Math problems are a problem for job-seekers, employers say

[FarCenter]

Before job-seekers fill out an application for work making foam products for the aerospace industry at General Plastics Manufacturing Co. in Tacoma, Wash., they have to take a math test. Eighteen questions, 30 minutes, and using a calculator is OK.

They are asked how to convert inches to feet, read a tape measure and find the density of a block of foam (mass divided by volume).

Basic middle school math, right?

But what troubles General Plastics executive Eric Hahn is that although the company considers only prospective workers who have a high school education, only one in 10 who take the test pass. And that's not just bad luck at a single factory or in a single industry.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-math-problems-problem-job-seekers-employers.html

[SpearthrowerOwl]

1. I have a suggestion.

They could pay more to receive more adequately skilled workers.

Meanwhile the market for degree carrying scientists is flooded. There are more degrees served annually in the US currently than at any point in history. It's easy to scapegoat the bad economy and declining US science sector (why do we look at the space shuttle in awe? the thing is over 40 years old....) on lack of qualified scientists in the US, but it's blatantly untrue. Meanwhile, I get out of college with my BS in physics and sit woefully unemployed.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover a conscious effort by big business to encourage the flood of the science sector with new graduates as an attempt to lower salaries of "highly paid scientists" by market manipulation.


If they were truly serious about math skills being too low for low wage positions, they wouldn't be trying to stamp out algebra requirements at public schools in Texas.

[hobbit709]

3. Maybe if schools went back to teaching the material instead of teaching how to take a test.

People might learn something.

[SpearthrowerOwl]

5. I agree

Of course, standardized testing has the obvious purpose of keeping The People's History of the United States out of classrooms and mandate that we teach factoids about unimportant presidents in its stead.

[lunasun]

88. +100

Victims of crap like "Everyday Mathematics" no doubt
I have tried to explain this here before but then folks comment like its just me or my kids - A students who cant do math
and as I predicted these people will be in the workforce now with terrible math skills
What color is the number 9??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyday_Mathematics

a nerdy high school math teacher I know has been keeping all his entry test results he gives kids the first day to see where they are at and through the years, it is a down hill line -new kids are worse than the year before every year

[Scootaloo]

132. Wouldn't that be nice?

But when the testing system is in place expressly to create poor performance so to give justification for ending public schooling...

[RedCappedBandit]

157. Thread could have ended right here.

[Puzzledtraveller]

193. The purely academic approach to instruction is a problem

I don't know if it's changed but there was no learning based on practical application when I was in school.

[AndyA]

226. Or perhaps take the focus off of sports, and put it back on education

I'm tired of hearing how schools need more money for things like books, computers, more teachers, etc., when they've just finished building a multi-million dollar gymnasium or stadium. Even if some of the money was donated for its construction, the focus should be on providing a quality education, not on building a bigger, better, faster, quarterback.

[lastlib]

230. ***DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!*** WINNER! WINNER!

You nailed it right there, AndyA!! We don't support real academics, but, boy, we support them thar ath-a-letics!! YES! We're Athletic Supporters!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

236. +1

[FarCenter]

4. They are not looking to hire scientists, just basic manufacturing machine operators

"Manufacturers are willing to train people about the specifics of their machines and technology," said Linda Nguyen, CEO of Work Force Central, a partnership of government, business, education and community organizations that trains workers in Tacoma and surrounding Pierce County. "But they can't afford to hire someone who needs to relearn basic math."

[SpearthrowerOwl]

6. my post was maybe confusing

The first and last part of my post is what was immediately relavent to the post. The middle stuff was less relavent just "food for thought" stuff I think people on this forum would be interested in as far as the grand scheme of things go.

If these companies needed more skills in their workers, they would pay more. Or so the free market says. You can be the judge about whether or not we live in a free market society or something much more rough around the edges with people that don't make rational decisions.

[oldhippie]

18. The company appears to be paying enough to attract .....

..... a number of high school graduates to apply to take the test.

Don't you think a high school graduate should be able to easily do the tasks mentioned? Converting inches to feet? Calculating density? Really? The problem seems to be high school graduates that cannot perform grade school math, not that they aren't paying enough. Do they need to pay enough to attract college graduate math majors to do grade school math?

[TheMightyFavog]

23. This is as good an argument as any for us to go Metric.

Converting from Meters to Centimeters, moving the decimal point. Easiest thing to do in math.

Let's embrace a system based in science, not something as arbitrarlily stupid as the length of a long dead English king's foot.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Yes. It is simply not reasonable to expect people to be able to multiply and divide by 12.

Even when they are allowed to use a calculator.

[Fumesucker]

30. Fractional inches don't involve twelve, they involve powers of 2

2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512 and so on.

Somehow I suspect you might not do that well on the test yourself.

[Nye Bevan]

31. I think you're right. Sixteenths of an inch is far, far beyond my powers of comprehension (nt)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. USA lost $1 billion Mars probe because a critical measurement wasn't converted between metric and

USA lost $1 billion Mars probe because a critical measurement wasn't converted between metric and so-called 'standard' units.

You can be an anti-metric snob if you like, but the fact of the matter is that it is high time the US got with the program and joined the 20th century.

What happened to the USA that used to be a leader and is now a drag on the world? That's how empires crumble.

[FarCenter]

70. It depends. My machinist 6" rule has 16ths and 32nds on one side and 10ths and 50ths on the other.

Mechanical drawings in inches can have fractions or decimals.

[X_Digger]

76. Never mind a dial caliper. ;) n/t

[Fumesucker]

92. I've got one of those also, and two dial calipers

But that's a fairly specialized instrument and you're still talking powers of ten rather then 12 anyway.

It's a freaking wonder anything ever gets built to spec given our chaotic measurement system.

[HiPointDem]

82. 1.6 minutes per question, including reading the directions and problems.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

110. People who can't read a tape measure in 96 seconds are not fit to be trained as machinists and

People who can't read a tape measure in 96 seconds are not fit to be trained as machinists and should never have graduated high school.

Reading a tape measure is not rocket science.

[oldhippie]

196. You are so right ....

So much of this whole thread is about not paying enough to attract the proper talent, or how if you don't measure things very often then you can't remember how to use a tape measure.

I say BS. It doesn't matter what the pay is. The point is that only 1 in 10 HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES can pass a simple grade school arithmetic skills test.

And even worse, the argument that it takes continual practice to be able to figure out how to measure things with a tape measure or measuring spoons just blows my mind. Reading a ruler, or tape measure, whether in English or metric units, doesn't take training or experience, or continual practice, it takes INTELLECT. That is what seems to be sadly lacking, in both high school graduates, and posters in this thread, and today's society in general.

This whole thread has made me very depressed. I begin to lose hope for the future of our society. The only thing that helps me is that I did work as an engineering mentor with a high school competitive robotics team (USFIRST) for about 8 years. So I do know that there are a few bright kids out there that have the intellect to carry on some semblance of an advancement of knowledge and be able to design and manufacture beneficial products. But they are only about 5% of the student population, far too few.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

197. Thank you. You put your finger on the simple basic logic at point and expose the pay straw man. nt

[Fumesucker]

199. And a super majority of successful professionals who took the HS graduation exam failed it miserably

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022539171

SUPER MAJORITY OF ACCOMPLISHED PROFESSIONALS SCORE BELOW DIPLOMA THRESHOLD

Members of the student activist group the Providence Student Union (PSU) released the results of this weekend’s “Take the Test” event today. Of the 50 accomplished adults who took a shortened, sample version of the Math NECAP exam, 60% scored at a level that would put them at risk of not graduating under Rhode Island’s new diploma system.

“In total, 50 people—successful elected officials, attorneys, scientists, engineers, reporters, college professors, and directors of leading nonprofits—took a sample version of the Math portion of the New England Common Assessment Program that we put together from released items on RIDE’s website,” said Darren Fleury, a junior at Central High School and a member of PSU.

“According to RIDE’s scoring guidelines, 4 of these 50 people would have scored ‘proficient with distinction,’ 7 would have scored ‘proficient,’ 9 would have scored ‘partially proficient,’ and 30 individuals—or 60%—would have scored ‘substantially below proficient,’ meaning they did not get a high enough score to receive a diploma.”

The Providence Student Union’s “Take the Test” event was the latest component of a campaign that students—along with parents and other community members—have been organizing against a new Rhode Island policy that turns the state’s main standardized test, the NECAP, into a make-or-break barrier to graduation.

“My eyes have been opened,” said Teresa Tanzi, a State Representative from Wakefield and a participant in Saturday’s “Take the Test” event. “As one of the many capable and relatively accomplished participants who scored ‘substantially below proficient’ on this exercise, I do believe this points to a problem with our state’s new diploma system. The fact that a majority of very successful adults—nearly all of whom have completed college and many of whom have advanced degrees—cannot meet this requirement should make us reconsider whether a NECAP score, on its own, is an appropriate arbiter for a high school graduation decision.”

“This is a fundamental misuse of this measurement tool,” explained Tom Sgouros, a policy analyst who also took the test. “The original goal of NECAP was to evaluate schools, and, to some extent, students within the schools. In order to make a reliable ranking among schools, you need to ensure that the differences between one school and another are statistically significant. To do that, the statistics demand that you design it to ensure that a significant number of students will flunk. If every student passed this test, they would redesign it. That’s what it means to be a diagnostic tool. To attach high-stakes to such an exam is simply an abuse of the tool, and one that will have real consequences for many young people.”

Priscilla Rivera, a junior at Hope High School and a PSU member, offered additional context to the results. “Of course, it is true that many of these professionals who participated in our event had not been prepared to take the test,” she said. “But our point is, neither have we. For 10, 11, or 12 years we have been taught to different standards. We have not been following a curriculum aligned with this test, and we are trapped in an education system that is failing to give us the education we deserve. If it does not make sense to punish adults for not being prepared to take this particular test, we believe it does not make sense to punish us for not having been effectively taught this material over a period of years. Give us a good education, not a test!”

[Bernardo de La Paz]

204. People wanting to succeed in the 21st century need more skills than lawyers educated in the 20th.

People wanting to succeed in the 21st century need more skills than lawyers educated in the 20th.

It is no wonder that statehouse representatives would fail a 21st century math test years after they got their
20th century education that let them succeed in non-technical areas in the 20th century.

The representative who failed has never held a productive job; has always worked in politics; no mention of her ever going to college or getting a degree.

This is not your father's math requirements.

Teresa Tanzi

Jonnycake Center Hunger Task Force Member
Wakefield Downtown Merchants Association Member
Friends of Canonchet
Former South Kingstown Economic Development Committee Member
Former Ocean State Action Executive Committee Vice President
Former Broad Rock Community Garden Vice Chair
Peace Dale Neighborhood Revitalization, Inc Member
Former WRNI Public Radio Community Advisory Council
Past South County Chapter Chair and Executive Board Member, RI National Organization for Women (RI NOW)
Narragansett Chamber of Commerce
Lived in Narragansett, currently resides in Wakefield
Mother of six-year-old daughter, Delia
Wife of Eric Buchbaum, podiatrist and partner in Shoreline Podiatry, Wakefield, and Medical Director of the Wound Care Center at South County Hospital

[Bernardo de La Paz]

205. (posted reply to wrong post)

[Fumesucker]

211. That was one person of fifty

How about the CVs of all the rest of them?

Frankly I think the key attribute to success in business is the ability to bullshit your way into opportunity, I've seen it happen more times than I could possibly count where the person who actually gets the job done is ignored (at best) and the person who sucks up to the boss gets the promotions and money.

I think the person you just referred to is an excellent example that it's not math, science and logic that will get you far in society but rather the ability to schmooze at high levels.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

213. Well, it was the person highlighted in the article who seems to want to dilute the test. nt

Frankly I think the key attribute to success in business is the ability to bullshit your way into opportunity, I've seen it happen more times than I could possibly count where the person who actually gets the job done is ignored (at best) and the person who sucks up to the boss gets the promotions and money.

I think the person you just referred to is an excellent example that it's not math, science and logic that will get you far in society but rather the ability to schmooze at high levels.

There's an element of truth to that, but nobody in high school knows they will end up a schmoozer instead of a producer of real value or a creator of intellectual value.

It is not the place of schools to sideline large groups of kids and decide their futures for them by giving them a lesser education or holding them to a lesser standard.

We owe it to the children to equip them with as many skills as possible and as much knowledge and understanding as possible so that they have as many choices as possible.

[JDPriestly]

166. What this company and our educators do not understand

is that we who are older learned our practical math, converting inches into feet, etc. in sewing and shop classes. Sure, we learned the abstract math, but we also applied it when sewing a hem or cutting fabric or wood.

Nowadays, kids don't learn to do those things. Math is something abstract for them. Of course they can't remember it. Had they learned it by doing as Dewey (John Dewey, 1859-1952) said they would learn best, then they would not forget it so easily.

Dewey's concept of education put a premium on meaningful activity in learning and participation in classroom democracy. Unlike earlier models of teaching, which relied on authoritarianism and rote learning, progressive education asserted that students must be invested in what they were learning. Dewey argued that curriculum should be relevant to students' lives. He saw learning by doing and development of practical life skills as crucial to children's education. Some critics assumed that, under Dewey's system, students would fail to acquire basic academic skills and knowledge. Others believed that classroom order and the teacher's authority would disappear.

To Dewey, the central ethical imperative in education was democracy. Every school, as he wrote in The School and Society, must become "an embryonic community life, active with types of occupations that reflect the life of the larger society and permeated throughout with the spirit of art, history and science. When the school introduces and trains each child of society into membership within such a little community, saturating him with the spirit of service, and providing him with instruments of effective self-direction, we shall have the deepest and best guarantee of a larger society which is worthy, lovely and harmonious."

http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/john.html

A little reading on or of John Dewey used to be a required part of an education student's coursework.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

212. Modern grade school math education is getting back to that. It is more project based. nt

[LanternWaste]

209. Nor is it reasonable to gravitate towards the most effective and efficient form of measurement.

Nor is it reasonable to gravitate towards the most effective and efficient form of measurement. Even as the rest of the planet has.





Six of one, half a dozen of other... and both little more than idiotic bumper stickers.

[HiPointDem]

74. they're clearly not paying enough to attract people who can pass their test. but HS math performance

on national tests conducted since the early 70s has improved slightly since they were first conducted.

what's gone down is entry-level wages in manufacturing.

considering that most entry-level manufacturing jobs consist of performing highly repetitive tasks for hours on end, i doubt the rationale for the test except to weed out applicants.

i wouldn't have remembered the formula for density either, now or right out of high school. but i'd bet i'd remember and be able to apply it just fine it if i had to use it on a daily basis.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

111. "formula"? There is no formula necessary. Basic simple understanding of the concepts is all.

i wouldn't have remembered the formula for density either, now or right out of high school. but i'd bet i'd remember and be able to apply it just fine it if i had to use it on a daily basis.

That's the problem: too many people think in terms of memorizing formulas.

People who can read and understand English know what "density" is, and what "denseness" is, and what being "dense" is.

People with minimal understanding of concepts know that a block of foam weighs less than the same sized (same volume) block of metal. They know that metal is denser than foam.

There is absolutely no need to memorize a formula for density if you understand about "dense".

[HiPointDem]

123. there *is* a formula, mass divided by volume. they wanted a specific number for a specific

block of a specific kind of foam, not a 'concept'.

which is presumably why the formula is included in the article.

"They are asked how to convert inches to feet, read a tape measure and find the density of a block of foam (mass divided by volume)."

[Bernardo de La Paz]

124. But you forgot the formula, when understanding the concepts is more powerful.

For those who can't remember the formula for density, right now or straight out of high school, the basic concepts plus simple thinking and analytical skills will give you the formula, which is so simple.

People can't think because they have been taught by their parents to try to get around thinking by constantly taking shortcuts and cheating and claiming "math blocks" and being rewarded for knowing reams of football stats and team history while failing to grasp the most basic concepts important to life and a good job.

Reliance on rote learning of formulas is a symptom of that.

[HiPointDem]

125. i can't remember the formula because i'm about 40 years out of high school & have never had

to find mass in my life, not to mention i just barely scraped through high school math, mostly because my math teacher was just like you.

my parents had nothing to do with it, and i doubt most parents, or teachers, are teaching kids to 'get around thinking by taking shortcuts and cheating'.

it's the culture, from the top down, doing that.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

126. It's the culture from the bottom up. Cultures that respect learning (Euro, Jpn) have better schools.

[HiPointDem]

139. oh bullshit. japanese schools are not *better* than american schools (i know from lengthy personal

experience).

remarks like that are made by people who don't know squat about the japanese system, & are just catapulting the propaganda.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

143. Japanese schools outcompete American schools by all the usual measures.

[HiPointDem]

144. 'the usual measures,' eh? please describe those 'usual measures'.

then you can tell me why you think that japanese students get all their education in their 50-to-a-class schools?

oh, because you don't know shit about japan or japanese education, you're just parroting what you read in some propaganda sheet, that's right.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

148. One of any number (TIMSS):

In mathematics at the eighth grade, Korea, Singapore, and Chinese Taipei led the world in achievement, followed by Hong Kong and Japan. There was a substantial gap in achievement between these five East Asian countries and the next highest performing countries, including the Russian Federation, Israel, Finland, the United States, and England. For example, the gap in average achievement between Korea and England is more than 100 points.

[HiPointDem]

156. oh, TIMMS is 'the usual methods', eh? First administered in 1995, less than 20 years ago.

Go back further:

we were 'stupider' when we were leading the world in technology. now we're 'smarter,' but we're told we're dumber.

which shows how dumb the people who buy this crap are. cause they just parrot press releases from Gates Inc instead of doing their own research.

According to historical data, American education has always been bad and has actually improved over the years. In the 1960s, when the First International Mathematics Study (FIMS) and the First International Science Study (FISS)[4] was conducted, U.S. students ranked bottom in virtually all categories...

In the 1980s, when the Second International Mathematics Study (SIMS) and Second International Science Study (SISS)[5] were conducted, U.S. students inched up a little bit, but not much...

In the 1990s, in the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS)[6], American test performance was not the best but again improved...

28th out 41 (but only 20 countries performed significantly better) (8th grade math)

17th out 41 (but only 9 countries performed significantly better) (8th grade science)

In 2003, in TIMSS[7] (now changed into Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), U.S. students were not great, but again improved:

15th out of 45 (only 9 countries significantly better) (8th grade math)

9th out of 45 (only 7 countries significantly better) (8th grade science)

In 2007, U.S. improved again in TIMMS[8], although still not the top ranking country:

9th out of 47 (only 5 countries significant better) (8th grade math)

10th out of 47 (only 8 countries significantly better) (8th grade science)

Over the half century, American students performance in international math and science tests has improved from the bottom to above international average. The following figure shows the upward trend of American students’ performance in math. Because 8th grade seems to be the only group that has been tested every time since the 1960s, the graph only includes data for 8th grade math[9].

http://zhaolearning.com/2012/12/11/numbers-can-lie-what-timss-and-pisa-truly-tell-us-if-anything/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

160. Read. I did not write "usual methods". I wrote "usual measures". Fancy straw man you got there.

[HiPointDem]

173. same difference. not a straw man. surely a genius of logic such as yourself should know better.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

174. All you've got left are ad hominem attacks. Enough!

[HiPointDem]

175. lol. 'fallacy'. 'straw man'. 'ad hominem'. you're the one tossing around the verbiage.

substituting 'method' for 'measure' is not a straw man argument, it's a typo, and they mean basically the same thing.

you want to use the big words, use them correctly.

[HiPointDem]

178. more diversion from the facts i posted, which you ignore because they don't suit your narrative

about how stupid american students are according to the 'usual measures'.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

162. You make more stuff up. Nobody has quoted any Bill Gates press releases.

You wrote:

which shows how dumb the people who buy this crap are. cause they just parrot press releases from Gates Inc instead of doing their own research.

If we ignore your ad hominen attack calling me "dumb", we are left with the fact that you make more stuff up. Nobody has quoted any Bill Gates press releases in this thread, certainly not me. You can't link to a post that does.

Try keeping yourself to the ideas and facts.

Try not to invent fantasies about what people are posting.

Try not to re-write what people write and misquote them, changing "measures" to "methods", for example.

Try to use reasonable forms of discussion.

[HiPointDem]

168. only because you don't know anything about washington state politics and bill gates' media

reach.

when an article out of washington talks about how washington high school students can't pass a basic math test, together with hype about STEM & common core, it comes from gates inc.

and i notice your own diversion: your complete failure to address the facts i posted, because they detract from your own narrative about american students 'failing' the timms test.

[eppur_se_muova]

220. Thanks for the info. Americans have this mythology that somehow we used to be #1 in everything ...

and Repugs complain that we have gone downhill because of "liberal reforms" begun in the Sixties and Seventies. In fact, it was those liberal reforms which opened up the educational system to everyone -- and which laid the ground for later improvements.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

127. Density is dead simple. Understand density and you create the formula.

Equipping students with concepts and how to think also helps them remember formulas (where formulas are useful shortcuts).

i just barely scraped through high school math, mostly because my math teacher was just like you.

What was your math teacher like in high school? Please describe the way the teacher taught mathematics and I will show you that you know nothing about me. You only had one teacher, one math class? Bizarre.

[HiPointDem]

136. he was a condescending jerk, and i remember him because he was so awful and *that* is when

i began to hate and get lost with math.

no, i had more than one, but i never caught up after him.

i stopped being interested, and that was basically because he was such an asshole that he convinced me 1) i wasn't 'good at math,' and 2) math was something only very smart people could do, and 3) if i tried or cared, i would be further humiliated.

that's the damage condescending jerks do.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

141. Know this: a condescending jerk is a bad teacher.

That's not me. I understand students and accept them at whatever point and level they present themselves with.

I am condescending to online posters who should think first before posting ideologically driven nonsense without any facts to base it on. Who jump to conclusions first.

Schools need to teach concepts and thinking. They don't need to teach formulas by rote and drum them into students so that they can compute density without understanding what they are doing.

[HiPointDem]

145. it's you with the ideologically driven nonsense. you make vapid generalizations about us schools,

rote teaching, blah blah blah. vapid generalizations about 'cultures that respect learning,' blah blah blah.

you parrot crap about japanese schools and you know *nothing* about japanese schools or the japanese education system.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

147. I haven't stated any ideological positions in this thread. You have already gotten into your

I haven't stated any ideological positions in this thread. You have already gotten into your "education deformer" rant against "gatesian boilerplate" and "bill gates propaganda" and railing against standards in education.

[HiPointDem]

154. your ideology is clear from your comments and your uncritical stance towards the article.

I have not railed against standards in education.

I simply prefer that those standards be developed democratically, instead of by Bill Gates.

You have a problem with that idea?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

158. You couldn't point to anything so all you've got is a smear.

You can't state what my ideology is, but I'm sure that even if you tried it would be easy to show points that I've written already that would shoot down your warped fantasy about my ideology.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

159. Re: Gates

Regarding standards and Bill Gates, you haven't provided one shred of discussion about his standards.

"Democratically developed" education standards leads to the utter nonsense we see in Kansas and Texas about evolution as a result of democratically elected school boards, and the writing out of progressive elements out American History textbooks in Texas (also via democratically elected school boards), to name just two examples. You join forces with the christian dogmatists championing traditional ways of teaching and in opposing Barack Obama: http://www.christianpost.com/news/bill-gates-monopoly-on-education-standards-to-cost-states-16-billion-90014/

According to TheStatehouseFile.com, "Schneider said adoption of the Common Core standards has resulted in a loss of local input from parents, teachers and administrators. Heather Crossin and Erin Tuttle, stay-at-home mothers from Indianapolis, urged him to do so. [Because] Tuttle said Common Core led her third grader to learn 'fuzzy math' taught out of sequence."

"Tuttle said one textbook teaches students to subtract by starting in the hundreds, tens and then ones – opposite of the traditional way. … after speaking with the teacher and principal about her issue with the curriculum, the Indiana Department of Education told her she would have to contact the national governance association to express her concern. She said she felt she did not have input on her child's education because of the national standards."

This shows just how misguided the knee-jerk opposition to the Core Standards is. Considering just this one point, the students are not being taught "fuzzy math" and there are sound reasons for teaching in the way described, especially when the whole point of this thread and the educational scores data you yourself posted is that the "traditional way" of teaching is not working.

[oldhippie]

198. "...& have never had to find mass in my life ..."

i can't remember the formula because i'm about 40 years out of high school & have never had to find mass in my life, ....

Really, you've never weighed yourself, weighed a package to mail, or weighed something to add to a recipe? That's pretty sad.

[HiPointDem]

224. density, i meant. as in the op.

[muriel_volestrangler]

241. What about your math teachers before high school?

Because we're talking about 'density', which is a concept you should learn about before high school.

[Sivafae]

131. People can't think because we are not teaching them how to think, but what to think.

We are still stuck on the idea of rote learning rather than teaching people how to think critically and how to find the information they seek.

Rote learning easy to test for. Whereas, thinking critically and learning how to find information is rather abstract and hard to quantify.

Just sayin'.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

135. +1

[HiPointDem]

140. bullshit.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

149. Your empty response to a poster's thoughtful writing shows the emptiness of your ideology. nt

[HiPointDem]

153. 'we are still stuck on rote learning' is more parrot-speak from someone who hasn't been

within miles of education since the 1950s.

your agenda is showing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

240. Don't think of it as a 'formula'; think of it as a definition

'Density is defined as mass divided by volume'. If you think about what the concept is (how much there is of something, in a space), it's pretty much got to be that anyway.

Have you never wanted to convert a volume to a mass, or vice versa? While food shopping, or cooking, say? Is density really a concept you've gone all this time in your adult life without thinking about?

[zipplewrath]

202. If I may try to redirect this pissing match

I understand what you are saying about "remembering the formula". I actually suspect a big problem with this test that is being given is that those being tested are in essence "freezing" because it was unexpected.

In addition to that problem is what the other poster is suggesting. "figuring out" the formula for density isn't exactly higher order math. It is in essence a "word problem". If you know what "density" is at all, "figuring out" the formula isn't exactly algebra. The "formula" is virtually the definition of denisty. So the struggle is more of vocabulary than math. But our education system is heavily focused on process, method and technique and less so on any true "understanding" of the subject material.

I can teach you how a clutch works, or I can teach you to work a clutch. One is knowledge, the other is a skill. With knowledge I can develop a skill. With a skill, I may never develop the knowledge.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

207. Well stated. Thank you.

[HiPointDem]

80. why not, if all they're going to be doing is repetitive entry-level manufacturing tasks?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

128. Because thinking production workers do "repetitive entry-level manufacturing tasks" misses the boat.

Misses the boat badly, not to mention writes off multitudes of people and misunderstands business.

See next post quoting from the article.

[HiPointDem]

134. Because I've done entry level production work and know lots of people who have.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

150. Again: Fallacy of misdirection: The article is not about entry level production workers.

"You could think that even for production, do you really need to know math?" said Jacey Wilkins, a spokeswoman for the Manufacturing Institute, an affiliate of the National Association of Manufacturers. "But the truth is, you do, because these jobs are incredibly complex and integrate multiple functions and systems." Indeed, in working with machinery and making products with precision, "people really do need a basic understanding of math," she said.

[HiPointDem]

152. oooh, "fallacy of misdirection"!!! repeating 'fallacy' over and over is what parrots do.

only parrots think that because some corporate rep says something, it's true.

parrots with agendas.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

129. From the article:

"You could think that even for production, do you really need to know math?" said Jacey Wilkins, a spokeswoman for the Manufacturing Institute, an affiliate of the National Association of Manufacturers. "But the truth is, you do, because these jobs are incredibly complex and integrate multiple functions and systems."

Indeed, in working with machinery and making products with precision, "people really do need a basic understanding of math," she said.

[HiPointDem]

133. If it's so fucking complex, why do they insist on hiring people with *only* a HS diploma? Oh,

yeah, because they pay shit for wages.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

137. You don't know what they pay, but you think you know. It's because you are ruled by an

You don't know what they pay, but you think you know. It's because you are ruled by an ideology.

That's how people jump to conclusions with no evidence: their ideology directs them.

[HiPointDem]

142. i know that general plastics gets cheap labor subsidized by the government through a

'partnership' with tacoma community college.

i know that General plastics donated about $40K to cheap labor republicans in the last election cycle.

i know that the founder of general plastics had a close association with one of the timber dynasties in washington and that the company is still family-held.

I know that this article has all the hallmarks of a Gates-inc production, from the touting of the Gates-written common core standards to the talking points about international tests.

i know a hell of a lot more than you do, i'm from this state and i do research.

they're not hiring only HS grads (no college allowed) for those jobs because they want geniuses, they're hiring HS only because they want cheap labor.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

146. That information has nothing to do with the conclusion you jumped to, nor the facts of the article.

i know that general plastics gets cheap labor subsidized by the government through a 'partnership' with tacoma community college.

Apprenticeships, work experience credit, and other programs are well established and sound ways of educating young people.

We can be sure the article is talking about full-time employment and nothing to do with Tacoma Community College programs.

Ask Tacoma Community College and I am sure they would say that the math skills level and math concepts understanding of high school graduates entering the College is low and a problem.

Even if the jobs were apprenticeships or work-terms associated with the College, the answer to the question the OP poses would be the same: The math skills level and math concepts understanding of high school graduates is low and a problem.

i know that General plastics donated about $40K to cheap labor republicans in the last election cycle.

Cheap shot that fails. The fallacy of damning by association and diverting attention from the question at hand:

If you ask a plastics company run by Democrats, you would get the same answer: The math skills level and math concepts understanding of high school graduates entering the labor force is low and a problem.

i know that the founder of general plastics had a close association with one of the timber dynasties in washington and that the company is still family-held.

Timber has nothing to do with the low level math skills level and math concepts understanding held by high school graduates.

Again, the fallacy of damning by association, but worse, the ideology that money is bad and the ideology that private companies are bad leading to jumping to the conclusion that the wages of the particular jobs in question in the article are low.

i know a hell of a lot more than you do, i'm from this state and i do research.

I apply logic and reason and scrutinize premises and reject ideology that blinds observation of basic facts.

[HiPointDem]

151. you'd be wrong, because mr hahn of general plastics says:

"eric stated that without this partnership, general plastics wouldn't be poised to come out of this recession. this training program with tcc and recruiting strategy with business connection have all come together FOR THE MOST WELL-SKILLED WORKFORCE WE'VE EVER HAD."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:t4KK7wk2o24J:https://www.tacomacc.edu/UserFiles/Servers/Server_6/File/November%2520draft%2520board%2520minutes.pdf+eric+hahn+tacoma+community+college&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj_GVI5egzhyLnFaJKHZfdc670-fNyQnfBtWCrIg2k3NXqlAS6-VcWDPt2uXbGG1nGlz0LstJmfauN3_Y2I8MDbSxn0KVaRK-Bo29-0eA5hEkNaVSnkeBYpJJ0oBFzya6x2ntyn&sig=AHIEtbR90Vd6lm0LXBaKz4ANUSVaHk12MA

General plastics gets cheap labor via a government-funded 'training' program for community college students and keeps the ones they like.

Companies that like cheap labor donate to politicians who will give them cheap labor. Duh.

Democrats like cheap labor too. They just go about it a different way from republican who like right to work laws and no minimum wage.

Both democrats and republicans will tell you how stupid american students are -- in pursuit of their agendas. They'll also tell you charter schools are improving education and what education needs is 'competition'. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE, and that's why you're a parrot -- because you take it all at face value.

Timber companies and behind the scenes timber politics have a hell of a lot to do with power in this state, and what 'company lines' get publicized. But you take everything at face value, so no point in talking to you.

The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) is the largest continuing and nationally representative assessment of what American students know and can do in core subjects... NAEP is a trusted resource and has been providing valid and reliable data on student performance since 1969.

NAEP uses a carefully designed sampling procedure that allows the assessment to be representative of the geographical, racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic diversity of the schools and students in the United States. Since NAEP assessments are administered uniformly to all participating students using the same test booklets and identical procedures across the nation, NAEP results serve as a common metric for states and the urban districts that participate in the assessment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assessment_of_Educational_Progress

And here's what those tests show since 1970 regarding math & science:




Scores are basically unchanged since 1969 despite there being a poorer, less white, and more non-native demographic in schools than was the case then.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

155. Wrong. You are misdirecting again and contradicting yourself.

"eric stated that without this partnership, general plastics wouldn't be poised to come out of this recession. this training program with tcc and recruiting strategy with business connection have all come together FOR THE MOST WELL-SKILLED WORKFORCE WE'VE EVER HAD."

The statement you highlight demonstrates that the company wants and needs educated skilled workers, which is the opposite of what you have been saying elsewhere in the thread. That quote says nothing about wages and has nothing to do with wages. But your ideological filter thinks it does, so you quoted it here.

Education is for the long term. Of course smart companies invest in training people.

General plastics gets cheap labor via a government-funded 'training' program for community college students and keeps the ones they like.

I don't know why you are against government funding of education and training.

The "cheap labor" aspect asserted about community college students has nothing to do with the math skills level of high school students that we are talking about and is not demonstrated by anything you have quoted or discussed, despite a lot of fallacious guilt by association attempts.

The implication of your statement however is that GP should run a welfare program by employing the incompetent people that they don't like. Of course they offer long term jobs to the ones they find productive and competent. It is a bizarre idea of business to suggest otherwise; so bizarre it would run a company into the ground.

They'll also tell you charter schools are improving education and what education needs is 'competition'. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE, and that's why you're a parrot -- because you take it all at face value.

Right in this thread is a post of mine that shows what disgusting education some "charter" schools are dishing out.

I haven't parroted anything.

Scores are basically unchanged since 1969 despite there being a poorer, less white, and more non-native demographic in schools than was the case then.

That's true, but offers no insight on topic or on point. It doesn't matter what the demographic is, the point is that math and science skills are stagnant while the skill needs of the economy are 21st century needs and needing higher and higher levels. That is the point of the original post and the point you consistently fail to address.

[HiPointDem]

161. actually, what eric said is that 1) his cheap-labor program is keeping him afloat in the recession

& 2) his cheap-labor program has given him the most skilled workforce he's ever had.

Tacoma has a 24% poverty rate. Nearly 10% of its residents are in *severe* poverty. Tacoma is 60% white, 22% black, 7% multiracial, 3% Native American/Pacific Islander.

This is the community TCC draws from. It's an unequal community with a high poverty rate (for washington) a high minority population.

Tacoma's schools are supposedly 'failing' (according to right-wing think tanks):

5. 2009-10 Measures of Student Progress and High School Proficiency Exam Results

39% of fourth graders failed in reading
55% of fourth graders failed in math
44% of fourth graders failed in writing
43% of eight graders failed in reading
65% of eighth graders failed in math
26% of tenth graders failed in reading
72% of tenth graders failed in math
16% of tenth graders failed in writing
68% of tenth graders failed in science

http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/facts/key-facts-about-tacoma-public-schools

This is where he got the most highly skilled workforce he ever had, from a community college in this community, which is 'below average' for washington state.

But somehow 9/10 of the students who graduated HS in that same community can't pass a basic math test? Bullshit.

Right in this thread is a post of mine that shows what disgusting education some "charter" schools are dishing out.

The research shows that charter schools as a whole perform worse than public schools. Them's the facts, jack. Easy to cherry pick, I can cherry pick public schools too.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

164. Nope. Eric did not say that. You miscomprehend: "poised to come out" does not mean

Nope. Eric did not say that. You miscomprehend: "poised to come out" does not mean "keeping him afloat".

[HiPointDem]

170. lol. if you say so. you are the genius who knows all about fallacies and density, after all.

and on a first name basis with 'eric,' too. my my

[Bernardo de La Paz]

172. First name with "eric"? You kept on referring to him as "eric". Enough of this nonsense.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

165. You attack my point by agreeing with it! Bizarref! Enough!

I wrote and you quote:

Right in this thread is a post of mine that shows what disgusting education some "charter" schools are dishing out.

Then you wrote the following attack that is consistent with my point that you quote:

The research shows that charter schools as a whole perform worse than public schools. Them's the facts, jack. Easy to cherry pick, I can cherry pick public schools too.

Bizarre! Enough!

[HiPointDem]

167. your agenda is clear to anyone reading. as are your tactics. enough indeed.

[JDPriestly]

163. Actually, they can afford to hire someone who needs to relearn basic math.

What they are not getting is that these people probably learned that math in jr. high and promptly forgot it, not because they are stupid or did not learn it well but because they haven't used it for a number of years.

They should hire the more promising applicants on a trial basis, those with decent grades in other subjects, give them a brush-up course -- and then test them on paper once again and watch them for a couple of weeks on the job supervised by an experienced co-worker. After those weeks, test the workers once again on the necessary math. Those who really want the job will pass the test at this point.

We get rusty on aspects of math that we don't use. When we start to use them, we remember and regain the skill we once had. It takes some time and practice. Math just takes practice.

[winter is coming]

225. I've gotta admit, I don't remember calculus anymore, because I don't use it.

Algebra and geometry, sure, but not calculus.

[karynnj]

19. This does not sound like a job that some one with a science degree would want

Would you? I am sure you would ace the test. What this suggests is that math should be taught better in high schools.

[SpearthrowerOwl]

73. I wasn't suggesting

I wasn't suggesting that people with science degrees should apply for this job, just that people who know math should. People who know math might if they're paid more. Whether somebody has a degree or not is kind of irrelevant to the argument. The market shouldn't have any trouble filling this job with somebody that has the skills to do it if it paid a contract that those with the skills were willing to enter.

[LibDemAlways]

32. And despite the fact that well-qualified people are jobless, the US

still supplies H1B Visas to citizens of other countries to come here for the specific purpose of stealing jobs. It's a crime.

[sigmasix]

180. manipulating employment information to drive down wages

These "employers" are the same people that have been suppporting the chamber of commerce approved, business friendly politicians. These are the same politicians that are working so hard to destroy American public education. Most large American employers that are making these sorts of claims are also paying below standard wages and benefits for the same jobs. They are lying, but our "news" media certainly won't point-out the lies of the owners and thier friends.

[Silent3]

2. "But I'm not a numbers person, I'm a people person!"

Among other things, we've got to fight the perverse social stigma of being good at math. Figuring out the density of a foam block shouldn't be that hard. It isn't that hard. It should be perfectly within the ability of people with average, or even somewhat less than average, intelligence.

That such problems aren't easily solved by the average person with a typical high school education seems most likely to me to be a matter of strange, counter-productive social pressures, not any intrinsic difficulty of such problems.

[zipplewrath]

8. No one is "bad at math"

I hate it when I hear folks claim that they, or someone else is "bad at math". And the worst part is that social stigma you mention. We have somehow made it socially acceptable to be "bad at math". Can you imagine someone saying "I can't read very well".

I've worked with alot of students who have been struggling with some math subject or another. I've never met one that was "bad at math". Okay, they weren't the greatest, but they weren't "bad" at it. Usually I ended up working with them because they were stuggling momentarily on some concept or another. Who hasn't. But once the hurdle is cleared, they're off and running again. But far too often someone struggles and so they get told that they "aren't good at math" and then that's it. They never try again and they buy into the whole concept.

I can't tell you how many people I've known that claimed to be "bad at math" but in fact were quite good at it. Because they didn't learn the "easy" way, they had to create their own ways to calculate things and figure things out. That's hard, and takes alot of effort. I met a girl who had never mastered "long division". So she had all these other methods for estimating, approximating, or in some cases deriving the answers. They were all quite brilliant in their own way. And complicated as hell. They also "worked" better on some problems than others. Once we worked through basic long division, she found it "easy" because what she had been doing was torturously difficult.

[kiva]

12. "I can't read very well"

Recently saw a reference to a British study that 1 in 5 of teenagers say they would be embarrassed to be seen reading a book.

[JI7]

13. what would the numbers be if asked of american students

[Posteritatis]

15. Probably not too far off

People who just don't read for one reason or another is one thing, and I'm sure that's higher than 20% in both countries, but "I'd be embarrassed to be seen with a book" is a level of hostility that's taking it a step further. I've known plenty of people who simply don't read, I've known a few who simply couldn't read, but only a few who wouldn't read by conscious choice.

[JI7]

17. this reminds me of something that happened

when i was in school. i think it was middle school and this was around early/mid 90s. it was probalby the first day of class and the teacher asked everyone to introduce themselves and mention something aout themselves like what they like to do.

i hate doing those things but i said i liked to read. and the teacher went on some long thing about how she was happy to see someone mention it out loud as if people were ashamed/embarrassed about it. this is something i always remembered because i was surprised that people would feel this way.

and as i say this was years ago. now with things like texting i can see many people especially younger ones feeling this way even more.

[kiva]

28. Despite some not thinking it's cool,

there's some good news - according to the Pew Research Center’s Internet & American Life Project, 83 percent of Americans aged 16-29 read a book in the past year, compared to 78 percent of all Americans over 16. So...
http://lj.libraryjournal.com/2012/10/youth-services/pew-younger-americans-reading-more/

[LibDemAlways]

35. Zipplewrath, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am truly

hopelessly bad at math. Fortunately, my dad was a math whiz. With his intense tutoring, I squeaked by in high school algebra and geometry with low C's. (Did my homework, bombed the tests!) It is indeed possible to be terrible at math. I'm living proof.

[Libertas1776]

138. that makes two of us

I have always been terrible at math, from 3rd grade and the introduction of long division and onwards. Granted, I never had the best teachers either, though I doubt teacher's sensitivities to students math difficulties have changed much since I was in school. I'm sure so many students must still make that dreaded walk to the blackboard (Do they still use blackboards??) and stare blankly at a problem, while their fellow classmates also called upon zoom through the problem and sit right back down, until one by one, your the only schnook left standing there. After the long, anxiety ridden, sweat inducing, wait of embarrassment, the teacher allows you to sit down...a walk of shame back to your desk. :

Barely made it through middle school math, and passed state exams by the skin of my teeth. Flunked 9th grade math, had to repeat in 10th. Passed HS math overall, but like you only with Cs and always by the skin of my teeth. In community college, flunked math portions on entrance exams. Had to take remedial math for over a year. Had to change my major to one requiring the least stringent math requirements. In university, I flunked the math portion on the entrance exams again. With a C, and a very, very generous grading curve I was able to pass the least bearing math class to satisfy my requirements and get my degree.

In HS, I was able to pass the state mandated math exam with a B-, thanks to a genuinely good teacher. Of course, all that material is long forgotten. In fact, i'm sure I forgot most of it that very summer, which is why I had to keep taking remedial classes in college.

It's annoying how people like to say that people aren't "bad at math." Would you tell a child with Dyslexia or Disgraphia that he isn't bad at reading or writing, that is to say, would you tell him that he doesn't have a learning disability that requires special learning techniques to overcome the difficulty? I'm not saying that most people have a learning disability in math. (In fact, most of my classmates in remedial classes throughout schooling were usually just delinquents and troublemakers, who aced the tests when they actually showed up. Imagine how that felt for someone with a genuine learning problem, being surrounded by some really frightening characters, not too mention the worst textbooks, desks, and classrooms. Doesn't instill a lot of confidence in a kid). But there are plenty of us who do and telling us we're not bad at math is not helpful.

Dyscalculia or math difficulty is a learning disability recognized by the WHO (World Health Organization).

[zipplewrath]

189. I stuggled with long division

I know of the walk of which you speak. I was very sick the week that they started teaching long division. By the time I got back, everyone "knew how" and I was playing catch up badly, in a class of 30 students. Not good. I figured out a system for "getting the right answer" which worked for a class of problems (for a while). Finally, a teacher watched what I was doing (I had learned to mimic the form of long division) and sat me down and started from the beginning again.

Dyscalculia affects 3 - 6% of the population, and some of that is due to specific disease or brain injuries. And it will manifest itself in far more than just doing poorly in math class. If you believe you suffer from this, or have been diagonsed with it, there are treatments (not "cures&quot .

[Libertas1776]

191. ...

yes, i am aware there are no "cures". As far as treatment goes, that requires a diagnosis. Unfortunately, dyscalculia is not widely recognized or even known about in your average american school. Unlike dyslexia and disgraphia, it's also not as obvious. Educators and schools can ignore its existence, and only help when their hand is legally forced, aka through diagnosis. Unfortunately, a diagnosis costs money, a lot of it. Something I or my parents never had.

[zipplewrath]

194. Self diagnosis

Are you relying then upon a self diagnosis? This is a fairly rare condition. And not easy to diagnose as you suggest. But it would manifest itself in more than just a tough time in math class. And if you're right, there are a host of potential causes that might need/be able to be treated.

[zipplewrath]

187. Ha. I'm sure it feels that way.

It is probably a combination of things.

1) Incredibly high standards. I'm not saying that everyone is qualfied to be a math scholar. But math (predominatley arithmatic and algebra) are "easy" and mostly a matter of memorization. Can I give you problems/questions that are difficult? Sure, but that's true of almost any discipline. But the fundamentals of arithmatic, geometry, and algebra are pretty basic and easy and working with them in the common world is fairly straight forward. Look at the things in the article of the orignal post. Calculating densities, converting from feet to inches, these were the problems the applicants were struggling with and they just aren't that complicated. If your dad was a "math whiz", your standards for being "good" at it may be bit high. I play alot of golf. I'm probably in about the top 30 - 40% of golfers based on score. But if I compared myself to ANY professional golfer, I'd "suck".

2) You probably hit some wall, and from your description probably early on. I of course can't know what it might have been, and it would probably take me several sessions to figure it out. But I've found these "walls" in several students and they often actually aren't that big of deal, unless one never gets beyond them. I worked with one child who was struggling with long division. We went over and over it. I tried several different ways. We started with VERY easy problems and then moved on to more difficult ones. I began to notice that what I considered "easy" and "hard" didn't correlate to their abilities. Finally, almost by accident, I found out that the child thought that "guessing" at any point in the process was "wrong". Heck, a fundamental aspect of long division is "guessing" and seeing if the resulting value is too high or low. But a strong student teaching a weak one will appear to "know" the right answer immediately because they "guess" so well/quickly. I then started showing her OUT LOUD my thought process (and yes, I guessed wrong on purpose almost every single time) so she could see not only that guessing was "okay" but that it was part of the larger process of getting TO the right answer. Once freed to guess and be "wrong" she took off.

And the truth was, and the reason she seemed to be able to do "difficult" problems more easily than some "easy" ones was because through her struggle, she had managed to "memorize" a very large number of multiples. Unfortunately not "ALL" of them, but there were certain, large, combinations that she knew quite well. Served her well once she knew she could "guess".

3) Proofs. If I could rewrite the text books, students wouldn't even do proofs until the second "semester" or second year or something. We teach proofs in geometry and algebra almost right up front. Phooey. Proofs are hard. Especially at the middle school level we start trying. Students barely have any grasp of logic, or structured processes yet. There are whole classes of problems that can be taught common solution techniques. Once mastered, you can REVISIT the source of these techniques by searching out how they are derived and "proven".

4) Repetition. A key component to teaching math (and many other subjects from vocabulary to golf) is repetition. And really there is no way around it. Yes, some "quicker" students "need" less of it. But everyone benefits from repetition, even (or especially) the best students. As a teacher of course one needs to try to keep variety in repetition. Present the same problems in different forms, make it communal, make if "fun", that kind of thing. But there is no real substitution for doing the same problem over and over, in slightly different ways, to understand the problem from "all" aspects.

5) And probably the biggest one I find, and I've found it in my wife, you didn't master all the myriad of different solution techniques presented to you in school. Problems can be solved in multiple ways (there is a very humoruous proof of 2 + 2 = 4. Well, funny to math majors. It is quite tortured.) But you probably have a core set of solution techniques you are using to engage math. You have ways of figuring out how long a trip might take, and it uses fractions, even if you don't realize it. You probably have a set of "combinations" that you fundamentally know, so if you have to scale things, you can do it quickly. First time I was in Italy, my wife had a hard time converting the old "Liras" into dollars. It was something like 1300 lira to the dollar. She just couldn't figure it out. Finally after several attempts to help her, we stumbled upon this technique. I taught her to "move the decimal point" over 3 places to the left. NOW, everything was 30% off.
She had developed skills over the years for estimating sale prices (albeit only a few like 10, 25, 30, and 50). It was a bit inexact, but it worked. (There is a joke on the old Mary Tyler Moore show where "Ted" is suppose do be dumb, but he is quite wealthy. Ask him anything about numbers and he gets confused. "Murray" would always "help" him by suggesting he "put a dollar sign in front of it" upon whence he solved the problems immediately).

You're probably alot better at math than you know. Okay, maybe not as good as your father. But don't confuse struggling with a structure course that is trying to teach you a wide variety of solution techniques, with being fundamentally deprived of the basic skills to handle a wide variety of problems. There's alot of room between being "above average" and "the best".

[Bernardo de La Paz]

48. +1. +2. +3. .... Right on. Great post with examples from experience. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

237. Discalculia is rare. Innumeracy is pandemic.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

46. Yeah. Truth. Right on. Damn straight. The real deal. On point. Should be obvious to all.

Not only the social stigmas, but the perverse and reverse rewarding of "math blocks".

People soon discover that all they have to do is to claim "a block on mathematics" and they get patted on the back and told "there, there".

People who have dyslexia or other reading disabilities are assisted in numerous ways to get to literacy. Not so with math disabilities (rare) or with math disability fakers (common).

[bemildred]

7. Math teachers are expensive. Our schools are cheap. nt

[onethatcares]

10. maybe, but

we sure as hell can be forced to have armed guards in each one.

[ecstatic]

9. I wonder if they provide quick conversion guides and formulas

for solving problems that we don't solve in day to day life. That might go a long way with helping adults who are capable but simply forgot the conversions and/or formulas. Most adults should be able to remember how many inches are in a foot or compute the area of a room, but they might have trouble when trying to remember less used formulas (like density, etc). Of course, if applicants are aware ahead of time that they will be tested on basic math and geometry concepts then they should arrive prepared.

[surrealAmerican]

11. I wonder if the applicants would do any better without the time limit.

Eighteen questions in thirty minutes seems like plenty of time if you know what problems to expect, but if you're skills are "rusty", you may need to read each problem a few times, and double check your answers. That could take more than two minutes per problem.

[Posteritatis]

14. Someone's skills would have to be pretty rusty to need several minutes to read a tape measure. (nt)

[liberal_at_heart]

36. people don't use a tape measure in their daily lives.

Unless you're a do it yourself fix it kind of person. The only time I ever use one is when I am measuring how tall my kids have grown. I certainly couldn't tell you the last time I used the density formula. At least a decade. Most people know there are 12 inches in a foot, but do they remember how to set up a conversion math problem? Knowing there are 12 inches in a foot is different than knowing how to convert them. These are skills once we are out of school we just don't use very often. What would be great is if we had a society that believed in life long learning not just k-12. We should never stop learning, but for most people once they are out of school that's it. Maybe it's because they had such bad experiences in school they are jut put off by the learning process.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

51. Whether it's a ruler or a tape measure, same diff, used the same way

People who don't measure things in their lives live incredibly dull limited lives or waste huge amounts of money paying people to do simple things for them.

"I need a carpet."

"OK, how big is the room?"

"Dunno"

"Can you measure it?"

"No, but I could pay my neighbor's kid to measure it for me."

[liberal_at_heart]

59. I don't measure things in my every day life and I am so glad to know that you must know so

much about me without actually knowing me.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

61. I don't know, but you just told me.

You never buy carpets? Never buy wrapping paper? Never estimate how much shelf space you'll need for books? Never build anything? Never fix anything?

You never cook? Never measure time? Never put up curtains? Never measure windshield wiper blades?

Never buy speakers to fit in a space? Never buy anything but dead simple standardized sized products?

Never buy a bed without checking that there would be space for a nightstand?

Never sewed anything? Never measured your weight? Never measured clothing sizes?

OK. You just told me. You never measure things in your every day life. So the answer to those questions is you never do any of them.

[liberal_at_heart]

69. okay I will tell you the extent of my measuring.

Using measuring spoons for cooking is about as far as it goes and if you asked me to convert teaspoons to something else I probably wouldn't be able to. I have a terrible time trying to change a recipe because I am not good at converting measurements. I guess that makes me stupid huh? Well I seem to make it through life just the same. I don't mind the effort to try and improve schools. Education is a key issue for me because I feel the school district is not properly educating my special education student. But what I don't care for is people who think they are better than others because they feel they are intellectually superior. I see it time and time again on this board.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. Fine. We all start somewhere. Take charge of your life. Learn something new. You are not stupid.

Learn how to convert measurements so that you will no longer have a terrible time changing recipes.

You can do it. There's lots of online stuff to learn it. I'll even help guide you and do a little searching for you, if you'd seriously like to learn. (I've taught math from the level of fractions on up to calculus.)

No, you are not stupid. Period. But I do hope you have initiative. I don't like to see people suffer with simple things that they can learn and overcome and go on to better things.

Taking on a challenge like this may help you understand the learning process and give you insight to help your child. Where the school district is failing you can fill in some, or better point out to others how the district is failing and get changes made. Good luck, and initiative makes luck.

[HiPointDem]

86. maybe the poster has other priorities. when s/he feels a strong need to convert recipes, s/he'll

learn.

just like when you have a job that requires a lot of measuring, you learn.

i learned basic algebra at a job, not at school. it never made sense to me at school, & i couldn't see why i would ever need to know such stuff.

so i didn't learn.

when i understood in a concrete way why it was important, i learned. very quickly.

an entry-level manufacturing job typically consists of doing a single repetitive task over and over for 8 hours. you're not running around measuring things, finding mass & volume, and deciding how many minutes it will take ten pounds of marbles to get to poughkeepsie if the train is traveling 90 mph.

[snooper2]

78. we are talking about people knowing there are 24 inches in two feet

it's not anything hard like- "how do magnets work"

Unless we have finally become a nation of juggalos

[Bernardo de La Paz]

81. I thought there were ten toes in two feet. nt.

[HiPointDem]

87. you don't know what the problem was. all you know is it involved reading a tape. you could

make easy and difficult problems that would answer that description.

there were 18 questions. if 90% of applicants fail, either they're not paying enough to get ordinary applicants, or the test is more difficult than its painted.

[snooper2]

94. I'd be hard pressed making difficult questions around a standard tape measure..

really..



Now, I did crown molding a couple years ago in the living room that is on a 30 degree angle with the molding at a 90. Those corner cuts were a pain in the ass

Or questions about something even more complicated like lapping valves (the right way) (FYI, subscribed to VWDarrin he's greatness)

[HiPointDem]

98. what you did is pretty much irrelevant to anything. obviously, at some point you *learned* how

to do that, either through trial and error or by someone teaching you.

so can most people.

but if you'd tested me on it right out of HS, giving me 1.6 minutes to complete each question, i would have failed.

[snooper2]

105. I'm sorry...

I graduated high school in Missouri and I thought it was bad...

[HiPointDem]

182. yet here you are, able to do complex math! i was referring to installing crown moulding, not reading

a tape measure.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. This may come as a surprise, but they do in fact.

Unless one is in a tax bracket in which that is a task for the help.

[Posteritatis]

185. Get real. An adult not knowing how to use a ruler is inexcusable, period. (nt)

[HiPointDem]

85. "several" = 1.6 minutes, and that includes reading the initial instructions and each problem, in

addition to doing the calculations.

i'd think the reading + the calculation + a double check would easily take that, and that's given that were pretty confident in your skills going in.

any lack of confidence or tendency to flop sweat would make it worse.

the time limit definitely increases the pressure.

[Capt. Obvious]

192. Time limit is rather large actually

most math tests for jobs that I've taken were 1 minute per question.

First job based math test I ever took was more along the lines of 30 seconds per question

[JCMach1]

16. Is it time that under most state programs now in HS, 'basic' math isn't taught...

it's Algebra only in many places. Algebra isn't really going to help you with those basic things listed in the article.

[WinniSkipper]

26. This is grade school stuff

The stuff that comes before Algebra

[Aerows]

20. How on EARTH

do you graduate from high school and not know there are 12 inches to a foot and how to read a tape measure?

That blows my mind.

[Fumesucker]

21. I bet there are a bunch of DUers who suck at fractions

Innumeracy is rampant in America and fractions confuse quite possibly the majority of Americans.

Reading a tape measure is all about knowing whether 3/16 is more or less than 1/4.

[Aerows]

22. But you don't even have to know math

to know how to do that...I mean, can't you just count the lines? It's not like they are asking you to convert them to decimal places, it's counting.

I guess I could see someone getting confused about fractions, but it just strikes me as odd that reading measurements is regarded as a complex task. How can you do know how to do carpentry or, heck, even how to buy a set of window blinds without being able to measure something?

[Fumesucker]

25. Yes, but are the lines fourths, eighths or sixteenths?

I have rulers with the finest division on one side is fourths and the other side is sixteenths.

People who grew up with calculators don't have the same grasp of numbers that those of us who had to get by without them do (on average of course).

A lot of folks think carpentry or anything like that is something that people not smart enough for college and an office job do, put them on the job as a carpenter and a significant fraction of them will be short a digit or two in a week and god help us all if they try to do electrical work.

[oldhippie]

34. You fucking COUNT .....

... how many lines there are in an inch! You know, like 1,2,3,... Jesus fucking Christ. And we wonder why we don't have manufacturing jobs in this country anymore? I can't believe how people here are defending or excusing these dumbasses.

I'm sorry, but I have had a rough day.

[Fumesucker]

45. You've probably done some sort of work that involved measuring a lot

I've done a lot of that kind of work and this stuff is easy to me from long practice but if you haven't actually done it it's not as obvious to most people as we would think.

Most people simply have no real reason to measure things to even sixteenths accuracy in their lives unless they are employed at something which involves that skill which in this day and age means not very many.

Explaining something is not the same as defending it.

Someone whose computer I work on regularly is an RN and no dummy but I have shown her at least a dozen times how to load pictures from her camera into her computer and she still cannot do it unless it's immediately after I have shown her, by the next day she's forgotten it. There's a lot more people like that than I once thought.

I'm reminded of this:

[X_Digger]

75. Count the number of lines between "1" and "2".. if there are 8, it's 8ths, etc

I used to do finish carpentry, and it drove me batty that we had guys who couldn't add 3/8" to 1/2".

[Fumesucker]

89. I know that and you know that but most people really don't

Five part 18" crown mould in natural finished oak in a non-rectangular room, that was one of the more difficult trim jobs I did.

A lot of that fractional addition and subtraction stuff is just rote memorization like multiplication tables, you can figure it out each time or just remember the answer, the latter is a lot faster.

At one time I was pretty good at the Trachtenberg system, my dad taught me but I've forgotten almost all of it now. Dad was a math nut and a hairsbreadth from genius, it was hard to satisfy him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system

And then there's Casting Out Nines, something else I've mostly forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_out_nines

[pnwmom]

106. I think you're on to something. And people who grow up relying on GPA

instead of maps don't have the spatial orientation that map readers do.

[HiPointDem]

91. the question wasn't 'how many inches in a foot'. and how skilled you are at 'reading a tape

measure' depends on the problem posed. which the article doesn't detail.

applicants had 1.6 minutes for each problem, including reading the initial directions and each individual problem.

considering that:

1. the article misrepresents information about the pisa tests
2. the article is out of WA (bill gates' personal fiefdom)
3. the article is hyping the common core standards (written by bill gates inc)
4. the company hires *only* HS grads for these particular positions (which means they pay shit)

i don't believe the spin.

[still_one]

27. Inches to feet, not metric system?

[JCMach1]

42. I was under a curriculum that only taught metrics... we never learned

standard measurements (during the push for metrics in the 1970's...

[still_one]

53. the world does metrics except here

[Zorra]

29. I've encountered 4 twenty yr olds (give or take a year) lately, 3 male and 1 female, who can barely

read, write, spell, or do addition or subtraction. If you asked them what state Chicago was in, they'd have no idea, and I'm sure they probably believe that Ronald Reagan was the first President.

Reading a tape measure would be as unfathomable as quantum physics for them. Passing a citizenship test would be out of the question.

And no, they are not developmentally disabled,

But they are all conservatives.

[lunasun]

104. This is beyond politics - this education now in the US public schools

[Generic Other]

33. BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Irony is I just finished editing two posts I made where I did my math wrong. And now I see this and it's where I live. Guess I better review beforehand if I want to apply for a job there.

Sheesh!

[Incitatus]

37. This sounds like a job that requires math skills.

I don't have a problem with that. If they are basing their requirements on something irrelevant to the task the are required to perform, then I might criticize. It may say something about the state of public education in our country, but I cant' begrudge a company for wanting their employees to have the skills necessary for their job.

[HiPointDem]

100. actually, it sounds like a job that requires no math skills. it's an entry level production job.

it sounds like a job that requires you to be able to stand on your feet 8 hours and perform a repetitive task at a machine.

and it sounds like it pays shit, which is why they take *only* HS grads (they don't take anyone with more education).

[exboyfil]

171. Reading the tape measure is a surrogate for

having basic manufacturing knowledge and aptitude. They may be hiring for an entry level production job, but that pool of workers goes on to be the quality inspectors, CNC operators, machine set up personnel, etc.

We have lots of well paid individuals at my company that do not have college degrees. If I was to begin selecting workers who had no certification beyond a social promoting public school, I think I would employ a test like this as well.

As far as not taking folks with college degrees, for assembly jobs many degrees might make you even less qualified for a job (you are four plus years beyond the skill set that was needed for the job). For example you can get a B.A. while only taking a math class less rigorous than Algebra I and a quant science class which is little more than discussing about science and not doing real science problems.

Not to stereotype, but someone who studied philosophy is going to have a tough time doing repetitive tasks everyday. I am an engineer with a great job, but I find myself having issues with motivation after performing the same type of analysis several times. What someone else is doing always seems more interesting.

[HiPointDem]

176. it may be. now tell me about the other 17 questions. in fact, show me the problems and i'll

try to work them in the 1.6 minutes allotted before i make a final judgment.

i have no problem with hiring HS grads and no problem with tests. I simply doubt the spin in this article for various reasons.

show me the test.

[exboyfil]

183. Don't you think that the individual who

is able to answer the 18 questions is in a better starting position to be a quality inspector for example? That may not be the first job, but like I indicated the employers that I have worked for promote entry line production workers to these more complex jobs.

I hate to say it but most school systems do social promotion (at least the ones I am familar with). I can give you an example that my daughter observed. I had her take an online class for High School Economics credit (this was a course I paid for and was a little unusual for our school system). That same class is now being done by some of her High School peers for credit paid for by the school to make up for a deficiency. The difference is that my daughter had to take both the online and written portions of the test without notes. These other students only are required to take the online portion, and they are allowed to have notes (basically a summary of the course) in front of them when they take the test. Both transcripts look the same, but I view what was being done with my daughter's peers as little more than social promotion.

My daughter has had a couple of courses outside of the Honors program, and she has found these courses to contain disruptive students who are uninterested in learning. Fortunately after the semester they are gone since they did not want to work for grades (these are very interesting classes in engineering and broadcast journalism). My daughter has reports from some of her peers on the base courses in English and Chemistry, and they report the same issue. Both daughters were in very poor 9th grade physical science classes as 8th graders. The teacher is great, very interesting and motivating, but many students obviously do not want to be there and make it hell for the other students who want to learn.

[HiPointDem]

184. i already said i have no problem with such tests; i have a problem with the spin, and i don't

believe the picture this article is painting.

the rationale for social promotion is that holding students back has worse results (higher drop-out rate). there's also budget pressure.

there are many problems with US education, but 1) that's not new; 2) there are problems with education *everywhere*; 3) many of the problems with education are due to top-down processes; 4) the 'reforms' being pushed today do nothing to remedy those problems; and 5) a lot of what you see in the news is basically propaganda for education privatisation, particularly reports of how stupid US students are and how badly they perform in international comparisons.

Students today, as a group, are no worse (slightly better, actually) in math than students were in the 70s, 80s, or 90s. That's according to NAEP test results, which have been given since 1969.

And US students today actually do way better in comparison with international peers than they did in the 60s.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2617672

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022562634


I'm sure ordinary people could sit down and come up with better school reforms than the ones our leaders are pushing. Because ordinary people are actually interested in educating kids rather than making money off them.

Global capital doesn't *need* the majority of the workforce to be highly educated. That's what people don't get.

[missingthebigdog]

188. Am I missing something?

I didn't read that as they only take high school grads, but as that is their minimum standard. It would seem an odd policy to have- rejecting people who have had a semester or two of college, or taken classes at a Vo Tech.....

[HiPointDem]

190. you're probably right, as the company has a 'partnership' with tacoma community college.

and that would make this article even more full of bullshit, because if they can't get anyone who can read a tape measure and their field is everyone with a high school or above education, they're definitely paying shit for wages.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

169. Despite assertions, readers who read the article will see that it actually is not entry level jobs.

[bluedigger]

38. You have to use it or you lose it.

I have and can work in English feet, metric, or Engineer feet, even, to include area and volume (although rods and acres I would need a table for). But I don't think I've ever solved for density - that might befuddle me for a couple minutes.

[X_Digger]

72. I don't know if there's a standard unit for density (and I refuse to google it to look smart, hehe)

But I bet I could measure then weigh something and give you X units per cubic unit.

Then again, I still remember 'sohcahtoa' (sine is opposite over hypotenuse, cosine is adjacent over hypotenuse, tangent is opposite over adjacent).

[bluedigger]

79. Trig was my downfall.

I refused to memorize shit I could look up if I ever needed it. That turned out to be a bad call on my part, but not a big problem.

[X_Digger]

84. Funnily enough, I actually used it in construction..

Rafters and pitch are classic right triangle stuff.. when the other guys would go chase down their pocket reference, I'd whip out my calculator w/ sin/cos/tan and usually have an answer faster.

[bluedigger]

90. I didn't foresee my future in HS.

Who knew that archaeologists were also surveyors? Luckily I could figure out hypotenuses of right angles easily enough and all our holes were "square" (in theory). Total stations that did all the math were a real boon, though.

[X_Digger]

97. I'd imagine that's a HUGE part of the grunt work.. 'what' was 'where' being as important to the..

.. story as the 'who' and 'how'.

[bluedigger]

101. Indeed.

Without provenience, i.e. X, Y, and Z, it's just old rocks and relics.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

39. Mathematics, even basic mathematics, needs to be better respected in a culture that

Mathematics, even basic mathematics, needs to be better respected in a culture that reveres athletes, tattoos, and "reality" shows.

[laundry_queen]

40. Well, I'm not sure I could remember how to calculate density

since middle school was some 25 years ago for me, but if you ask me to do an indifference analysis for a firm based on different financing alternatives, or find the standard deviation of a multiple security portfolio, I could do that for you (for the non-accounting/finance people, those are moderately long calculations). It's not that I'm bad at math, or that I sucked in middle school, or that I had awful teachers....it's all about what you've been practicing and using on a daily basis.

That said, there is something wrong with education if people can't convert inches to feet or read a tape measure. Heck, I grew up with metric (in Canada) and I know how to convert most measurements. As others have said, it does make me wonder if the test is rigged, or if the company pays so little that only desperate, uneducated workers are applying. I'd like to see all of the questions and see how bad they are. Maybe they are worded strangely. Who knows.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

43. "test is rigged"? Get off. No company looking for employees would have any incentive

"test is rigged"? Get off. No company looking for employees would have any incentive to rig a test like that.

It's a very competitive world out there, not just for employees, but companies.

[laundry_queen]

47. Sure they would

and I'm not sure what economy you live in, but it's not a very competitive world for hiring corporations at the moment - they pretty much have their pick of employees.

When I took courses in organizational behavior and HR, it's not unheard of - a lot of corps rig tests to see how the prospective employee will react. It's how they weed people out. So, no, it's not beyond reality to assume they may have a bit of trickery. It's also possible it's just a poorly designed test with crappy drawings (reminds me of a standardized test I once took as a child asking for the time on a clock and you couldn't even see the numbers it was such a bad photocopy so I had to guess), but I wouldn't put much past a corporation these days.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

49. If what you say is true, you haven't shown any reason for them to "rig the test".

If we accept your premise that "corporations have their pick of employees" as being true (despite many counter examples), you still haven't shown how that provides any incentive for them to "rig the test".

Making a test difficult is not "rigging" a test. It is simply making the filter more efficient so that they don't have to eliminate incompetent potential hires in other ways or more expensively fire incompetents who got hired anyway.

Note: the test in question is not difficult, just too difficult for most high school graduates who squeak through faking "math blocks".

Can you show the incentive?

[laundry_queen]

55. Simple

and I alluded to it in my previous post - in positions where there are literally hundreds or thousands of applicants, making a test 'frustrating' can help weed out people with anger issues, or people who don't have the right 'temperament' for the particular position.

For example - if you are looking for a person to fill a position that requires patience when dealing with a seemingly unending barrage of frustrating circumstances, some of which are unsolvable, if you make a test that is frustrating for the applicant, you can watch them take the test and guage their reaction. Especially if you interview them after, ask them what they thought of the test, and so on, it's easy to judge someone's level of frustration. You weed out those who react in anger or frustration and keep those people who are calm, honest, forthright (asks about particular questions on the test).

Another interesting example is the police force my SIL works for. She had to apply every 6 months to 4 years before she got in. There were certain questions they would ask her every single time. She'd answer truthfully, and then find out she didn't make the cut, again. It was frustrating for her, but she was determined to become a police officer. Finally, she was accepted. She found out that the force purposely kept people out and made them reapply to see if they were serious about joining the force. They also asked questions that were lose-lose questions to see how people reacted. For instance, they asked applicants if they smoked dope ever. If you say yes, they defer your application. If you lie and say no, the lie detector picks up the lie and they bar you from reapplying. My SIL was deferred so many times because she had smoked (in Jamaica, with her Jamaican dad) and admitted it, but she eventually got in. It was all a mind game for the applicants and only the very serious and dedicated ever make it through.

BTW, how do you know what the test in question is like? Link? Did I miss it? It may seem simple (what does that image show on the tape measure) but what if the image is a piss poor drawing? What if the arrow pointing to the measurement in a photo is a bit unclear?

I'm not excusing those who don't know how to do those things, clearly it's easy and desirable for a corporation to use basic knowledge tests to weed out people they don't want and there's nothing wrong with that. Its just it can be a convenient excuse for corporations to cry for more visas for foreign workers that corporations CLAIM are more educated, but in reality are just cheaper.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

56. You are the one asserting that the article lied and the test wasn't straight up dead simple.

Therefore the ball is in your court to prove such a ridiculous assertion. If anyone should provide a link, you should.

[laundry_queen]

58. I was speculating and said as much.

You were the one who acted as if you knew what was on the test. You are the one who should provide a link. What a silly post.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

63. I posted to show that your speculation was silly and baseless, without merit. nt

[laundry_queen]

93. You asserted you knew what was on the test. No proof.

And you call my speculation silly and baseless - yet I provided at least one real life example where tests for prospective employees are deliberately manipulative. So it happens, therefore my speculation is not baseless. Yet you continue to assert as much. Perhaps you have a ball in this game or something.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

102. Nope. You can't quote where I asserted that, other than implicitly taking the article on face value

Nope. You can't quote where I asserted that I knew what was on the test, other than I implicitly took the article on face value and not assuming it was lying.

I assume the test is as described:

They are asked how to convert inches to feet, read a tape measure and find the density of a block of foam (mass divided by volume).

You apparently believe otherwise; believing that it is deviously worded to obscure details, misdirect the taker, and to purposely provoke them to an emotional reaction so they could be denied a job that they deserve.

(on edit: )
Where I wrote

Note: the test in question is not difficult, just too difficult for most high school graduates who squeak through faking "math blocks"

I was drawing the same conclusions as the article.

[laundry_queen]

114. I do not believe anything other than it is a possibility

Your posts show this bothers you that anyone could think it was a possibility despite it actually happening in other circumstances (And business schools teaching about it).

That's fine. Proceed.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

115. Your posts show you aren't addressing the question the OP poses:

Your posts show you aren't addressing the question the OP poses:

Why are supposed high school graduates failing a desperately simple test of 16th century math (not much more than arithmetic) when they live in the 21st century?

[laundry_queen]

116. Is that a new rule on DU? nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

117. No, it's not a rule. Just a good idea. Give it a try.

[laundry_queen]

118. Nice to know the posting police are still active. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

120. Read. I said "good idea". No policing. You've got nothing on topic. So be it. Enough. nt

[HiPointDem]

181. his past posts indicate that.

[David__77]

65. But that would be part of the test.

That's like a case question. Of course those making hiring decisions are wondering about all manner of applicant characteristics, from education and experience to temperament and methods of reasoning. A resume is worth little.

[HiPointDem]

103. the article is bill gates propaganda if you know what you're looking for. touting the common core

standards (written by bill gates and his minions), for starters.

standard gatesian boilerplate.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

107. Nonsense. There is nothing wrong with expecting students to meet basic standards

Expecting high school graduates to understand how to read a tape measure (ruler) is not "gatesian boilerplate".

It is common sense to expect high school graduates to be able to read a ruler (tape measure).

You will soon introduce the cute term "education deformers". It will fail to address the problem the Original Post poses.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

109. Nor does your invocation of "gatesian boilerplate" address the bogus claim "the test is rigged". nt

[Silent3]

96. If you know what density is, then you know how to calculate it

Density is how much mass there per unit of volume. So divide mass by volume. Done.

If the answer has to be given in some specific units (like kg/cm³) you might have to do some unit conversion, but I'd bet that the test didn't expect people to know exactly how many centimeters there are in an inch off the top of their heads.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

41. Pretending to have a math block is as bogus as pretending to have a literacy block, but

Pretending to have a math block is as bogus as pretending to have a literacy block, but so many people think the former is respectable while nobody finds the latter respectable. People say "I'm no good at math" and maintain self-respect and peer esteem, whereas nobody would say "I'm no good at reading" and have any chance of peer respect or self-esteem.

That needs to change.

Kids are as good at math as anything else until they get to a point where they find out that if they fake having "a block on math" they get lots of sympathy and 'understanding'.

Then those same kids aren't pushed and helped the same way that illiterate kids would be helped.

[Fumesucker]

50. Have you looked at fairly recent grammar school math textbooks?

I'm quite good at kitchen arithmetic type math and I couldn't make heads or tails out of my grandkids math homework.. Oh, I could understand the word problems and get the answers just fine but when I had to show my work they kept telling me it wasn't the way they were taught in school. Then they tried to show me how they did it and it was a confusing mess to me even after reading the textbook.

I'm immersed in technical stuff a lot and use a good bit of math and it shocked me how difficult (or at least different) they have made some of what I think of as fairly simple concepts in math.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

52. Could you be more specific, please?

Could you post an online example of the "taught at school" way?

Or scan a sheet of homework and post it?

Or describe it very clearly for us? What level are you even talking about?

I'm curious to know because having studied mathematics I know there are some sound reasons for approaching some basics certain ways.

[Fumesucker]

57. It was a year ago or so, my memory of the details is not specific

Grammar school level, fifth or sixth grade and it was very different from the way I learned to do things like multiplication and long division.

I said I didn't understand it, how would you expect me to explain it in detail? I didn't spend a great deal of time on it because my daughter didn't want me pursuing the issue and they are her kids, not mine so of course I respected her wishes.

I feel reasonably sure I could understand the methods if I took the time but they seemed inefficient and probably designed more to teach children who will never actually have to calculate things with pencil and paper beyond school. Evidently the way we learned back in the day has "shortcuts" at least that's what I got from talking to my daughter about it.

The word problems seemed straightforward enough but the pencil and paper calculations were definitely more cumbersome than the techniques I'm familiar with.

[winter is coming]

64. There's a strong emphasis now on place value. When my kid was first learning

multiplication, they broke the number up into parts as they multiplied it (34 would be 30 + 4). I don't remember exactly how it's done anymore, as she's no longer required to use that method, but I came away with the impression that each step is "easier" (as in less prone to calculation error) but there are more steps, since you have to sum the results of the sub-multiplications to get the final answer.

[Fumesucker]

68. That sounds like what was going on with the homework I was looking at

Multiple easy steps to get something I was taught to do in one somewhat more difficult step.

It probably didn't help that my grandkids were trying to explain it to me.

[winter is coming]

71. When I saw the method, I realized it was less prone to error (even though

you do a lot of adding, there are a lot of zeroes floating around, making the sums simple) but it takes up a lot of paper. And once you've been multiplying for a while, you've got a gut feeling about the ballpark result, so you're more likely to notice mistakes that can occur with the traditional method if your columns aren't lined up properly.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

95. Yes. That's how it works and that's the advantage, not to mention also deeper understanding

Multiplying multiple digit numbers is just breaking the numbers down into single digits and multiplying those. That's why we memorize the multiplication table up to 9x9. It's not necessary to put a name to it, but it is very useful to do so: it is just applying the distributive property.

For example 34 x 27 = ?

Break down the 27 first, then the 34, then combine it. This is the long way round, but it works and is absolutely sound and gives a fundamental understanding that supports lots of other understandings.

34 x 27
= 34 x (20 + 7)
= (34 x 20) + (34 x 7)

34 x 20
= (30 + 4) x 20
= (30 x 20) + (4 x 20)

34 x 7
= (30 + 4) x 7
= (30 x 7) + (4 x 7)

Combining:

34 x 27 = (30 x 20) + (4 x 20) + (30 x 7) + (4 x 7)
34 x 27 = 600 + 80 + 210 + 28 = 918

That is just the same as "the old way" in tabular form, except without mental addition making intermediate sums. It is simply:

_34
x27
_____
_28
210
_80
600
_____
918

except that the old-school way sums the intermediate steps:

_34
x27
_____
238
680
_____
918

As you stated and can see, the deeper the understanding, the more you can quickly estimate whether an answer is really screwy or not. And you have several ways to double check. And it is less error prone.

[Fumesucker]

108. That's a lot of writing to do if you are calculating with pencil and paper, fine for learning..

As I surmised though, it's for people who aren't going to be doing that "on the job" so to speak, they'll be using calculators.

And on that problem I would have "reality checked" myself by multiplying 30 x 30 = 900 which is not that far from 918, the actual answer and I can do 30 x 30 in my head as 3 x 30 x 10.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

113. Exactly. Learn the concepts and fundamentals from all sides and then the shortcuts are a breeze

Exactly. Learn the concepts and fundamentals from all sides and then the shortcuts are a breeze. Then you can double check with ease.

The problem is that people think they can cut corners and only learn the shortcuts. They think only in terms of rote memorization and formulas. Then when they forget the formula or a rote step they have nothing. Another way that kind of 'learning' fails is how it does not equip the student with an understanding of the limitations of the shortcut and how it might not be generally applicable.

One of the most famous sayings in mathematics is "There is no royal road to geometry."

[X_Digger]

83. Right to left, versus left to right..

Older folks were taught to do it left to right.. 342 * 8 is 300 * 8 + 40 * 8 + 2 * 8, 2400 + 320 + 16 = 2736. Many younger folks learn it going right to left, and carrying digits- 8 * 2 is 16, carry the 1, 8 * 4 is 32, plus 1 is 33, carry the 3, 8 * 3 is 24 plus 3 is 27.. 2736.

I bridged the gap, learned it both ways.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

66. See anything in this link that rings a bell as to something taught in a strange way?

I'm not trying to create stress or to push you to "explain it in detail", but I thought that if you had an example in front of you it might be easier than scanning and posting (would be for some). I didn't know it was that long ago and examples were not at hand.

I'm just curious, because I have taught math in the past and like it and think about it and have looked into the philosophy of mathematics, which became important in the 20th century and affected math education.

Would this help guide me to understand what might be "inefficient" or strange or shortcuts?

Grade 5 math text book

Workbook answers: http://www.math5.nelson.com/parentcentre/parentworkbook.html

Table of contents (links to problems): http://www.math5.nelson.com/studentcentre/studtryout.html

[lunasun]

112. Thank You !!!! Exactly

I told a story here where one of my kids was dividing a 2 digit number by another 2 digit number - the process they showed to get the answer at one point included a 3 digit number!!! Taking simple math and making it hard
One of my kid's teacher admitted to the class she had know idea what the text was trying to do with a problem solving method in a section they were covering
She is a good teacher and maybe too honest for the system

Although they are all A 'students -they take additional math during the summer at a private center.
We have to pay and they loose a little summer
but for someone who can not afford it or has no time, their kids leave school confused as hell I bet about the simplest of tasks around here (states vary I know that is why some can't understand how crazy it is).

[HiPointDem]

179. you can thank the education deformers for those books.

[PopeOxycontinI]

54. I always have found it strange...

How more and more people have tons of specialized knowledge of lots of computer software
and other technical shit, and yet at the same time people cannot handle fucking sixth
grade arithmetic, reading comprehension or general knowledge. This is part and parcel of the
corporate driven dumbing down of the population, which suddenly these companies are complaining
about one aspect of. Boo-fucking hoo. They are they are the ones who wanted a nation of people
who always know where to click the mouse, while at the same time having nothing going on upstairs.
Fuck them.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

60. Nope.

Companies have been complaining about the state of education for decades.

It's the Republicans who don't see the connection between publicly funded education and corporate success.

Just because it is a "corporation" or a "company" doesn't automatically mean that it isn't run by Democrats.

Here's an example of the problem, where ideologues think that ideology trumps reality, and that education doesn't really matter:

[muriel_volestrangler]

243. That's got to be a spoof

While I might see a creationist textbook handwaving about "we cannot say what electricity itself is like" (because they may want to say "you can't touch it, but you know it does things - just like God! Therefore God exists, because you accept electricity exists, right?&quot , "some scientists think that the sun may be the source of most electricity" is just randomly made-up BS.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

244. Wish it were. It's for sale from Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Christian-Schools-Teachers-Edition/dp/0890845697

[FarCenter]

67. Longer ago people knew all about baseball, movies, popular music, but would do poorly academically

A kid could know entire rosters, batting averages, pitching statistics, standings, history of key rivalries and series.

But couldn't get above a C in History.

It's a matter of self-discipline, or the lack thereof.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

119. Right, also what a culture values & rewards. The beer drinkers applauded the baseball stats recital.

[Skittles]

177. STOP IT POPEOXYCONTINI

alas, you VERY MUCH speak the truth

[Initech]

62. This is how we get presidents who ask "Is our children learning?".

Uh no they isn't. Republican education values at work.

[Fumesucker]

99. I'm quite good at that kind of math but I totally suck at interviewing, I wouldn't get the job

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. The people who make it to the interview are those with the fanciest looking resume.

In my experience, most people with a college education are further divorced from practical math application, and less able to apply what they should know than high school graduates.

I worked as a designer of centrifugal pumps for 15 years, and process piping for 10 years before that. No college, and I can only remember one time that my modest formal math education tripped me up, when I had to ask how to work a quadratic formula.

I think that credentialism is harming the workforce.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

130. Not as simple as "fancy resumes". Times are changing

(edited to fix excerpt tag)

I worked as a designer of centrifugal pumps for 15 years, and process piping for 10 years before that. No college, and I can only remember one time that my modest formal math education tripped me up, when I had to ask how to work a quadratic formula.

You did well. However, that was then. Now, more and more, companies that hire engineers over high school graduates can design and build centrifugal pumps with better performance, fewer materials, easier manufacture, higher reliability, lower maintenance, and lower cost. They can be more competitive against other centrifugal pump companies around the world also hiring engineers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

200. No. You're buying what they're selling.

What has changed is the degree to which engineers offload computationally intensive tasks to software.

When I was young, the people who drew things to be built by others were called "draftsmen", and it implied an ability to communicate abstract ideas into the practical realm using pen and paper. Now they are called "autocad technicians", who will specify how long a screw must be to six decimal places, but if handed a screwdriver will have to stop to think about which way it must be turned to tighten the screw.

Of course manufacturers want to improve their products. Just like every generation thinks they invented sex, this one thinks they invented innovation.

The generation before me put a man on the moon and built the space shuttle. What has credential creep done for us lately?

Measuring tapes still have 16 little graduations between the big marks and one could logically deduce that those marks must be sixteenths of an inch. 30 years ago, high school graduates knew this.

Today, 68.3% of high school seniors go immediately to college, and 10% of general plastics applicants can read a measuring tape or determine the weight per cubic inch of a block of foam.

I now design boats. The first year of the program was dedicated to drawing boats with pencil and paper. No autocad, no rhino, no maxsurf - although excel was allowed, provided that the formulae were displayed along with the results. They do this because in the marine industry, a beautiful 3d rendering that is impossible to manufacture is a chronic problem.

[dipsydoodle]

186. Education issue and maybe some couldn't read the questions anyway.

[cbdo2007]

195. This isn't breaking news....go to any company and pay attention to *basic* math and writing skills

and you will be shocked. It's amazing the amount people DON'T know, and it's not just young people, but many older people in the work force don't have a basic math structure embedded in their brains.

I'm not a math guy at all, I actually chose my college major entirely based around which ones required NO math classes....yet I discovered when I hit 30 that I was a natural and that most math is just based on common sense and simple formulas.

[Trillo]

201. Note the test doesn't concern itself with how to shift earned money into an offshore account,

or how to set up such an anonymous account, or how to effectively lie about it, and to whom those lies should be directed.

More on topic....

So, when does this company pay all the test takers for their test taking? (or is this work done for free, giving the corporation answers without getting anything in return?)

What kind of privacy in regards to test results is given to those who've taken the test, regardless of whether they are hired or not?

For those who pass, is lifetime employment at a living wage or greater offered, or is the deal offered less robust?

[Silent3]

210. Huh? You'd expect to be paid for taking a short test given during a job interview?

Or perhaps you expect the person taking to test to be beyond being bothered to answer the simplest question, filling in "fuck it!" as the answer to "2 + 2 = ?", unless they're paid to fill in that blank, and/or guaranteed lifetime employment for making that apparently monumental effort?

You think this is a scam where the company needs the mass of a bunch of foam blocks determined, so they're tricking people into doing free foam block measuring for them?

[Trillo]

217. Your outrage is strong! I simply don't believe in corporate welfare.

What the test does is measure the movement of knowledge, or the lack of knowledge, and this movement is to the company. The same happens in schools. One would hope that after 12 years of compulsory school labor, yet more "free labor" is not required. Having to pass a test to be employed is somewhat similar to writing a book, then paying someone to publish it, instead of being paid to publish it.

The company is getting "work" from each of the test takers, for free. Don't corporations already have enough corporate welfare, with their offshoring and tax avoidance, do they really have to beg off the weakest, those with the least? Perhaps one of ten test takers, or maybe a hundred, will get a job, perhaps not. What is guaranteed, is that those taking the test are working for free.

It's their choice.

[Silent3]

218. Your sense of entitlement is stronger

I don't like corporate welfare either, but basic job interview techniques are way far away from being "corporate welfare".

Why should a company be expected to take the effective results of twelve years of public education for granted without doing a little specific testing based on their own needs?

Even apart from the supply/demand issues of the current employment situation, which make getting paid for being interviewed and tested ludicrous, what would prevent people who had no interest in taking a specific job at all coming in to be paid for the "work" of being interviewed?

Of course, if potential employees thinks that their time is far too valuable to waste on other people's interview questions without being paid for it, that's their right, and they're perfectly free to sit at home in their parent's basement without a job.

[Trillo]

219. Perhaps you need some reading lessons.

I never wrote "public school". I didn't specify between public vs private schools.

It's hard to argue with those who can't read well.

If you don't like corporate welfare, then stop giving it to them, and-or stop shilling for them.

Have a nice day.

[Silent3]

223. That I threw in the word "public" is what you're going to have a tizzy over?

As if that truly indicates some terrible misunderstanding or misreading of your point, as if that would change anything about the salient points of my response if I'd left out "public"?

And if anyone thinks this idea of people getting paid for brief job interview tests is ridiculous, the only possible reason you can imagine for that is being "shill" for the corporations?

Gee, don't I even get the benefit of the doubt for perhaps merely being a dupe for corporate propaganda?

[LanternWaste]

221. So when I test prospective employees on their relevant skills in graphics and typesetting...

So when I test prospective employees on their relevant skills in graphics and typesetting, the company should pay them, despite that the results are never used other than for evaluation purposes and promptly discarded?

[Trillo]

222. If you don't pay them for your testing of them, you are asking them to work for you for free.

It really is that simple.

[LanternWaste]

232. On what objective measure do you base that premise?

On what objective measure do you base the premise that a person should be paid to be interviewed?

If it is indeed, that simple, I imagine you can point us towards objective, peer-reviewed analysis which validates your faith in that opnion, yes?

[oldhippie]

233. That's a pretty wild concept .....

I don't think it's going to catch on!

[One_Life_To_Give]

203. Sounds like H.S. Shop grads needed.

Somebody who knows how to setup and operate a Bridgeport. Those skills are teachable and have use beyond just operating a specific machine. I think Germany has some programs specifically for training some of their students for this type of work.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

206. The Elephant in the Math Room:

When the majority of voters have difficulty understanding graphs, charts, dead basic statistics and probability, then they are easily bamboozled by shysters like Senator Inhofe (climate denier) and Rep. Tod Akin ("legitimate rape&quot .

There are many issues before the voters that require analysis and critical thinking: Quantitative Easing, Climate Change, Renewable Energy Systems, High Speed Rail, Cyber Security, Health care options, ....

For the health of the nation it is vitally important to have educated voters who can make informed choices.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

208. Math challenged voters are a huge problem:

[LanternWaste]

214. I did poorly in math while in school,

I did poorly in math while in school, and for twenty years after that, I blamed my teachers, I blamed the system, the blamed the process, I blamed the textbooks.

Some years back, I ran into an alumni at a party who had shared pretty much all the same classes and teachers I had. He's a statistician in the here and now. When I asked him how he did so well considering the poor tools that had been at our disposal, he gently reminded me that I had left one conspicuous entity off my Blame List... namely, myself.

I was pissed off for a moment, yet suddenly realized that 25 years of being internally dishonest can do that to a person. Blaming everyone but myself was convenient, and left me without guilt for my own ignorance. I asked him, "how did you do so well in class?" He simply replied, "education is not given to us, it is a struggle... it is something we have to demand from ourselves in addition to teachers and staff. It is something we must work at. It is discipline, it is study, and it is not fun... and you had a LOT of fun in school, yes?"

He and I were given the same tools. He used the tools properly, while I instead, simply blamed the tools. Although math is still not a strong suit of mine, I realize that's because of the priorities and choices I had and took when in school. The indictment is on me alone. A difficult truth.

This applies specifically to me... I'm certain many other people studied and studied and studied math but got nowhere with it. Actually, I'm not very certain of that at all.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

215. Excellent honest post. "Mathematics is not a spectator sport."

"Mathematics is not a spectator sport."

In fact, mathematics is easy, but there is a big problem: there is a lot of it.

So you can learn it a little bit at a time, but you have to do the exercises to master each bit. Do that and it becomes easy because it builds on itself.

Integral calculus is addition. ("integrate" = "bring together&quot
Differential calculus is subtraction. ("differential" <-- "difference" = subtraction)

Sophisticated addition and subtraction, but fundamentally addition and subtraction.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

216. Children are naturally equipped for mathematics and science, but ...

[Fumesucker]

227. And yet I've seen you on this thread blame those who don't "get it" when it comes to math

As for some of your comments regarding ideology upthread, I know who Bernardo de La Paz was, a character used as a strong proponent of libertarianism by Heinlein.

Of course Heinlein wasn't always such a laissez faire libertarian, in Beyond This Horizon he had the basics of life as a given by the government, he only became a libertarian once the money started rolling in.

Yeah, I really liked TMIAHM myself but I was young and dumb then, it's still a good and entertaining read but the politics and sociology in it suck.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

234. Nope. It is clear in this thread that I blame the culture much more than individuals.

Nope. It is clear in this thread that I blame the culture much more than individuals. Also to blame are parents and schools. Children are basically blameless. At the same time, many individuals, as they approach and become and are adults, bear some responsibility. True math disabilities are rare. Excuses are multitudinous.

I've made a number of posts with titles making the point that the USA culture glorifies athletes, philistines, and 'reality' shows to the greater detriment of its success.

I am not BdLP, far from it. Confusing a complex human being with a fictional character, and especially with a selected subset of that character, is a bit disrespectful and certainly not the whole picture of the individual.

However, it is important to note that in the book, BdLP was prominently a math teacher (as well as other roles), a role I have spent some time in myself.

I started to explain more but stopped since getting into personal beliefs on broad topics would be off-topic in this math thread and I think you can understand that. If you wish to PM me I can spend some time to discuss further with you.

[Peregrine Took]

228. Inner city students use stick men to add and subtract.

I administered aptitude tests for years for the state employment service and, invariably, when i collected the "scratch paper" after the test they were covered with hundreds of stick figures used to do the simple math on the test.

Ironically, only last year when I was crossing a street near a busy bus stop I saw a school paper lying in the gutter - covered with stick figures again- 20 years later they are still using them

After administering these tests to thousands of students - suburban students for union apprenticeships and others for general city student aptitude testing it became quite obvious that 6th grade was the big sticking point - whatever happens in that grade year is critical to their further school education. Reading and math - 6th grade levels even for high school graduates - we saw this all the time.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

235. Yes, around 6th grade is about when the culture hammers the relationship girls have with math. nt

[Taitertots]

238. There are very few valid excuses why someone would fail a basic math test

The vast majority of cases are just people who refuse to put enough effort toward learning math skills. Some people have legitimate mental disabilities that prevent them from learning math concepts.

What excuse are people using when they don't qualify for jobs because they won't put effort toward learning basic skills?

[XRubicon]

239. Kids who can pass that test went to college...

They should screen for people who can learn and train them. No one wants to train anyone these days.

[Demoiselle]

242. If this country could do the math, we'd never elect Republicans.

Sorry, but the news of the past few days in particular has made me very cranky.

[lumberjack_jeff]

245. What percentage of those applicants were college graduates?`

Nationwide, 69% of the class of 2011 went on to college. It seems likely that many of the failed applicants were also college educated.

[Nikia]

246. Bad math skills are a huge problem where I work

It probably doesn't help that we get $9/hour temps through an agency that doesn't seems to screen their applicants. Still, high school graduates should be able to do basic measurements and math.