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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPlease read report of 2 kids dead in NC at dad's construction site and tell me what you think
this father was building. The reporter here seems reluctant to say, but, it certainly sounds to me like this father was constructing a doomsday shelter. This anti-government obsession being promoted in the GOP is also fueling the gun debate with RWers being told they need military weapons to 'protect' their families and then the weapons end up being used against those families either accidentally or otherwise.
I could be wrong, of course, but, given our political environment I don't think so.
>>>
Lincoln County Sheriff David Carpenter said the two children, whose names have not been released, apparently were playing in the hole late Sunday afternoon while the 7-year-old boys father operated a backhoe nearby. The first 911 call came at 5:07 p.m. from a man identified as Jordan Caldwell, who authorities said Monday morning was the boys father.
The children were in a dug-out portion of the area, Carpenter said.
Initial reports said the excavated area was to be the basement of a house under construction, but authorities said Monday morning they were not sure exactly what was planned for the site. They said it measured 20 by 24 feet and was 24 feet deep. The two children were at the bottom of the hole, near a wall that collapsed. >>>
Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/08/3967795/two-children-killed-at-east-lincoln.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Heck... could have been for a pool.
blm
(112,920 posts).
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)blm
(112,920 posts)and has been promoted through corporate media programming specifically to increase the number of anti-government voters.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Overkill for a tornado shelter. The bunker thing seems plausible.
I guess the father feels bad about digging the kids' tomb, but it's hard to be sympathetic to someone who wouldn't know that kids were around or down in the hole.
Mira
(22,378 posts)This is in my paper this morning. The photo ought to give you some pause.
That ain't no pool.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)and for a 20 x 24 excavation, 24 feet is an unsafe depth to dig without shoring and bracing, even in that nice red soil.
There's no telling why he was digging a hole of those dimensions.
Sad for all involved.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)shoring and bracing would be necessary
Why do I keep seeing Homer Simpson here?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Additional speculation about a protective bunker.
My guess: a double basement, a two-story deep excavation.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)probably couldn't get a permit for it even if he did try.
yeah seems like a two story bunker. That was some hole in the backyard!
Wonder if the neighbors knew what he was up to...
blm
(112,920 posts)for his 24 ft deep bunker is not supposed to be relevant on a political board.
Duh! (they say)
; )
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)a sign of the times.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...and your family.
What's left of it.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)from the construction firms are going to tell anyone where it is. Some peeps put many thousands of dollars into these things, it's an industry.
Preparing for the World's End, Just in Case
Atlas Survival Shelters sells underground bunkers made out of corrugated pipe. Described as 'bigger than a New York apartment,' the bunkers cost $50,000 to $120,000 and can withstand a nuclear bomb...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324296604578179480178344200.html
Just one of many. Read the whole piece, it's big business. Possibly he was getting ready for one of these to be installed, they are brought out on flat bed trucks and lowered in place.
People with money get fancier ones:
http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-profit-mayan-apocalypse-2011-5%3Fop%3D1&usg=__cVrUZvTWyV4iGtfHXZd8HeNQ0XU=&h=300&w=400&sz=51&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=D_ROobD_pgRWrM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&ei=RmFjUbDmH8K0iwKXhoHgDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dunderground%2Bliving%2Bsurvivalist%2Bshelves%26hl%3Den%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&sa=X&ved=0CEgQrQMwDg
Not unlike storm cellars. Here's a home made version, he may have been building one of these:
http://www.survivalcenter.com/budgetundergroundshelter.html
I've seen a lot of pictures of these with all kinds of plans. The biggest problem with this is that they don't really comprehend that they are creating their reality to fail as they cut people off. In a major catastrophe this might help for a while. It's the newest version of a back to the land movement with a twist.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I watch the shows like I watch a train wreck.
And, I'll bet that the more well-equipped units come with a suicide device, a family-kill feature, in case it's "all over".
I feel that it's fed by our having a black man in the whitehouse, none of the preppers I see are minority or mixed-race, none are black.
They claim to fear tsunami's or nuclear attacks, but the details are always about the hoards of citizens that would come after them.
They are afraid of other people, they are xenophobic, they are fucking nuts.
Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #56)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)That hair, that hair cracks me up!
blm
(112,920 posts)Fer chrissakes, how can some DUers be so blind to this?
JVS
(61,935 posts)The I read "Burleson said the sheriffs office will handle the investigation into exactly what happened. That will include determining if there were proper permits for work at the site, he said Monday morning." So I guess we wait to see if there were permits and then we can see if they tell us what he was doing.
No matter what it was, kids shouldn't play near construction sites.
waddirum
(976 posts)but also clearance from utilities like gas, electric, phone, cable, etc. that may have buried lines in proximity to the excavation.
He potentially put the entire neighborhood at risk if he severed a natural gas line.
blm
(112,920 posts)If there was a permit it would seem the reporter and officials would have had plenty of time to note their existence. It's likely they already know, but, out of respect for the family's grief, they would for now (understandably) with-hold that part of the story.
If there is no permit one could surmise that it wasn't obtained because of the RW's exaggerated mistrust of government, as well.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)appleannie1
(5,044 posts)Hole too big and deep for any purpose.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Zoning, distance requirements, set backs etc would have all been on record if it were a for a house....even one he was building for himself.
I don't think this was for a house.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)go down in deep un-reinforced holes in the ground. That's just freaking stupid.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Especially when stupidity fits the data much better.
blm
(112,920 posts)views and using corporate media to do it? I think it's pretty effing stupid to ignore the role of GOP propaganda and RW media in this latest generation of anti-government extremism.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)What an interesting world yours must be.
blm
(112,920 posts)"The reporter here seems reluctant to say, but, it certainly sounds to me like this father was constructing a doomsday shelter. This anti-government obsession being promoted in the GOP is also fueling the gun debate with RWers being told they need military weapons to 'protect' their families and then the weapons end up being used against those families either accidentally or otherwise.
I could be wrong, of course, but, given our political environment I don't think so."
That YOU would avoid noticing doomsday preppers repeat the very anti-government rhetoric that has been ramped up by the GOP in the last few decades is 'interesting' to me, DT.
24 feet deep is a whole lot more than just a 'hole' and if it isn't in your world.....well....like I said.....that's an 'interesting' world YOU live in.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Wow.
Lex
(34,108 posts)Jesus.
blm
(112,920 posts)My, my... feeling a bit scratched today, DT?.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)I don't live in the version of the universe where every action or occurrence can be traced back to the GOP.
blm
(112,920 posts)It wasn't.
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)They were so distraught we hope to be able to talk to them today and come up with some information on that, Carpenter said. Its a very large hole. It would look to be something like that, but I dont know. Were going to find out exactly what his intentions were.
Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/08/3967795/two-children-killed-at-east-lincoln.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
Maybe you need to go a little easy on the outrage.
blm
(112,920 posts)yesterday. That's why I posted about it this morning.
NickB79
(19,114 posts)If you've ever watched the series "Doomsday Preppers" on NatGeo, you'd see lots of people who are definitely NOT the typical anti-government/GOP/gun nut types. People who are prepping for fear of a nuclear reactor meltdown, or a solar flare, or global warming, or peak oil. I can recall one couple that were self-professed hippies, who fortified an old military silo and had an old-fashioned guitar circle sing-a-long with friends on film.
The average hardcore prepper is probably as you described (an anti-government nut), but there are enough who don't fall into that mold that I wouldn't jump to that conclusion without more evidence to support it.
blm
(112,920 posts)how others would read the situation based on the report.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That permit would have required proper shoring of the hole and on-site inspections, which probably would have prevented the collapse.
blm
(112,920 posts).
spanone
(135,637 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)It's negligent to allow children anywhere near something like that construction site.
Trying to politicize this?
Sickening shit of the clueless variety.
blm
(112,920 posts)project that so far, no permit has been produced - a person who would GET a construction permit probably would NOT have allowed kids anywhere near there, so it IS relevant.
Given the political environment we are now living through, it is completely plausible that he was building a bunker without a permit based on his anti-government fears. I am pretty sure that production companies filming 'Doomsday Preppers' have surveyed enough people to know there is a growing market in this area. Looking the other way is absurd.
Pretend away if it makes you feel better, cali.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,273 posts)The same way we "politicize" criticism of idiots who leave guns laying around so they can "protect" their family.
It's negligent to allow children around any construction site, yes.
But a 24 foot hole is WAYYY beyond what some local yokel with a back-hoe should be working on. These "20 foot underground" kits are being marketed to the anti-government kooks as DIY projects.
You can ignore it if you want, but the instant I saw "24 foot hole" I knew what we were dealing with. I've read the sales brochures for the bunker kits.
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)I have had a few interactions with preppers. They are not rational people. Tend to be very anti gov - that could explain the lack of permits. Also makes sense that preppers would not apply for permits because that would mean THEY know your plans. I feel sorry for the kids of preppers.
blm
(112,920 posts)And, YES, I do blame overthetop anti-government rhetoric of the GOP and RW media.
So does Bob Dole and other rational Republicans from yesteryear.
"As Dole sat in his Washington law office in February, still stunned by the outcome, he blamed his own party and suggested a headline: Republican Party closes its doors to make repairs. The GOP, added Dole, one of the partys most revered figures, needs a timeout to tone down the antigovernment rhetoric."
yellowcanine
(35,692 posts)teabagger philosophy of "no one tells me what to do or how to raise my kids." So yes, it is relevant. And anyone who thinks prepping is not tied up with right wing tea bagger philosophy is whistling past the graveyard.
blm
(112,920 posts)situation involving anti-government behavior is just a dumb show of potshots just for the sake of taking potshots.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)blm
(112,920 posts)about this government. it DOES matter.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)There's a simple solution for these doomsday types-wait until they're in their holes and padlock them from the outside.
blm
(112,920 posts)their father wasn't taken in by anti-government propaganda, and THAT was the point to my speculation in the first place.
NickB79
(19,114 posts)Like I said in a different post on this thread, there are lots of prepper types. Some are anti-government, some are prepping for global warming, some for a nuclear war, some for a reactor melt-down, some for a pandemic, some for peak oil, etc.
The anti-government types are probably the most common, but you can't make a blanket statement like you did without more evidence to support it since there are so many types of preppers.
blm
(112,920 posts)I specifically said that it was MY read of the situation based on what was reported. Now that it appears my comprehension skills are still dependable, some of you want to nitpick to make yourselves feel better, I guess. 'I guess" would be MY read of the thread situation. heheh
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)without a permit. But maybe it was going to become his weed growing facilities?
--------------------
Later on Monday, sheriff's deputies removed firearms and the marijuana plant from the mobile home. The 31-year-old father is a felon who is not allowed to have guns. He was convicted in 2003 for possession of a controlled substance with intent to sell.
http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Crews-find-bodies-of-2-NC-children-trapped-in-dirt-4417381.php
blm
(112,920 posts)Thank you, sir.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)bluedigger
(17,077 posts)OSHA excavation safety rules limit excavation walls to 5' in depth without sloping or shoring of some kind. Of course the father wasn't subject to OSHA regs, but anybody who operates a backhoe (more likely a trackhoe due to the depth of excavation) should be aware of them, and why they exist. Not much point in punishing the father, in this case. eta: They weren't both his kids, but cousins - I hope he is prosecuted...
treestar
(82,383 posts)But just learned some stuff from this thread. Hole is very deep, so something is dodgy.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Split level homes could easily have a basement of that size. In splits, the garage is ground level, with basement under the living room/dining/kitchen...bedrooms are over the garage & often extend back some.
We had one of those in KS.
onethatcares
(16,133 posts)he would have needed a heck of a ramp to get the backhoe out on a proper incline.
It's really sad that his kids died, I just couldn't imagine that. Even with the stupidity of doomsday prepping, my heart goes out.
Peace
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)Neighbor Bradley Jones, who works in construction, said there was no structure to support the pits tall dirt walls and that there was some concrete on a ledge on top of the hole.
In recent days, the hole was muddy from the rain. He said he warned his daughter, Chelsea, who babysits for the children, not to go in.
Chelsea said Arwood told her that he was building the structure to protect his family - it was going to be a bunker.
As the dispatcher began encouraging him and with people wailing in the background Arwood began praying.
..
Later on Monday, sheriffs deputies removed firearms and a marijuana plant from Arwoods mobile home. Arwood is a felon who is not allowed to have guns. He was convicted in 2003 for possession of a controlled substance with intent to sell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/television-reports-2-children-trapped-under-home-in-lincoln-county-details-scarce/2013/04/07/fb619cfe-9fec-11e2-bd52-614156372695_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop
blm
(112,920 posts)RW (GOP) propaganda, hopefully, minus the deaths of children and family members of these RW media victims.
malaise
(267,845 posts)or just another prepper.
Ignorance will kill you and yours. I'd have been afraid to have kids playing near digging equipment let alone a massive wall.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)You asked what we think so please do not tell me to unwad my panties or some such garbage.
To make such a groundless leap of logic as hole equals doomsday shelter would be laughable if it were not so obviously based in bigotry and bias.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,273 posts)Lex
(34,108 posts)Besides, 75% of DU is comprised of speculating and theorizing about one thing or another.
http://www.wral.com/investigation-after-2-children-die-in-nc-collapse/12319479/
blm
(112,920 posts)YOU make a "groundless leap of logic" when you assumed my post was based in bigotry and not based on the information that was gleaned in the article.
It's easy to call it just a 'hole' and if it were just a 'hole' I wouldn't have felt there was something more to the story. But, it wasn't just a 'hole' at 24 feet deep now, is it? Especially when anyone can turn on any of these reality networks and see what many people across the country have been doing to prepare for doomsday scenarios, especially amongst the anti-government crowds.
YOU 'think' based on the information in the article that my view was 'pointless', 'childish', 'groundless', and yet it turned out to be correct. So, basically, you have it figured out that your ability to assume is superior to my ability to comprehend.
heheheh