Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To Save Them

[redqueen]

FEMEN, the "sextremist" feminist group known for staging topless protests, declared yesterday "International Topless Jihad Day" in solidarity with Amina Tyler, a 19 year old Tunisian activist who had received death threats after posting topless pictures of herself to Femen's Tunisian Facebook page. She had written "Fuck your morals" and "My body belongs to me is not the source of anyone's honor" in Arabic on her chest, causing religious officials to call for her to be punished by 80 to 100 lashes or even, horrifyingly, by being stoned to death. Following reports that Amina had been admitted to a mental hospital, FEMEN called upon its supporters to protest the "lethal hatred of Islamists – inhuman beasts for whom killing a woman is more natural than recognising her right to do as she pleases with her own body" at Tunisian embassies around the world. Protests occurred in Sweden, Italy, Ukraine, France, and Belgium.

While it is unquestionably necessary, brave, and noble to stand with Amina (who is reportedly not free to move or speak safely), the protests were distressingly and distractingly Islamophobic. A photo from one of shows a white woman with crescent moons covering her nipples, wearing a fake beard, a unibrow penciled in with eyeliner, and a bath towel on her head. Another photo, highlighted on FEMEN's Facebook page is of a topless woman protesting at a mosque in San Francisco (because, when you're fighting the good fight of "TITS AGAINST ISLAMISM," standing topless in front of any mosque anywhere will do) with the following caption:

TODAY IS AMINA TOPLESS JIHAD DAY. I was at the Islamic Mosque in San Francisco. Some Arab guy tried to grab my sign and pushed me in a violent way. My friend stopped him. MY BODY IS MY TEMPLE.

Further down is a cartoon of a woman crawling out from under her burqa to light on fire the beard of a caricature of a Muslim man (or should I say "some Arab guy"?). In the comments, a woman posted a link to an Al Jazeera article about Muslim women counter-protesting the protest, as they rightfully feel that it was condescending and imperialistic in both tone and intent. FEMEN fans responded to her link in the following ways:

"Stupid muslim women. Made brainless by Quran."

"Stupid slaves!"

You know that there's something wrong with your protest when its ardent supporters find it appropriate to repeatedly call the women they are "saving" stupid and to affirm that they have no capacity for making decisions of their own.

...

http://jezebel.com/5993775/muslim-women-shockingly-not-grateful-for-topless-european-ladies-trying-to-save-them

Muslim women send message to Femen

Muslim women have launched a campaign to send a message to "sextremist" collective Femen. "Muslimah Pride Day" was organised in response to Femen's self-declared "Topless Jihad Day", a day of topless protests around the world to support Tunisian Femen activist Amina Tyler.

The organisers of the counter-protest urged Muslim women to speak out for themselves and assert their diverse identities:
...

Using the hashtag #MuslimahPride, netizens criticised Femen's campaign and said it reinforced stereotypes about Muslim women:

@SabihaMahmoud
“Only if Femen and Richard Dawkins would come to rescue us from our oppressive men and religion” said no muslim woman ever! #muslimahpride

...

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201304050033-0022659

Loved this post from the comments:

"The thing is, many Muslim women are indeed oppressed, just like many non-muslim women around the world. Patriarchy is a global problem, and I will not deny the misogyny in my culture. However, please, do not insult me, my intelligence, my color, my heritage and my body, and please don't do it because you think you're 'saving' me. There are many Muslim feminists in all Muslim countries, a feminist's job should be solidarity, amplifying voices of local feminists, not imagining they don't exist. Femen is simply very euro-centric, racist and colonialist. I haven't yet seen a black Femen protester, they are racist because they amplify European ideals of beauty; white, skinny, and young. I can't believe this isn't more obvious to people.

Personally, Femen, shut the fuck up, and don't claim that you speak for me, or anybody else. Stop dictating women that they need to be nude to be free, that's just as bad as men dictating them to be covered."

[Buzz Clik]

1. This is the first time I agree with you about something.

Miracles happen.

[redqueen]

2. That was necessary.

[Buzz Clik]

3. meh

At least I agreed with you about the OP.

[Katashi_itto]

226. Agree! I gotten to the point where, if it's from a certain group, it goes to trash, this is really

good and on target.

Kudos to the OP

[randome]

4. Relax. Keep your shirt on.

It's 'sextremist' to rebel against men's orders to remain clothed at all times in public, eh?

Judging the relevance of a protest by comments on an Internet site?

[redqueen]

5. You do know they call themselves 'sextremist', right?

Yeah, apparently not.

Might want to read about the group you're supporting. There's more to them than pictures of 'tits', actually.

[randome]

8. I'm sure there IS more to them than nudity.

I don't need to read up more on them. They're protesting against the patriarchy. Any protest against that has my support. That should be all the attention they rate on DU instead of all these posts nitpicking about whether or not they are protesting in the 'correct' manner.

Calling FEMEN 'racist' is a laugh, IMO. Their protest isn't a one size fits all approach, I guess. What protest is? It's only because of the nudity that some are hyperventilating over their approach.

[opiate69]

7. "Judging the relevance of a protest by comments on an Internet site?"

It's the extent of her "academic" search capabilities, apparently.. 100,00+ posts, and I don't think a single one of them actually refers to any legitimate source... "academics by blogger".

[opiate69]

124. Refresh my memory..

is Dines the Fundy nutcase, the psychotic nutcase who tried to kill a guy, or the whack-job who thought invisible giant penises were chasing her? Or some other whack-a-doodle?

.
.
..
















J/K.. I know which one she is lol

[Prism]

6. Concerned Women For America not thrilled with American Feminists

Yeah. That's how that works.

CWFA also complains that liberal feminists have not always been as respectful of Christianity as they think they ought to be.

Like I said, it's interesting to see the Phyllis Schafly attitude getting a vigorous defense in DU.

[redqueen]

9. This isn't about Christianity, or Islam... it's about basic human decency.

There are Muslim feminists. There are Christian feminists. Anti-religious zealots simply have to adjust their prejudices accordingly.

[Prism]

54. Conservative women use the same verbiage against liberal feminists

And yes, it is very much about religion. It's the patriarchal religion that created and enforced these standards of "decency" on women.

When conservative Christians try to articulate the "proper role" of women in society, exactly how much truck do you give them? And when American feminists tell the Southern Baptist Convention not just no, but hell no, do you regularly call them anti-religion zealots?

I suspect you do not.

So why is Islam granted a protection and courtesy you are not willing to extend to reactionary, patriarchal culture in the U.S.?

Can you adequately explain this glaring double standard?

[sufrommich]

71. How does calling them "stupid muslim women" help?

All fundamentalist religion is anti women, but to imagine that one can't be a feminist and Islamic is the same as saying that one can't be a feminist and Christian when in truth, many women identify as both Christian and feminist.These women in fundamentalist countries are well aware that their religion is being used as a political baseball bat against them,the same as christian feminist in the first world recognize that fundamentalist religion is used against them. It's really ridiculous to tell a woman who is of the Islamic religion that she must be a feminist or Islamic,but can't be both. None of the women in those facebook pictures seems to be rejecting feminism or supporting anti women regimes, they seem to be supporting their desire to fight the battle how they see fit. There are just as many interpretations of Islam as there is of Christianity and women all over the Arab world fighting to change their status within their religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism

Rejecting the western way of attaining that isn't the same as rejecting feminism.

[stevenleser]

122. Do you think attributing comments by anonymous internet posters to Femen makes your point?

It doesn't.

[sufrommich]

128. Did you read the rest of my post?

The whole civil rights movement in the US in the 1960s was steeped in religion, because those civil rights leaders knew that the people they were talking to were deeply religious people. Which do you imagine is more effective,using the prevalent religion to change minds or shouting "your religion sucks" at religious people who believe in your cause. As the OP pointed out,none of these women are denouncing feminism, they're denouncing attacks on their religion.

[opiate69]

136. Why bother, when your thesis statement was so astoundingly intellectually dishonest?

[maddezmom]

134. It doesn't help I suppose

But I would also say it doesn't help for the OP to say to another women's group to STFU. Considering how many times we hear from some feminists on DU they are told to STFU issues that are important to them.

[polly7]

139. Great point, maddezmom ... though I've yet to actually see a STFU said to anyone here. nt.

[maddezmom]

141. Me neither but it doesn't stop people from saying it

[onpatrol98]

227. +1

[alp227]

146. "anti-religious zealots"?

seeing from the 100+ reply flame wars on DU over Amina and the Pope I sometimes wish progressive movements were inherently secular ones.

[riderinthestorm]

10. Amina is a Muslim woman working in her own cultural context in her own country

She is also FEMEN.

So the other muslimahs refuse to acknowledge HER protest which of course causes cognitive dissidence because Amina is Muslim, protesting in a Muslim country, as a FEMEN protester. Instead they want to somehow ignore HER, and HER membership in that organization. You can't have it both ways.

Amina's actions take a direct frontal approach to growing Islamist pressures in Tunisia for women to be forcibly shrouded, silenced and disappeared. Her protest IS targeting religious and political forces which can't be wished away no matter how many muslimahs would like that.

Edited to add this is also a virtual dupe thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022616415

[redqueen]

11. Tunisia is a Muslim country?

I thought I read it was secular...

I do know there are religious fundies there pushing to have their way, just like here and many other countries.

I think it's an ugly generalization to say that muslimahs would support Islamic fundamentalists. They are a diverse group of women, and many would definitely not agree with you about that.

And at this point I need to bow out.

"Virtual dupe thread"... you do know there are many ACTUAL dupes posted, right? Fucksake.

[opiate69]

12. Typical disingenuous parsing bullshit..

Religion
Main articles: Religion in Tunisia and Islam in Tunisia


The Great Mosque of Kairouan
The majority of Tunisia's population (around 98%)are Muslims while about 1% follow Christianity and the remaining 1% adhere to Judaism or other religions.[81] The bulk of Tunisians belong to the Maliki School of Sunni Islam and their mosques are easily recognizable by square minarets. However, the Turks brought with them the teaching of the Hanafi School during the Ottoman rule which still survives among the Turkish descended families today, their mosques traditionally have octagonal minarets.[103]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia#Religion
Edit:

The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. Aside from the president, Tunisians enjoy a significant degree of religious freedom, a right enshrined and protected in its constitution, which guarantees the freedom to practice one's religion.[105]

[redqueen]

14. So then you agree with fundies that America is a Christian nation, right?

Yeah.

[opiate69]

15. See the edit in my previous.

indeed.

[redqueen]

19. See the history.

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/how-tunisia-dealt-with-the-islamic-question/

While Islam has always been the main religion in Tunisia, politics have long been secular.

Ghannouchi said the status quo for dealing with Islam and the constitution is the path for Tunisia and hopes to have an election over the constitution by June of 2013.

Egypt is struggling through its own constitutional process, with mass street protests and clashes, but Tunisia so far has steered clear of similar instability.

Amina's stunt ought to really help with maintaining that stability, as well as the upcoming election.

[opiate69]

21. Yes.. because your "bloggers" are more accurate than Tunisia's actual constitution...

Article 1
CHAPTER ONE General Provisions
Tunisia is a free, independent and sovereign state. Its religion is Islam, its language is Arabic and its type of government is the Republic.

http://confinder.richmond.edu/admin/docs/Tunisiaconstitution.pdf

Hmm.. Article 1... must be kinda high on their priority list, no?

[idwiyo]

221. How dare you to imply someone should actually read the source! The blogger somewhere

blogged something different. Now, stop oppressing and agree you are religious bigot, damn it!

[opiate69]

231. Bad ME!!!

[riderinthestorm]

28. Amina took her action in direct response to the growing Islamist threat

in Tunisia.

That the Arab Spring revolutions have turned into an Arab Chill - exposed as little more than Salafist movements funded by the Gulf States is now an inescapable reality.

Aliaa Elmahdy's own protest was well received here on DU because Egypt's clash with fundamentalist forces has received far more attention than Tunisia. That Amina would take the same sort of action isn't surprising in response to the realities on the ground for women in her country right now.

What's surprising is the pushback she has received.

As far as the new constitution, the drafting committee bears most of the responsibility for the rising social chaos when they decided to delay a vote on it for 6 months because of Islamist (ie Gulf States) pressures.

[opiate69]

41. Quit derailing..

It's really simple.. riderinthestorm characterized Tunisia as a Muslim country. In your typical haste to "educate" us, you intimated that his characterization was incorrect. The actual constitution of the country in question proved you wholly and laughably wrong. As things stand right now, Tunisia is indeed a Muslim country by definition. Whether this will change once the political wrangling sorts itself out is of no consequence to the question of whether the statement "Tunisia is a Muslim country" is currently true.

[Kurska]

49. "Stunt"? Excuse me, but a a woman standing up for her rights isn't a "Stunt".

Amina stood up against the sexist domination of her society and has been punished incredible for it. She is nothing short of a hero.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. So your message to Amina is "sit down, you're rocking the boat"?

I'm sure she'll be thrilled to have that said to her from the USA.

[riderinthestorm]

18. What part of "Islam is the OFFICIAL STATE religion" is hard to understand? nt

[redqueen]

20. See post 19.

This is fucking unreal.

People are working so hard to manufacture reality based on what they want to be true.

[opiate69]

22. "People are working so hard to manufacture reality based on what they want to be true."

Oh, the irony..

The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim.

Apparently means the statement "Tunisia is a Muslim country" is untrue.

[polly7]

24. Like these people?

Women Face Fight to Keep Their Rights in Tunisia
By AIDA ALAMI
Published: February 20, 2013

Chema Gargouri, the president of the Tunisian Association for Management and Social Stability, a nongovernmental organization that provides training and microloans for women and young people in poor areas, said women were more secure under Mr. Ben Ali.

Ms. Gargouri, who is in her 40s, said that women of her generation had never previously had to debate or defend their rights. But recent developments had pushed her to work to raise awareness of the challenge now facing them.

“What scares me is that the Tunisian woman seems lost,” she said. “In many places I go to, people ask what the government can do for them. We try to teach them to do it on their own.”

The fact is that Tunisia has an Islamist majority, said Ms. Ben Hamadi, the blogger. “Article 1 of the Tunisian Constitution states that it is an Islamic state,” she said. “If we want real democracy, we must listen to everyone’s voice.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/world/middleeast/women-face-fight-to-keep-their-rights-in-tunisia.html

[pnwmom]

74. By the constitution, it's a Muslim nation -- and 98% of citizens are Muslim.

So the politics can be "secular" because they agree on the religious stuff.

If it weren't a Muslim country, they wouldn't be executing "apostates."

http://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DZ1Tqp_s_pbM

[theKed]

36. When the American Constitution

"declares Christianity as the official state religion and requires the President to be Christian", then that equivilancy would be accurate. Currently? Not so much.

[Bonobo]

191. Holy Christ, I have to laugh at the thrashing, the struggling, the twisting...

The pathetic display of disingenuous bullshit to support a position that they took against Femen on this (that I bet they now regret doing).

Like watching a someone have an epileptic fit as they sink in quicksand with their arms tied behind their back...and only their mouths work.

[riderinthestorm]

13. Yes. And nowhere did I say that muslimahs support Islamic fundamentalists nt

[redqueen]

16. I misread...

You said the mulsimahs would like something to be wished away, and I misread it.

[name not needed]

17. This again?

[randome]

27. I know, right?

[sufrommich]

23. One size does not fit all when it comes to feminists

movements around the world,I think that is Femen's problem.What works in the Ukraine and in Tunisia isn't going to work in the more religiously radical states in the Arab world. I think what the feminists in those parts of the world are trying to tell Femens is that "you're not helping".Unfortunately,Femens attacked the women who are trying to change cultural norms in countries that they most likely understand more clearly than European feminists do.

[seabeyond]

37. not really doing shit in ukraine and tunisia either.

just a hay day of pictures of a handful of girls running around yelling, topless.

have they every accomplished a single things anywhere? after a year of reading about femen, i would say an easy, no.

[polly7]

46. Are you using 'girls' to put these women down, or do you believe they're minors?

They've accomplished quite a lot, women's rights normally aren't something the world spends much attention on.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. My 83-year-old mother calls her group of friends "the girls."

I don't think she's trying to put them down.

I don't think she believes they're minors.

[polly7]

53. Oh, I call my friends girls all the time. It's just odd

seeing someone who's pretty much condemned the use of the word here as one of the world's greatest insult towards women, using it.

[maddezmom]

58. Yeah, it is strange

Do as I say, not as I do comes to mind.

[sufrommich]

55. Actually, they remind me of feminist street theater in the 1970s

and,judging by an interview with one of their leaders, they fall much more in line with 2nd wave feminists:

http://osocio.org/academy/message/exclusive_interview_with_femens_founder_anna_hutsol/


The problem is that they're attempting to apply a very European/American/1st world standard of activism to a culturally different area of the world that already has deep suspicions that 1st worlders see them as culturally inferior people,as I said before,even feminists in these religiously structured countries find it insulting.

I really don't have a problem with Femen in regard to how they fight their battle in their own cultural backyard,it's their clumsy attempt at garnering support of women in the arab world that bothers me.I live in the Detroit area around many,many Arabs,I've lived with them,hung out with them and gone to school with them all my life,I will say that at least with Arabs in the US,there is no way I would judge an Arab woman's commitment to feminist ideals based on what she wears on her head or her style of dress,that is not a good indicator for much of anything other than personal choice.In countries where women have no choice in how they dress, mocking them for that seems counter productive.

[bettyellen]

101. wow, insightful- thank you!

[MattSh]

69. Have the ones not running around topless accomplished anything?

If so, what, and why doesn't anybody hear anything about it?

[datasuspect]

160. it's "womyn"

[bettyellen]

25. knowing that anti- Muslim sentiment and bigotry are on the rise in Europe, I wish Femen had

some sensitivity to that. The things they were doing in Paris could have a very negative impact on women working there- seems like they gave that no thought.

And for what, educating people that Abrahamic religions are patriarchal? Anyone who gives a shit already knows that.

It would be interesting to hear what they think should be done about it, or if they know anything about what local feminists are already doing. Seems like they are trying to just pressure women into dropping their veils and running away from home- leaving their families and communities? It's just a very odd and insensitive approach.

[riderinthestorm]

34. You do know that their support was for a "local feminist" Amina, a Muslim woman

of Tunisia, who took her action in Tunisia right?

Amina is also a member of FEMEN.

They were protesting in solidarity with HER for at least this round. Tunisia is suffering social chaos from the influx of Islamists who are threatening the secular society/politics/constitutional process. They want to shroud women - silence and disappear them.

So yes, I do think they know the issues here.

[bettyellen]

63. from what I read all their "support" is virtual- and she only "joined" immediately prior to her

action. That there is no group meeting or supporting her on the ground.

So, no I am not going to assume they know much about how they are effecting women in the local communities. Their actions in France seem remarkably out of touch.
It doesn't seem thought, planning or activism to effect change is part of the equation. Or maybe it is there and no one is reporting on it. Hard to say.

[riderinthestorm]

66. Someone's hiding her right now so she has support from somewhere.

It doesn't matter one bit to me when she joined FEMEN. Clearly she linked to them for a reason and a purpose before she planned her protest.

Who exactly is providing what to Amina at the moment probably SHOULD be a secret. The fatwa against her is no laughing matter.

And I'd say that this protest has been massively successful. It has focused attention on the deteriorating situation for women in Tunisia under growing Islamist political pressure in almost exactly the same way Aliaa Elmahdy's action did (which got near universal support here on DU ).

As for FEMEN in general, it has only been around for FIVE years. FIVE! They have certainly provoked more discussion on the role of women in patriarchal religions in 5 years than many other orgs like NOW could ever dream of after decades of organized protests.

[bettyellen]

68. so Femen might possibly be helping her? OK. Maybe the younger generation needed a refresher course

and Femen is good for that. But comparing them to NOW is just ridiculous. I'm sorry, but putting pics on FB isn't even analogous to the kind of work organizations who work to directly impact lives with improved conditions- better access to health education and opportunity does. That is activism. Their actions are closer to what we used to call publicity stunts.

Did you really know anyone over the age of 17 who didn't know Islam sucks for women? I think anyone remotely interested in politics or feminism knows that.

Getting likes on FB should not be their big aim. To me it seems they have been given a megaphone, and are shouting sound bites, and blowing the chance to give info that would be useful. Or advocate for anything.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

35. Islam specifically, not just Abrahamic religions.

A lot of Westerners - especially liberals, tragically - still try and promote the idea that all three Abrahamic religions are equally bad.

That is not the case - Islam as practiced by the majority (by no means all) of its adherents is much, much worse than the other two as practiced by the majority of theirs.

As proved by DU, not everyone knows/accepts that, and so I think it still needs repeating.

[whathehell]

57. Thank you...It's about time

those westerners dropped their pc bullshit about it.

[Trajan]

65. This Liberal Atheist 'tragically' equates all three

Which you apparently dread ...

Each of the Abrahamic faiths have suffered and have caused suffering ... Each have had their moment at the zenith of humanity, and each have fallen to the depths of depravity ...

Each has risen and fallen in their own times .... All have contributed great things ... and ALL have committed horrible acts of violence against innocent human beings ...

Equally ...

Your bias is rejected ....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. I note that all your comments are phrased in the past tense. N.T.

[Arugula Latte]

157. A pox on them all.

[bettyellen]

67. Hmmm, I agree with Femen that Catholicism is pretty awful to women. Forced birthing and all...

If Catholics felt they had to practice what is preached, (like they did a generation or two ago) the church would be tiny, it would be completely fringe these days.
But let's not make this into the Oppression Olympics where we rank who is crappier instead of acknowledging the bad.

As it is, I'm just grateful Catholic's not as politically active against women as the fundies are. That's the second nicest thing I can say about the church I grew up in.

[Scootaloo]

170. Islamophobia is not an acceptable substitute for knowledge of history.

All three (four, really, can't forget Mormonism!) Abrahamic faiths are fucking awful with regards to women. Really, arguing over who treats women worse between them is like arguing over which turd smells worse.

The illusion that Christianity / Judiasm / Mormonism are "better" has nothing to do with the religions in question. The condition of women in the west is almost totally in spite of these religions.

See, a funny thing that Europeans and their descendant colonies forget, while preening about how awesome and enlightened they are, is that the overwhelming majority of Europe's history is characterized by religious warfare. The subcontinent has, in historical terms, only very recently crawled out of its mire of crusades, purges, schisms, inquisitions, and god knows what else. it didn't crawl out of the shit it was in because, oh, the religions got better. it happened because the people threw revolutions, overthrew governments, and did what they could to fence religion off from temporal power. And as we see in the United States - and still in parts of Europe - it's a constant struggle to keep[/] it that way.

Now despite the Gellarisms you might have accepted as truth, the Muslim world does not have this sort of history. There's been conflicts within the Muslim world of course, but hardly the constant roil of slaughter and massacre that defined Christianity in Europe. So much of the Muslim world didn't have the same incentive to build those same fences between religion and power. The two traveled together in tandem, and while it probably wasn't a utopian paradise by any means, it generally lacked the abuses the relationship forged in Europe.

But then, knock the power out of the "Power" side of the equation in the Muslim world - a series of setbacks, such as Hulegu's decimation of the Abassids, Seville's conquest of al-Andalus, then the Ottomans basically becoming an insular regime that hemorrhages wealth taken from their provinces on mercenaries in Europe, then that empire's collapse and the conquest of the Muslim world by Europe, followed by "Western powers" giving their support to autocratic, and frankly savage rulers (the Sauds, Assad, Saddam, the Taliban, the Shah, Egypt's military junta, all had the complete support of the "enlightened Christian west&quot and what the fuck do you think is going to happen?

Take a look at Christianity in sub-Saharan Africa; Same religion as Europe, but - again - without the attending history to demand tall fences between religion and temporal power. Would you rather be a woman in Muslim Tunisia, or a woman in Christian Liberia? If you've got any sense, you're picking Tunis over Freetown.

it's not that some religions are better than others - most, Abrahamic or no, treat women like shit - it's just that some cultures wall off religion better than others, and they do this due to historical influence rather than some native "betterness."

[Douglas Carpenter]

187. +1000 -

[Donald Ian Rankin]

219. You'll note that I was talking about "are", while you insist on talking about "were".

Whether Christianity a thousand years ago was, on average, better or worse than Islam today is very much open to debate (your historical analysis strikes me as almost certainly complete bunk, but I'm not confident in that dismissal), but it's also a silly question.

The question which is worth asking, because it has actual implications for how we interact with them, is to compare the influence *today* of Christianity and Islam. And the latter is unquestionably far, far more malign.

Shouting "Islamophobia" does not change that. Islamophobia can be defined more or less broadly, but if you define it broadly enough to include pointing out that the ethical teachings of Islam as interpreted by the majority of its practitioners contain a great deal of wickedness, then you've also defined it sufficiently broadly that it's *not* being an "Islamophobe" that is the moral failing.

Incidentally, your selection of a specific Muslim country (where women are treated very poorly compared to the average standard of Christian countries, specifically because of Islam) to a specific Christian country (where the status of women is also poor compared to the average of Christian countries, for reasons only peripherally connected to Christianity), rather than doing an average-to-average or distribution-to-distribution comparison, is a grade 1 example of intellectual dishonesty - it's a deliberate attempt to obfuscate and mislead to trick people into accepting the answer you want them to, rather than to arrive at an accurate answer.

[Arcanetrance]

26. Personally I could be wrong but from what I'm seeing alot of it has to do with

"well educated white people have to tell those nonwhite women how to act" or Atleast that's what I get from the femen protests

[bettyellen]

81. yeah, when you combine that with their lack of policy goals or work WITHIN the community

to achieve things, it's a little odd. Seems like we clothed women get a really bad reaction if we suggest to anyone how to live their lives, but it's okay because they are (most often) on the same continent- or the same FB page?

[Comrade Grumpy]

29. Well, I hope FEMEN is thoughfully processing the reactions it has provoked.

[randome]

30. I'm listening to Common People by Pulp.

A woman going topless should be a 'common people' kind of thing.

[CobblePuller]

31. The best thing about this thread....

is the double-entendres.

[LittleBlue]

32. I hope FEMEN keep protesting

Some of their messages are too hateful to me, like "stupid Muslim women", etc. But their methods are both interesting and effective, and they seem to spark an interesting debate. At this point I'm clicking on FEMEN articles to see what they'll do next, or just to look at the pictures from their protests.

Hopefully folks will support FEMEN just to keep such an interesting and provocative phenomenon alive. I mean hell, when was the last time boobless protests generated this much debate and interest? Keep it up.

[Arugula Latte]

33. I get this, but

when "covered-but-liberated" Muslim women say it is their choice what they wear -- well, yeah, in some sense. But they have a culture/religion telling them that they need to cover their sinful hair and ankles so they won't provoke the poor defenseless menfolk with their strumpetry. I feel the same way about U.S. Christian women who wear long skirts and long hair at all times -- it's a dress code pushed by an oppressive, patriarchal culture. They can pretend covering up is their choice, but really, they have a choice between conforming and buying in to the norm ultimately pushed by repressive men or suffering the consequences of bucking their own culture -- not an easy thing to do if you do not wish to be alienated from the people you know best.

[JI7]

188. but how about the muslim women who are not covered , many wear shirts and jeans

dress like most western women do. Tunisia protests include many women with sleeveless tops , jeans etc.

[opiate69]

192. And, you do realize that freedom is under threat, right??? Hence the protesting???

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWSW6bAMLZhQ4_cBUmTjmtRNTv_g?docId=CNG.8717d4d14cf2a53356bd89267ef74352.211

TUNIS — Several thousand men and women demonstrated outside the Tunisian parliament on Friday to demand the inclusion of Islamic law in the north African country's future constitution.
"The people want the application of God's sharia", "Our Koran is our constitution", "No constitution without sharia," and "Tunisia is neither secular nor scientific, it is an Islamic state", cried the protesters, drawn mainly from the Islamist Salafist movement.
Some men climbed on the roof of the building and unfurled a banner that read: "The people belong to God."
Several women sported the niqab, or full-face veils.
Tunisia's moderate Islamist leaders, who took power following last year's ouster of strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali after a popular uprising, are under pressure from a radical Muslim fringe.
The ultra-conservative Salafists have in recent months demanded full-face veils for female university students, castigated a TV channel for an allegedly blasphemous film and beaten up journalists at a protest.
"We are here today to peacefully demand the application of sharia in the new constitution. We will not impose anything by force on the Tunisian people, we just want that the people are convinced of the principles," said Marwan, a 24-year-old trader.
An engineer, who refused to give his name, added: "A Muslim should live under the tenets of Islamic law. The secularists would have one believe that Islam chops off the hands of thieves but... one must study Islam. The West has failed."
Tunisia adopted a provisional constitution in December and is currently drafting a new one which is due to be completed around the middle of next year.

[Kurska]

38. Brutal oppression of women? NEVER EVER OKAY, well except if it is done by Muslims.

This is what I've learned in threads about this topic.

God bless FEMEN, it is about time someone started standing up for women and gays in Muslim countries.

[opiate69]

39. Well... I would add...

"except if it is done by Muslims, and counter protesters get nekkid". Otherwise, yup.. you got it.

[Kurska]

40. Oh yeah I forgot how we all need to be DISGUSTED by the human body.

IF god ever wanted us to be naked he wouldn't have us come out of the womb fully clothed!

[msanthrope]

45. Bare breasts are patriarchy, you know. nt

[opiate69]

48. Meh.. not my best attempt at humor..Nurse, more coffee, Stat!

[Prism]

60. Thanks a lot

Now I'll have coffee stains on the front of my shirt for the rest of the day, lol.

[opiate69]

61. lol sorry! (And dammit.. I guess I edited too soon)

[Prism]

62. Probably a wise edit

But man that was funny. Especially since I didn't see the graphic coming because I'm reading on a phone.

[Apophis]

42. I agree.

[Comrade Grumpy]

47. Red herring.

I don't think anybody here is saying the brutal oppression of women is okay if it's done by Muslims.

I don't think the offended Muslim feminists are saying that, though they seem to be saying that FEMEN doesn't speak for them.

It's an argument over tactics and efficacy.

[Kurska]

56. I've seen more threads in GD in the past fews days criticizing FEMEN

Than I have seen in months about the oppression Muslim women face in their home countries.

So yes, I say it is perfectly valid to point out that a lot of ink is being used to attack FEMEN and not so much being used to address the actual problems that FEMEN is trying to tackle.

On edit: I just realize this is post number 3000. It has been awesome DU, I really cherish this forum and the ability to discuss important issues.

[JVS]

80. But they're nothing but a European version of Girls Gone Wild drunk on activism instead of booze!

[msanthrope]

43. Another boob thread? nt

[Kurska]

44. I'm a feminist. I believe in the equality of the sexes in all times and in all places.

I make zero excuses or "religious exemptions" for brutality toward women. I'd contend anyone willing to excuse away the brutality that many Islamic countries practice toward women is not in fact a feminist. At minimum they seem to be a "Feminist" with a rather massive blindspot.

I hope more people will join me in actually standing up for women rights that are universal, with no excuses and no bullshite.

[BainsBane]

50. yet, if I recall correctly

and please correct me if I don't, you oppose the enforcement of EEOC laws in the US (Adria Richards). I personally am more concerned about opposition to my rights in this country than what women in other countries choose to wear. I also have to wonder why you're so keen on the right of Europeans to insist Muslim women go topless as oppose to the right of women to determine the issues that matter to them?

You continue to denounce a uniform Islam, completely unconcerned that you know very little about those societies and that our country this minute is dropping bombs on those women you claim to care about. So many contradictions, it's hard to cut through them all.

[Kurska]

52. No woman should ever be fired or mistreated because she is a woman.

I barely recall the Adria Richards thing. Wasn't she the person who got fired because of the negative media backlash after she publicly shamed some guys on twitter for making a dick joke in private?

My lord, doesn't this demonstrate the odd priorities of some people. Women's rights activists being brutalized in in Muslim countries, no big deal. A woman who is fired because she engaged in some really poorly thought out social network behaviour, a martyr.

Honestly I'm speechless. Such thinking is the definition of Eurocentric.

[LittleBlue]

59. Agreed

How long did we obsess over door opening and who pays for dinner? How long were those threads about anti-porn regulation?

This superficial brand of feminism seems hopelessly divorced from women's rights.

[Luminous Animal]

77. Femen is anti-porn and prostitution.

[bettyellen]

94. did you see they knocked a nude dancer off the stage and jumped up to rip their shirts off?

i'm giving them points for irony.

[JI7]

190. maybe they don't think women should be paid for it

which i can kind of understand. you don't want women to have to do things like that in order to make a living.

[bettyellen]

193. They disrupted a womans rights conference, said the women there talk too much, LOL.

Yet they themsleves seem to be failing on the awareness part.... because the press often has no clue at all what they are doing. But they publish the pics anyway! Hope they got that heat and some public toilets before expanding internationally.

[opiate69]

194. "There", "Their", "They're". Figure it out.

[bettyellen]

195. thanks- now what do you think of them hijacking a woman;s right;s conference? or peeing in public

to ask for more public bathrooms? Or heat in their apartement? Or admittedly taking their tops off for no reason at all.
Is Femen reeking of serious commitment to you? Or a rag tag group who just want to make some noise?

[opiate69]

197. Meh.. I'm a big fan of poking the "powers that be" in the eye with a big fucking stick..

so, in that regard, I don't have any problem with any of those forms of protest. What is that little canard you ladies like to quote all the time??? Damn.. it's right on the tip of my brain...
.
.

oh .. right.. I think I have it..

[bettyellen]

198. change- like the toilets and heat? and closing brothels? it appears they ditched for greener

pastures before they got anything but a three page spread in Italian GQ.
Does this new actvism involve only brief random protests and no commitment to any cause?

[opiate69]

199. Well, I'm sure they'll appreciate you letting them know which causes are important enough.

[riderinthestorm]

200. Yes well as bettyellen has said, no protest is authentic without an action plan!

Or at least a 5 year model of goals for activist achievement or they aren't truly authentic or important! Its simply not enough to step out onto the national stage in protest, no sirree. For betttyellen the only ones who matter, especially women activists, are those who have figured it all out ahead of time.

Otherwise their protests are just too "unfocused". And however much international media attention they garner in getting their message out - its just "not much". Bettyellen is all about telling wannabe feminists exactly how WRONG they are for sussing out their local community and taking action they believe is appropriate for their situation. No sirree, they don't understand what's important - only bettyellen does!!

[opiate69]

201. Yup.

I guess they better get it together and email her their 5-point business plan, and all the financials, so they can set up a meeting with the investors to decide whether or not they should fund FEMEN's next big venture.

[bettyellen]

210. I'm sorry Femen had no impact in Russia aside from getting pics published.... no new public toilets

no heat, no interest in denouncing the feminists conference they crashed, and no luck promoting their area as a destination of opprtunity for women (maybe because they also complained it was a shithole brothel) and no luck with closing any of the brothels.
They made no sustained efforts, weren't able to get results or taken seriously because they were all over the map trying to publicize themselves instead of any particular cause. And so they bailed.
So yeah, pardon me if I don't see their newest commitment to the kind of feminism where "women don't talk too much" super impressive.
I've done enough reseach to realize they are playing all of us. Hopefully a few women will be able to replicate their forumla and parlay it to asylum, and a ticket out of their hostile enviorments too. That's about the extent of their usefullness to women who are currently living in Islamic communities. The ones that cannot breakaway will suffer the fallout. And they'll be on to the next thing.

[bettyellen]

202. I doubt they gave a shit about most of them, except as a ticket out.

Leaving their former home remaining "a big brothel" after a few photo shoots.
Their tireless dedication and success would be admirable, if there was any signs of either.

[alp227]

147. They guys weren't making it in private,

they were misbehaving during an event where the audience was expected to shush. And Richards and others sitting near the guys obviously don't take kindly to grown-ups acting like children in a professional setting. Sadly, this nation has a great contingent of stupid teenage boys, unemployed men, and immature professional men who go as far as to threaten Richards with rape.

[BainsBane]

180. There you go again

Your vast knowledge of Islam.
Yes, the right to a job vs. a veil. I'm going to say a job and survival is more important that the fact you don't like a woman's clothing choices. Shocking, that some guy on his computer screen shouldn't decide what women throughout the world have to wear to be truly "liberated."

This OP is about women's rights activists standing up for their own views, something you have just decided is meaningless.

So as your point makes clear, you do not support EEOC law and instead support a discriminatory employer's illegal firing a woman in retribution. http://www.rmlawyers.com/blog/2013/03/sendgrids-unlawful-and-retaliatory-termination-of-adria-richards.shtml

US laws passed under Republican administrations are too radical for you, but you are happy to condemn as inferior an entire culture you know nothing about, especially if you don't happen to like their clothing choices. I don't see any evidence of your respecting the views of women anywhere. You don't respect the rights of Muslim women to determine what they care about and you don't respect the rights of American women to work in discriminatory free workplaces and not lose their jobs in retaliation. That's a kind of concern I for one can do without. The women mentioned in the OP are saying the same thing: keep your condescension and your bombs and leave us alone.

[Kurska]

181. "you do not support EEOC law" I very much do and this conversation is over for that remark.

I have no interest in being "told" what laws I support. That is the very definition of putting words in someone's mouth. I have never once said that law is invalid or shouldn't exist. That is an incredibly intellectually dishonest way to engage in debate.

[opiate69]

183. Here is all you need to know about that poster, Kurska.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=302058&sub=trans

[polly7]

220. Wth? nt.

[opiate69]

235. I know, right??

[idwiyo]

222. Nice find! Didn't know one can create sock puppets and not get their arse booted out

of here.

[opiate69]

229. As I remember it, creating a sock in and of itself is supposedly OK... however,

Doing it to get around alert limitations certainly seems to violate this part of the ToS:

Don't post malicious code or mess with the software.
Do not attempt to intentionally interfere with or exploit the operation of the Democratic Underground website or discussion forums (eg. by "post bombing" or using any other flooding techniques, by attempting to circumvent any restrictions placed on your account by the forum software, etc.)

I have a question about it in with ATA. Haven't had an answer yet. I suppose it's possible Admins may have given her some kind of warning or something, but until they answer me, I don't know.

[idwiyo]

230. am interested to know the answer, will keep an eye on it. thanks for the info. :)

[opiate69]

232. My pleasure.. definitely one of those "things that make you go 'Hmmmm' "

[distantearlywarning]

133. Agree 100%

Thank you for your participation on these threads.

[DirkGently]

70. Wait ... what? If "solidarity" is the problem, where's the support for Femen?

And wasn't the first woman who garnered all the attention Tunisian?

I don't have a problem with Muslim women supporting their own religion, but it's pretty despicable accusing Femen of being racists. They're making noise, claiming their own bodies. Maybe there's a segment that's broadbrushing Islam somewhere, but address that.

This attack on the Femen feminists is bullshit.

[bettyellen]

73. I'm trying to figure out HOW you support Femen- is "liking them" on Facebook what they want?

They're not leaving anyone with an action plan for real support- are they?

There is unfortunately a HUGE amount of anti- Muslim sentiment in Europe right now, especially in areas when Femen is active.
I do think they need to consider that.

[polly7]

75. Name one single social accomplishment in the history of the world that wasn't done

by bringing attention to it, or by war. These women have the attention of the world ...... whether yours is approving or not matters zilch.

[bettyellen]

76. who didn't know about religions being patriarchal? I guess kids on FB. the only place in the world

where hitting a "like" button is considered doing something. LOL.
I guess we really are an idiocracy.

[polly7]

78. Idiocracy is minimizing the fight of others because it offends 'you'.

I don't do facebook. I've seen dozens of major articles about these women all over the net, though, and petitions linked to them for various causes around the world. Maybe you just need to expand your horizons a bit.

[bettyellen]

86. I'm sorry if you don't like that the whole world is more interested in their method than their msg

when I googled them I found the first three pages were articles discussing their style of protest and very minor and vague references to their activities. One petition for Anima. Nothing but a few slogans and pics and merch for sale on their website. What did I miss?

I'm not minimizing their fight, it appears they are doing that themselves by limiting things to photo ops and a few slogans. Not a fuck load to talk about, is there? If there is please god- someone post it. LOL.

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. What's your opinion of Code Pink?

Isn't Femen very similar to Code Pink? A group aiming at getting the maximum publicity for their messages, which are often pretty obvious?

[bettyellen]

91. when they have specific legislation and pols targeted I think they are usually great....

Do you think ending patriarchal influences +/or religion without any focus or targeting legislation etc is worthwhile?
I feel like they are getting attention, and not doing anything constructive with it. At least not that I could find.

Kind of like the pink ribbon campaign, spend some of that the money on cancer already, not all of it on marketing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. Femen have specific targets

eg to discourage prostitution during the Euro 2012 football cahmpionships:

Femen repeatedly appealed to both UEFA and Ukrainian government to create a social program devoted to the problem of sex tourism and prostitution in Ukraine; to inform football fans that prostitution is illegal in Ukraine; and to develop visual decisions and slogan for the Euro 2012 final match to fight against prostitution and sex tourism. The group even crated their own Euro 2012 mascots, Blyadek and Blyadko, who simply "love sex, football and beer".

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11012768-euro-2012-without-prostitution-femen-activists-go-topless-against-uefa

Demonstrating for the release of political prisoners in Belarus:

The three protesters had bared their breasts and demanded freedom for political prisoners.

At least six journalists were arrested for covering the protest, AFP news agency reports.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16275566

Anti-Putin demonstrations, because they say he's anti-democracy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/femen-end-of-the-world-protest_n_2346264.html

Some more general demonstrations, like anti-capitalist ones at Davos: https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/28

I don't see that it's a problem for them to protest about Sharia and misogyny in Islam too.

[bettyellen]

196. you left out the feminst confrence -"they talk too much" and public toilets....

and heat in their apartements! It's amazing how bad their press is, once you delve into it.

[riderinthestorm]

107. That's weird when I googled, I found lots of information and links

Wiki comes up first and pretty clearly articulates what they stand for and what they do.

The goals of the organization are "to shake women in Ukraine, making them socially active; to organize in 2017 a women's revolution." It describes itself as "radical feminism".FEMEN has pledged to fight the sex industry, the Church and its traditionalist stances against women (such as prohibition of abortion), and "patriarchal society," as well as those who oppose equal rights for the LGBT community. FEMEN has expressed opposition against Islamism, Sharia law and spoken against the practice of FGM. The organization claims "to unite young women basing on the principles of social awareness and activism, intellectual and cultural development" to "recognise the European values of freedom, equality and comprehensive development of a person irrespective of the gender" and "To build up the image of Ukraine, the country with great opportunities for women"

It goes on to say they are working to help craft legislation and they recently published a book as well as setting up a training center for activists in France. For the first five years this is a lot imho along with their very public demonstrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMEN


You DO know that some protests are organized around one very simple message and that's the whole point of the action right? Cindy Sheehan, the protests against the Iraq War, candlelight vigils for murdered children etc etc - NONE of these are designed to do anything more than bring attention to the message. That doesn't diminish their importance or power or necessity. You seem to want to denigrate any protest action that doesn't have some tangibles attached but some of the most effective demonstrations can be about getting out a single message and nothing more.

[bettyellen]

126. i think "one off" photo opportunities are what they are. and it's great they had policy recs for

Ukrainian games, that is a lot saner than the "ending patriarchy in religion" thing. As it is, their actions seem random and scattered, and are not sustained enough to get them anywhere. But the ad hoc thing seems to be their style.
Yeah I think they need to be goal oriented, absolutely. And relentless. In order to achieve anything, you need to be.
Thanks so much for the link, it;s better than the pages of crap articles I looked at- all talking about nudity. I'm kind of over hearing about it.

[opiate69]

79. "considered doing something"...

As opposed to blathering on incessantly on a political message board?

[LittleBlue]

92. Indeed

Activism is getting out and getting attention, not trolling progressives on a forum.

[bettyellen]

96. you tell me- what other "activists" have no action plan at all?

because I have been doing it for 25 years, and I have never seen anyone think two slogans is all you need to "topple the patriarchy".

[LittleBlue]

102. It's a little unseemly

that activists would attack other protestors.

Truth be told, I don't really agree with a lot of FEMEN's message, and I don't think FEMEN will accomplish anything. I don't think the patriarchy or the 1% can be toppled. But it's important that protestors like FEMEN and OWS are encouraged, even if we don't agree, so that society will not be discouraged from protesting. It's a pretty brave thing for a woman to go topless in front of the international press.

It makes me think the Adria Richards crowd needs to find a raison d'etre other than trivialities.

[bettyellen]

105. so you think they are both wrong and wasting their time, and I'm the one attacking them?

I'm actually saying much more supportive things than you are. I hope they find a focus, and do dome actual work on policy recommendations or something in Europe, and stop wasting all this press.

Not much of a fan of the LW are you?

[LittleBlue]

109. I'm not attacking them

I just don't think they will achieve anything, looking at things dispassionately. No clue what LW means.

To me, it's important that we support freedom of expression without exception. Especially the right to protest without being shouted down, shamed or thrown in the back of armored vans by gendarmes.

[bettyellen]

110. oh, well we agree about everything then. HA. go figure.

i didn't see anyone here say they shouldn't have the right to do this- that's awful. IF it happened.
Which I sincerely doubt.

[LittleBlue]

117. I won't speak for you

But a contingent on here began to loathe FEMEN when they realized that some men *shock* might have liked looking at them naked. I don't know if they hate FEMEN, or if FEMEN just became their substitutes at which to channel anger.

It's a bizarre, borderline voyeuristic obsession that leads one to not take them seriously.

[riderinthestorm]

108. Cindy Sheehan comes to mind - nothing more than a simple "slogan".

Mohamed Bouazizi is another - he lost his life having one single protest action with one single message about Tunisia's dictator.

There are many, many "activists" who begin movements with no "action plan". In fact, I'd say many many mass movements have started out with a single individual who never knew what would come from it. It usually takes a while for a movement to coalesce - why is it FEMEN has to be a mature organization right out of the gate? Why can't they start with simple slogans like Cindy Sheehan?

Your sneering dismissal of these folks is noted however.

[bettyellen]

115. Wont even sneer when you compare them to Sheehan, who had very detailed criticism of Bush's foreign

policy, ran for congress, founded an organization dedicated to a clear purpose, gave articulate anti war speeches which educated hundreds of thousand of people... she was much more than a slogan. Her famous photo ops- Casey's boots and later the row of crosses at Crawford were iconic images that spurred thousands of people into to action.

Yeah, lady protesters, they're all the same. LOL.

[riderinthestorm]

123. All of which evolved out of a slow start with a single slogan.

Yeah, thank gawd all lady protesters are NOT the same.

When Cindy started she had no idea where her action would go and its beyond disingenuous to say she had an "action plan" before she started.

Most don't. In fact Carolyn Lightner's simple message at the beginning was simply to raise awareness about the devastation of drunk driving. When MADD began to become politicized, changed the core message, and took more direct action like crafting legislation she actually left the organization after leading it for the first 5 years because she really DID want MADD to simply be about raising awareness.

Its bullshit that ALL protesters must have some kind of action plan or their protest isn't authentic. Authentic enough for who? You?

Sometimes education and messaging is all its about and that's okay.

[bettyellen]

93. actually, it's people like me and other activists who find this an interesting topic to discuss...

instead of blindly kissing ass because you really don't have any experience to compare it to.... or even- if we are being real here- give a shit about the issue.

it's not hard to tell the difference who this matters to and who's just being a contrarian for sport. it's pretty obvious.

[opiate69]

98. Yes.. contrarian for sport...

you mean like the "genius" upthread who insists that Tunisia isn't a Muslim country, despite the Constitution clearly stating so?

[bettyellen]

99. If you're going to host Oppression Olympics for Islamic women, perhaps you and Femen could recuse

yourselves from judging. LOL.

[opiate69]

100. Derp..

[DirkGently]

83. They seem to be delivering a message. Giving a fair listen would be a start.

My first impression was of Amina Tyler, the Tunisian woman who received death threats for posting topless pictures of herself with a socio-political message attached to it.

I think it's a valid statement and I've seen very poor reasoning on DU in attacking it as "pornification" and such.

If there's a different issue about Western women purporting to speak for Muslims, that's one thing, but it's not the whole thing. This woman was talking about her own culture and the fact that she was demeaned and threatened over pretty much makes her point irrefutable.

[bettyellen]

90. I'm trying to figure out if they have any realistic goals or message..Ending religion's influence on

women is a great idea. It's also so vague and utopian it's very hard to take them seriously.

Usually when you have a protest- it's to highlight an action plan and work toward changes- lacking that- how are they helping anyone achieve ANY progress? Are they actually working on anything? The website is pretty vague, not much to do but look at pics (kind of reminded me of the Spice Girls) but maybe it doesn't translate well into English.

[randome]

116. Sometimes the medium is the message.

Being arrested for the crime of being topless while female is probably part of what they're trying to highlight.

[bettyellen]

119. not much of a message then. :shrug:

[randome]

125. Obviously YOU don't care that men ORDER you to remain clothed at all times.

But I imagine some find it...restraining. And emblematic of the other orders handed down by the Patriarchy.

If nothing else, it's a show of defiance.

[bettyellen]

130. ha ha, you do realize, men are ALSO ordered to keep clothes on, right? yeah. No one's #1 issue....

As much as some hoped it was, the right to go topless isn't the number one. It's merely symbolic.
of more serious issues we've all been aware of for years, I think.

[riderinthestorm]

135. Sorry but this is getting old. Amina doesn't need you to tell her @ her message

That is fucked up.

You really ARE sneering at her you know when you persist in denigrating her protest.

She obviously felt this was a way to get her message across. She certainly has generated a LOT of global interest in Tunisia's slide towards female oppression since the regime was toppled and if that's ALL she does, it will be a magnificent action. How dare you decide that it's "not much". And you want to slam Eurocentric feminists when you've just decided this Muslim woman's protest in a Muslim country isn't "much"?

That just really sucks and honestly, says a whole hell of a lot more about you and your so called "activism" than anything else.

[bettyellen]

171. i'm sorry if you confuse indifference towards this protest with sneering at a person

but that's a fucked up leap your brain just took. not going there with you.
if anyone is "sneering" at this point, I'd say it was you. Get a grip.

[muriel_volestrangler]

216. The thread starter is sneering at her, in reply #19

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022625002#post19

redqueen isn't indifferent - she started this thread to publicise the criticism of Amina, and joined in that criticism.

[bettyellen]

217. a shocking one off display to capture PR = a stunt

and I think we all do hope she doesn't set back the movement that already exists there - a more realistic concern than the "stoning" bullshit others used to justify their faux outrage.

and it was I she referred to as sneering.

[muriel_volestrangler]

218. Of course, the people who set up the Facebook page are at the University of Birmingham in the UK

while Amina is in Tunisia. I think the threat of stoning, made by the head of a legally recognised Tunisian organisation cannot be dismissed as 'bullshit'. OK, you're sneering now - calling the stoning threat 'bullshit', and claiming that condemning it is 'faux outrage'.

[bettyellen]

233. i'm calling the heap of faux outrage here bullshit.

the ignorance paired with faux concern here is an embarrassment to DU.

[redqueen]

223. bettyellen, I gotta hand it to ya... you don't give up.

When people start in with disinformation and word twisting, IMO they turn any attempt at having a discussion with them into a waste of time.

Referring to quotes from a former leader of Tunisia as "some blogger", seizing on the word "stunt" and freaking out as if I'd called her some sexist slur like "bimbo" (which I'm sure the same people have no issue with as long as they don't like the woman being slurred), pretending that observing that calling a woman a nasty name and observing that some men treat women like said nasty names are the same thing, etc.

It's all a game to them. When that shit starts, I don't even bother. Some people are not here for honest discussion. They are only interested in playing the same idiotic games.

[opiate69]

234. Speaking of word twisting.. one simple question, oh great one..

is Tunisia currently a Muslim country, yes or no?

[DirkGently]

127. I don't know. I thought Amina's photo was a thing unto itself.

Just as a personal statement, I thought it worked, and the sadly predictable crazed negative attention supported her premise, in that apparently a lot of people think it's not her body and it IS about someone else's honor.

I don't know about inciting a fracas at a Mosque. Sooner or later religion in general, and Islam more than some others, will have to deal with the fact that they don't get to tell women what to do with their bodies or that they'll be tortured or murdered if someone gets a glimpse of their ankles or breasts or what have you.

I was surprised to see the amount of hostility directed at Amina here on DU as though she were cheapening the cause or something. It was a concise, self-proving, artistic act. We have more deserving people to yell at.

[bettyellen]

132. i agree in many ways- but I don't think that the animosity was towards Amina herself,

as much as the fucked up (not in quotes) headline "If women have to show their tits, so be it" that was an issue.
And also whether or not this kind of show boating does local women more harm than good.
Both debatable, and worthy of discussion in all articles posted, but everyone who tried to discuss this here at DU were immediately attacked by a swarm by people who usually deny the patriarchy even exists, LOL. Suddenly everyone is a feminist. So, a lot of that was disingenuous nonsense.
Discussing these things has nothing to do with wanting to stop her, or prudishness at all. Never did. Anyone who claims that is 100% full of shit.

[DirkGently]

137. You read that post, though, right? It didn't take the tone the headline suggests.

Who goes apeshit over a headline without reading what's below it? And what is "pornification" (might be a paraphrase)?

The picture had nothing to do with selling sexuality or cheapening dignity. It was the opposite. She raised a middle finger to whatever little heads would explode because she put her body out there in a completely thoughtful, harmless way.

I thought it was a great shot at patriarchy. Maybe brash or in-your-face, but I then I like those. That such a simple thing could even create such an uproar perfectly illustrated a specific problem.

Fuck anyone who thinks she's not allowed to say that, or say it in that way.

[bettyellen]

152. I found the headline pretty offensive, but didn't go apeshit, LOL.

But I got attacked for questioning whether it's the best way to go. Or, if the attention you're getting is worth it if no one actually reads the article or has no way to support your effort. I was accused of being outraged, and called names just for wondering if it's an effective method. Yet the article posted was talking about the same things. Funny, huh?

I was berated by a bunch of people who basically didn't give a shit about Tunisia until the protest bothered someone they don't like. (not me) So a few suddenly pretended to believe patriarchy does exist (in the ME, anyway) and feminist battles (overseas only, I guess) are suddenly really really important! They came to the conclusion that if you're a white woman in America, you have first world problems, and are not allowed to have opinions on methods of feminist protests- even if your opinions are similar to the ones posted in the article. LOL.

So, the dust up was basically a bunch of bullshit created to attack a few people here who are routinely targeted and lots of others get dragged into it. There were a few genuine people trying to discuss issues, but it made it really hard when people are calling names and flinging bullshit about authoritarian prudishness. Yeah, that kind of nonsense happens every time a few feminists try and have a discussion here.

[polly7]

159. Who are you trying to kid?

People here haven't been paying attention to Tunisia? Have you forgotten about Mohamed Bouazizi? You need to read back through the board for the last two and a half years .... the revolution, Arab Spring, none of that ring a bell? There are probably hundreds of threads here concerning Tunisia.

Nobody cares about Amina, or the current Tunisian gov't wanting to roll back human (especially women's) rights, it's all just plain disrespect for a few HOF members. I dunno, but I think you should seriously reconsider what you just said there.

[bettyellen]

163. would you please stop stalking me? Thank you.

[polly7]

164. Grow up. nt.

[idwiyo]

225. And yet every single one of posters who disagree with FEMEN can't stop talking about nudity, menz

and boobies. Thread, after thread, after thread... What gives?

[bettyellen]

228. Article after article posted about Femen- all about their boobies. We were OT.

That is 90% of the press they get has big pics and wonders if anyone gets their message, which is usually a few vague slogans and an afterthought.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. Is there any evidence that "Muslimah Pride Day" is organised by feminists?

Rather than being organised by women who don't like Femen?

The one feminist in a Muslim country that we can name in all this, Amina Tyler, is pro-Femen.

[JVS]

84. +1

[stevenleser]

120. Sure, the politicians pushing for Sharia law in Tunisia will tell you so, just ask them.

In case it is necessary.

[backscatter712]

87. Phyllis Schlafly wasn't grateful to fellow American women for their efforts to pass the ERA.

What do you call the woman equivalent of an Uncle Tom?

[sufrommich]

88. Actually Schlafly would have welcomed comments like

"Christian women are stupid" from the second wave feminists during the fight to pass the ERA. It would have served her well.

[sufrommich]

95. 5 Myths About Feminism In The Middle East:

http://arabiangazette.com/5-myths-about-feminism-in-middle-east/

Myth V: You can’t be both religious and a feminist

Yes you can! That’s all you need to say to people who perpetuate this myth. Feminism is needed within religion because we need to destroy patriarchy, and religion is often misconstrued to be against equality. Many religious clerics base their antagonism toward feminism from biological differences between men and women, and use that as an argument, which is inherently flawed because our differences do not amount to being treated as inferior or superior. Equality does not mean that women and men have to be identical, and clerics that perpetuate this myth should be confronted for propagating falsehood.


Being anti Islam plays right into the fundamentalist clerics hands.

[MellowDem]

149. No you can't...

Not if you want to have any shred of intellectual honesty and don't want to engage in cognitive dissonance.

Islam is fundamentally anti-women. It's in the religious texts.

There is nothing wrong with being anti-any religion that fundamentally supports bigotry. Until people get over their fear of criticizing religion and begin breaking down this ridiculous privilege that religion gets, not much will change.

The Muslim FEMEN counterprotesters are simply defending their bigoted religion while trying to pretend it's not inherently bigoted. They look silly doing so, because it's obvious cognitive dissonance.

[99Forever]

103. K&R

In spades.

[LittleBlue]

104. +2

They're angry that a man, somewhere got an erection. FEMEN would have been fine if men weren't taking photos and enjoying the view.

[arely staircase]

106. count me as another to agree with you for the first... well the second time actually

despite our occasional mutual animosity you are right about this one. the femen thing reeks of culturally imperialistic thinking.

[Rex]

112. Not all feminists speak for each other as can be seen with the

many groups on DU. I see there are many agendas trying to be put across by several different groups.

[randome]

118. .

[polly7]

114. An interesting comment:

Moshan Th_Ph • a day ago ?
They are brave. A lot of feminists who go after Islamists get shit from other leftists for being 'racist'. I see it here in Europe all the time. The price paid is that a lot of young women, 2nd generation immigrants, are not allowed to move or think freely. They are seen as cattle to be married off to men they have never seen or have no real interest in getting to know either.

There are feminists - often Arab women themselves who have been through that hell - who have set up organizations who fight this. But they are still fightning an upwards hill by being condemned by the rest of the mainstream left for 'islamophobia'. I'd prefer to have the Islamists as enemies; at least they are open about their venom. It's the false equivalency, the cowardice and the anti-Western hypocrisy that I cannot stand from people who claim to be liberals but are anything but.

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/04/femen-stages-a-topless-jihad/100487/

[muriel_volestrangler]

129. Faked photo of Femen using antisemitic slogans posted to the anti-Femen Facebook page

So the Muslim Women Against Femen page posted a faked-up picture of Femen with a Holocaust denial written on one woman’s chest.

The unfaked up picture.


They’ve taken it down now, since they got caught at it.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/04/down-in-the-muck/

What tactic does that remind me of? Oh yes, when the Muslim preachers protesting against the Danish Mohammed cartoons added a fake one of a man in a pig mask, just to increase the outrage.

[Warren DeMontague]

131. Right. "The Shoah is a Hoax"... Like they'd be putting Holocaust Denial on there.

Like that's not a fringe, insane position held by a tiny minority of extremists who mostly only talk to themselves. (gee, that sounds familiar!)

These people- the anti-femen folks and their boob-panicked enablers- REALLY live in a bubble.

[bettyellen]

140. are they only anti Islam and Catholic then? From what I read it appears they want to destroy

rather than reform those institutions. All I can say is, good luck with that!

[bettyellen]

155. just asking an honest "question". I saw they protested the pope. And cannot find it now, but read

that they are vehemently anti- muslim. not that I think they "do nuance" to the extent that they'd be proposing any reforms. or that anyone would listen if they did.
i'm not a fan of religion either, it just seems like they have a radical, and fairly unworkable approach and wondered if it was against all religions.
perhaps the crazed photo shopper figured if they could outrage even more "people of faith" this way? what a weird gambit. creating an Interfaith Alliance against them!

[bettyellen]

162. well they ARE extremist when it comes to Islam, so I guess they thought it would be credible.

crazy!

[bettyellen]

167. Not at all having a contest here, but totally hating a religion is extremist also, no?

Just hazarding a guess as to why some one else (the photoshopper) would think anyone would find that Holocaust Denial shit at all credible.

[bettyellen]

174. I said SOMEONE ELSE (someone awful!) might think that. Wax in the ears?

stop putting words in my mouth.

[bettyellen]

178. you seemed dense.

you didn't need to keep repeating that false equivalency crap when I was clearly trying to figure out why someone would try to do such a stupid hateful thing.

[bettyellen]

182. it's telling how people are trying to use the issue to slime people here- for having opinions!

It's really odd how people posted articles that were largely about the method of protest, and debating whether it would be effective....and were *SHOCKED I TELL YOU* that people on the threads also expressed varying opinions on the subject of the article. Apparently there are some newly minted authoritarian feminists here who think people should be monolithic in their thinking and support everything without any discussion.

Not sure why anyone should be angry at anyone for sharing their thoughts here- in between the bullshit outrage and sudden obsession with supporting *a certain method of protest, of all things* I saw a lot of varied and interesting posts on the subject.

Same shit, different day!

[bettyellen]

185. that is funny- everyone knows you can't control a porn star!

Last edited Sat Apr 6, 2013, 11:40 PM - Edit history (1)

that's what remote controls are for!

[Douglas Carpenter]

138. with any tactic-one needs to ask -"Do you want to ventilate or do you want to advance your cause?"

Whatever the cause - and whatever the tactic it does more good to find tactics that actually advance one's cause than tactics that appeal to the emotions of some hardcore true believers but harm the cause over all.

[JI7]

142. I think They are Similar to the Anti Mosque Protestors in the United States

their issue is with the religion itself. and just like the anqi mosque people bring up things like 9/11 as reasons for their protests these women do the same by bringing up horrible things done by muslims to oppose the religion.

remember the quron burning people here ?

i'm pro choice but in America we don't keep these rights by going to churches, temples etc and yelling "fuck the pope" "catholic women get naked " etc.

[opiate69]

143. Well.. in America...

We don't have 1800 or so years of the Catholic Church meddling in our lives either..

[JI7]

145. the united states hasn't been around for 1800 years, but on issues like abortion, gay rights

especially gay rights they are part of the reason we haven't moved as far ahead as where we should be . not just catholics but mormons and other religions also. the amish usually support republicans but i wouldn't try to get their support by getting naked and telling them their religon sucks and i think they wear odd clothes or beards are weird even if i did think that.

[opiate69]

148. Then, the average American probably can't understand the depth of anger some Europeans have

in regards to the Catholic church.

[JI7]

150. that is true , most americans are way too religious

although things seem to be moving the other way . but we aren't where most of europe is.

[opiate69]

151. So then, leaving the nudity aside, I for one can completely understand the comments about the pope,

etc.

[JI7]

153. i would criticize saying "fuck the pope" as a way to win over support

of catholics or even others who would just find it offensive.

[opiate69]

154. Everybody thinks the "opposing team's" protest tactics are a bad way to win support.

[bettyellen]

158. and some think other people on our "team" have half assed strategy

[The Straight Story]

161. "You know that there's something wrong with your protest when..."

You know that there's something wrong with your protest when its ardent supporters find it appropriate to repeatedly call the women they are "saving" stupid and to affirm that they have no capacity for making decisions of their own.

You know there is something wrong with your protests online against fellow posters when...

Stop dictating women that they need to be nude to be free, that's just as bad as men dictating them to be covered."

Amen - we need more people to stop dictating to others what they think and feel.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

166. I used to be a feminist

That is, I thought I was a feminist, until I was informed by the OP that men cannot be feminists, by definition. So now I'm a fem-pal, or somesuch thing (actually, I'm still a feminist, because I reject ridiculous notions such as this). Anyhow, once all of this is adjudicated, would one of the Real True Feminists tell me if I'm supposed to like FEMEN or not? I'm inclined to like them and what they're doing, but I've learned (again, here) that it's just my partiality to mammary glands that makes me like them. Now I'm reading in this thread that these are bad European women who are just trying to get all up in Muslim women's business. Oh, and by the way, Tunisia is a secular paradise where Imams never have bad ideas. I don't think I'm the only one confused about all of this petty anger. Maybe if protesting women exposed a single breast while protesting, everyone would be happy. Maybe not.

[opiate69]

168. ThreadWin!

[bettyellen]

169. it's controversial. you should feel free to read up on it, discuss and sort out your feelings here

there is no easy answer, and no monolithic authoritarian telling you how you must feel about it.
only people talking about how they feel. hope you feel better now!

[JI7]

176. are you not able to read up and find things out yourself and explain why you

have a certain position ?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

177. I'm able to make the point I want to make

[TimberValley]

172. Social activists can often be extremely, unintentionally, arrogant.

This is true of many feminists. It's the whole "We are here to lift you out of your ignorance and backwardness" attitude. The idea that they have to help people whom they perceive as downtrodden because those people somehow just don't know better.

[Bonobo]

189. Surprisingly, they also object when Westerners protest stoning people to death. nt

[BainsBane]

203. really?

These exact same women? What proof do you have of that?

[Bonobo]

204. No, I did not mean those women.

I meant to make the point that simply because one segment of a population objects to having Westerners criticize it -does not invalidate such criticism.

If Westerners criticize Islamic countries for stoning people to death, the same argument that is being made here -namely that it is condescending for Westerners to criticize other cultures in a Patriarchal manner -could be made against such critiques.

[BainsBane]

205. How about this?

Instead of preaching at women, or any activist group, to tell them what they should care about--in this case clothing--how about listening to what their concerns actually are? Is it just possible they might be slightly more concerned with drone strikes wiping out their families than what a bunch of culturally imperialistic Westerners think about how they dress?

[Bonobo]

206. BB, if you are suggesting that all criticism and protesting should be done by prioritization...

Then we need to look no further than DU to see that our priorities are oddly out of line.

Your argument, that what one group protests should be based on a prioritization, would result in issues such as "micro-aggression" or "cruelty to animals" or "school lunch programs" being shoved aside in favor of global climate issues or the threat of wide-spread plagues and the like.

[BainsBane]

207. my suggestion is that peoples have a right to self-determination

that we don't get to decide what women or other groups in other countries should care about. My beef here is with blatant cultural imperialism, scorn about their cultures by people who pay taxes to fund the slaughter of Muslims in many nations, while still having the gall to consider themselves superior. Don't you find that a bit ironic?

Whatever those women want to prioritize is fine with me. I think we would do well to support their goals rather than demeaning their culture and invalidating their concerns.

Your new picture is throwing me off. I always picture you as looking like that other avatar.

[Bonobo]

208. Honestly? I am conflicted.

It is sort of an imperialistic mindset to push one's cultural values onto another, BUT BUT BUT...

There is a limit to my appreciation of cultural exceptionalism. Here is a fine example.
----------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_James_Napier

When General Napier was the Governor of the Bombay province in India, he outlawed Sati, the practice in which wives set themselves on fire at their husbands' funerals.

A story for which Napier is often noted involved Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati by British authorities. This was the custom of burning a widow alive on the funeral pyre of her husband. As first recounted by his brother William, he replied:

"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

As for my avatar change, I love both Vonnegut and Byrne equally.

[BainsBane]

209. fair enough

I have to go with you in such examples, but that's not what's at issue here. We're talking about some Muslim women opposing FEMEN's focus on veiling. As a general principal, I say we need to respect the priorities of indigenous activist groups rather than imposing our own on them. That is not the same as condoning horrific human rights abuses. Obviously there are lines that have to be drawn. Clothing is far from that line.

I didn't realize that other photo was David Byrne.

[Bonobo]

211. Okay, I don't disagree with your statement of principles on that.

But let me suggest that the Islamic women arguing that they just love burqas and face veils may NOT be represent of everyone's opinion in those cultures.

I think it is evident that the woman who stand up and say "No, we love our burqas" will face no kickbacks and retaliations because they are "being good women who know their place" while the women who MAY BE against the burqas and the things that go along with it are UNABLE to speak out because of the recriminations and danger they would face.

It is ironic to find us on opposing sides of this. And when the Islamic bloggers complain that Fenem "took their voice away", I also find it ironic because it is obvious that many women in the Muslim countries who may oppose the restrictions they are under already DO NOT HAVE A VOICE.

Are you not possibly discounting the lack of freedom that they have to speak out and thus "over-listening" to the ones that are ALLOWED to speak?

Yes, David Byrne. One of my absolutely most favorite humans.

[BainsBane]

212. I dispute the point they don't have a voice

Unless you're talking about a couple of the most oppressive countries, that is not the case. There are women's activist groups throughout the Muslim world, even in areas dominated by Sharia law. You mistake, I think, your own awareness of issues with their having a voice. Just because Western media doesn't cover their activism does not mean they are not engaged in it.

Here is a list of a few a quick Google search turned up: http://www.wisemuslimwomen.org/activism/#directory

[Bonobo]

213. By definition, the ones without a voice would be the ones not speaking.

And you even admit above that the most oppressive countries do not allow their women to have a voice.

So then who is (allowed) to speak for those without a voice? And how can you accept the protests of SOME Muslim women over the protests of others?

It is a wash since some Muslims oppose burqa et al. while others do not.

[BainsBane]

215. I don't really agree that women have no voice anywhere

You may not hear that voice, but that doesn't mean they don't exercise it. I know of some women in an area under Sharia law that carve out a space for resistance within that oppressive structure. They take advantage of the fact military police will not search a woman to smuggle guns under their burqas for revolutionary opposition. They work with the men in their families who stay hidden and transfer weapons and munitions to arm an independence movement. That is not to say they have the full range of ability to express their views as women elsewhere, but they are nonetheless politically active, far more so than you or I.

What perplexes me is how anxious you are to privilege the voices of some young European feminists over Muslim women. My core belief is that if you don't respect a people, you are only going to do them harm. Statements like "fuck he Qur'an reveal as much contempt for Muslim women as Muslim men. I really don't see it as much different ideologically from the neoliberal determination to deny political self-determination and instead justify war for the purposes of redeeming the poor benighted Muslim people through so-called democracy. Enter, war in Iraq. Enough looking down our noses at people across the world. Who are we to pass judgment? We are a highly militaristic society with the highest incarceration rate in the world. We are one of a handful of nations that exercise state sanctioned murder through the death penalty, and we have one of the greatest income disparities in the world. I don't believe we are fit to pass judgment on other cultures. It's not for me to determine what is best for women in Tunisia, Kandahar, or Cairo. They have every bit as much of a right to make those determinations as I do, and I refuse to treat them with less respect that I expect myself.

To view the veil as entirely oppressive is ignorant and ethnocentric. It's meaning is far more complex. It is decidedly contested, but not nearly as one dimensional as many here imagine. There is a body of academic literature on the subject: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=muslim+veil&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C24&as_sdtp=

I also happen to know women in my state of Minnesota who choose to veil. There are also native white Minnesotans who convert to Islam and veil. While I confess to feeling a bit perplexed when I see them, I recognize it is their choice. Certainly many women do not veil by choice, but some do. Muslims for me are not a foreign and strange other. I have Muslim friends and work with many others. I have met Muslim women artists from Egypt, art historians from Iran, dancers and scholars from Indonesia, as well as many Muslim men-- Arab, African, and Persian--who are filmmakers, artists, and scholars. I'm successful in working with them because I don't share the kind of prejudice toward their religion and ethnicity that is so common in the West, as some have specifically told me. As a result, I see this issue quite differently from many here.

[idwiyo]

224. The irony! It burns! By your own words: "instead of preaching to women, or any activist group,

to tell them what they should care about -" in this case telling FEMEN how to protest, what they should be protesting about, what kind of message they should be sending, and how protesting naked is all about menz and boobies, you just go and start protesting yourself. Preferably IRL, where it really counts.

There. How about that? Also, if you know how they should be protesting to be more effective, why aren't you there leading by example? It's doubtful they are even aware of existence of DU (being Euro-centric and stuff). Please, go forth and show them. What's keeping you?