unfortunately, not a new story.

I believe I was in middle school or high school (decades back now) the first time I encountered an article about the appalling rate of gun accidents per day, particularly those involving children and teens.

[pipoman]

47. I suppose it depends on your definition of appalling..

around 120 accidental gun deaths annually for 0-18 years old...considering 100,000,000++ gun owners...tragic everyone, but not my definition of an appalling rate when compared to other recreational activities..

[CBHagman]

57. Deaths.

[url]http://gavindebecker.com/resources/child_safety/boys_and_guns/[/url]

Firearms are unique among consumer goods in America in that they are not governed by any federal safety regulations. There are four categories of regulations covering the manufacture of teddy bears, but none about guns. While most every business is concerned with delivering its product or service safely, gun manufacturers are studying ways to make their products more lethal. They work to make them more portable, more rapid, and more effective at damaging human tissue.

(SNIP)

Guns could have components that inhibit firing by children, or technologies that allow operation only in the hands of the owner (with a coded ring or wristband, for example, or a built-in combination lock). It’s easier to shoot most handguns than it is to open a bottle of children’s vitamins.

Speaking of tamper-proof containers, the design of billions of bottles of consumer products was changed after the deaths of eight people from poisoned Tylenol, a tragedy completely beyond the control of the manufacturer. Ironically, gun-makers knowingly and enthusiastically build products that kill five hundred Americans each week for which we don’t require a single safety feature.


[url]http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/dec/15/our-moloch/[/url]

The gun is not a mere tool, a bit of technology, a political issue, a point of debate. It is an object of reverence. Devotion to it precludes interruption with the sacrifices it entails. Like most gods, it does what it will, and cannot be questioned. Its acolytes think it is capable only of good things. It guarantees life and safety and freedom. It even guarantees law. Law grows from it. Then how can law question it?

Its power to do good is matched by its incapacity to do anything wrong. It cannot kill. Thwarting the god is what kills. If it seems to kill, that is only because the god’s bottomless appetite for death has not been adequately fed. The answer to problems caused by guns is more guns, millions of guns, guns everywhere, carried openly, carried secretly, in bars, in churches, in offices, in government buildings. Only the lack of guns can be a curse, not their beneficent omnipresence.

[pipoman]

58. You stated the accidental child death rate from guns is "appalling"

I simply pointed out that .00001%, while each is tragic, isn't any more appalling than most any other recreational activity..the death rate for kids in residential swimming pools is nearly 10 times that number..many if not most of those could have been avoided by simply putting in a fence with locking gates..

Of coarse you are welcome to eulogize and philosophize and hold your own convictions..just people believe these tragedies are far more common than they are because unlike most other childhood accidental deaths, we hear about every one of these..

[GreenStormCloud]

43. In a country of 310 million people, some people will screw up.

People still text and drive, or drink and drive, or try to drink, text, and drive.

I used to drive 18 wheeler, and from high up in my cab I could see inside the cars as they passed me, or I passed them. You would be amazed at some of the things I saw people doing while driving.

[Hoyt]

45. like playing with their gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

46. In a nation of 310 million people, some will do that.

100% security and safety is impossible.

[Crepuscular]

61. 17,000 children injured annually

due to riding lawnmowers.

Clearly we need an assault lawnmower ban.

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/hiddendangers/a/lawn-mower-accidents.htm