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Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:20 PM Apr 2013

Glenn Greenwald on Margaret Thatcher and Misapplied Death Etiquette

Last edited Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:56 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.guardiannews.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

Monday 8 April 2013 10.41 EDT

Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette

The dictate that one 'not speak ill of the dead' is (at best) appropriate for private individuals, not influential public figures


Glenn Greenwald

News of Margaret Thatcher's death this morning instantly and predictably gave rise to righteous sermons on the evils of speaking ill of her. British Labour MP Tom Watson decreed: "I hope that people on the left of politics respect a family in grief today." Following in the footsteps of Santa Claus, Steve Hynd quickly compiled a list of all the naughty boys and girls "on the left" who dared to express criticisms of the dearly departed Prime Minister, warning that he "will continue to add to this list throughout the day". Former Tory MP Louise Mensch, with no apparent sense of irony, invoked precepts of propriety to announce: "Pygmies of the left so predictably embarrassing yourselves, know this: not a one of your leaders will ever be globally mourned like her."

This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power. "Respecting the grief" of Thatcher's family members is appropriate if one is friends with them or attends a wake they organize, but the protocols are fundamentally different when it comes to public discourse about the person's life and political acts. I made this argument at length last year when Christopher Hitchens died and a speak-no-ill rule about him was instantly imposed (a rule he, more than anyone, viciously violated), and I won't repeat that argument today; those interested can read my reasoning here.

But the key point is this: those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography. Typifying these highly dubious claims about Thatcher was this (appropriately diplomatic) statement from President Obama: "The world has lost one of the great champions of freedom and liberty, and America has lost a true friend." Those gushing depictions can be quite consequential, as it was for the week-long tidal wave of unbroken reverence that was heaped on Ronald Reagan upon his death, an episode that to this day shapes how Americans view him and the political ideas he symbolized. Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.

Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends&quot . And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."

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Glenn Greenwald on Margaret Thatcher and Misapplied Death Etiquette (Original Post) Hissyspit Apr 2013 OP
This concept is going to apply both ways. TimberValley Apr 2013 #1
"Are going to?" They've been there, done that. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #5
Greenwald mentions Hugo Chavez Enrique Apr 2013 #18
As they do every day. Orsino Apr 2013 #22
How can we forget what they said on the very day.... ReRe Apr 2013 #24
So what! cartach Apr 2013 #29
Damn straight. Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #2
Thatcher referred to Nelson Mandela and the ANC as "terrorists". Dawson Leery Apr 2013 #3
Was horse manure tavalon Apr 2013 #11
My personal rule has always been to wait until they are interred... Blue_Tires Apr 2013 #4
I know how most of Britain wants her interred... backscatter712 Apr 2013 #6
They do indeed amuse bouche Apr 2013 #19
"They" cremated Milton Friedman's ashes and scattered them duffyduff Apr 2013 #36
Death etiquette is stupid Kalidurga Apr 2013 #7
Fuck Glenn Greenwald! Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #8
"Nil nisi bonum" was originally rooted in a fear of vengeful spirits starroute Apr 2013 #9
He's right about policy and action critiques. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #10
It may be ghoulish but it's a long worn tradition tavalon Apr 2013 #12
I don't grave dance. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #14
Then you are a better person than me tavalon Apr 2013 #15
Not really. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #16
True that tavalon Apr 2013 #17
No, but reminding people of the devasting effects and hypocrisy Hissyspit Apr 2013 #25
Maybe not, but his life helped make the child hungry. Think about that. WinkyDink Apr 2013 #27
Oh I agree. Criticize his policies, her policies geek tragedy Apr 2013 #28
Tell that to the worms that ate his body! n/t RoccoR5955 Apr 2013 #44
*I* certainly won't dance on their graves. Buns_of_Fire Apr 2013 #20
LOL tavalon Apr 2013 #23
Thanks Glen malaise Apr 2013 #13
"Respect a family in grief today," coming from the right... Orsino Apr 2013 #21
"globally mourned"?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! WinkyDink Apr 2013 #26
That gave me a chuckle too. There are actual CHEERS and parties being tossed. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #34
There is a decent interval though. iandhr Apr 2013 #30
"There is a decent interval though." Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #32
That can't wait like 48 hours? iandhr Apr 2013 #35
48 hours = time for the corporate media to start the spin machine and make sure she's beatified. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #38
Did it wait for Nixon? Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #41
There is no interval between the death and the revisionism, false mythologizing Hissyspit Apr 2013 #33
Fuck that shit. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #37
yeah, that would be RoccoR5955 Apr 2013 #43
Nice how he points out the hypocracy of the Right.... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #31
there's one huge difference though hfojvt Apr 2013 #39
K&R. MotherPetrie Apr 2013 #40
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead! RoccoR5955 Apr 2013 #42
Kick nt Hissyspit Apr 2013 #45
 

TimberValley

(318 posts)
1. This concept is going to apply both ways.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:24 PM
Apr 2013

Right-wing fundamentalists are going to act the same way in criticism of liberal politicians when they pass away.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
5. "Are going to?" They've been there, done that.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

Look at what happened with Ted Kennedy's death.

Rules of civility are suspended, as far as I'm concerned.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
18. Greenwald mentions Hugo Chavez
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 02:39 PM
Apr 2013

and like Glenn, I don't remember anyone saying "don't speak ill of Hugo Chavez."

cartach

(511 posts)
29. So what!
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:36 PM
Apr 2013

They do it the extreme using exaggeration and lies when liberal politicians die, and for that matter any liberal high profile person who is still living. To all of a sudden feel kindly of tyrants when they pass away is the height of hypocrisy. The world is well rid of them and we should celebrate rather than mourn.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
6. I know how most of Britain wants her interred...
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:26 PM
Apr 2013

Cremate her, then mix her ashes in with a ceramic. Use the ceramic to make a toilet, so everyone can piss on her grave.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
36. "They" cremated Milton Friedman's ashes and scattered them
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:06 PM
Apr 2013

No doubt they didn't want to bury them for fear somebody would piss on them.

I'd have been the first in line to do it.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
7. Death etiquette is stupid
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:34 PM
Apr 2013

Dead people don't care what you think about them. And death doesn't make a person a saint.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
9. "Nil nisi bonum" was originally rooted in a fear of vengeful spirits
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:49 PM
Apr 2013

It was based on the widely-spread belief that the spirits of the dead had the ability to know what anybody back on earth was saying about them -- and might show up to zap you if you said something less than totally respectful.

It's related to the way in which pharaohs and emperors were given "death names," so that you could refer to them after they'd died in a way that might not catch their attention.

So the real question is -- are you afraid of Margaret Thatcher's vengeful ghost?

If not, have at it.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. He's right about policy and action critiques.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 01:50 PM
Apr 2013

Certainly fair game to point out stuff like calling Nelson Mandela a 'terrorist.'

At the same time, grave dancing is ghoulish.

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
12. It may be ghoulish but it's a long worn tradition
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 02:15 PM
Apr 2013

Humans know when a devil has died and yeah, they dance on the graves of the devils. Think anyone here doesn't still dance on the grave of Reagan? Who here won't dance on the graves of Cheney and Bush if either of them is actually mortal?

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
25. No, but reminding people of the devasting effects and hypocrisy
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:19 PM
Apr 2013

of his actions and policies as the mainstream media wallows in the whitewashing and repeated false mythology might have that effect.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
28. Oh I agree. Criticize his policies, her policies
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:31 PM
Apr 2013

with gusto. No need to pretend they advanced the cause of humanity.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
44. Tell that to the worms that ate his body! n/t
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:26 PM
Apr 2013

And eventually excreted soil, which became vegetation, that was eaten by some food animal.
It all goes round and round and round.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
21. "Respect a family in grief today," coming from the right...
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 02:47 PM
Apr 2013

...just means, "Please give us a head start in spinning Thatcher's life."

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
32. "There is a decent interval though."
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:58 PM
Apr 2013

Wrong. As he says, NOW it the time to review the DAMAGE a public figure has done.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
38. 48 hours = time for the corporate media to start the spin machine and make sure she's beatified.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:13 PM
Apr 2013

Just like they did to Reagan and Nixon.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
33. There is no interval between the death and the revisionism, false mythologizing
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:58 PM
Apr 2013

and misrepresentation, though. And gone unanswered, it becomes assumed truth.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
37. Fuck that shit.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:13 PM
Apr 2013

It's the usual right-wing tactics to stifle people in focusing events.

Right after Sandy Hook and the Aurora shooting, the NRA penisheads all came out and demanded that we "tone things down" to be "respectful".

Now they're demanding we "tone things down" so they can get the spin machine going and beatify her like they did Reagan.

Fuck that shit.

I'M GLAD THAT BITCH IS DEAD!

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
31. Nice how he points out the hypocracy of the Right....
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 03:57 PM
Apr 2013

They're all screaming to think of the grieving family members but were cheering recently over the death of Hugo Chavez without regard to his family.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
39. there's one huge difference though
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:16 PM
Apr 2013

between

a) as Greenwald says "commemorating the bad acts" of a deceased person

and

b) just saying something hateful like "I am glad that evil piece of excrement is dead" or "I am gonna dance/piss on his/her grave".


The first I think is fully justified, whereas the latter, while it may be based on the first, is just spreading hate and shows a lack of class.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
42. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead!
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 04:23 PM
Apr 2013

Which old witch,
Why Mag the Hag, of course!

As posted to my facebook page!

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