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SmileyRose

(4,854 posts)
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 02:58 PM Apr 2013

Sometimes I think I have it easier than you college people

There have been a lot of threads on the DU lamenting the fact so many college people are stuck taking jobs so far beneath them due to this economy. Some have to do with the economic hardships caused by crushing educational debt versus the income, but most are about the disappointment of being stuck in retail or office jobs instead of something more befitting a college educated person.

I have done a lot of thinking about this. And I do think college people have a disadvantage on the happiness scale right now.

I am not college people. No one in my family is college people - I had hopes but I wasn't smart enough. So I have toiled a lifetime in non-college jobs. I expect to be exploited. I expect to be treated poorly. Like my parents before me, I'm just grateful if my government stops the job creators from taking my labors and leaving me hungry and homeless or dead.


I guess it's about expectations. Me and mine..... we are thrilled to have ANY job. We can't afford to treat any job like it's beneath our expectations. Anything that helps keep me under a roof is the best me and mine have ever hoped for.


So sometimes I think us folks at the bottom have it easier in some ways. Even though it's insanely hard here, every little bit we get from the system is appreciated and does something to improve life. Me and mine don't do much gnashing of teeth over whether a job is demeaning or not..... we are just glad to have one. Any one.

I have 2 hopes for the college folks who find themselves with so much despair over job prospects. One is that things will turn around as soon as possible for you. The second is that this time toiling beneath your expectations is never forgotten. Someday you will have all the reigns of power and when you do, I hope you remember what it's like to live a short while where me and mine live all our lives.







38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sometimes I think I have it easier than you college people (Original Post) SmileyRose Apr 2013 OP
You don't have a college degree but you're a wise person, SmileyRose. n/t pnwmom Apr 2013 #1
+1 LiberalLoner Apr 2013 #27
A lot of "college people" were definitely spoiled during the past 30 years or so. n/t Hoyt Apr 2013 #2
The average attorney is not as well paid as people think. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #30
Tens of millions would be happy with that, which is my point. Hoyt Apr 2013 #33
Very, very true. Although you don't have to be a partner in a prestigious JDPriestly Apr 2013 #34
how many sober attorneys make less than say 50k. Hoyt Apr 2013 #35
Plenty. I have a friend who charges and has charged $50 per hour. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #36
Then she's not working full time, and that is cool. Hoyt Apr 2013 #38
k&r Liberal_in_LA Apr 2013 #3
A lot of the problem the college people have today are their indebtedness for their Cleita Apr 2013 #4
It is about expectations Nikia Apr 2013 #5
Or, speaking of skills, you sometimes get outdated. Cleita Apr 2013 #6
Brilliant! Sekhmets Daughter Apr 2013 #7
I have to agree with that. Cleita Apr 2013 #8
There are times Sekhmets Daughter Apr 2013 #10
Uh, anyone who can write like you do is definitely college material. Warpy Apr 2013 #9
yes SmileyRose Apr 2013 #22
You know more than most college-educated kids today if you know this: JDPriestly Apr 2013 #32
I agree, Warpy. The OP is very, very well written. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #31
What makes you think you're not or weren't smart enough? senseandsensibility Apr 2013 #11
just never quite had enough SmileyRose Apr 2013 #23
That's hard to believe, but it's in the past now. senseandsensibility Apr 2013 #25
Nicely put. Robb Apr 2013 #12
It's up to the college people to see to it that you are not exploited. rrneck Apr 2013 #13
Eloquently written etherealtruth Apr 2013 #14
+1 LiberalLoner Apr 2013 #28
One shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on college Apophis Apr 2013 #15
After seven years after college..... musical_soul Apr 2013 #16
Unless you're certifiably below normal intelligence, you are "smart enough" to have Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #17
Great post! But its less about expectations than it is about $$ and student loans riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #18
Expecting to be treated poorly and exploited does you no good, nor should it be admired. Brickbat Apr 2013 #19
thanks for that reminder SmileyRose Apr 2013 #24
I have run between the raindrops DollarBillHines Apr 2013 #20
I agree - "college" is over rated jimlup Apr 2013 #21
Smiley, you were smart enough Skittles Apr 2013 #26
I'm "college" and have done lots of "non-college" jobs, and every one JDPriestly Apr 2013 #29
some college folks will never have the reigns of power hfojvt Apr 2013 #37
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. A lot of "college people" were definitely spoiled during the past 30 years or so. n/t
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:08 PM
Apr 2013

It's a different world today, and the adjustment is going to be tough for a lot of folks. Although, I'm not too concerned about someone who thought they'd be an attorney (or other professional) in private practice making several hundred thousand a year -- but now find themselves having to take a corporate job at a lot less. That's still a good career/living if one can adjust.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
30. The average attorney is not as well paid as people think.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:03 AM
Apr 2013

The median is $78,580 per year.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2F_Lawyer/Salary

Well above average for all jobs, but not as high as a lot of people think -- not $100,000 or above.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
33. Tens of millions would be happy with that, which is my point.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:35 AM
Apr 2013

You don't have to be a partner in a prestigious firm to enjoy your job and pay.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
34. Very, very true. Although you don't have to be a partner in a prestigious
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:53 AM
Apr 2013

firm to have very stressful work. Being an attorney is extremely stressful. Not as stressful as being a doctor or a dentist though.

Here is why. An attorney holds the financial future or even the personal life of his client in his hands (maybe in his brain and voice would be more accurate). A doctor may be holding the life of his patient in his hands, a dentist the health of his patient in his hands.

People who choose helping professions (and not all attorneys view their work as helping others but many do), are from the get-go compassionate, so failing others is very painful for them.]

I think some of the seeming arrogance of a lot of attorneys is actually a cover-up for the pain of knowing that you will sometimes fail your client. There will be times when you miss something, when you are not smart enough or quick enough or thorough enough. It's painful to let people down. At least it is painful for a caring person to let another person down. And even if an attorney or a doctor or a dentist does his/her very, very best for every client, there will be times when it isn't enough.

I only know of one attorney who claimed to have won every case he tried. Note he used the term "tried." He was a defense attorney for a large chain of stores and he mostly did slip-and-falls. I suspect that he won every case he tried because he settled those he didn't think he could win.

I believe that failure is a part of certain professions, maybe all professions. But it is one thing to fail yourself, and far more stressful to fail others who are relying on you to win for them. Very stressful.

So being an attorney can be wonderful, but also very stressful. And while some attorneys are very well paid, lots of attorneys are not. $70,000 is still well above the average income in the US.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
36. Plenty. I have a friend who charges and has charged $50 per hour.
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 02:08 AM
Apr 2013

That's her rate, and she is extremely sober. A very kind and capable woman. I am proud to say she is my friend.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
4. A lot of the problem the college people have today are their indebtedness for their
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:15 PM
Apr 2013

student loans. So to work at a job that is below their education and skill level makes it harder for them to pay it off. I didn't have that problem because college was pretty much tuition free for me back in the day and I could meet my other expenses with a part time job. I didn't get upset when economic downturns forced me to take a service or retail job in the meantime until I could get a job more suited to my skill and education level. But todays college grads have that debt expense hanging over their heads at all times. They borrowed because they thought an education would help them pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but it has turned out to be another Republican lie.

Nikia

(11,411 posts)
5. It is about expectations
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:20 PM
Apr 2013

Many have grown up with a certain ideal pushed on them: that if they get the right education and other right things that they will be rewarded with the right job. I don't think expectations are limited to college graduates. Some people who have had several years experience in "skilled jobs" suffer when they are laid off and cannot find another good job that makes use of their skills.
Some of these people do end up suffering permanent damage to their self esteem and wouldn't even try to apply to good jobs even if they were advertising hundreds of local openings because they no longer believe that it is possible for them. Not only are their skills and education lost to society and the economy but they also compete with people who never had the right skills to begin with.
I wouldn't sell you and your circle short, there are people who do find better jobs, even without an education. Believing that you are worthy of a better job can be half the battle.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
6. Or, speaking of skills, you sometimes get outdated.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:25 PM
Apr 2013

I have all kinds of skills no one uses anymore, like shorthand for instance and being able to do statistical typing on an IBM Executive typewriter, or use a comptometer or being able to do calculations on a slide rule.

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
7. Brilliant!
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:25 PM
Apr 2013

You are so very wise and this is something that needs to be said. Part of the problem today is that for too many years the 'college people' forgot about those on the bottom. They focused only on improving and enriching their own lives and set about to dismantle the
programs that offered a helping hand up to those below them on the ladder. Some because of their own avarice, some because of indifference....

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
8. I have to agree with that.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:31 PM
Apr 2013

I was always taking extension classes at UCLA to update my accounting and computer skills, so I had to do it at the UCLA Anderson School of Management. I was always in class with what I believe were the nascent Reagan Republicans back then. There wasn't a poor person they couldn't sneer down their noses at. Back then we hadn't entered the era of institutionalized homelessness but I'm sure their votes had a lot to do with what happened, especially bringing the Jarvis amendment to fruition.

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
10. There are times
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:44 PM
Apr 2013

when I wonder...'what were we thinking' to allow it to get this bad? And, if I'm honest I have to admit that for several years I was 'part of the problem, wrapped up with raising 3 kids under the age of 4, in our comfortable upper middle class home. By the time I realized, during Reagan's second term, what they were doing, it had become a runaway train.

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
9. Uh, anyone who can write like you do is definitely college material.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 03:34 PM
Apr 2013

I tutored English at the college level as one of my part time jobs to get through nursing school and I have to say that there is no way the school would have referred you to me. Instead, they'd have steered you into one of the English based majors.

However, you're right about those expectations and feelings of entitlement to the good life because you've managed to run up a lifetime of debt in four years to get a largely meaningless piece of paper. The BA used to be the route into middle management, at the very least. Now you're lucky if it gets you into management of a hole in the wall drug store (one of my jobs without a degree). We've had almost 50 years of degree creep in this country and now the BA is just a glorified high school diploma that assures an employer that the holder can manage to do the work that a high school grad in the 1940s could handle.

The whole thing has gotten completely insane. Schools dumbed down to the point of uselessness once a person has mastered basic reading, colleges teaching what used to be high school material, and jobs that used to be done by a 16 year old dropout now requiring baccalaureate degrees (but still paying roughly the same) have made the whole system impossible for most people to navigate.

I always said being uninsurable removed most of the stress associated with health care: either I had the savings and could afford it or I did without, no phone calls to make and no bureaucrat to be wheedled and no companies to be fought with after the fact. I can see that knowing you're on the bottom of the educational heap can be a comfortable place to be right now--the wages are shit but at least you don't have a mountain of student debt to pay off on them.

So take heart, if the system is ever restored to rationality by socking it to the rich while supporting a large and stable middle class before you're so old all your marbles have fallen out you are college material if you want it and want to learn what they have to teach.

SmileyRose

(4,854 posts)
22. yes
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:32 PM
Apr 2013

there is only so much they can take from me. I'd like to have more but this is what I have. I'm smart enough to know a roof that doesn't leak on a small paid for house in the not so great neighborhood is probably more than many of today's newest college people may ever see.

I thank you for the kind words but it does say something about our education if I am anywhere near what is expected for college. When I left high school in the 70's I was too smart for trade school and not smart enough for public college.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
32. You know more than most college-educated kids today if you know this:
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:07 AM
Apr 2013

a roof that doesn't leak on a small paid for house in the not so great neighborhood is probably more than many of today's newest college people may ever see.

If more people had understood this, they would not have fallen for the banking scam that led to our economic crisis in 2008.

senseandsensibility

(16,713 posts)
11. What makes you think you're not or weren't smart enough?
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:00 PM
Apr 2013

I'm really curious. By the way, I am college educated and for many years couldn't find work that required a degree. I had some menial jobs that paid minimum wage with no benefits. That, and a very modest upbringing have been good preparation for other challenges I have met in life. Doesn't mean I enjoyed those jobs, but they helped make me the good liberal I am today, I think.

SmileyRose

(4,854 posts)
23. just never quite had enough
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:56 PM
Apr 2013

my high school started a version of AP classes in 1967. I tried but was always below the cut off.

I still took the SAT with the support of a favorite teacher. 2 tries and scored too low for the local community college or any of the state schools.

senseandsensibility

(16,713 posts)
25. That's hard to believe, but it's in the past now.
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:33 PM
Apr 2013

Our local community colleges accept all high school graduates, and yours might too. It's never too late, but it is difficult if you're working. Edited to add that I don't find your story hard to believe, just that you couldn't pass the tests. You seem very intelligent and expressive. I just don't think you should let that experience keep you from trying again if you're interested.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
12. Nicely put.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:05 PM
Apr 2013

Long time DUers will recall I have yet to receive a high school diploma. I feel for the college-educated, though. There's a lot of expectation unfairly foisted on them.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
13. It's up to the college people to see to it that you are not exploited.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:15 PM
Apr 2013

And it's up to you to demand that of them. Nobody should have to expect to be treated poorly, and you don't deserve to be treated that way.

Too many college people thought college was just training to get what they want. They were wrong.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
14. Eloquently written
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:26 PM
Apr 2013

The only thing that does not ring true in your essay: I am not college people. No one in my family is college people - I had hopes but I wasn't smart enough.

I have read your posts and responses over the course of the last several years ... there is no possible way you were (are) not "smart enough."

A lot may have come in to play in your decision not to go to college ... your intelligence could not have been one of the road blocks ... no way, no how, huh uh!

 

Apophis

(1,407 posts)
15. One shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars on college
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:30 PM
Apr 2013

only to get a retail job afterwards.

What would be the point of college then?

musical_soul

(775 posts)
16. After seven years after college.....
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

I finally got the full time job with benefits that I can actually do. My jobs before were retail, substitute teaching, convenience stores (very tough due to corporate always sticking it to you and can get dangerous).

I finally have a job in a call center where I get decent pay and benefits. I had other dreams, but at the end of the day, that's what it takes to make me contempt. I don't think I was wanting much.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
17. Unless you're certifiably below normal intelligence, you are "smart enough" to have
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 04:46 PM
Apr 2013

a college education. It just means you would have to work harder and longer to get decent grades, and maybe focus on the easiest degree possible. You could even have just gotten a two-year degree in some practical job area (LPN, radiologist, paralegal, certified legal secretary, or whatever).

The plight of college people right now is temporary. The college degree they got will continue with them the rest of their lives. They will be able to apply for jobs that non-degreed people cannot (some employers use the degree to weed out applicants). Once hired, they will be more easily promoted to positions in the company that require or favor a degree.

Then of course what degree you get has a lot to do with availability of jobs. My sister was unable to finish her degree a few years back because of divorce, but what she did get doesn't help her much because she was majoring in astrology. That's a useless area of study, work-wise.

Finally, there is worth and value in education, even if it doesn't translate into money. It is worth something to study a variety of subjects, open your world, have higher level discussions about various topics, learn things.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
18. Great post! But its less about expectations than it is about $$ and student loans
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 05:29 PM
Apr 2013

The panic is palpable!

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
19. Expecting to be treated poorly and exploited does you no good, nor should it be admired.
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 05:56 PM
Apr 2013

Time was, people without a college education could get a middle-class job through standing up for themselves and collectively bargaining work rules, safety protections, living wages, health insurance and pensions. Expecting to be exploited will get you exactly that -- exploited. And that helps bring down conditions for everyone. Being "thrilled to have any job" means you'll shut up and take what the bosses give you. I will not settle for that, and nor should you, whether you have a college education or not.

SmileyRose

(4,854 posts)
24. thanks for that reminder
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:03 PM
Apr 2013

I have to figure out my finances but I' m working on a plan to tell one particular job creator if he really thinks he can buy labor for my job cheaper then go look someplace else.

DollarBillHines

(1,922 posts)
20. I have run between the raindrops
Sun Apr 7, 2013, 09:19 PM
Apr 2013

I never bothered with any schooling, thinking that anything I learned would be obsolete before my 'career' was over.

So, I lived somewhere between the road and the ditch.

I sleep 'til noon and drink and play blues all night.

Works for me. I have never had a Day Job in my life and I am now 60+ years of age (I will never be old).

That was wonderfully written, SmileyRose, and beautifully stated.

Thank you,
DBH

jimlup

(7,968 posts)
21. I agree - "college" is over rated
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 09:29 AM
Apr 2013

Not that learning is bad but much of college is advanced baby sitting for the middle classes.

I went to college because I wanted to know. I have an advanced degree in science. I never went to school assuming it would provide me with a "career". Perhaps, the idea was built into the track that I was on but by the time I finished tenure track positions in my field were very rare.

I'm lucky because college aligned with my deep curiosity. I was the exception though and not the rule.

Skittles

(152,967 posts)
26. Smiley, you were smart enough
Mon Apr 8, 2013, 10:37 PM
Apr 2013

you would not BELIEVE the idiocy I deal with from college graduates - half of them cannot form a decent sentence.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
29. I'm "college" and have done lots of "non-college" jobs, and every one
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 01:00 AM
Apr 2013

of them taught me something. No job is better than another in terms of opportunity how to be a better person or the other really important things in life.

But if someone has school debts, whether for college or to learn a trade, they need to be able to earn enough to repay them.

It's getting so some young people from poor families or just not-so-rich families have to choose between an education or a family.

That's not good for America. Our children should not have to choose between family or an education.

Thanks for your post. Non-college jobs can be very challenging and rewarding. I've done them.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
37. some college folks will never have the reigns of power
Tue Apr 9, 2013, 02:13 AM
Apr 2013

I never did, after I jumped off the good job train back in 1986, it has been impossible for me to get back on for one reason or other, and spending 7 years self-employed probably did not help.

And, for me at least, it is not just about the job. It's about family, For me, it has been more frustrating not so much being unable to find or get a good job, but being unable to find a mate, a life partner, to have a family. Something lots of poor people have. One of my grade school classmates posted on FB that "grandchildren are one of the greatest things you will ever have" and I said, sadly, or for some people it is "will never have".

p.s. and on the other hand some non-college grads will do well. My current supervisor is a high school drop out. She is going to college, but she got the (semi) good job first, and then went to college. One of the shift supervisors at one plant did not have a college degree (even though the job was supposed to require one). She, also, was made to goto college after getting her good job.

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