North Korea is more despicable and dangerous than you imagine.

[snagglepuss]

Prior to listening to an intereview on CBC radio with NK expert B.R. Myers author of The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters, I never knew about NK's rabid race based death cult ideology. NK is fixated with racial purity, for instance NK women who return pregnant from China are forced to submit to abortions and itsextreme militiary first ideology is basically a death cult - every child is told every day of the wonderful possibility of death by immolation in the service of the motherland and taught not to fear the idea of war, not even a nuclear one.


Here's some snippets of a 2010 review written by Christopher Hitchens

snip

Myers makes a persuasive case that we should instead regard the Kim Jong-il system as a phenomenon of the very extreme and pathological right. It is based on totalitarian "military first" mobilization, is maintained by slave labor, and instills an ideology of the most unapologetic racism and xenophobia.


These conclusions of his, in a finely argued and brilliantly written book, carry the worrisome implication that the propaganda of the regime may actually mean exactly what it says, which in turn would mean that peace and disarmament negotiations with it are a waste of time—and perhaps a dangerous waste at that.


snip


Unlike previous racist dictatorships, the North Korean one has actually succeeded in producing a sort of new species. Starving and stunted dwarves, living in the dark, kept in perpetual ignorance and fear, brainwashed into the hatred of others, regimented and coerced and inculcated with a death cult: This horror show is in our future, and is so ghastly that our own darling leaders dare not face it and can only peep through their fingers at what is coming.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/02/a_nation_of_racist_dwarfs.2.html

[Mika]

1. Some people say that Castro eats babies.

[onehandle]

2. Are you defending North Korea? nt

[Mika]

13. No.

Just pointing out that some say that Castro eats babies as part Santería rituals. And many more gruesome and horrible stories.

Now, I've been to Cuba many times, seen the admiration and respect Cubans have for Castro, have never seen nor heard of baby eating as part of any rituals there, nor any of the gruesome stories peddled to us about Cuba's harsh dictatorship - so, I'm somewhat apprehensive when I read hyperbole such as above about "axis of evil" countries.

Doesn't mean that I defend inhumane militarized gov't.

From the last para of the Hitchens review in OP ...
"..living in the dark, kept in perpetual ignorance and fear, brainwashed into the hatred of others, regimented and coerced and inculcated with a death cult: This horror show is in our future .. "

Sounds familiar.

[cliffordu]

66. Comparing the US to N. Korea, now???

Really????


Kinda pathetic.

[Mika]

72. Project much?

[cliffordu]

74. Mebbe I'm just ignorant....'Splain this:

From the last para of the Hitchens review in OP ...
"..living in the dark, kept in perpetual ignorance and fear, brainwashed into the hatred of others, regimented and coerced and inculcated with a death cult: This horror show is in our future .. "

Sounds familiar.

[Mika]

75. OK. It's a familiar, well researched & documented pattern of nationalistic social engineering.

Used all over the planet.

[cliffordu]

76. So my original question stands.

As accurate.

[Mika]

78. No. Only in your mind.

[cliffordu]

82. Well....

lol.

[TimberValley]

3. So you're dismissing data out of hand? n/t.

[Mika]

9. No. The OP is a book review by Hitchens of a 2010 book.

Looks like a good read.

Still, some people say that Castro eats babies.

[snagglepuss]

5. Welcome to ignore. Such ignorance is beyond my tolerance.

[Mika]

7. You can't tolerate ignorance (as perceived/projected by you), so you use ignore?

OK. Ignore away.

[LooseWilly]

83. Hehe... I love irony.

[Mika]

84. Indeed.

I hate ignorance, so, I choose to remain ignorant (by using the ignore function when encountering differing opinions).

[11 Bravo]

10. OK, defend North Korea ... any facet of the governance. Otherwise ...

quit trying so hard.

[RKP5637]

54. +1, Agree! n/t

[Marrah_G]

56. Do some research

North Korea is a a very bad place to be a human being.

[hrmjustin]

67. +1

[WinkyDink]

79. Uh......no. "Some say" your post is stupid.

[randome]

4. That last paragraph in your snippet is disturbing.

But it rings true.

[RKP5637]

52. Bothers me too, but as you said, "But it rings true." I agree! We are walking down the

path here of a pretty brainwashed compliant populace.

[Iggo]

6. And I'm still not afraid of them.

Then again, I don't live in Seoul.

[slackmaster]

8. I got a post card from there once

One of my college buddies is married to a Chinese woman and lives in China.

[spanone]

11. scary culture...built on fear, intimidation and domination

[Comrade_McKenzie]

12. Only the United States can do wrong in the eyes of some ideological kooks.

Criticism of other countries is "beating the war drums" and we should keep our imperialist mouths shut so as not to aid the MIC in their goals.

[Rex]

14. Not really, I have one hell of an imagination.

And already know that NK is fucked and the citizens are starving to death. Been that way for decades, always wondered why we didn't just put the hammer down and finish the war.

[TimberValley]

17. Wouldn't that have been kind of like Iraq in 2003?

I seem to recall that some people were advocating for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 because America "didn't finish the job in Iraq the first time." (meaning the 1991 Gulf War)

[Rex]

28. No I meant back in the 1950s - 60s.

Never could understand why we couldn't work something out with China.

[dsc]

29. because America was tired of war

Basically we fought China to a tie in Korea and we had no desire to put in the troops to break the tie. The Korean War is why Truman left office with the lowest poll numbers in recorded history until Bush 2 came on the scene. Ike promised to end the war and end the war he did.

[Rex]

34. But we are technically still at war with NK.

We did sign an armistice treaty, but that is it. Dunno, just seems like something could have been worked out by now. Something needs to be done, an entire country starving to death can be avoided.

[GreenStormCloud]

49. Truman was afraid of a nuclear war with Russia.

MacArthur wanted to kick NK & Chinese ass all the way to the Yalu a second time. Truman was afraid that such an action would lead to a wider war in Asia with the Russians supporting China by opening the European front. So he sacked MacArthur and replaced him with Ridgeway who had orders to fight to a tie, not a win. So we spent two years holding a line at about the 38th. Eisenhower started dropping hints that he was going to go to the Yalu and use nukes to get there. The truce was signed a few months after he was inaugurated.

[Posteritatis]

61. China was a bit less workthingsoutable then than it is now. (nt)

[RobertEarl]

15. America, Love it or Leave It

Get a job, you damn hippies. Join the army! Get a hair cut! The KKK is looking for you, boy. 7 million in prison and counting. We are a Christian nation. Gawd, guns and gays win elections, and Diebold.

This all started when N Korea invaded Vietnam, right? Or was that Iraq?

Rah, rah, rah! $1 trillion defense budget. USA!

I love my country, but not the killer right part. Bush was their hero, now not so much, but he was!

[warrprayer]

16. N.K is making a serious mistake.

Obama is not chickenhawk Bush. Aggression will not be tolerated and forgotten. Ask Bin Laden. Oh wait, you can't...

[rmax]

18. They're easily either on a suicide mission or completely dillusional.

We've got multiple (conventional) weapons locked on every military installation they have. It's easy to spot them - they're the ones with lights on at night. The entire rest of the country is dark. One shot. One shot. That's all it will take and there will be no N. Korean military. This isn't 1953 anymore, but they're still stuck there.

Kim Jong Un is a moron. The country is being run by generals who weren't even born by 1953. He's nothing more than a puppet, a prop if you will. If they are so deluded to think they can take on the rest of the world, so be it. Nothing good will come of it.

[RKP5637]

55. Yep, my thoughts too. n/t

[Volaris]

19. If they cross the DMZ, or start flinging missiles at Seoul,

a lot of those Death Cultists are going to get their wish. Here's the thing though:

The complete destruction of that Government will take (at a rough guess) 60-90 days. The "re-unification" of the peninsula under a not insane government will take 60-90 YEARS. Maintaining order and rebuilding the North after the destruction of the aforementioned Government will make the 8-year occupation of Baghdad look like child's play. It will take GENERATIONS to unbrainwash the General Population up there, because mostly, you will have to simply wait for a lot of them to die of old age, and plan for the provision of their almost every human need until then.

Destroying the government up there is the EASY part. We can start that project on Tuesday if we want to. We are NOT prepared for what will come AFTER that, and neither is the Government in Seoul.

[Demo_Chris]

21. Correct, and this is why we have tolerated their insanity. But...

Before this was relatively safe to do. I believe the hope was that the new leader would be rational. Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be, and I believe they are rapidly running out of time. Nuclear weapons without delivery systems are bad, but manageable. Nuclear weapons coupled with functional long range missiles is another matter. The Japanese wouldn't tolerate it, and I doubt the Chinese are keen on the idea either.

I wonder if North Korea sees it. Not the people, who worship the Dear Leader as a god, but their leadership. I wonder if they understand that they are almost out of time.

[Volaris]

24. I can't imagine the leadership over there is dumb enough

to actually believe they can win by themslves (as in China won't play ball, and Russia's attitude will quickly devolve to "Yeah... that was a pretty dumb thing of you to do&quot .

If they do believe that, it shouldn't take but a week of bombing thier military infrastructure with ABSOLUTE impunity on our part for them to change their minds. Like we should bomb them for a week, and then a week of NOT, where we say, "look, NOW you know what you're up against, let it go."

If it comes to shots fired, I think the best footing is to give them an incentivized "out" that allows them to re-establish the cease-fire, and go back to telling the slaves how great they are, now that they got the Enemy to "agree to the Great Leaders terms, rather than face emminent destruction at the hands of the NKorean Army." or whatever such propogandistic nonesense they need to come up with.

And you're right. Japan won't tolerate it, even though I'm not sure how much they can do about it. Their Navy is OUR Navy, for all practical purposes at this point in their history, and while I don't know what the limits are on their Air Force after the Imperial surrender (if any), as a first-world modern economic power I can't imagine the Japenese would consign themselves to flying second-rate planes with third-rate pilots, so it seems likely that if they are legally allowed to do so, they could wreak some pretty decent havoc on the NK leadership, and could do it from the relative saftey of their own land-based runways...

So, good luck with all that Lil Kim.

[Demo_Chris]

25. Let me clarify

I don't believe that their military commanders believe they can win (or I hope not) my concern is that they do not understand that the violent rhetoric and threats and aggression will no longer be tolerated when they gain the ability to strike Japan or the United States.

As for what Japan can do, one concern is that they will choose to become a nuclear power themselves. They certainly have the material and knowlege and could probably begin assembling weapons immediately if they chose to do so. This would, for obvious reasons, help destabilize the region. The Chinese damn sure wouldn't be happy. So you know, the Japanese Air Force is about as state of the art as it is possible to get. They use a lot of heavily modified US equipment -- so modified that it is essentially their own designs. Basically they are US aircraft but better.

But no one wants war with Korea. The human cost would be unimaginable.

[Volaris]

27. ahh. K.

and yes you are correct. No one WANTS a war with Korea. But yeah, if they push, there are enough 'vital interests" in the region that too many States WON'T fuck around with putting them down.

Thanks also for clarification on Japanese capability=)

[KamaAina]

63. And the South Korean institution with the biggest hooks into the North is...

drum roll, please...

the Unification Church.

[DevonRex]

70. My son lives in Seoul.

I am not happy with any of this. All I know is that my Spidey sense is zinging all mover the place about Un. He is an true believer. They are dangerous.

[TwilightGardener]

20. It's stuff like this that makes me wonder how long we're going to let them go on this way--

and how long we're willing to wait to act. Until they finally have successful long-range missiles to hit us with? Scary shit.

[snagglepuss]

32. The question is whether China wants to see NK attacked. It seems highly doubtful.

[RKP5637]

58. Yep, same concern here. There is a line to cross, they are damn close to crossing that line IMO.

The other factor I was thinking of as I was reading this thread ... this is a delusional government/populace. Many have been fed this BS for a long time. We see the consequences ... they might intellectually, perhaps, but not at a gut level IMO. Most there IMO are a bunch of robots waiting for someone to pull their string! As you say, "Scary shit." The messages they are spewing are unbelievable ... giving more and more indication of why they need to be, somehow, reined in.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. yes it is. But the fact still remains that any war with North Korea will - even without nukes mean

a minimum of several hundred thousand dead South Koreans - probably much, much more - and the destruction of much of South Korea's transport, energy and industrial infrastructure. - With close to two millions North Korean troops just north of Seoul's northern suburbs armed with one of the world's largest supplies of artillery and short range missiles - this would be accomplished within minutes - Preemptive strike or not there would be little defense against such an attack.

North Korea's fate would undoubtedly be much worse - much worse, of course. But even assuming total military victory over North Korea came very quickly - millions of half-starved and desperate North Koreans refugees will be doing everything they can to escape to an already battered and devastated South Korea.

It must not be forgotten that the Clinton Administration were in fact negotiating a viable agreement with North Korea that would have brought an end to their nuclear weapons program, defused the tensions and normalized relationships. The Bush Administration dramatically changed course as we all know and placed North Korea in the "Axis of Evil" - thus in North Korea's mind they were affectively being told that they can expect a future attack. As wretched as this regime is - I think it is fair to say that we should have stayed on course with the Clinton Administration's policy.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. North Korea is, by all accounts, a nightmare. nt

[zappaman]

37. Are you kidding?

Don't you remember how we were told how lovely it is?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1193414

[Warren DeMontague]

40. yeah, nothing staged *there*.

That place gives me the SERIOUS willies.

[GreenStormCloud]

50. Those pictures tell a lot more than they intend to.

No traffic in any of the streets.

The construction shovel has no signs of use, no dirt, paint is spotless.

Pictures of the people don't have anybody at all in the background. No people just wandering past.

[RKP5637]

62. There is a stoic sadness in their faces. To me, it looks far from a lovely place, doesn't it ...n/t

[dtom67]

26. sweet!!!

I own stock in DTom Industries. Step right up and get your DTom missile defense units! Don't forget your complimentary "smoking gun/mushroom cloud" T -shirts!
Just remember your position 10 or 15 years from now, when Hubris II comes out.
Maybe we can help them like we "helped" the People of Iraq.

I don't support any foreign government, but that does'nt mean I have to support a pre -emptive strike on them......

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Erect bogeyman, wave flag, sing God Bless America, send in the bombers. Works every time.

And, of course, give mountains of money to the MIC.

[B2G]

31. Sell that to Shin Dong-Hyuk

I suggest you watch the documentary. Maybe you'd be less glib.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Maybe I could fit it in between the ones on Fidel, Ho, and Saddam.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. It's striking how often credulity masquerades as scepticism.

Try actually thinking, rather than just lazily assuming that anyone who opposes the US can't be all that bad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Did I say that?

I thin Kim is a bad character. Saddam was a bloody dictator. Even Uncle Ho was no angel.

But, we've gotten ourselves into bloody, unnecessary wars and done equally awful things "defending" ourselves against bad guys to the point we've become bad guys.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

[msanthrope]

35. I miss Hannah Bell!!! Seriously, though, Myer's book is brilliant and he is correct about the

origins of NK ideology....Imperial Japan, not Communism.

There's really little point in negotiating with NK.

[fadedrose]

36. Trouble is, we can't confuse their government with their people..

They don't like it there either.

[WinkyDink]

81. Says who?

[fadedrose]

38. "Call me"

When Un told Rodman to tell the President to call him, it reminded me of young boy whose parents do not allow him to use the phone, but did not stop calls from coming in to avoid criticism of their control of the man.

I think he's being watched by the old crazies.....he grew up in Sweden, didn't he (I think), and likes a lot of American stuff...


I wish the President would call him, but he's under the same restraint from the crazies in our own government...

[GreenStormCloud]

51. Not Sweden, but Switzerland. N/T

[fadedrose]

57. Ya, the land of the banks....

Just read something about Sweden in Discussions, oh well.

I still make the point that "call me" is the same as "they're watching every move I make..." and they're telling him "the Americans, including Rodman, don't give a dam about you."

Oh, I know what it was, without looking it up, it was llamas. They're going to try them out to save their sheep from wolves.


I remember everything eventually.


Thank you for reading my post.

[Hugabear]

39. Demonizing them will make it so much easier to flatten their country

Why, they're barely even human anymore! They're a new sub-species of human!

When I read that last paragraph, I immediately picture something like Gollum from Lord of the Rings. I suppose if we make the North Koreans somehow less human, it will make it more acceptable when we inevitably bomb the living hell out of them.

Has Kim Jong-Un begun ripping babies out of incubators?

Clarification: I know perfectly well that Kim Jong-Un is a ruthless dictator. My post is not meant to defend North Korea in any way, shape, or form. Rather, it's a contemplation on our need to somehow demonize the other side, make them seem inferior, almost as if bombing and killing them would be doing them a service.

[Dreamer Tatum]

41. Demonizing them my flabby balls

They approved a NUCLEAR ATTACK ON US.

That isn't demonic enough for you?

[Hugabear]

42. Yawn

North Korea threatening a nuclear attack on the US carries about as much weight as if I were to threaten to blow up the moon.

[Dreamer Tatum]

43. I know what you'd say if they did manage to nuke Seoul

"Tsk. We did that to justify war against N. Korea."

[Hugabear]

45. North Korea makes threats all the time. What makes you think they actually intend to carry through?

First of all, there is absolutely NO evidence that North Korea even has the ability to fit a nuclear warhead on a missile.

Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that North Korea is mobilizing their troops for war.

Finally, North Korea knows that if they were foolish enough to use nuclear weapons, Pyongyang would be vaporized and it would mean the end of the Kim dynasty.


Everything indicates this is simply part of their usual game, making threats under the assumption that the US will eventually give them concessions. The only thing different this time is that it's a new leader in charge, one who isn't used to playing the game, so the intensity has been ratcheted up.

It's possible North Korea may conduct some sort of limited military action as they've done in the past - shelling an island, launching a torpedo at a SK ship, etc. If that were to happen, then it could escalate into serious combat. However, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that NK is serious about starting a war or using nuclear weapons.

[former9thward]

73. They don't need to put it on a missile.

There have been two nuclear attacks in history and neither came by missile. In the modern era bombs can go by plane, ships and even suitcases.

[snagglepuss]

46. read this very short article and then see if you can be so glib.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/22011/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-a-shocking-look-inside-north-korean-camp-14

[RKP5637]

64. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[derby378]

77. The worst part of all is that this isn't the only political prison gulag in the DPRK

There are many similiar institutions, some of them clustered in the northeast near the border with Russia, and one of them reportedly has a chamber that sounds a lot like the infamous Gas Bell from We where prisoners die slow, agonizing deaths in a cloud of the latest gas produced by North Korea's military labs. God only knows how many people were tortured to death in the DPRK Gas Bell.

[Posteritatis]

60. North Korea demonizes itself with its every action. (nt)

[PolitFreak]

44. K&R

[snooper2]

48. Just don't say anything bad about Kim Jong il

He is in the magical spirit world now where all spirits have free love and unicorn spirits provide free milk for all!

[RKP5637]

53. K&R !!! n/t

[Taverner]

59. Despicable? Yes. Dangerous? No.

[marcusc81]

65. NK Basketball

You're right on most accounts. However, NK basketball rules dictate that dunks are worth like 8 points, which must make the game more interesting IMO

[JVS]

68. I don't see how a different motive from what had been previously assumed makes...

them more dangerous.

[quinnox]

69. Its hard for me to feel scared of North Korea

It will have to be a lot better than this to make me think any war action should be taken. There are brutal war lords committing unspeakable atrocities in Africa, and yet we do nothing about it. There is evil in many, many places around the world, in different regimes.

[Agnosticsherbet]

80. I've heard repeatedly that the NK are doing this just to get the U.S. to blink...

and reduce sanctions.

This does make me ask, what if they really do intend to fight a war, a nuclear war, and go out in a blaze of glory, or think that they can win big by being the last survivors in a graveyard. as Their way of saying, "It is better to burn than to fade away."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

85. This just happens to coincide with the sequester-mandated reduction in the military budget.

Just a coincidence.