At What Point in Pregnancy Does a Woman's Personhood End?

[kpete]

At What Point in Pregnancy Does a Woman's Personhood End?
Tuesday, 02 April 2013 12:20
By Laura Flanders, Truthout | Interview

"I think the effort to restrict abortion has been a backlash, not just to the decision to end a pregnancy but the decision to treat women like full and equal participants in our society."

That's the conclusion drawn by Lynn Paltrow, executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women, after years of working with women who've been incarcerated on charges of feticide or fetal homicide

At work while pregnant? Driving? Working with chemicals or heavy loads? You better know the legal code, says Paltrow. In many states, if something were to happen to your pregnancy that could be traced to your behavior, you could find yourself dragged into jail under fetal protection or personhood laws.

Even progressive interviewers will talk about personhood measures as if their only impact is going to be on abortion, says Paltrow. In fact, "We are talking about the status of women and whether you can add fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses to the Constitution without subtracting pregnant women from it. You cannot."

...............

From the way we see it (the question is) at what point in pregnancy does a woman's personhood end? In Arkansas, they are saying that after 12 weeks, you can't get an abortion. What people forget is that an abortion is a procedure that helps a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy, who has something wrong with her pregnancy where she might have a severe infection (like the woman in Ireland who was allowed to die because they wouldn't treat her for an infection as her doctors were saying that there was still a (fetal) heartbeat). You're really saying that after 12 weeks, women are not entitled to the fundamental health care that they need.


much more:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15484-at-what-point-in-pregnancy-does-a-womans-personhood-end

[redqueen]

1. K&fuckingR!!!!!!

[dawg]

2. When it's born!

Sorry. Silly joke. I was just talking this morning with a friend about parenthood, and the many, many demands it brings.

[Demeter]

43. I agree with that

[riverbendviewgal]

3. i agree

Looking south there a lot very ignorant people making harmful laws. They don't want government to be big but it is okay to govern a woman's body. I feel so sorry for america. Abortions banned but assault weapons, high mags and background checks allowed to kill anyone, especially children. America, you have a problem.

[niyad]

5. and let us not forget the communites that are passing (or at least sponsoring) MANDATORY gun

OWNERSHIP laws.

this country passed crazy a very long time ago.

[awoke_in_2003]

50. Yes, unfortunately we do. nt

[99Forever]

4. In answer to the title question..

A woman's personhood doesn't end during pregnancy or at any other time. The same holds true for each and every person.

[kestrel91316]

9. FAIL. Women are never persons. Females are only

persons until they are born.

[99Forever]

11. WTF is your gawdamn problem?

[niyad]

13. the PROBLEM is in how patriarchy views women. how hard is that to understand?

[99Forever]

16. And this is aimed at me because?

I mean really. Do you militants think I have some sort of fucking control over "how patriarchy views women"? Well news flash, I don't. How fucking hard is THAT to understand? I post in support of women and you give me fucking grief about it. Don't concern yourself, it won't fucking happen again.

So again, WTF is your gawddamn problem?

[niyad]

27. wow. . .just wow. . "you militants'--hurled as an epithet because people are trying to explain the

problem to you? that phrase tells me everything I need to know about your "support" for women. it is clearly conditional on us being quiet, reserved, never raising our voices, never pointing out the problem of patriarchy.

Nobody said you had any control over how patriarch views women. so why you had to turn it into an attack on you personally is very interesting.

[99Forever]

32. "trying to explain the problem"..

... my ass.

Welcome to ignored.

[niyad]

36. and you just proved my point

[stonecutter357]

52. Add

ADD me to shitstain

[99Forever]

58. No problem.

Consider it done.

[liberal_at_heart]

76. I am a woman and I don't post on the sexism threads anymore. It looks like the abortion threads may

be off limits as well. Actually there's a lot of topics that seem to be that way. Either you conform to what some people expect of you or you get yelled at for not fighting hard enough. You must agree to this or that or you get yelled at and bullied. There does seem to be a militant element on the board, and I don't care to be a part of it. They can fight the way they see fit. I will fight the way I see fit, but I think I may just stay out of the sexism and abortion threads all together. I'm sorry you got attacked for no apparent reason.

[redqueen]

21. Did you even read the excerpt in the OP? nt

[99Forever]

34. See my reply to ...

.. your fellow militant.

[niyad]

37. hello from "your fellow militant".

clearly, the answer to your question is "no"

[redqueen]

39. Yep, clearly.

Proud militant feminist here.

(Going by the non-smearing-version used by such intellectual giants as Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh, most DUers are militants about several issues, so, I'm owning it.)

[niyad]

40. my standard response to such epithets is, "you say this like it's a bad thing. . "

that poster has NO idea. .

[idwiyo]

46. Thank you.

[99Forever]

62. You are most welcome.

And thank you for taking my reply in the spirit it was intended.

[idwiyo]

64. I am sorry you had to deal with that shit. It was rude and uncalled for. Just ignore it.

[99Forever]

83. My ignore list gained..

.. two new members from it. How these hateful militants think lashing out at all men, even those of us that are supportive, is helping their cause, is a mystery to me.

[LittleBlue]

66. Can someone please tell me why this guy is attacked?

I reread his post 3 times and still have no clue why 2 or 3 people are going after him.

[idwiyo]

75. I am as mystified as you are.

[FlaGranny]

81. Yes, I can.

He said "WTF is your gawdamn problem?" to Kestrel when she said that women lose their personhood at birth. Kestrel's response was not an attack, just a statement of fact. Most women totally understand that statement. We have all felt it when our pay is lower, when the salesman talks to the man with us when we are the person doing the buying, etc. It goes on and on regardless of the abortion issue.

[idwiyo]

84. Well, Kestrel should improve her communication skills. Based on her initial response

I would have asked her exactly the same question as this poster did. I wonder what kind of rebuttal I would get?

BTW, is there now a set of politically correct answers to specific questions? Last week I was told what kinds of protest I am allowed and not allowed to support and participate in. Shall I assume that the only answer to the question poised in OP is the one Kestrel and you provide? Am I allowed to say "My personhood starts at birth and ends at death, regardless of the gender and gender based restrictions placed on me by society." Is it kosher enough or am I straying dangerously close into the "you support FEMEN therefore you are self hating, brainwashed enabler of patriarchy" territory?

[niyad]

6. in the view of people wanting, sponsoring and passing this woman-hating legislation, there is no

personhood involved for the woman. in their view, women are not actually people, but objects, handy to have around, but not really worth anything.

[liberal N proud]

10. That is probably pretty close to how they see it.

[kestrel91316]

7. Female fetuses are only persons from conception until

birth. Then they become unpersons.

[krispos42]

8. When a man feels a stirring in his pants, of course.

Just ask any theocratic government, or rapist.

[colorado_ufo]

79. While we're on the subject . . .

If a man has sex with a pregnant woman, and she miscarries, has he committed feticide? Has she committed feticide, since she had sex with him? Then would he be an accessory to feticide? Would he be charged with sexually assaulting a fetus, with her as accessory to the crime? Would they be charged with felony child abuse leading to death? If she dies during the miscarriage, then is it a murder/suicide on the woman's part? A double murder on the man's part?

I'm getting dizzy . . .

Actually, I think, if the woman miscarries and lives, then somehow it would be all her fault and none of the man's; if the woman miscarries and dies, then it would be considered an "act of God." Anyway, that's my prediction.

[BlueToTheBone]

12. In Arizona, when she has a period. n/t

[Kalidurga]

78. Two weeks prior ovulation actually.

I still haven't figured out how a woman not ovulating can get pregnant. Perhaps some creationist could explain it to me or maybe a young earther.

[BlueToTheBone]

82. Right! I remember that now

It has to make you wonder what the hell? Just how magical are we, anyway?

BTW, I love your name.

[forestpath]

14. K&R

[Aerows]

15. I'd say

that for some, it essentially ends the moment she pops out of her mother's womb as a female.

[Brainstormy]

17. I like the Sam Harris quote:

“A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly.

Puts things into perspective for me.

[cali]

18. Goddamnit. I'm getting so frustrated with the people focusing on personhood amendments

and "heartbeat" legislation.

That is NOT NOT NOT what is cutting off access or functionally ending abortion rights and people are too fucking caught up in the drama of this shit to see what's happening under their noses.

It's batshit blind.

Despite Abortion Bans, TRAP Law Is the Real Threat to Abortion Access in North Dakota -
“Personhood,” heartbeat bans, forcing women to give birth to babies diagnosed with genetic anomalies that make them unlikely to survive long after birth, if they make it that long: These bills have triggered much outrage among pro-choice advocates and have resulted in flashy headlines, successful fundraising pleas, and trips to court.

What many people don’t realize, however, is that not one of those bills is likely to end abortion in North Dakota. But SB 2305, the state’s targeted regulation of abortion providers (TRAP) bill, will—and few people are paying attention to it.

“We definitely see the TRAP bill as the one that will end abortion in the state,” Tammi Kromenaker, the director of Red River Women’s Clinic (RRWC), told RH Reality Check. RRWC is the only abortion clinic in North Dakota. “The other bills aren’t really a threat right now, but this one could close us.”

- See more at: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/03/26/despite-abortion-bans-trap-law-is-the-real-threat-to-abortion-access-in-north-dakota/#sthash.oau30bzw.dpuf

And this is true across the U.S, in state after state.

Personhood and "heartbeat" legislation are not the real threats to abortion rights.

They will all be challenged and enjoined and then ruled unconstitutional. They won't get to the SC. They will tie up financial resource and they will make all the other legislation they're passing (at least that's the hope) look reasonable. What is and will continue to remove access for women is legislation which regulates access to death. Such legislation is being passed by state after state.

Many of the "heartbeat", near total bans on abortion, bills contain legislation such as the following- in fact, to the best of my knowledge, they all do:

1.) Requiring Doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at local hospitals. Sound reasonable? A mild step? It is most assuredly not. Mississippi stands as an example of why these laws are so onerous. There is ONE clinic in Mississippi that performs abortions of any kind. It's in Jackson. In 2012, in an attempt to shut it down and become the first "abortion free" state, lawmakers passed legislation requiring doctors at the clinic to have admitting privileges at a local hospital. Docs who practice at the clinic, mostly from out of state have tried repeatedly to get admitting privileges. No local hospital will consider it.

<snip>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022607051

[redqueen]

22. You do realize that women are being arrested and jailed

For horrible crimes like falling down while pregnant, right?

Access to abortion is important, but so is this.

[cali]

24. Yes, and that is horrific, but largely that's happening under current feticide laws

It is NOT and will not happen under these bogus personhood laws and state amendments. And virtually every constitutional expert in the field agrees.

Focusing on personhood legislation instead of the real threats is counterproductive.

[redqueen]

25. Interesting..

I knew that many states were twisting the intent of existing laws to treat women like shit... But didn't know there was no additional threat from new amendments or laws.

It really is terrifying how many ways these subhumans can come up with to deny women their rights. Thanks for your post and the other thread too.

[cali]

30. The threat from personhood legislation is vanishingly small

and you will not find one constitutional expert who believes that ANY of those laws will be upheld in federal court, let alone reach SCOTUS.

However, you are right that new legislation will threaten women who are pregnant and lose the child. It's just not going to be the personhood and "heartbeat" laws that are largely a smokescreen to obscure TRAP laws.

They're good at what they're doing. That is absolutely terrifying.

[Aerows]

85. It's about cutting off access to all contraception

and putting women back into their "rightful place" as being vessels to carry children. The female children grow up to be further vessels, and the men rule over them provided they are the ones that are the "surviving of the fittest". It's bullshit eugenics disguised as biblical faith and systemic misogyny disguised as religion.

Who benefits if all women were suddenly cut off from birth control? It certainly isn't women, because men still benefit from being able to say "it wasn't me". Doesn't matter if it is rape, incest or even consensual sex. No birth control = you are stuck with the child, and you need to find a man who will view you with enough mercy to take care of you. It's mercy, of course, to be trapped - but hey, you are getting taken care of, right?

If you think this isn't exactly the point of view of the pro-birthers, you are out of your mind. It isn't "pro-life", "pro-choice", it's anti-woman and "pro-woman as broodstock".

[blkmusclmachine]

19. Arkansas. Where they're advocating for a Death Penalty for "unruly children."

Pro life my ass. More like pro fetus only.

[idwiyo]

47. Please tell me you are joking...

[icarusxat]

71. "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!" Karl Marx 1875 "Critique of the Got

It just hit me...Your quote from Marx, coupled with the mormon guy Smith, who advocated the same treatment of people as Karl did, came from a simpler time when most real people could not imagine someone so evil as to withhold assets and opportunities from others that they had no intention of using, but were more than happy to play "keep away" with just for fun. This type of bullying needs to stop...

[Zorra]

20. Rec. nt

[MadrasT]

23. K&R

and

[bettyellen]

26. never

[valerief]

28. Is a corporate stock split something like birthing? Is prepping for it pregnancy? nt

[OregonBlue]

29. After 12 weeks she's no longer a person, she's a recepticle.

[ZRT2209]

31. women are just a vessel for a man's pleasure and his seed!!!!!

uppity women, thinking they're people!

[littlemissmartypants]

54. I am so stealing that...

"uppity women, thinking they're people"

Love, Peace and Shelter. lmsp

[sinkingfeeling]

33. In Kansas, it's now the moment of conception.

http://christiannews.net/2013/03/21/kansas-house-overwhelmingly-passes-bill-declaring-life-begins-at-fertilization/

[cali]

44. The greater threats in that legislation are the TRAP laws.

the personhood crap will be enjoined before it takes effect and then it will be found unconstitutional.

[Myrina]

35. According to some Teapublicans, women aren't people to begin with.

n/t

[Smilo]

38. According to the right - 2 weeks before she becomes pregnant.

It is sickening how women are being forced to become lower class citizens because some hypo-faux- Christians think they have the right to laud it over others.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

41. This is why I call compulsory pregnancy reproductive slavery

Which IF women are afforded their full rights under the 13th amendment and/or other constitutional and human rights, is absolutely unconstitutional.

"We are talking about the status of women and whether you can add fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses to the Constitution without subtracting pregnant women from it. You cannot."

That's right. You can't.

[librechik]

42. IME, the minute she's born.

but I'm feeling pretty down today.

[Solly Mack]

45. K&R

[ReRe]

48. I'll never forget...

...when I was pregnant with one of my children, I had viral pneumonia. Went to ER And they couldn't do much for me, as anything I took could have hurt my baby. And they sent me home, instead of admitting me and doing what they could to ease what I was going through. At that moment, it felt so unfair.

[hue]

49. Ans: variation of an old saying, "In the glint of the man's eyes".

Do men ever view women as equals with clear vision or is that view always a little clouded?
When is a woman looked at, respected and treated as an equal with a man??
It seems ubiquitous that sex sells & women are used as objects.
The answer should be "always", but reality tells us that true equality is rarely actualized.
We need only look at the employment salaries and compare based on gender/the gender gap in earnings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

When is a woman actually respected for the decisions She makes regarding Her own body?? What penalties does She really pay at work and with Her life once She has had a Baby?? Obviously the RW is driven to cut support (in many aspects ie. healthcare, workplace rights, education) of Her & Her Child once born.

[Jamastiene]

51. I wasn't aware that a woman's personhood ever begins.

We aren't treated as if we are worthy of personhood from the minute we are born until the minute we die. It is kind of hard for it to end if it never began in the first place.

[Mnemosyne]

53. At her own birth, when pukes have their way. nt

[SunSeeker]

55. Women aren't persons to the wingers; that's why they won't ratify the ERA.

[freshwest]

74. ^^^There it is^^^

[talkingmime]

56. Rape

Otherwise it doesn't end.

[Hekate]

57. Immediately, if these extreme laws are upheld. nt

[cali]

59. Not a chance. Not a one. Really.

[MineralMan]

60. At menarche, I believe.

It's never too early for some folks to take ownership of a female human.

[ZombieHorde]

61. I like this framing. nt

[libodem]

63. .

[SoCalDem]

65. Women's magazines in the 30's recommended smoking as a way to keep pregnancy weight down

seriously though, if a woman is only a vessel to receive sperm and to incubate progeny, are we surprised at anything?

[smirkymonkey]

67. This is why have never chosen to have children.

I have never wanted to give up my personhood to a child or anybody else. Call me selfish, but I am horrified by the idea of turning my body over to the agency of others.

[MadrasT]

70. OMG me too. Totally.

The idea of pregnancy has always horrified me.

And I have no problem with wearing the "selfish" label.

[ohheckyeah]

77. I had my tubes tied at 29.

Selfish? Don't know and don't care. I had a miscarriage and realized then I really didn't want to experience pregnancy again and didn't want children. I had to fight the doctor to get my tubes tied but I won. Of course, a year later I had a hysterectomy for severe endometriosis.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

68. I'm old enough to remember when religion claimed life begins with the "breath of life".

Let's face it.

The ONLY reason Republicans picked up on abortion as an issue was to claim Democrats believe in killing babies as blood sacrifices to Satan.

[salib]

69. *Click*

Amazing what a little consciousness raising can do to clarify one's thinking.

[gtar100]

72. It also helps women who do not want to have children.

I know we have to appeal to the fundamentalists with worst case scenarios but the bottom line that they cannot handle is that the only person who has the right to decide is the woman herself. Whether you or I would agree or not with the decision she makes is not our business. If we want a culture in which abortion is a great rarity, then we need to make it one in which women feel safe and supported in the community in all regards to having children. And that is the difficult work that fundamentalists do not wish to contemplate. It is not something that laws can dictate or force upon people.

[DirkGently]

73. KNR

[quaker bill]

80. Based on the laws they favor

It is not clear that there is any point where a woman's personhood is recognized. Just passage of the laws alone does it. You could not pass such laws against actual "persons". Whatever or whenever, they assert the right to control on principle.

If they would only assert such a right of control over the male equivalent parts, we could finally get them out of office.

[In_The_Wind]

87. I cannot believe that you actually said that!

[IMG][/IMG]

Hope ... you think before you post filth like this on DU again!