Poll: Do you support Amina's goal to prevent anti-women Sharia laws from being adopted in Tunisia?

[stevenleser]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-nisman/tensions-with-tunisias-ji_b_2998955.html

Tensions With Tunisia's Jihadists: Who Will Blink First?

The month of March 2013 has witnessed an increase in tensions between local Tunisian Salafist networks, the newly formed government of P.M. Laarayedh, and the country's secular/liberal societal factions.

On March 26, Ansar al-Sharia in Tunisia (AST) issued a warning on social media towards P.M. Laarayedh, after he condemned Tunisia's Salafist minority as responsible for recent violence in an interview with French media that same day. The post featured a threat to topple the government from Abu Iyad al-Tunisi, a prominent jihadist founder of AST suspected of orchestrating the September 11, 2012 riots at the U.S. Embassy in Tunis. Following those riots, Abu Iyad was targeted for arrest at the al-Fatah Mosque in Tunis, but escaped after his supporters confronted security forces.
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Since 2011, Tunisian jihadist groups, including AST, have directed the majority of their domestic efforts toward charity and social programs, in a likely effort to gain the support of conservative and impoverished communities. These efforts include the establishment of community policing patrols in both suburbs of the capital Tunis and outlying towns. Patrolmen often operate in cells of two and four, openly identifying themselves with bright orange vests. These patrols have helped to protect local businesses from criminal activity, while using foreign-donated funds to distribute food and appliances to impoverished families. They have also been accused of enforcing their own strict version of Islamic law, otherwise known as "morality policing."

Such policing efforts include both rhetoric and attacks against perceived heretical establishments and individuals. Furthermore, the head of the local branch of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice recently called for a Tunisian topless feminist protester to be stoned in accordance with Sharia law. Additional attacks against Sufi and religious minority shrines, secularist/liberal political leaders, media offices, and security forces headquarters have been largely attributed to Salafist militants operating in the capital, as well as in outlying areas.

13 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
	Yes I support Amina\'s efforts to stop regressive and anti-women Sharia laws from being adopted in Tunisia
	13 (100%)
	No, I would like Sharia to be adopted in Tunisia because Amina and her supporters showed their boobs
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[ZombieHorde]

1. I support her goal, but I am uncertain that her tactic is the best way to do it.

I don't consider telling others how to dress or not dress to be my business, whether it be fully nude or full niqab. She is an adult and an individual, and I'm sure she knows better than I what she is doing. I wish her well.

[nomorenomore08]

127. +1

Couldn't have said it better. Thank you.

[pnwmom]

278. But that's exactly what she's saying -- that the powers-that-be shouldn't be able to tell HER

how to dress.

No matter how little she wants to wear. If a man can go topless why can't she?

[ZombieHorde]

288. I think she may be effective alive than dead.

I don't want anymore martyrs.

[hlthe2b]

2. Shouldn't there be a third choice for those who support her goals, if not necessarily

her methods or are concerned that her methods may backfire? Just playing devil's advocate here, but your poll seems rather one-sided.

[stevenleser]

3. I understand your opinion, but I really want to know where people stand given those two choices.

It isn't at all clear given the opposition to Femen shown here lately what some folks would choose given those two choices.

This is what this is about. It's about the real danger of Sharia being adopted in Tunisia and the fact that some renegade groups are already implementing it on the ground via roving paramilitaries.

[JI7]

5. that's like republicans saying you supported Saddam if you opposed war

[stevenleser]

7. I don't see it that way. I didnt ask if you supporter her tactics. I asked if you supporter her goal

your continued reluctance to support what she is fighting against is... interesting.

[pscot]

10. Then why do your graphics emphasize her "tactics"?

You strike me as something other than a simple truth seeker.

[stevenleser]

13. I post an article explaining the problem and that is 80% of my OP but all you see is boobs?

Interesting.

[pscot]

15. You hung 'em out there

and you chide me for noticing? Interesting.

[stevenleser]

17. So boobs are like a red cape for some people and posters are the matadors? No matter what else is

posted, some people are going to go for the red cape and see nothing else?

[pscot]

27. If they weren't, you wouldn't have put them

on display. Well played.

[stevenleser]

33. You are projecting. Most people on DU dont lose their heads when confronted by boobs. They can read

the rest of the OP and get the content despite blurred out boobs being at the bottom of the OP.

The OP is about Amina to include her goals, what she protested about and how she protested and why her protest has generated controversy. The video is appropriate.

[liberal_at_heart]

188. It's like when republicans bring up beastiality whenever they talk about homosexuality.

Whenever liberals talk about how women dress, it always comes down to boobs and sexism. Well the solution to sexism is not to force or even shame women into covering up. That is what religious fundamentalists do, not liberals.

[stevenleser]

254. There is a slut-shaming quality to the objections against Amina and Femen

good point.

[JI7]

16. Boobs was mentioned in one of your poll choices

and that's what you posted.

there are many pictures of women protesting in tunisia and for various rights. but it's interesting this is your focus.

[stevenleser]

18. No, I posted a lot of other material as well. You just focus on the boobs.

I also intentionally chose a video where the boobs are blurred out to minimize the distraction. Apparently that was not enough for some.

[JI7]

19. yeah, and people have said they support the goals but maybe not the tactics

and then you took issue with it .

[JI7]

14. i guess i supported War anytime i criticized Code Pink

[snooper2]

183. you didn't participate in the poll

[JI7]

277. i usually don't participate in polls

[pnwmom]

279. Thanks for adding some badly needed context to the discussion.

This isn't about "European women" telling Muslim women what to do.

It's a group of women, including Muslim women, standing up for themselves.

[JI7]

4. yeah, i have criticized code pink and some other liberal groups here

for their tactics. people didn't start accusing me of opposing the color pink .

[bettyellen]

100. of course there should- as this was exactly what a large portion of DUers have clearly stated.

bullshit flamebait.

[stevenleser]

223. You're saying that 70 DUers have now voted to support "bullshit flamebait" ?

Betty, at what point do you think to yourself, maybe I am wrong here.

Don't misunderstand me, if I am sure I am right about something, I will stand against a million people who disagree with me and tell them to take a long walk off of a short pier. Are you that sure about Amina and Femen being wrong?

[sufrommich]

6. From a Tunisian pro democracy activist:

Protesting an exaggerated statement through a provocative action is wrong. It will result in a backlash. First of all, exhibitionism does not exist in the Muslim world, and a sane woman would think twice before walking down the street in mini skirt. There is a wide gap between that and nudity. Second, not everyone in the region is familiar with concepts such as feminisim or groups like FEMEN, the women’s movement founded in Ukraine in 2008. You have to look into the higher classes of society or among leftist intellectuals to find people who aware of these notions. To many Tunisians, Amina’s gesture is synonymous with mental illness—hence the rumour that spread regarding her incarceration in a psychiatric hospital. Alternatively, radicals stress descriptions of Tunisia’s feminists as morally decadent and as a menace to the society as a whole. Amina gave them a picture to illustrate this message.

A few weeks before elections in 2011, a private TV station opposed to Islamism showed an Iranian movie called Persepolis. The movie depicts the setback that Iranian secularists suffered when the the Islamic Republic was established in 1979. In a short scene, lasting a few seconds, God is depicted talking to a little girl in her bed. Sunni traditions prohibit the portrayal of God in any form, and so Islamists—mainly Salafists and Ennahdha activists—staged demonstrations against the TV station, and secularists in general, accusing them of corrupting Tunisia’s Muslim identity. Days of unrest followed, culminating in an attack on the TV station’s headquarters: the warning that the movie conveyed was not heard. The Islamist victory of October 2011 is partly attributed to this event.

Amina’s photos will be shown to gullible fathers with a warning: “This is where the miscreants are leading us!” Anyone supporting her will be accused of being a Western implant. Misogynists will recall how women enjoyed many rights under the old regime, while other freedoms were crushed. They will link Amina’s actions to that era and give all feminists the same label. They will also highlight that victims of the dictatorship received the little international support, even at the same time as Tunisia was highly regarded by many Western governments for its progressive stance on women’s rights. It will be easy, then, to make parallels with the increasing international pressures on Tunisia’s Islamist government, and the wide support Amina’s cause is gathering globally.

FEMEN in the Muslim world is all that conservative populists need for their propaganda. It is tarnishing the image of feminism and threatening women’s rights in this fragile transitional period. Amina and her ilk should read more about the history and sociology of their region, but most importantly, they should try to understand feminism from a post-colonialist perspective. Feminism contributed to the advance of Western societies in a European context. The equality of men and women is a universal value, but it has to come in the language of the people. It is a local feminism that we need, not an imported one—and Tyler is not even an Arabic name.


http://www.majalla.com/eng/2013/04/article55240155?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Twingly%2FBlogSearchDemocracy+%28twingly+blog+search+democracy%29


We in the West need to stop pretending we know how best to create change in regions we know very little about.

[stevenleser]

9. "Protesting an exaggerated statement through a provocative action is wrong."

[JI7]

12. TUnisia protests have been similar to what you linked to, that is not what the person was referring

to .

[JI7]

11. it's not just the Muslim world, Women here are not taking off their top to oppose all those

anti choice measures the right wing is pushing. considering women here and most in europe don't want to protest that way why do people think that's the most effective way for women in the muslim world ?

and BTW , women HAVE been protesting these fundamentalists attempts to take away their rights for years now. see link below. just about a week ago there were protests against capitalism that were led by women because of the way that system has hurt them especially.

http://www.mintpress.net/protesters-in-tunisia-fight-back-against-salafi-extremists-hijacking-democracy-in-post-arab-spring-middle-east/

[idwiyo]

38. "Some women here", "some women in Europe". The operative word is SOME.

Stop exaggerating please and do speak for yourself, don't presume to speak for ready of the women.
You definitely don't speak for me. And how do you know which one of us he on DU was or wasn't involved in naked protesting?

[JI7]

39. i'm referring to facts, MOST have not protested by taking off their clothes and yelling "fuck the

pope" "fuck mormons" and other things .

[idwiyo]

52. Do you know how "most" of them think? Who elected you a spokesperson for the "most"

women? Do you have any proof (not counting feeble "they didn't take their clothes off&quot that most women do not support FEMEN? No, you don't.

So, stop making unsupported claims unless you can back your assumptions with facts. It makes you look silly and desperate.

[JI7]

53. yeah, just like the teabagger rallies which had 10 or fewer people attending

i can assume most did not support them although the media whores give them a lot of attention.

[idwiyo]

57. Right. Naked women protesting for equality is equivalent of teabaggers rallies. Because YOU

can't see beyond their naked bodies. It's almost like its ALL you can see or why else would you keep talking about it.

Seriously, is nakedness so scary to you? Are you afraid someone might think YOU want or do it to?
Is that it? Must be some reason why you can't stop talking how wrong it is for them to protest naked. Aren't you pro-choice? Or is it "pro-choice as long as its done MY way?

[JI7]

64. which teabaggers protested naked ? my comment referred to turnout of protestors and amount of

support. but one thing teabaggers and femen have in common is opposing islam in itself as something negative.

[idwiyo]

70. You brought teabaggers in, not me. BTW, how many supporters did you mange to gather

at your latest protest? Or is it along the lines of "lurkers support me in e-mail"?



Judging by the number of pictures of NAKED women showing their BOOBIES in support of Amina on FEMEN websites, the number is growing every day.

Even here on DU there are more women, and men, who support FEMEN than there are people who support you.

But at least you could be sure that entire anti-women misogynyst patriarchy stands by you when it comes to this matter. Great company, I say.

[JI7]

72. what a strange post

[idwiyo]

75. What's strange is you bringing naked boobies into almost every post. And making a lot of

unsupported assumptions.

I am still trying to figure out why naked protests bother you so much. Aren't you pro-choice?

[JI7]

80. i brought up Code Pink also, why don't you ask why i take issue with Code pink

i already said i'm referring to effectiveness of protests.

[idwiyo]

284. FEMEN seems to be highly effective. For example you can't stop taking about them. :)

As long as you keep talking about them, there is a chance someone else will hear you and check them. More exposure is always good!

[JI7]

285. if their goal is to get me to talk about them, which is a pretty pathetic goal

[idwiyo]

286. Doubt you are anywhere on their radar but you sure cant stop talking about them. And nudity.

[HiPointDem]

186. I know most women don't support FEMEN because few women have joined femen's protests,

despite the high level of media attention. Not even in the west, where it would be safer.

Their 'topless jihad day' got about 40 people 'all across europe' & the majority of those were the same professional 'protesters' that have been at all the group's other demos.

So in all of europe they got maybe 20 people max to join their jihad.

[polly7]

322. I support the African women standing up to multinationals, but I

can't physically join them either. Do you support them?

From the small sampling here, it seems the vast majority of women do support them. All over the net I've seen blogs and articles with comments and huge support.

[DirkGently]

26. The heckler's veto? Really? Shut up or the idiots will be mad?

Doesn't fly. And Amina's not a "Westerner."

[stevenleser]

29. Said it before, I will say it again. Amina and Femen's detractors don't listen to themselves.

They don't hear the regressive rhetoric they are adopting in their efforts to criticize the showing of boobs.

Your protests must be meek proper displays of lady and gentlemanly virtue, else you might make the wrong people upset. Yes, someone basically just said that to us.

[DirkGently]

36. Whoever is provoked by a picture like this ... needs provoking.

I don't even see how there's a debate. Mooning the camera would actually be an attempt to be insulting or gross, and it wouldn't get an eye bat around here. Breasts provoke only idiots.

[liberal_at_heart]

42. I agree. That is the point of provoking. To make people think and question authority.

[pnwmom]

280. +1. n/t

[idwiyo]

32. Translation: SFU because I don't like what you did. Oh, and BOOBIES!!! WRONG!!!

OK, cool, you found someone out there who happens to agree with you. Well, I support Amina. She lives I Tunisia and if she thinks its the right way to protest then more power to her.

One thing is for certain, there are a hell of a lot of people out there who are chronically obsessed with nakednesss and boobiies. Some of them are on DU. Ironically its not the men I am talking about, because women are the ones who seems to obsess over nudity the most. What gives, ladies?

So yeah, it's all about nudity and desire to control for the outraged ones.

[Summer Hathaway]

98. Presicely.

"There are a hell of a lot of people out there who are chronically obsessed with nakednesss and boobiies. Some of them are on DU. Ironically its not the men I am talking about, because women are the ones who seems to obsess over nudity the most."

I could say I am shocked by the attitude of a certain contingent of women here who obviously have an issue with naked breasts - but given their attitude towards other feminist issues, I am (sadly) not surprised at their reaction.

I do, however, savor the irony of reading the posts of said contingent members. While insisting that men who support Amina's bare-breasted tactics are only interested because naked tits are involved, THEY seem to be the ones talking about tits, boobs, breasts, to the exclusion of what Amina's protest is really all about.

As a woman, I applaud ANY woman willing to do whatever it takes to get the world's attention focused on a worthwhile cause.

[idwiyo]

116. I am seriously concerned for said people. I wonder if its like an extreme case of phobia?

Reminds me of my friend's kid who used to have Ophidiophobia. Poor thing wouldn't even step on the lawn because he was absolutely terrified there might be snakes there. He literally would SEE snakes everywhere. Anything remotely resembling a snake and he would just freeze and scream.

Weirdly he got over it because I had a snake. His desire to impress me and to be just like Auntie Ydwiyo did the trick. I cried when he asked me to hold his hand and walked with me on the lawn (after I checked and told him i could not find any). Took long time but he finally touched my python with one finger and said "It's not slimy, it's just warm!" After that he was fine. Basically he was scared of snakes because he thought they were slimy, cold, and gross. The idea that something so gross might touch him was freaking him out.

Wonder if its something like that with people who have hang ups about nakedness.

[MADem]

162. From a GUY named Youssef, you mean.....

I don't care about his supposedly liberal resume, I can tell you that his mindset about women is that they are only "allowed" to protest in ways that are "acceptable" to men.

The dismissive "Amina and her ILK" remark, and his insistence that Amina isn't a "real" Arab because her patriarchial name is Tyler and not of Arabic origin (all comes from the father in the Arab world--it's how guys like Bandar Bush, the son of a Somali slave and a member of the House of Saud can rise to such great political apppointments), pretty much tells me he likes his feminists to sit down and STFU.

This article is not proof of anything except that sexism exists even among "liberal" Arab males. Surprise, surprise, as Gomer might say.

[opiate69]

168. Heh.. nice catch.

[HiPointDem]

173. This is what makes me wonder if FEMEN aren't provocateurs whose goal *is* to promote backlash,

i.e. to further the goals of the fundies.

That's what their tactics say to me. The same as how, in Paris, they set up their 'world headquarters' in a majority-muslim neighborhood and did naked marches there.

It smacks of provocateurism.

There's also the little matter of where FEMEN gets the money to send its leadership all around europe, to pay the rent on its headquarters, and how its leaders get their living (as they don't seem to have other sources of income beyond their naked activism).

Check out the photos of FEMEN's various protests. You'll see the same faces, over and over. Here they are in switzerland, here they are in paris, here they are in milan. now I hear they're going to africa. who's paying?

How much popular support does FEMEN actually have? Not much would be my guess.

[msanthrope]

329. Thanks for posting the mansplaining. Why did you think this man had any authority? nt

[stevenleser]

20. The answer is up thread. This odd focus on blurred out boobs and ignoring the rest of my OP

Remarkably really.

[JI7]

23. first response "i support her goal" but questioned the tactic

why do you ignore people saying they support the goal ?

[JI7]

35. no it's not, women go topless at beaches around the world everyday, i'm not condemning them

i'm not condemning women who go topless in movies.

i'm referring to the protest tactic just as i criticized Code Pink .

[liberal_at_heart]

60. so it is okay to go topless for entertainment but not to make a political statement?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

[JI7]

73. how doesn't it make sense ? with political statements there is a goal to get change

so i would want to do it in a way where it would be effective which is why i criticize code pink . but i odn't criticize the people who wear pink just becuase they like it or at a party or whatever else.

[idwiyo]

81. "I would want it" - the it is, right there. My way or no way. Are you pro-choice?

[JI7]

85. since when does being pro choice mean you can't have opinions ?

[idwiyo]

93. Pro-choice means Her Body, Her Choice. PERIOD. Your opinion on what should and shouldn't

be done with to someone else body should be kept to yourself, unless that someone else asks for your advice. Otherwise it's hypocrisy. You "support" women's right to go naked if its done one your conditions (ea on the beach). You'll turn against those same women if they dare to protest naked.
Sorry to tell you but that's as far from pro-choice as it can get.

In your case its not just opinion. It's an overwhelming desire to CONTROL what someone else does with their own bodies, as evidenced by your posts.

[JI7]

95. i would prefer not to see naked guys at a lot of places either, and i criticized Duggars for having

kids .

[idwiyo]

99. And?

[JI7]

103. so i like to have opinions

[liberal_at_heart]

84. How is showing your breasts to protest being forced to cover your entire body ineffective?

I would say that is a very effective protest. It gets straight to the point about what they are protesting about. They are saying that they shouldn't be forced to cover their bodies and that they should have the freedom to do what they wish with their own bodies. How is that not effective?

[JI7]

88. they don't just do that they say anti islam statements also

i don't think that's very effective.

also women , gays, minorities etc got rights without using that method .

[liberal_at_heart]

90. Have you ever been to a gay rally? Some gays are very overtly sexual and even go naked during gay

rallies. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[JI7]

92. most gays don't get naked and that's not how gay rights have been gained

[liberal_at_heart]

102. I have been to gay rallies and yes there are gays that get naked. I did not say all or even most,

but there are gays that do get naked during gay rallies. My daughter is a young adult and bisexual. She is also an artist. Most of her drawings are about the naked female form. She finds the female form very attractive. There is nothing wrong with that. You clearly have an issue with nudity. I'm sorry. The human body is nothing to be ashamed of. It's only shameful when we let others make us feel shameful. Religion and sexism have made us feel shame about our bodies which nature gave us. Nature seemed perfectly happy to gradually recede the hair on our bodies, and endow us with reproductive parts that both attract our mates and help us produce and feed children.

[JI7]

105. i never said it was shameful , i never said wearing pink was shameful either

still gays did not gain rights by getting naked . and that is what i am talking about here.

[liberal_at_heart]

113. The reason they are getting naked is because it is the Sharia law that wants to force them

to cover their bodies. That is why getting naked is an effective protest. If the law said you cannot eat meat, and someone posted a video of themselves eating meat that would be an effective protest. In this case, getting naked is 100% effective.

[JI7]

120. there is no shariah law in Europe

[liberal_at_heart]

125. The woman who started this is from Tunisia.

[HiPointDem]

201. there's no sharia law in tunisia, either, and hasn't been for about 60 years. Tunisian women

had abortion rights before americans did. they got the vote in the 50s. There are more women in Tunisia's equivalent of Congress than there is in the US.

[idwiyo]

126. Amina. Tunisia. Muslim country. Conservatives. Want Sharia law. Amina protests. FEMEN

supports Amina. Amina disappears. FEMEN stage protest in support of Amina. Naked protest.

Got it?

[JI7]

129. so wouldn't it be more effective to go to Tunisia ?

[idwiyo]

289. Well, if you think it would why don't you do just that? What is it with constant desire to tell

other people where and how they should protest? Why not to lead by example?
Please, do. I'll be happy to support you. Am sure other will too. You can post pictures from Tunisia right here on DU.

[JI7]

291. ok, send me money for a ticket and place to stay while i'm there

[idwiyo]

293. Please, contact Skinner for permission to start donation thread. I will gladly donate and I am sure

others here will do to. I wish I had enough money to just buy you a ticket but I am not that rich.
You'll have to do a fundraising, unfortunately. But I am sure it's not going to stop you!

You go, girl!

[HiPointDem]

205. she hasn't disappeared. at least not according to her female lawyer, an internationally-known

feminist human rights lawyer. who's tunisian.

it's FEMEN who keeps saying she's disappeared.

[idwiyo]

287. You can take "her" lawyer's word. I'll wait till I hear from Amina herself.

According to you her life is not in danger, according to this lawyer she is perfectly safe and sound at home. And yet there wasn't a single word from Amina herself.

So, pardon me but I'll reserve my judgement until she speaks for herself.

BTW, did her layer actually see her? Or was it just a phone conversation? You seems to know a lot more than anyone else about this, am wondering if you saw/read something more than vague statements reprinted in most news sources.

[HiPointDem]

298. you do that little thing.

[idwiyo]

301. So, all that you have is a word of her lawyer. You don't even now if her lawyer actually

saw her client? Damn, I really hoped you could post some more info on this subject. Would be nice to have some solid proof that Amina IS actually safe and sound.

Oh well.

[kwassa]

132. I think it is more they have issues about showing off their bodies.

Very confused issues.

I can't imagine a less effective form of protest.

[stevenleser]

139. Less effective? A dozen or so threads in DU with hundreds of responses? Worldwide attention?

I hope every protest I am ever involved in is similarly "less effective"

[JI7]

143. DU threads are not a sign of effective protest, on DU many threads pop up when Palin

says something.

anyways most of these threads are the same few people posting many times.

[stevenleser]

148. By all means, ignore the fact that I noted there is worldwide attention. Selectively

ignoring facts gives so much extra weight to your arguments.

[kwassa]

151. But why worldwide attention? Naked boobies! No other reason. Look at the boobies!!!

The biggest shitfest on DU is utterly meaningless in the real world, by the way. Hundreds of threads will have zero effect on Tunisia.

What kind of message is "Fuck your morals" anyways? As a slogan, can it possibly be more disrespectful of someone else?

If someone said that to me, I would simply see an example of someone that hated me, and come across as having no morals themselves. I am not talking about sexual morals, but the idea of moral behavior in a much greater sense.

Is this a gesture that will change the minds of Sharia supporters, or will it simply inflame them?

[stevenleser]

160. LOL, oh by all means, tell all protesters who might offend or be in your face they need to tone it

down. Like the below folks, because god knows, if the LGBT community had only been quiet and respectful, everything good would have happened for them:

[kwassa]

169. Having been to several Gay Day parades......

And I'm talking much earlier days, late 70s, early 80s, pre-AIDS, I saw such things as expressions of their sexuality, not as attempts to persuade straights to their cause. And you haven't lived until you've seen Halloween on Little Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood.

That wasn't the point of this behavior. They were out to have fun.

I don't think you have a clue about this.

[MADem]

172. They aren't interested in changing the minds of Sharia supporters--their minds will never be changed

What they want to do is raise awareness amongst people who are NOT supporters of Sharia law.

[kwassa]

177. How does "Fuck Your Morals" raise anyone's awareness of anything?

[liberal_at_heart]

179. I hear "Fuck your morals" posted against conservative Christianity on this board all

the time. the only reason people are against this is because they have an issue with nudity.

[kwassa]

187. Show me a link to that assertion.

I've never seen that anywhere on this site.

as to my issues with nudity, I used to belong to a clothing optional resort. I also worked as a nude model for art classes at one point.

[liberal_at_heart]

191. then this shouldn't be a problem with you.

What would you have done if someone had told you what you were doing was wrong? Would you have cared? There are people who would condemn you and shame you for what you did. You did what you thought was right and natural for you. Well, she is doing the same thing. There is nothing wrong with what she is doing just as there was nothing wrong with what you did.

[kwassa]

195. It is not about being nude. It has never been about being nude.

it is about the political issues involved, and how to best influence them.

Being naked has very little to do with most of these issues, and the blowback is intense. It is simply very bad strategy.

[liberal_at_heart]

197. When you are being told you must cover you body then yes nudity is a very good form of protest.

[kwassa]

204. They don't have to cover their bodies in Tunisia. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

[opiate69]

212. ...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWSW6bAMLZhQ4_cBUmTjmtRNTv_g?docId=CNG.8717d4d14cf2a53356bd89267ef74352.211

TUNIS — Several thousand men and women demonstrated outside the Tunisian parliament on Friday to demand the inclusion of Islamic law in the north African country's future constitution.
"The people want the application of God's sharia", "Our Koran is our constitution", "No constitution without sharia," and "Tunisia is neither secular nor scientific, it is an Islamic state", cried the protesters, drawn mainly from the Islamist Salafist movement.
Some men climbed on the roof of the building and unfurled a banner that read: "The people belong to God."
Several women sported the niqab, or full-face veils.
Tunisia's moderate Islamist leaders, who took power following last year's ouster of strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali after a popular uprising, are under pressure from a radical Muslim fringe.
The ultra-conservative Salafists have in recent months demanded full-face veils for female university students, castigated a TV channel for an allegedly blasphemous film and beaten up journalists at a protest.
"We are here today to peacefully demand the application of sharia in the new constitution. We will not impose anything by force on the Tunisian people, we just want that the people are convinced of the principles," said Marwan, a 24-year-old trader.
An engineer, who refused to give his name, added: "A Muslim should live under the tenets of Islamic law. The secularists would have one believe that Islam chops off the hands of thieves but... one must study Islam. The West has failed."
Tunisia adopted a provisional constitution in December and is currently drafting a new one which is due to be completed around the middle of next year.

[kwassa]

224. Is Sharia the current law of Tunisia? No.

Call back when it is.

[opiate69]

233. Well..

if protesters like Amina listened to *edited* like yourself, you can bet on that call. Fortunately, these women don't give a flying fuck what you think, and are attempting to stave off the disaster that would be sharia law by raising awareness, and they appear to be doing one hell of a job of it. I imagine protesting would be a damn sight tougher for them if they just waited until the resident contingent of finger-waggers told them, "hey, you guys are being repressed by the religious patriarchy! Get out there and protest!"

[riderinthestorm]

262. So the time to object is AFTER the constitution is ratified??!! Really??!

No one is allowed to express their opinion until the Islamist government ratifies their bogus document? Which has been heavily pressured by the Salafist Gulf states??



Amina is taking action NOW because women's rights are in jeopardy of being lost within days.

[stevenleser]

218. YET. And that YET has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-nisman/tensions-with-tunisias-ji_b_2998955.html

[MADem]

202. It is a statement of utter contempt for a system of laws that keep women barefoot, pregnant,

under-educated, with zero control over their bodies, and covered head to foot in heavy fabric that turns into a moveable steam bath in the summer heat.

I get it. I will wager that plenty of women who live in the region and who are existing only through the grace and favor of a male who puts them down and holds them back get it, too.

[liberal_at_heart]

175. the only people making it about boobs are the ones against it. The ones who support it

know that it is about making a statement they they are in control of their bodies, not men who make laws.

[kwassa]

180. You are so wrong. They are simply showing their boobs to get media attention,

and everyone who looks at this story knows that.

[idwiyo]

295. What do you think going to change minds of Sharia supporters? Do tell!

[liberal_at_heart]

176. I disagree. I think it is very effective and I think the people objecting are the ones with the

issues of women showing their bodies.

[kwassa]

182. Femen is a freak sideshow.

It has little to do with any effective protest movement.

I notice that they are virtually all young and cute, and many are so slim as to have almost no breasts at all.

And I like looking at naked women.

[liberal_at_heart]

192. so what? Young people enjoy their sexuality. I did when I was young. My daughter is young and she

enjoys her sexuality. My god. Are we turning into right wing conservative Christians on this board? Never mind. I'm done. I'm proud of all feminists whether they are simply getting up and going to school under the threat of violence or letting people know they will not be told to cover their bodies by getting naked. I will not judge any of them. I am just glad that no matter what anybody says we all have the freedom to do as we choose no matter what anybody else thinks. We are all free.

[kwassa]

198. What does enjoying sexuality have to do with protesting Vladmir Putin?

Is he anti-sex or something?

Most of Femen's protests are nonsensical.

[liberal_at_heart]

217. You were the one who said they were young and cut and like to show off their bodies.

So what if they do? Being free to do so is in fact a protest against the very religious and political fundamentalism they are fighting against.

[kwassa]

219. No, they are specifically protesting against Vladmir Putin.

and a number of other subjects that have nothing to do with sexuality.

Why do they do this if there is not the remotest connection?

I don't know why I bother asking. You haven't a clue as to why.

[liberal_at_heart]

229. I have better things to do. It's date night with my husband.

Women have the freedom to do whatever they so chose with their bodies. Period and thank goodness.

[kwassa]

230. I knew you couldn't rebut.

[idwiyo]

296. Ahh, finally! You have a problem with FEMEN because "they are virtually all young and cute,

And many are so slim as to have almost no breasts at all"? Why didn't you say so in the first place?
Would you like them more if they were more mature and had larger boobies? Is that it?



BTW, am just quoting what you said.

Damn, this is starting to resemble a Twilight Zone.

[idwiyo]

292. You just can't stop talking about their bodies. It's that nekkidness thing again, isn't it?

You just can't figure out why would someone protest naked. There MUST be some nefarious reason behind it because you can't imagine how there isn't. Therefore there must be something. damn it!

[kwassa]

330. You are the one obsessed with nakedness.

I am far more interested in the effectiveness of protest.

[idwiyo]

331. looks like its VERY effective. You can@t stop talking about it. :)

[HiPointDem]

196. Amina is tunisian. Tunisian women don't have to cover their entire bodies. They don't have to

cover their heads, even.

Amina was on national tv in jeans and a t-shirt, with no bra.

[opiate69]

208. Yet. Being the key word, and all..

Since there is a movement underway to impose such restrictions. Given the chaotic state of the new government, and the influence theocrats are trying to assert, it seems like a distinct possibility.

[HiPointDem]

209. Yes, there's a movement underway. It's funded by US allies. Maybe protesting *them* would

be more effective.

[opiate69]

214. Easy for you and I to say, sitting here in the U.S..

Maybe not so easy for a woman in a North African country which has just gone through a revolution.

[HiPointDem]

235. easy for FEMEN, who's not in tunisia. and the 'revolution' was supposedly for democracy, n'est pas?

[opiate69]

240. So democracy is fine, even if it results in (admittedly worst case theoreticizing) another Taliban?

And yes.. easy for FEMEN, who is not in Tunisia, to utilize the powerful Western media to raise awareness of the situation.

[HiPointDem]

244. lol. it's clear from these threads that awareness has not been raised much, since most of the

posters apparently thought tunisia had sharia law until i did a thread on it.

It would be easy for FEMEN to publicize protest the gulf states' funding of muslim fundies -- if they wanted to. They don't.

It would be easy for all the brave feminists on this thread to publicize and protest that funding & US complicity with it. They're not interested in that.

Those actions would be a lot more effective than boobie protests, which in my opinion *aid* the fundies & are designed to.

Oh well.

[opiate69]

253. Can't say as I saw that thread... but I knew Tunisia wasn't a Sharia nation..

but, then, I read... Can't speak for anyone else.

[idwiyo]

258. You actually believe Amina's protest was fake and was designed to help the fundies?

Did I read it correctly?

[riderinthestorm]

264. There have been a slew of theads about the Islamist influence in the Arab Spring

movements. I've participated in NUMEROUS threads on this myself.

So here we have it on DU for sure but its been well played in the MSM as well where the Arab Spring's real agenda as an Arab Chill takeover by Salafi funded Gulf state provocateurs has been exposed over and over.

FEMEN is a young (only 5 years old) organization whose primary focus has been on the sex trade, prostitution and patriarchy in religious institutions towards women. And NOW you expect they should also have been foreign policy experts about the Gulf states' fundie agenda??

If there's any confusion about whether Tunisia HAD sharia or is being pressured to include it in their constitution (that's yet to be ratified) would be an easy mistake. Whatever Tunisia was in the past is NOTHING like what it is today and anyone trying to extrapolate events on the ground from what it was a year ago is speaking from ignorance at best.

[HiPointDem]

272. you don't know that it's *nothing* like that today. in fact tunisian women have not been silenced,

and they haven't been veiled or confined to their homes. All the articles below are from after the 2011 'revolution' to the present.

You haven't heard about *these* TUNISIAN WOMEN, who look a hell of a lot more effective and powerful than femen booby protesters.


Tunisian women protest to demand equality



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19253289


Tunisia: Thousands rally for women's rights




Tunisian women protest inequality bill labeling them 'complementary' to men



http://rt.com/news/tunisia-women-rights-rally-609/


Tunisians protest over charges against woman allegedly raped by police




Tunisians protest Islamism, demand tolerance




Tunisians protest against ruling Islamists




Tunisia Moves to Contain Fallout After (Leftist) Opposition Figure Is Assassinated




Tunisians protest the replacement of the national flag






A Tunisian woman holds a sign reading "Together for Equality" during a protest calling for the respect of women's rights in front of the headquarters of the National Constituent Assembly last year.




Women, Free Speech, and the Tunisian Constitution




Child rape protesters call on Tunisian minister to quit

Protesters on Monday demanded the resignation of Tunisia's minister for women's affairs, Sihem Badi, accusing her of defending a children's nursery where a three-year-old girl was raped.




Hundreds of Tunisians demand resignation of new PM Larayadh

Hundreds of people demonstrate in Tunis to demand the resignation of the new Prime Minister Ali Larayadh and the arrest of the killers of opposition leader Chokri Belaid. They protested against Ennahdha and demanded the fall of his regime.













http://www.demotix.com/news/1823992/hundreds-tunisians-demand-resignation-new-pm-larayadh#media-1823849

That was February 2013.

[riderinthestorm]

275. I support ALL Tunisia feminist protest actions! You clearly do not.

You want to censor them. You want to only accept those that you approve. I applaud every picture you put up and more, which includes Amina's.

Fuck your morals. And that's not a paraphrase from Amina - its a direct quote.

[HiPointDem]

276. lol. You haven't *heard* anything about these protest actions, it's all boobies here at DU.

[smirkymonkey]

308. Wow! Brave women!

Great photos. Thanks!

[smirkymonkey]

310. Wow! Brave women!

Great Photos. Thanks!

[bettyellen]

267. true, you educated her most ardent supporters at DU . Boy did they not appreciate that!

for some reason, none of them seemed to be reading the articles- which were largely about how controversial, and how unsuccessful, these Femen protests have been in the past.

[MADem]

211. Women didn't have to cover their entire bodies or heads in Iran in 1978.They did in 1979, though. nt

[HiPointDem]

239. yes, they did. and as they chose the ayatollah for their leader, that was what they chose.

a lot of them lived to regret it, too bad.

another interesting tale of intrigue and big-power politics.

[MADem]

265. I beg to differ--I left Iran in 1979. Very few wore chadors or even hijab in the larger cities.

The exceptions were holy cites like Qum and Meshed. It sure as hell wasn't "forced" on anyone to wear chador. Women protested for MORE rights in 79--the Khomeini crew gave them a load of bullshit and many bought it. They've had over thirty years to mourn the rights they used to have.

The representations in this video are accurate, even if you do not approve of Shah's regime. There was a middle class and this is what they looked like:

This is Iran today:

[HiPointDem]

269. I was actually dating an iranian student involved in the protests during the revolution, so i'm not

so ignorant as you imagine.

my meaning is that in supporting a fundamentalist cleric as leader of the revolution, people were in effect making a choice (though i realize that support wasn't universal).

Nevertheless:

Khomeini returned in triumph to Iran, welcomed by a joyous crowd of up to five million people, estimated in at least six million by ABC News reporter Peter Jennings, who was reporting the event from Tehran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeni#Supreme_leader_of_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

There is no such figure in tunisia, & ennahada is reportedly already losing support, partly because of the economy and partly because of their feints in the direction of extremism.

[MADem]

273. I left AFTER Khomeini arrived home. I saw the Shah leave with his little cask of dirt

on Iran Air, and I watched Khomeini arrive on Air France.

I had plenty of time to see the shit as it hurtled towards the fan. I also saw a lot of people executed by hanging--still a favorite technique of the regime.

You do realize that Islamists are increasing their hold on power in Tunisia? Or maybe you don't?

http://womensenews.org/story/the-world/130403/islamic-extremists-alarm-secular-women-in-tunisia#.UWDqnJOG2So

Tensions are rising between secular Tunisian women and political Islam. "There is no room for the opposition and women to participate in building the country we want," says one critic.

http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/tunisia-burqa-bikini-480398

Lina Ben, a blogger, spoke to a small group of people away from the crowd saying that “Tunisia has always been an advanced country in the Arab world when it comes to women’s rights, but now unfortunately our rights are threatened. Before the revolution we used to ask for more rights, for total equality, but now we’re just trying to preserve and keep the rights we already have.”

[HiPointDem]

299. so what? the fact is that khomeni was initially very popular & a symbol of the rev. i don't know

why people would think they were getting something other than a fundie: his beliefs were known.

[MADem]

302. He was popular for about ten minutes--he very quickly consolidated power and started murdering

people left and right. Anyone who openly opposed him ended up dead. It was a vicious, violent and frightening time. Women knew that they'd get the worst of it, because Khomeini was always opposed to equal rights for women--it's why women took to the streets early on. The exodus of the middle class started happening as a consequence of the revolution. Parts of Texas and Los Angeles and Maryland and elsewhere weren't Little Teherans before the shah fell--those people are here because they got the hell out.

Many people foolishly believed that Khomeini's goal was just to overthrow the shah, and let Iranians choose their own leaders. Nothing could be further from the truth. Once he got his claws on power, he hung on and ran it all. The very poor and religious and uneducated thought he was the bee's knees, because they thought they'd get a good deal when the Islamists came to power--turns out, they were right. They became members of the neighborhood militias, paid enforcers who would run around ratting on their neighbors for infractions against Islam.


I do not want to see Tunisia take that direction, OR Egypt, for that matter.

[HiPointDem]

303. it may be that it was only 10 minutes -- *after* he assumed power. but during the revolutionary

period, he was a symbol of the rev.

yes, many people were foolish. it should have been clear that a fundie cleric wants fundamentalism.

[MADem]

306. Shah was ill. Things were happening well before he left.

We lived for nearly a year with curfews--you had to be home before dark or the army--which was on every major street and patrolling constantly--would shoot you. They turned off the electricity every night when the BBC world service would broadcast the news. They also jammed the radio signals, though sometimes you could hear what was said if you used headphones and listened very carefully.

The anger at the crackdowns is what caused a lot of people to just want the damn shah gone and people did not think that Khomeini would stay in power. They thought that he would come, kick the shah out, and then go to Qom and be a theological leader, not hand-pick the leaders and murder anyone who got in his way. And he had plenty of followers who were saying just those sorts of things to people who were expressing concerns, as a way to shut them up so they could pull off their coup without too much fuss.

[idwiyo]

77. Translation: Nakkid is OK when, and where "I" say it OK. Otherwise it's WRONG.

[kwassa]

137. No. Despite the endless repetition of this idea in these hundreds of posts .....

Those of us who criticize this tactic think it will backfire and be counter-productive, and we aren't criticizing nudity, but the way it is done in this specific instance.

Of course, this is ignored and you and others go on your merry way. Again. And again.

[idwiyo]

147. You keep talking about Boobies. And Nudity. Again, and again, and again. Their tactics work

because it gets them coverage. People SEE what is WRITTEN on their naked bodies. I know it is hard for you to believe but a hell of a lot of people do see beyond their boobies. Kind of hard to ignore an image of a naked woman with "freedom for women" written on her chest dragged casually like a piece of meat by a police officer. Those images kind of burn themselves into one's memory. I am not talking about myself, I am talking about people I know. Men. Co-workers, friends. They saw it on Internet and they are troubled and shocked. They didn't think about it before, they do now.

If it makes just one more man to step in and stop another men from abusing a woman, than FEMEN won.

YMMV

[kwassa]

156. Oh, please. That image of that woman is so manipulative.

It seems to portray a situation that probably isn't true.

Photography can tell lies, you know. Just because this woman struck an attitude of anguish and apparent pain before the camera may not mean anything other than she is a good actress. That policeman may have merely been moving her out of the way because she was blocking a road. As someone pointed out in another thread, policemen dragged Femen protesters out of a church, only to let them continue their topless protest outside

I say this as someone who has been doing photography for 40 years and has worked in the motion picture industry. A photograph is simply a moment out of time, and it may represent the truth of the ongoing situation, or it may represent the opposite, or somewhere in between.

[idwiyo]

199. Oh my... You cant stand it that she did get her message across. It pisses you off.

Must be horrible to feel that way.

BTW, of course that image is highly manipulative, it has to be. Its an image of a woman protesting for freedom, dragged away by big burly man (police in this case, and that makes it even more potent) like a piece of trash. It is an image of what was happening at that exact moment. It will be remembered. Everything else you say about it is irrelevant.

Solders Painting Peace by Banksy is a work of fiction. Does it matter? It gets the message across, and no one cares it never happened in real life. I am sure you know perfectly well what I am talking about.



PS. I could never guess that photography can tell lies. Thank you for telling me.

[kwassa]

216. But if her message is a lie, what value does it have? None. And you don't care.

BTW, of course that image is highly manipulative, it has to be. Its an image of a woman protesting for freedom, dragged away by big burly man (police in this case, and that makes it even more potent) like a piece of trash. It is an image of what was happening at that exact moment. It will be remembered. Everything else you say about it is irrelevant.

You agree that it is manipulation, and you don't care that it is manipulation. The naked women, in collusion with the photographer, is creating an image that is false, but says the message that you want to hear. And you don't care that it is not true.

[stevenleser]

220. LOL. "Her message is confused" "Her message is a lie" "She isn't Tunisian enough" "She should tone

it down" "Her supporters are Eurocentric and should shut up" "Protests should be more dignified" "She and her supporters objectified themselves"

How many more reasons are you going to make up and throw at the wall to see if they stick?

[kwassa]

226. All those reasons stick. Every last one of them.

All valid objections.

[opiate69]

237. Only in your mind, dearie.

[kwassa]

246. I still await a logical rebuttal of any of them from you.

tick tick tick tick tick ...

[stevenleser]

238. .

[kwassa]

248. When you have a response with content, please post it.

[stevenleser]

250. Regardless of what I do or say, you will make up a new charge against Amina and Femen.

You are so upset with them bearing their breasts you cannot seem to help yourself.

[kwassa]

256. You just don't have an argument. Not my problem.

[idwiyo]

251. Actually it's you who is talking about collusion with photographer, about image been false, about

creating fake images, etc.

Thank you for quoting me, BTW.

I agreed that image is highly manipulative. It has to be to make sure that its remembered. It does manipulates viewers emotions, but isn't it how you get your message across? You have to engage the viewer and that message does exactly that. If it doesnt strike a chord, why would it be remembered? Don't see anything objectionable there.
The police officer did casually drag her behind like an inanimate object, trash, piece of meat. He didn't have to, nobody forced him to, he just did. By doing it he reaffirmed on his own free will the message she was trying to get across.

Everything else you said is irrelevant.

[kwassa]

261. You think there is a valid purpose for a faked photo. This is dishonest.

It is ok to make a false depiction in order to have a memorable picture. It is o.k. to lie.

So, the ends justifies the means? No honesty is required, if the cause is good?

I would point out that you and I looked at the same image and came away with very different emotional responses to the image. You are claiming a universal impression and reaction to this photo, but I would point out that the response to this photo and other Femen photos has been very different among people of the same political persuasion, as shown in these long and heated threads on the topic right here on DU.

Many of us can see it for what it is: cheap manipulation.

[idwiyo]

268. No, YOU think it's a faked photo. And I already told you it's irrelevant what you think.

Unless of course you can prove its a fake. I am sure you have the evidence to reaffirm your claim.

The majority of people who keep blasting away at FEMEN seems to have a big big problem with nakedness and exposed breasts. And just can't stop talking about it.

One person doesn't seem to care about nakedness and seems to think that Amina's protest was fake. Or something like it.

You seems to think that one of pictures of FEMEN protest in Paris was fake and staged in collusion with photographer (in front of whoever else was there). Not sure where you stand on nakedness issue.

Every single one of you believes that you know better than FEMEN what FEMEN should be doing but don't seem to be doing anything yourself besides typing furiously and posting on DU.

And overwhelming majority of you keep bringing naked boobies In almost every damn post you do.

No wonder you all think that FEMEN tactics are cheap manipulation.

Projection, projection...

[polly7]

321. Mission Accomplished!

They got the world's attention.

[idwiyo]

323. You would think feminists would use the oprtunity to get their message across while media is paying

attention? Nah, lets have a shit flinging fest! Weeeee! Nudity! BAD! I'd never show MY bresties! Burka is a CHOICE, respect it!

[idwiyo]

48. I am seriously thinking it is some kind of obsession with nakedness. Otherwise, why concentrate on

it so much, almost to the exclusion of everything else. It's kind of scary.

[stevenleser]

56. It IS scary. We have feminists unable to express support for this woman because she showed her

boobs, and she is fighting against perhaps the most anti-women laws and anti-women form of government currently on the planet. And they have used every excuse imaginable to bash the feminists who supported her.

Many of these excuses are imperialism, racism, jingoism, not protesting 'nicely' enough, objectifying themselves for men's benefit, etc.

[kwassa]

236. No, they expressed support for the issue, just not her tactic.

Too subtle a difference for you?

[LadyHawkAZ]

46. Jury went 2-4 to leave this post

I just thought you might enjoy knowing that.

[liberal_at_heart]

51. exactly. Women are suppose to have the freedom to do what they want with their bodies. I don't like

it when the left ends up making the same argument the right does. What's next? Should we shame women who show off their legs too? Maybe we should do what the Taliban does and have women cover their entire bodies so men can't get aroused.

[Luminous Animal]

58. Well, Femen is anti-porn and anti-prostitution, so they don't agree with you.

[idwiyo]

61. They don't agree with you, that's for sure. They also don't agree with forcing women to do what

someone else thinks they should be doing.

Don't for a second think they protest against porn and prostitution for the same reason YOU do.

They obviously don't have any hang ups about nakedness.

[stevenleser]

62. Interesting point, but you are also slightly wrong.

While I support Femen generally, I disagree with their position on porn and prostitution, but let's make clear their position on those things. They do not protest against women's right to do those things. They protest against demand. They protest sporting events that seem to be magnets for people seeking sexual services. They protest prominent individuals who have been found to be patronizing prostitutes.

They do not protest prostitutes or sex workers.

[idwiyo]

66. +1

[JI7]

68. protesting Sex Work is how they started

[idwiyo]

71. Repeating the same BS over and over agin is not going no make it so. Really, do go and check

What is it they are protesting about. It's definitely not about sex workers. You wish it were but it isn't.

Sorry.

[JI7]

78. really ? opposing sex work is not about the sex workers ?

[stevenleser]

82. Feigning this level of ignorance does not do you credit. Really. nt

[idwiyo]

83. Am sorry to tell you, but no. Not if one is pro-choice. There is a difference, really.

It would help of you could actually READ their messages in native language. You'll see what it is they are protesting against.

Thankfully they are nothing like some of the "feminists" out there who hate sex workers as much as they hate menz and patriarchy. And nudity.

[JI7]

91. so why do they oppose sex work ?

[idwiyo]

96. Again, they don't. Go read what is written on their bodies. Try to read the native language too.

Hint: protesting against prostitution does NOT equals to protesting against sex workers. I know its a difficult concept to comprehend for some people.

For example some feminists seems to have a specific problem with pornography, prostitution and sex workers. As in all 3 are icky and just plain wrong.

Some feminists don't have a problem with pornography and sex workers as long as its done by consenting adults and no one is forced into anything.

[JI7]

109. so why are they opposed to prostitution ?

[idwiyo]

118. Go back and read some more. You are not going to believe anything I say anyway. Go, read, think.

You'll get it.

[JI7]

123. why not tell me and post links , or at least explain it

you seem to have no trouble accusing me of other things. but a simple answer to where Femen stands on an issue troubles you ?

[idwiyo]

134. It troubles you, not me. Start with looking at the pictures. Find ones with Cyrillic on them.

Translate Russian to English, make sure you look for all available meaning of the word. Think about it. Think some more. You'll get it.

Me telling you what they do and don't oppose is not accomplishing anything. You have to figure it for yourself.

Example: Russian language has the same word for verbs "nail" and "abuse". Abuse to the point where one doesn't have any hope left that it will ever get better, one KNOWS it will only get worse. That will help you to understand a picture of one of the FEMEN members where she poses with a hummer in her hand. Hummer is also happens to be one tool almost every family has in the house. And a handy choice of weapon to use by abuser.

[stevenleser]

115. That person knows full well what you are saying. They are feigning ignorance and playing games

and it is all pretty discrediting to them generally. It's still amazing to me that because of nudity they are this invested in not supporting Amina and Femen.

[JI7]

121. i haven't done anything to support Code Pink either , does that mean i supported the war in IRaq

and other things they protest against ?

[idwiyo]

122. I know :) I am just trying to be an optimist and give them a chance to evolve. Anything possible.

Barack Obama evolved and accepted concept of gay marriage, this person might decide to go read some more and finally realise that FEMEN are not protesting against sex workers...

At least I hope they do.

[JI7]

124. so Femen does not oppose prostitution ?

[idwiyo]

128. Keep reading, you are not there yet. :)

[JI7]

130. i didn't find anything , why don't you give a link, you seem to love posting accusations

but one question about their position and you give a look it up type answer.

[idwiyo]

141. Opposition to turning Ukraine into international bordello does not equal opposition to sex workers.

Go to Google Image, search for FEMEN, Kiev. FEMEN, football. You will get a lot of pictures. Look at what is written on their bodies. If you see Cyrillic, translate it. Think about it. You'll get it.

[JI7]

178. no, still don't see what you are trying to say

they are opposed to sex work are they not ?

[bettyellen]

260. seems like it's a NIMBY issue- they don;t want too much sex work in their back yard...

more like a quality of life issue, like their local protests for better heating and public toilets.

who do the people on this thread think they are kidding when 90% of the stuff written about the group is about 1) their boobs as attention seeking devices and 2) their fuzzy random goals and messages 3) their lack of success. Same as we discuss here.

[idwiyo]

297. Keep reading. I am not here to do your work for you.

[Buzz Clik]

21. Other: we interfere in other countries' business far too much.

[stevenleser]

25. Tunisia is Amina's country. nt

[DirkGently]

22. Well of course. And screw the "tone" attack on "how she said it "(nt).

[backscatter712]

149. Amen! Fuck the tone-trolling!

It's nothing but the same right-wing authoritarian bullshit.

[opiate69]

31. Holy shit! Uncle Leo!

[Go Vols]

43. lol

I thought the same.

[JI7]

45. who here said he is defending women and opposing patriachy ?

next you are going to say we are glad Rick Warren's son is dead because we don't like Rick WArren ?

[JI7]

112. is that guy a patriarchy battler ?

[backscatter712]

150. I sincerely hope that guy got his ass kicked, because he severely needs a beating. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

152. No shit.

[Rex]

30. I support the feminist movement.

In whatever form it manifests itself.

[maddezmom]

34. +1000

[liberal_at_heart]

40. we're way too prudish when it comes to nudity in this country.

Sometimes I think the left sounds an awful like the right when it comes to women showing their body. I absolutely support her protest and the way she did it.

[boston bean]

41. I think all religion is patriarchal

and infringes on womens rights, every where in the world.

I don't really care how 12 women decide to protest.

What I can't stand is men making it all about boobs. And if you don't think that happens, well then just don't freaking respond to me, cause I won't be answering.

[Go Vols]

44. Lots of women

seem to be quite focused on the boobs too.

[winter is coming]

50. Bogus choices.

"No, I would like Sharia to be adopted in Tunisia because Amina and her supporters showed their boobs" is not the opposite of "Yes I support Amina's efforts to stop regressive and anti-women Sharia laws from being adopted in Tunisia".

It's possible to support efforts to prevent anti-woman laws from being adopted in Tunisia and yet think Amina's method of protest is either inappropriate or ineffective.

[stevenleser]

54. I think we can see from the emerging poll results how bogus DUers think the choices are. nt

[winter is coming]

55. How many are even bothering to read the second choice?

I don't have a beef with Amina's choice of protest method, but if I did, I wouldn't choose "No" because I don't agree with it. I chose "neither" because the poll's badly constructed, which is what I do any time a poll is bogus.

[stevenleser]

59. The poll is more than a poll on the specifics. It's a test of what is important to DUers.

Is the nudity so offensive to you that you, as a liberal and/or a feminist, cannot express support and put your name down for this woman in her fight against one of the most regressive, reactionary and misogynistic forms of government on the planet?

Your choice is clear.

[winter is coming]

63. Nudity's not offensive to me. Piss-poor logic is. n/t

[stevenleser]

65. Your actions are drowning out your words here. nt

[winter is coming]

69. ROFL! Go back and read some of the threads, and see if you can find ANY

indication that I disapprove of Amina's tactics. I don't.

What I do disapprove of and despise is people constructing "polls" in such a way that they're meant to push an agenda instead of honestly measuring opinion. There's no reason to believe that anyone on DU approves of the enactment of sharia law, yet you've equated anything less than full-throated support of Amina as support of sharia law. That's dishonest. It's a typical "you're for us or against us" tactic, and any time I see that employed I'm not going to buy into that bullshit. If you'd allowed for a third option, "don't support Amina's protest but oppose sharia law", I would have chosen option 1, "support Amina's protest", without a second thought.

[stevenleser]

74. LOL, Do you understand what a proper poll is?

So, have you have objected to other DU polls that did not appropriately sample for race, religion, and other sampling and coverage bias? (Here is a hint, that is ALL of them)

You objected to other DU polls because proper testing wasn't done beforehand with a sample group to ensure the wording was completely unbiased? (Hint: That's all of them too)

And that is just the beginning of things you need to consider to conduct the best possible poll. And that is not possible to do with the mechanisms available on DU. It's an internet poll that is doomed to be unscientific out of the gate.

[winter is coming]

87. Duh. You don't have the means to do that aspect of polling properly.

It is within your power, however, to structure the questions in a less biased way.

[stevenleser]

89. Let's parse what has evolved to be your position

You acknowledge that no matter what one's efforts are in creating a DU poll, the results will not be anywhere near scientifically accurate or unbiased, because we lack the mechanisms to do so...

...but you want me to change my poll to be less biased. Except...

...that I have also told you there is a specific purpose behind the wording of the poll.

I have an idea. Why don't you make your own poll that is worded exactly how you want to word it?

[winter is coming]

94. I could. And so could the other people in this thread who find your choices bogus.

Or you could change your poll:

1) Support Amina's efforts and oppose sharia law
2) Oppose sharia law, not sure if Amina's efforts will help with that
3) Oppose sharia law, but don't support Amina's efforts (whether or not they might work)
4) Support sharia law

That would give a better idea of where DUers stand, but apparently it wouldn't yield the answer you're fishing for.

[stevenleser]

106. I'm happy with my poll. You can create whatever poll you want to create. nt

[Luminous Animal]

67. I support feminism and feminists in Tunisia.

Like these women...Iqbal Al-Gharbi, Munjiyah Al-Sawaihi, Raja bin Salama, Samia
Labidi, Fawzia Zouari.

This is a great book, by the way. You might want to check it out:

Muslim Women Reformers

This wide-ranging survey of Muslim women reformers not only concentrates on the Middle East but also on Europe and North America, and author Ida Lichter uncovers some significant emerging trends. For example, she notes that the majority of Muslim feminists would like to see reform contained within Islam. Many criticize their patriarchal culture for suppressing egalitarian views they believe the Koran expresses, and in rallies and even on government-policed Internet blogs, they advocate for a reinterpretation of the holy text. Some demand changes to insidious shari'ah-based laws. Others say that women will never achieve equal treatment under religiously inspired authoritarian ordinances and so they campaign openly for major political and educational reforms.

Extensively documented and deeply absorbing, this vibrant collection of inspiring women demonstrates a groundswell of grassroots change bubbling up from every corner of the Muslim world with the potential to bring even the most conservative sectors of Islam into the twenty-first century.

http://www.prometheusbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1911&zenid=862mlf0ah7rl1s3vr30tgdkiq7

[quinnox]

76. the only ones who oppose this are right wing religious fundies, fake feminists,

and people who still haven't got over the "nudity = bad" teachings of their childhoods, period, end of discussion.

[kwassa]

142. Just because you say so?

The opposing viewpoint has been clearly stated many, many times in these threads, and you choose to ignore it. Can't help you with that.

[snooper2]

190. some opposing viewpoints are better left ignored

[kwassa]

200. especially when you have no counter-argument

[snooper2]

207. you are correct, I have no counter-argument for people on a random message board

who complain about protesters not protesting "correctly"

[kwassa]

232. which is why you found it so necessary to respond.

Makes sense.

Somewhere.

[snooper2]

243. likewise LOL,

I'm just hangin for a bit till I go out and dick around with the camber on my truck. responding to a post in the intertubes takes seconds. Not like a whole lot of energy is being utilized. Posting on the Intertubes may be the laziest activity in the world, next to praying LOL



On the other hand...

This takes energy----

[backscatter712]

146. A-fucking-men. The tone-trolls can suck it! n/t

[JI7]

189. and yet you complained when people criticized the Pope/vatican

[TimberValley]

79. This is an absurdly loaded question.

You seriously think this is an objectively and unbiasedly worded poll?

[stevenleser]

86. See my #59 and my #74 for answers to that. nt

[Scootaloo]

108. It's par for the course...

[opiate69]

111. Ahh.. but, does a true feminist take sugar on her porridge??

[stevenleser]

117. Except... that Femen and Amina are second wavers. Nice try though. nt

[opiate69]

119. And that's probably the most ironic thing about this whole issue

(which is admittedly rife with all kinds of ironies)

[Scootaloo]

138. Interesting. So by our previous discussions on the subject...

You regard them as irrelevant man-hating barbarians who should be ignored in total.

Good thing they have their tops off, else you would never give them a second glance. Now they've got you staring.

[stevenleser]

140. Nope. I disagree with them about porn and prostitution as I disagree with all second wavers on

those subjects. But on other feminist topics, and there are a lot of them, I have no disagreement with second wavers.

[Scootaloo]

161. Like I said; so long as they have their breasts out, they have your attention

[stevenleser]

163. Nope. Just like I have supported 2nd wavers here I disagreed with on many occasions. And I can

assure you, I have never seen their boobs.

Logic isn't your strong suit is it?

[Scootaloo]

166. Well, that runs contrary to my expeirence with you.

Maybe it's just that I avoided Meta like the plague and so missed all the cool kids' posts.

[dipsydoodle]

317. Cool kids ?

As Skinner said elsewhere "shutting it down wasn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater : there was no baby - just bathwater.

[Catherina]

97. As a Feminist, of course I do!

The alternative is unthinkable. Unless you want me to run around all day, like a headless chicken, creating havoc over words like "bitch" amd "media*whore*".

Of course I support her. She's my sister. My real sister.

[randome]

101. Maybe a better poll would be...

Do you support the right of women to be topless in public?

OTOH, maybe guys (like me) shouldn't even weigh in on issues like this. Reading DU lately, I think I have 'boob fatigue'.

(Yes, that's a double entendre.)

[Scootaloo]

104. I voted yes. But your second option is frankly stupid beyond words.

No, I would like Sharia to be adopted in Tunisia because Amina and her supporters showed their boobs

One, I doubt anyone on DU is going to support "Sharia Law," and on the wild chance they do, it's certainly not going to be because this lady bared her breasts. What, like "Well, I was against it, but then I saw a bared boob, and now there needs ot be religious law in place!"

[stevenleser]

110. You are one of the few who has opposed Femen who has voted 'Yes'

The second poll choice is intentionally ridiculous. The secondary point of the poll is whether feminism and liberalism/progressivism are more important to you than your dislike of nudity.

Despite your dislike of the tactic, you overcame that to express support for this woman's goals. I was very interested to see if anyone would do that.

You could have voted 'Other', by the way.

[Scootaloo]

135. I don't "oppose Femen," Steve

I think the patronizing "we need to save them from themselves!" attitude presented towards Muslim women is insulting and counter-productive. As if they are stupid beasts incapable of thinking or knowing what's good for themselves, in need of a benevolent and enlightened white western hand to show them the true way.

I don't even "dislike the tactic." It has effective uses. I'm just not sure that it's being used effectively in this case.

1) Baring your breasts on a Barcelona college campus isn't going to do anything for a woman in Saudi Arabia. Breasts do not have intercontinental liberation rays that are blocked by cotton. While maybe your heart is in the right place, it's just not going to help much.

2) The "movement" seems to be heavily reliant on conventionally-attractive younger women to spread the message. This makes it look much more like a PETA-style "get on camera" tactic, more than any sort of popular movement with broad support and meaningful goals. Of course appearances can be deceiving, but if the movement is trying to grow solidarity with women in the middle east, maybe a realization that chadors are not always filed by hidden pinup models is in order.

3) Speaking of that solidarity, the majority of middle eastern women are conservative about nudity. You can huff and puff about whether this is a rightly-held belief of theirs or not, it doesn't matter; it's what they believe. If FEMEN or other groups want to connect with these women, then actively being hostile to them is not a great way to do it. There's a real "our way or the highway" approach on display, where the only "valid" feminists in this particular discussion are the ones stripping down for the camera and anyone else is - as you put it, "advocating Sharia because they hate boobs."

4) Finally, I'm not convinced that showing misogynistic men one's breasts is going to do much to make them reconsider their position. In fact they likely see it as a reward for and confirmation of their beliefs.

So it's not an opposition to FEMEN, and certainly not ot nudity. It's a questioning of whether what they are doing is effective, and whether their primary method might actually be counter-productive for their stated goal.

Basically, just ask yourself if this ad makes you want to stop eating beef:

or whether it's simply an attempt to use the female body as ad space

[kwassa]

144. Great post.

Nice summing up of the issues.

[stevenleser]

154. The part about it being factually wrong obviously doesn't concern you. Amina is Tunisian.

but by all means, keep celebrating an obviously factually wrong post.

[kwassa]

158. Tyler is one of those traditional Tunisian names, isn't it?

Got the explanation for that? I have yet to hear it explained.

No one here said that Amina was NOT Tunisian, so your complaint makes no sense of any kind.

[opiate69]

164. It very well could be... your inability to think so is dangerously close to bigotry actually..

n 1869, Tunisia declared itself bankrupt and an international financial commission took control over its economy. In 1881, using the pretext of a Tunisian incursion into Algeria, the French invaded with an army of about 36,000 and forced the Bey to agree to the terms of the 1881 Treaty of Bardo (Al Qasr as Sa'id).[38] With this treaty, Tunisia was officially made a French protectorate, over the objections of Italy. Under French colonization, European settlements in the country were actively encouraged; the number of French colonists grew from 34,000 in 1906 to 144,000 in 1945. In 1910 there were 105,000 Italians in Tunisia.[39]
In 1942–1943, Tunisia was the scene of the Tunisia Campaign, a series of battles between the Axis and Allied forces. The battle opened with initial success by the German and Italian forces, but the massive supply and numerical superiority of the Allies led to the Axis's surrender on May 13, 1943.[40][41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia#French_Tunisia
Lots and lots of history of Tunisia being occupied by forces with less "African" or whatever sounding names.

[kwassa]

174. Make Up A Fact Time!

You have no idea why her last name is Tyler. Is she the love child of Steven Tyler?

Psssst. Tyler isn't a French name, either. Or Italian. Just thought you would like to know.

[opiate69]

185. I would never steal your claim to fame.

In 1942–1943, Tunisia was the scene of the Tunisia Campaign, a series of battles between the Axis and Allied forces. The battle opened with initial success by the German and Italian forces, but the massive supply and numerical superiority of the Allies led to the Axis's surrender on May 13, 1943.[40][41]

Now.. I'm well aware of the fact that the surname Tyler is of English origin... care to remind me which countries made up the Allied forces in WWII?
Or maybe you can explain how a man born in Liberia, from Liberian parents had the surname Taylor?

[kwassa]

193. You have no idea why this Tunisian woman is named Tyler, do you?

You simply speculate, without any basis in fact. Good luck with that.

I can explain how someone named Taylor would be born in Liberia.

Liberia was settled by repatriated American slaves. It was an early back-to-Africa movement, which is why the capital is Monrovia, named after James Monroe. About 20% of the members of the Episcopal church I attend are Liberian, by the way, immigrants who fled Charles Taylor's mess and the civil war there. They have gone and come back again. Would you like me to introduce you?

Now, explain, if you can, why Amina's last name is Tyler. Give me specific facts about her background.

[opiate69]

194. It's been a few years since I got involved with the religion group wars...

I see you're every bit as insufferable as ever.
Simply put, I have plenty of ideas as to why this Tunisian woman is named Tyler. You, on the other hand, seem to have on idea why that would be the case, and therein lies the bigotry.
And, just for fun..

Tyler
Recorded in the spellings of Tyler, Tiler and Tylor, this interesting surname is of Anglo-Saxon and French origins.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Tyler#ixzz2Pjx3ZtxW

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Tyler

[kwassa]

221. You have no facts as to why this woman is named Tyler. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

And the reason you find me insufferable now is the same reason you found me insufferable then.

You can't rebut my argument with facts.

[opiate69]

225. No.. I have no facts to prove your despicable accusation concerning her identity as the lie

I am sure it is. But I will take my deductive reasoning over your foul innuendo every. fucking. day. of. the. week.

[kwassa]

228. Thank you for admitting your lack of factual information on this topic.

Confession is good for the soul.

[MADem]

311. Well, according to the article posted upthread, "Tyler" is Amina's NICKNAME.

Maybe her friends thought she looked like Liv, or Stephen...or Toby, for all we know.

Nickname. Not her patronymic.

Amina “Tyler”, as she is nicknamed, says that she intended to protest the oppression of women in Tunisia. This has been a recurrent sentiment since the rise of the Islamists, and it is in part well-founded: a virulent campaign is targeting feminist associations and politically active women. Calls to impose headscarves are getting louder, and the oriental niqab, unnoticeable previously, has become a frequent feature of the country’s streets.

[kwassa]

327. Read further in the article

In fact, Tunisian women enjoy some of the most progressive legal protections in the Muslim world: polygamy is banned, girls are technically independent when they come of age, and women can ask for divorce. Former first lady Leila Trabelsi was even expected to succeed Ben Ali, if the uprisings had not brought the couple down

I would point out that there is no explanation for the statement that Tyler is a nickname. Why would a last name be a nickname?

[MADem]

328. I read that article four times--the first two times, the "nickname" stuff

wasn't even IN there.

The blogger--and that's all he is, here, a blogger, not a full-fledged journalist-- went back in and edited, sloppily, apparently.

Amina's actual last name is not known. Good thing.

[stevenleser]

215. So you want to change this to whether Amina is 'Tunisian enough' to protest in Tunisia.

You're throwing yet another idea at the wall that you hope will provide a good reason to discredit her.

[kwassa]

245. Amina is copying Femen tactics from the Ukraine, rather than Tunisian protest tactics.

The fact that her last name is Tyler suggests she has an American or English father, which would put quite a twist on this story, and might show a different cultural sensibility about nudity than is prevalent among most Tunisians.

Of course, this is speculation on my part, but what other reason would she have to have this last name?

Truth of the matter is that we know virtually nothing about her at all.

I am not attempting to make a personal attack on her; I think this tactic will backfire in achieving the goal she wishes to achieve. That is all. I find Femen far more trivial.

[stevenleser]

247. So, with absence of knowledge, you make up a new charge of cultural jingoism and add a bizarre

additional accusation that she is "importing European protest techniques" and that is 'a bad thing'

Wow.

[opiate69]

252. I know, right?? I mean...

Tyler
Recorded in the spellings of Tyler, Tiler and Tylor, this interesting surname is of Anglo-Saxon and French origins.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Tyler#ixzz2Pjx3ZtxW

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Tyler

[kwassa]

255. The cultural jingoism is obvious, and much discussed here. Tyler's story is not.

We all have an absence of knowledge about Amina Tyler.

I am not making a bizarre accusation. She is importing European protest techniques. That is a fact. As to whether that is good or bad is in the mind of the observer. To my mind, it is bad idea, somewhat because they are European, but mostly because they are stupid.

Please be responsible for your own projections.

[stevenleser]

257. "The cultural jingoism is obvious". No it isn't. You pulled it out of thin air.

It's like calling someone protesting in the US whose name is Sally Kwassa not "American" enough to protest here.

The accusation says a lot more about the accuser than the accused.

[kwassa]

263. The cultural jingoism I am referring to has nothing to do with Tyler's name. Its name is Femen.

Many have posted extensively, particularly Luminous Animal, about Muslim feminist activists and what they have done and achieved, as well as resentment by many Muslim women towards Tyler and Femen.

Femen, and many of the posters here, know little of the internal politics of Tunisia. The idea that European feminists know better than Tunisian feminists what is best for Tunisia is nothing if not a colonialist attitude. Pure white European and American arrogance.

[stevenleser]

283. Amina is Tunisian and she formed her own branch of Femen and protested the way she wanted to protest

You are spinning this as cultural jingoism as one of your many and flailing attempts to discredit her.

[MADem]

290. Why don't you do the explaining? Do you know for certain that her name is not a pseudonym?

People DO use pseudonyms on the internet, after all.

I find your suggestion that she is "insufficiently Tunisian" -- and thus, has no right to comment--very curious. Everything I've read about her indicates that she is, indeed, Tunisian. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.

[kwassa]

324. I did the explaining. You don't accept it. Find out something.

[opiate69]

325. Oh, wise one?

May I direct your attention here?

[MADem]

326. According to the article cited in this thread, it's a nickname. So your explanation was wrong. nt

[stevenleser]

153. Amina is Tunisian, lives there and she started Femen Tunisia. Your characterization is wrong.

But by all means, this throwing every possible justification at this to hide the fact that we are upset at the showing of boobs continues to be entertaining.

[stevenleser]

167. LOL, any attack from you I wear as a badge of honor. nt

[Scootaloo]

171. Okay.

So long as you carefully avoid those points I raised, I'm sure you'll be fine.

[etherealtruth]

131. I support her goals ...

... and I support her intelligence enough to believe she knows the form of protest is right for her!

[Initech]

133. Anything that supports jihadists will take society backwards.

Religious law and fundamentalism is the antithesis of progress.

[liberal_at_heart]

184. It seems we have a secular form of fundamentalism here in the US when it comes to nudity.

I hear all the time on this board that women should have the freedom to do what they want with their bodies except when they have a problem with it. It doesn't matter if a feminist or anybody else has a problem with it. Just like it doesn't matter when conservative Christians have a problem with it. Every woman can do whatever they want with their bodies. Period.

[nomorenomore08]

136. No matter what people say, it sure as hell *looks* like both "sides" freaking out over nudity.

Really shows you how neurotic we all are.

[backscatter712]

145. I support Amina Tyler's goal, and I support her tactics.

Being nice doesn't get you traction. It gets you ignored.

It's time for the full broadside of Andy Kaufman tactics.

When the authoritarians are screaming bloody murder, in this case, literally, that means what she's doing and what FEMEN's doing is working.

Before we could have the present situation where the GLBT community is on the cusp of getting marriage rights, they had to have Stonewall. In other words, the GLBT community rioted, punched cops in the face, and caused fucking mayhem in the streets. They had to go out in drag, scream in people's faces, get the fundies going apeshit, because nothing else brings attention to their issues.

Don't tell activists they have to be nice. Be nice, or what? The assholes that are already disrespecting them, dismissing them and ignoring them might get upset? Sounds to me like Amina Tyler and FEMEN have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[stevenleser]

155. Very well said. Comments by some do remind me of objections to gay pride parades

"It's just going to upset people" and "the tactics are all wrong".

As Femen would say "!@#$ that" !

[backscatter712]

159. Yep. In this protest, pissing people off is the goal.

You don't win by being nice, and if you ask nicely for basic civil rights, you'll be dismissed and ignored. And in the press, the rule is "If it bleeds, it leads", which means you have to basically troll the entire nation, the entire religion, or the entire planet.

The tone-trolls will tell us that the authoritarians will only listen to us if we're nice and respectful to them, even though the last six hundred times we tried that, they smirked, dismissed and ignored.

Nope. The only way forward is through confrontation, and by forcing a response.

[HiPointDem]

165. where did she say her goal is to prevent the adoption of sharia law? and furthermore, if indeed

that *is* her goal, her tactics seem more likely to drum up support for sharia law.

[backscatter712]

203. Where she lives, Sharia law's likely to be forced on her whether she shows her boobs or not.

I'll say it again, there's a place for the Andy Kaufman tactics.

Read from the Gospel of Alinsky - he was the true master of driving authority figures into slitting their own wrists.

[HiPointDem]

206. Tunisia hasn't had sharia law for 60 years.

[backscatter712]

210. Then why's she protesting?

There's a lot of Muslims in Tunisia who read from their book of fairy tales and then want to deprive her of her civil liberties. And they're going to the point of death threats, getting the government and law enforcement to arrest, "disappear", prosecute, torture, or kill her.

[Luminous Animal]

222. The fundamentalist can't get the government to do that...

because the laws in Tunisia are secular.
Clerics can call for her lashing or stoning until they are blue in the face (they've been threatening feminists in Tunisia with beheadings for years) but unless it is the fundies who kindnap her and do it themselves, it's not going to happen.

[backscatter712]

227. The fundies very well might.

And just to throw another example in the mix, Bangladesh has no laws against atheism, yet several atheist bloggers were censored, arrested, jailed, possibly tortured, and likely to be prosecuted for "insulting Islam." This is because the government's appeasing an angry mob of fundies demanding their execution for the crime of declaring their deity doesn't actually exist.

Just because civil rights laws are on the books doesn't mean these people are in no danger.

[Luminous Animal]

234. Freedom and equality for women are written into the constitution.

The government has said nothing in regards to Amina. A cleric, the equivalent to our Pat Robertson, called for her punishment. And that is that. The government has not once showed and inkling to prosecute and behead any of the other leading Tunisian feminist that fundy clerics want to see dead.

I believe that she should fear independent action - just as all feminists have had to fear it for many years.

[riderinthestorm]

259. Nope. The new constitution hasn't been voted on yet so everything's in limbo

And the Islamists are putting hard core pressure on the transitional government to enact draconian anti-women measures into the new constitution.

The drafting committee actually suspended a vote on the constitution for 6 months back in October which has only served to ramp up the social chaos.

Tunisia's Islamist party Ennahda won the interim elections and picked a hardliner Islamist minister to shepherd the final draft with enormous pressure from the Salafi Gulf States.

This is a severely shorthand version of what's happening in Tunisia to give some context to Amina's protest. I hope you know all this already because your ignorance seems pretty scary.

Her action's taking place in the midst of huge social upheaval as Islamist forces with enormous influence are working overtime to deprive women of their rights in this country. Now. As we speak. Women in Tunisia can't afford to wait for "proper" protests. Its imperative they get their message out asap. Amina's action was part of that.

Whatever Tunisia was in the past is NOTHING like what it is today.

[HiPointDem]

231. Good question. I'm not sure how the OP got 'she's protesting sharia law' from the limited

information available to him, three internet pictures from someone called "Amina Tyler," one saying 'fuck your morals" (in english, strangely enough: who's the target audience?) with her flipping the bird with two hands (not a native arab gesture), one saying "woman revolt" (again in english), and the last one (taken after the first two) saying 'my body is my own and not the source of anyone's honor", finally in arabic.

This amina tyler was on Tunisian national TV wearing jeans and a t-shirt with no bra prior to the brouhaha.

The only person noted in the press to have made 'death threats' is a regional leader of a minor religious faction funded by US allies in the Gulf States. The faction was legalized after Tunisia's supposed 'democracy revolution' in 2011, to which the US took a public 'hands-off' posture.

Now the US is actually in bed with the same people, as the salafist/wahabist clerics in Tunisia are recruiting fighters to overthrow Assad in Syria while the US is helping train and arm the same movement. Funny, that.

Funny that the outcome of arab 'democracy' movements supported by the US is inevitably fundamentalism.

and interestingly, some of the loudest promoters of femen here are also some of the loudest promoters of the syrian 'rebellion'.

funny, that.

[Luminous Animal]

241. When she contacted Femen and asked how she could join, they told her

to write messages in both English and Arabic. Thus, the English.

[HiPointDem]

242. The first messages were in english. only the last (which came later) was in arabic. it suggests

to me that the audience was the western (or 'westernized,' i.e. arab elites) world, not the arab world.

[MADem]

249. The national religion is Islam. A non-Muslim cannot be President. Government officials must

follow Islamic teachings in the execution of their duties. That's not de facto sharia law to you?

It's in the Tunisian Constitution, which starts out ...In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate .....

This constitution direct the government's representatives

• to remain faithful to the teachings of Islam, to the unity of the Greater Maghreb, to its membership of the Arab community, and to cooperation with the peoples who struggle to achieve justice and liberty;

Article 1
Tunisia is a free, independent and sovereign state. Its religion is Islam, its language is Arabic and its type of government is the Republic

Article 38
The President of the Republic is the Head of State. His religion shall be Islam.


Article 40
May stand as a candidate for the presidency of the republic any Tunisian who has exclusively the Tunisian nationality and not possessing any other nationality, who is Muslim, and whose father, mother, and paternal and maternal grandfathers and grandmothers are all of Tunisian nationality...

http://confinder.richmond.edu/admin/docs/Tunisiaconstitution.pdf

[HiPointDem]

266. So what? Under that constitution (1959) Sharia law was abolished, women got the vote, abortion

rights, the right to hold office, attend school, and wear whatever they wanted (except the veil), abortion rights and more freedom than most countries in the arab world, and non-muslims (2% of population) were allowed their own holidays and religious practice without persecution, and a government which was basically secular in practice.

Under the 1959 constition, members of Congress did *not* have to be muslim, or male.

I'm not sure why this is more heinous than say, the situation in israel, which doesn't have a constitution or any explicit requirement for its leader to be a Jew -- yet all its leaders have been.

In fact, the situation in tunisia was very much like the situation in Israel.


PREAMBLE

In the name of God, The Compassionate and Merciful,

We, the representatives of the Tunisian people, meeting as members of the National
Constituent Assembly,

Proclaim the will of this people, which has liberated itself from foreign domination by
virtue of its powerful cohesion and of its struggle against tyranny, exploitation and
regression:

•to consolidate national unity and to remain faithful to the human values which
constitute the common heritage of peoples attached to human dignity, justice
and liberty, and working for peace, progress and free cooperation between
nations;

•to remain faithful to the teachings of Islam, to the unity of the Greater
Maghreb, to its membership of the Arab family, to cooperation with the
African peoples for the building a better future, and to solidarity with all
peoples who are struggling for justice and liberty;

•to establish a democracy founded on the sovereignty of the people and
characterized by a stable political system based on the separation of powers.
We proclaim that the republican regime constitutes:

•the best guarantee for the respect of the rights of Man, the establishment of the
equality of citizens in their rights and duties, the realization of the prosperity
of the country through economic development and the exploitation of the
national riches for the benefit of the people;

•the most effective means for ensuring the protection of the family and the
citizens’ right to work, health, and education; We, the representatives of the free and s
overeign Tunisian people proclaim, by the grace of God, the present Constitution....

Article 5

The Tunisian Republic shall guarantee the fundamental liberties and rights of Man in
their universal, global, complementary, and interdependent understanding.

The Tunisian Republic shall have as its foundations the principles of rule of law and
pluralism and shall work for the dignity of Man and the development of his
personality.

State and society shall endeavor to firmly implant the values of solidarity, mutual
assistance and tolerance between the individuals, groups and generations.

The Tunisian Republic shall guarantee the inviolability of the human person and
freedom of conscience and shall protect the free exercise of
religion, as long as it does not disturb the public order...

Article 6

All citizens shall have the same rights and duties. They shall be equal before the law.

Article 8

The liberties of opinion, expression, press, publication, assembly and association shall
be guaranteed and exercised with in the conditions defined by statute.

The right to establish trade unions shall be guaranteed.

The political parties shall contribute to the guidance of citizens with regard to
organizing their participation in political life. They must be organized on democratic
foundations. The political parties must respect the sovereignty of the people, the
values of the Republic, the rights of Man, and the principles relating to personal
status.

The political parties shall commit themselves to abstaining from any form of violence,
of fanaticism, of racism, and any form of discrimination.

A political party may not essentially base its principles, objectives, activities, or program upon a specific religion, language, race, sex, or region.

Article 20

Every citizen who has been a Tunisian national for at least five years, has attained at
least eighteen years of age and fulfills the requirements defined by the
Elections Act shall have the right to vote.

Article 21

Any voter, born of a Tunisian father or of a Tunisian mother, who is at least twenty-
three years of age on the day of submission of his candidacy, is eligible for election to
the Chamber of Deputies.

A candidate to the Chamber of Councilors must be born of a Tunisian father or a
Tunisian mother, be at least forty years of age on the day of submission of his
candidacy, and have the right to vote.

These conditions shall apply to all members of the Chamber of Councilors.

http://www.mpil.de/shared/data/pdf/constitution_tunisia_english.pdf

[riderinthestorm]

270. Nothing in the past means anything to the Tunisia of today!

The ratification of the new constitution has been suspended for the past 6 months because the Islamists have thrown a fit about it and are pressuring for change.

The Salafi Gulf states are maneuvering behind the scenes and the delay has created social chaos.

Amina's action was taken to highlight the looming problem for women in Tunisia. Comparisons to Iran are highly appropriate - the female revolutionaries have been overrun by the hardline Salafis who have billions at their disposal to sway the public. Tunisia stands on the brink of civil unrest and whatever their past WAS, is no longer relevant to their present.

[MADem]

274. Precisely--and the Salafists are pushing for MORE Islam, not less, and fewer rights for women.

Violent crews of Salafists are running around beating up on people that disagree with them--they are making life very difficult. If I were a Tunisian woman, I would be very concerned.

[MADem]

271. You don't get it. When it comes down to "rights of women," the reference point is the Qu'ran.

It may not be de jure sharia, but it's de facto. These men actually BELIEVE that they are executing the law "equally" but if they are referencing Qu'ranic law in their decision-making process, the treatment is NOT equal.


Here's some Tunisian justice for women for ya....

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/02/world/africa/tunisia-rape-protest

Rights group: Police rape woman in Tunisia, then charge her with indecency


http://womensenews.org/story/the-world/130403/islamic-extremists-alarm-secular-women-in-tunisia#.UWDqnJOG2So

Islamic Extremists Alarm Secular Women in Tunisia

..."There is a pressing problem of insecurity in Tunisia with the birth of militia and armed Salafists who attack people without hearing any reaction from the government," said Saida Rached, secretary general of the Tunisian Association of Democratic Women, a group that was banned under the ousted regime of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali. "Tunisians are starting to suspect the current regime and especially the Ministry of Interior of complicity."

Because of the insecurity "women are afraid to go out," Rached added, recalling a few incidents in which violent Salafists attacked people, including women, who disagreed with their ideas. Rached spoke with Women's eNews in March, on the sidelines of the U.N. annual meeting of the Commission on the Status of Women.

...Although women have not lost any legal ground, Rached said they are suffering a "social regression" that began with the start of the global economic crisis in 2008 and worsened after the ousting of Ben Ali.

Islam was the religion of the state under the previous constitution adopted in 1959 and the draft version of the new constitution, now being written, reasserts that. Secularists now wonder whether the official religion will overtake state functions and international treaties that sometimes oppose the cultural norms of conservative Islam.

[HiPointDem]

300. you posted the 1959 constitution, under which tunisian women lived much as western women

lived, at least in the big cities, and there was a secular government & relative freedom of religion *even though* that constitution declared islam to be the state religion.

hint: it ain't the constitution, it's the regime and the international balance of power.

[MADem]

304. The draft constitution hasn't been ratified yet. They are still fighting over it.

The old constitution (which has been modified twice) is still operative.

The fundies want a return to polygamy and mandated purdah. The PM keeps saying that will never happen, but the government has been less than responsive to complaints about how women and girls are being treated, while unrest continues.

Recent events: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/30/world/africa/tunisians-call-for-womens-affairs-minister-to-resign.html?ref=tunisia

TUNIS (Agence France-Presse) — Dozens of angry Tunisians brandishing shoes on Friday demanded the resignation of the minister of women’s affairs, accusing her of failing to stand up to the ruling Islamists.

The minister, Sihem Badi, has for months been strongly criticized by civil society activists over her ties to Ennahda, the Islamist party that leads the coalition government and that secular opposition groups say seeks to curtail women’s rights.

More worrying are legal overhauls, human rights officials say. As Tunisia’s Constituent Assembly writes a new constitution, there have been repeated confrontations between Islamists, who dominate the assembly and want to roll back some rights acquired by women, and secular liberals, who want an expansion of those rights to include, for example, equal inheritance rights.

“We cannot speak of an obvious rollback since the legal reality is still the same,” said Amna Guellali, the director of Human Rights Watch in Tunis. “But acquired rights are being threatened by repeated attacks by Salafist groups on those they consider infidels or on behavior they deem contrary to Islamic morality.”....

“What was really striking to me after the revolution was that women started to lose their self-esteem,” Ms. Gargouri said. “The dictatorship was pro-woman. The hatred against the dictatorship is expressed through action against women.”

...Ms. Gargouri, who is in her 40s, said that women of her generation had never previously had to debate or defend their rights. But recent developments had pushed her to work to raise awareness of the challenge now facing them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/world/middleeast/women-face-fight-to-keep-their-rights-in-tunisia.html?ref=tunisia

Bottom line--Tunisia has problems with fundies who want to drag the nation backwards. They are lashing out at women because they associate being pro-woman with the vanquished dictatorship. Things are bad and they're getting worse.

[HiPointDem]

305. Yes: & those fundies are funded by US allies. The US is actually in bed with those fundies in

Syria, as fundie clerics in Tunisia are recruiting men to go fight on the side of the 'rebels' -- the same rebels the US is helping arm and train.

Maybe you should talk to the US government about your concerns.

[MADem]

307. Gee, you went from "Nothing to see here" to "Blame America."

Sure....whatever.

I don't think you have a grasp of this topic.

[HiPointDem]

309. i don't much care what you think.

[MADem]

312. I'm sure you don't--I have my facts in order, and that's apparently problematic for you. nt

[HiPointDem]

313. you have your straw men in order, you mean.

[MADem]

314. Which straw men would those be? Point them out, and do be very specific. nt

[DeSwiss]

170. Actuallly.....

...I'm fed up with ALL religions.

- All. Of. Them.

[snooper2]

181. the lack of certain usernames in the poll says more than anything else LOL

sucks being conflicted

[Luminous Animal]

213. For what it is worth, I never vote on these polls but I have expressed my

support for Amina many times in the past few days. In this thread, I have expressed my support for all Tunisia feminists and listed several names. I also gave a link to a book which contains interviews with Muslim feminists from all over the world (FYI, I've been told by several DUers that there is no such thing as Muslim feminists.)

[Nevernose]

281. FWIW, Tunisia is a wonderful country w/ wonderful people

And many of them are rightfully proud of their history in regards to women's rights. For instance, they were the first Arab nation to outlaw polygamy because it is unfair to women. It's far from perfect by Westwrn standards, but by Arab standards it's practically Sweden.

It's a wonderful country, and if you get the chance to go, they would welcome the tourism.

[stevenleser]

282. Everything that I have read seems to suggest that. And I think Amina and others like her are trying

to keep it that way. They dont want the Salafists to gain control and change Tunisia to something closer to Iran or late 1990's Afghanistan.

[MADem]

294. The fundies were trying to put that polygamy back IN the new constitution, you know.

Yes, Tunisia is a wonderful country, full of marvelous people, but now is a very bad time to go there. There is unrest and tension. In the near term, it will get worse before it gets better.

http://www.nzweek.com/world/u-s-warns-citizens-about-further-unrest-in-tunisia-55281/

TUNIS, March 19 — The U.S. State Department on Monday warned its citizens about potential further unrest in Tunisia, local media reported Tuesday.

According to its statement, Washington warned its citizens of the risk of traveling to Tunisia and advised those living in the country to avoid large crowds and demonstrations.

Last week, a Tunisian street cigarette vendor died after setting himself on fire in central the capital to protest against the unemployment and rising poverty in the country.

The move came as Tunisia’s new Prime Minister, Ali Laarayedh was due to announce the lineup of a new government, which was formed following consultations with the opposition in a bid to quell the protests triggered by the assassination of a respected secularist opposition leader.

[HappyMe]

315. Yes, I do.

I think she's brave to do that. I don't know that I have the courage.

I'm a bit puzzled about all the angst over the 'method'. I think the fact that she's doing this should over-ride the concern over 'method'.

[stevenleser]

318. + 10^10^100 nt

[HappyMe]

316. kick

[stevenleser]

319. Kick back atcha!

[HappyMe]

320. .....

[stevenleser]

332. Kick. 102 DUers who get it!!!!!