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arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:25 AM Apr 2013

"all men are potential rapists"

is the most intellectually meaningless statements I have read recently. it isn't completely without a purpose, however - its purpose is to antagonize, and at that it is quite efficient. but intellectually it means nothing. when pressed, those who advocate such a position will say, well a woman doesn't know who is a rapist, therefore all men are potentially thus.

this is such faulty logic that one hardly knows where to begin with it, being such a target-rich load of fallacy. the idea that one person's lack of information makes another person a potential anything is so absurd on its face that it is breathtaking.

by this standard everyone is a potential everything. all short people are potential serial killers because I don't know which ones are and which ones are not. all women are potential car thieves because I don't know which ones are and which ones are not. all redheads are potential cannibals because....





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"all men are potential rapists" (Original Post) arely staircase Apr 2013 OP
And all men Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #1
I couldn't agree more, Summer. pacalo Apr 2013 #3
Nice one, Summer. protect our future Apr 2013 #9
no they aren't - some men are sociopaths who will never be any of those things. arely staircase Apr 2013 #22
I think we're speaking at cross purposes Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #29
let me put it this way arely staircase Apr 2013 #31
You seem to be confused Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #39
I edited my post while you were responding arely staircase Apr 2013 #41
My apologies ... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #52
I disagree. MrSlayer Apr 2013 #153
Hitler had a dog, Blondi, he really loved. nt raccoon Apr 2013 #287
Thanks Summer :) whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #139
+++1 patrice Apr 2013 #180
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #229
In the context of the OP and what is being discussed here Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #238
Like 'all gun-owners are potential criminals.' All the time on D.U. Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #281
Of course they are -- CokeMachine Apr 2013 #292
A healthy way to see things, summer! nt. polly7 Apr 2013 #290
my best friend's mom datasuspect Apr 2013 #306
Again mercuryblues Apr 2013 #325
Where did the OP, Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #326
I guess these words mercuryblues Apr 2013 #328
The OP pointed out Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #329
The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence, KitSileya Apr 2013 #330
"The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence." Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #332
sure mercuryblues Apr 2013 #331
At this point, Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #333
Excellently put. TimberValley Apr 2013 #335
Who is saying this shit?????? MADem Apr 2013 #2
That's what I'd like to know: where did that ridiculous statement come from? pacalo Apr 2013 #4
i am not going to call out any durs by name arely staircase Apr 2013 #12
Don't put too much stock in giving long-time members "with as many or more posts than even you" pacalo Apr 2013 #34
indeed - i just refuse to call such people feminists arely staircase Apr 2013 #36
I was just talking to a long-time female DUer on the phone about this. UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #28
remember the ill-fated meta forum? arely staircase Apr 2013 #37
It was DU's Ia Drang Valley. UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #42
I kinda miss that forum... octothorpe Apr 2013 #327
... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #66
Exactly. RiffRandell Apr 2013 #280
+1 Raine1967 Apr 2013 #294
Where did you read "all men are potential rapists"? pacalo Apr 2013 #5
Straw Man Weekly? Blecht Apr 2013 #6
Until I get a link, that's as good an answer as none at all. pacalo Apr 2013 #7
it here in gd arely staircase Apr 2013 #13
Actually, you are allowed to link to a post when it advocates a position. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #16
Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #19
Did you read the posts from your search? Because the several that I read said no such thing... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #24
people are defending it in this very thread arely staircase Apr 2013 #25
One person is proposing that it is a tactic not that they agree. Essentially agreeing with your OP. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #26
so it is a tactic? arely staircase Apr 2013 #27
Until you present evidence that it is actually happening, then we might have that Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #30
do you agree with this tactic? do you agree with the statement "all men are potential rapists"? arely staircase Apr 2013 #32
I know that I have taught my daughter that no matter where Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #102
Well, it has been used. theKed Apr 2013 #147
So? As was pointed out elsewhere, potential does not mean future Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #155
Quite right. theKed Apr 2013 #166
This message was self-deleted by its author KittyWampus Apr 2013 #132
FALSE BainsBane Apr 2013 #92
Following the link from the "buffet" and Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #70
uh huh arely staircase Apr 2013 #76
Turrets? Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #78
wow arely staircase Apr 2013 #80
Hey, I'm not the one Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #85
that's probably about as classy BainsBane Apr 2013 #94
The 'buffet' is not saying what you claim. Why are you misrepresenting the facts? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #75
you reaize iis being defended in this very thread, right? arely staircase Apr 2013 #83
i don't see that. i also see that your claim isn't borne out by your link. the opposite in fact. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #88
tell us, show us BainsBane Apr 2013 #95
This. theKed Apr 2013 #148
funny, that's not the member the OP BainsBane Apr 2013 #149
Point being? theKed Apr 2013 #160
0 posts in the last 90 days BainsBane Apr 2013 #152
A bit dismissive. theKed Apr 2013 #162
The OP said "recent" BainsBane Apr 2013 #169
I don't see any outrage in my post theKed Apr 2013 #176
You should stop this! Sissyk Apr 2013 #110
This ^^^ treestar Apr 2013 #128
LOL Canuckistanian Apr 2013 #213
Apparently from "feminists" according to post #1. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #11
i wouldn't call the advocates of this position feminists arely staircase Apr 2013 #14
I think a more accurate term would be "disruptors." MADem Apr 2013 #15
Perhaps the OP is making DU suck. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #17
I think you and I may agree Sissyk Apr 2013 #112
+1 nt arely staircase Apr 2013 #18
You were asked Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #64
Logically 'feminists' would advance glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism' Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #87
Firstly ... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #104
Setting the treasure hunt aside for the moment, would you vote to hide if you did see it? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #284
Here. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #286
all it takes is a choice undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #303
its purpose is to antagonize, and at that it is quite efficient. haikugal Apr 2013 #8
as is the purpose of this thread BainsBane Apr 2013 #51
The average human has slightly less than one testicle. Socal31 Apr 2013 #10
I think the goal of this statement is to help men to be more mindful of their behavior. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #20
and what better way to illicit introspection and mindfulness than calling someone a potential rapist arely staircase Apr 2013 #21
Feminists have been using strong tactics for a long, long time, ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #23
you are correct undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #304
Let me guess BainsBane Apr 2013 #33
do you agree with it? arely staircase Apr 2013 #35
Of course not BainsBane Apr 2013 #47
is this the shame me into shutting up tactic? the "it doesn't exist" tactic didn't work did it? arely staircase Apr 2013 #56
It was an effort BainsBane Apr 2013 #58
so you are cultivating my compasion now with baseless speculation? arely staircase Apr 2013 #62
I can't cultivate anything BainsBane Apr 2013 #65
well, thanks for trying arely staircase Apr 2013 #67
Out of curiosity BainsBane Apr 2013 #71
so now you're attempting the bullshit "shame me" defense. What a piece of work you are. You throw KittyWampus Apr 2013 #134
Your answer translates as MattBaggins Apr 2013 #186
I think it is nasty for you to drag me into this, but... Bonobo Apr 2013 #38
yikes arely staircase Apr 2013 #43
So if that was your source BainsBane Apr 2013 #57
What is so yikes about that? MattBaggins Apr 2013 #188
I bet there are some quotes by Alice Schwarzer that would fit in there. redgreenandblue Apr 2013 #44
What I think is nasty BainsBane Apr 2013 #45
You did not need to call out my name like that. Bonobo Apr 2013 #60
I'll happily delete the name BainsBane Apr 2013 #61
No, you betrayed something else. Bonobo Apr 2013 #63
I actually already felt you betrayed that BainsBane Apr 2013 #68
That was a misread. Bonobo Apr 2013 #77
I asked you questions, you didn't respond BainsBane Apr 2013 #86
No, you asked a single rhetorical question plus some personal questions. Bonobo Apr 2013 #93
... BainsBane Apr 2013 #96
Again, they seemed to be not very crucial questions. Bonobo Apr 2013 #98
minor personal chit chat? BainsBane Apr 2013 #101
This message was self-deleted by its author Bonobo Apr 2013 #91
I agree. It was a very unethical thing for her to do. pacalo Apr 2013 #50
Meh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2013 #146
"Coward"?! pacalo Apr 2013 #157
I'm glad you are here with these quotes. In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #53
Have you read the works in question here? ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #109
I followed the first few links Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #74
okay, I've figured out my confusion BainsBane Apr 2013 #89
This OP is using a false premise Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #97
I knew it was false from the start BainsBane Apr 2013 #99
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #84
How do you know about that? snooper2 Apr 2013 #133
I hope that you don't seriously believe that! In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #40
no, i think it is utter bs arely staircase Apr 2013 #46
Then, I agree with you 100%. In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #49
then why pretend someone said it recenlty BainsBane Apr 2013 #54
Less than 2 minutes theKed Apr 2013 #168
In that 2 minutes BainsBane Apr 2013 #170
And in those two minutes theKed Apr 2013 #173
You are continually dismissive or rape BainsBane Apr 2013 #177
Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #178
One would think, for someone who thinks so highly of their own intellect, she opiate69 Apr 2013 #183
I expect she does theKed Apr 2013 #184
True, that. opiate69 Apr 2013 #185
Another occasion you laughed at rape BainsBane Apr 2013 #191
Where's the laughter in that quote? Are you sure you gave the right one? nt. polly7 Apr 2013 #219
thanks for pointing that out undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #305
Note: it was dismissive of rape MattBaggins Apr 2013 #190
thank you, see this other example BainsBane Apr 2013 #192
The post you've linked to Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #223
And what point are you making with your statistic? pacalo Apr 2013 #182
This message was self-deleted by its author cliffordu Apr 2013 #203
Is that really what you want to add to this discussion MattBaggins Apr 2013 #205
This message was self-deleted by its author cliffordu Apr 2013 #207
This is a totally crazy idea but hear me out anyway MattBaggins Apr 2013 #204
And some of us are survivors whose stories have been ignored by the polly7 Apr 2013 #225
Having read enough of your posts to know that you've got your head screwed on straight pacalo Apr 2013 #235
Thanks pacalo, that means a lot to me. polly7 Apr 2013 #239
Their problem is that women can see through other women like a pane of glass. pacalo Apr 2013 #241
That seems...almost wilfully obtuse Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #48
Thank you BainsBane Apr 2013 #55
i take it at face value arely staircase Apr 2013 #59
I want to be fauxraged so I interpret it MattBaggins Apr 2013 #206
If my husband saw a woman walking alone at night, he wouldn't attack her. pacalo Apr 2013 #69
This isn't about your husband either Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #79
It's about my husband or any other random man when someone, such as you, says this... pacalo Apr 2013 #164
And? Do you actually have a point? Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #187
I was responding to what you wrote to me -- did you forget that you replied that pacalo Apr 2013 #196
Sorry, but... Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #202
We disagree & that's fine. pacalo Apr 2013 #216
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #220
You know that for a fact, do you. pacalo Apr 2013 #226
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #231
"Only thing" is disingenuous. pacalo Apr 2013 #236
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #237
For someone with under 20 posts... pacalo Apr 2013 #240
not if a woman was dressed conservatively and raped by guys they never would have JI7 Apr 2013 #244
Certainly not. pacalo Apr 2013 #247
are you serious ? so how should a woman dress to avoid being raped ? JI7 Apr 2013 #248
Google "people at Walmart". pacalo Apr 2013 #252
and your point ? JI7 Apr 2013 #253
Can you provide a better example of how everyday people (unwisely) dress? pacalo Apr 2013 #258
so you think those people are inviting rape by dressing that way ? JI7 Apr 2013 #260
You tell me why women let everything hang out. Please tell me what they're thinking. pacalo Apr 2013 #262
as far as rape is concerned it does not matter how/why women dress the way they do JI7 Apr 2013 #266
Even if they dress that way in hopes of attracting a man's attention Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #302
I find this victim blaming to be appalling. myrna minx Apr 2013 #324
Good taste doesn't equate to dressing in a burka. pacalo Apr 2013 #336
Tastefully dressed women are raped too. As are children, teens, men, the elderly. myrna minx Apr 2013 #337
It's also appalling that there seems to be an ironclad, every-issue-is-black-&-white mindset pacalo Apr 2013 #338
I was raped in my own apartment wryter2000 Apr 2013 #312
What I wrote shouldn't be read with a black & white mindset. pacalo Apr 2013 #313
I'm sorry, but without data, I'm not buying the assumption that clothing matters wryter2000 Apr 2013 #314
I'm not asking you to buy it. I was replying to your question. pacalo Apr 2013 #316
Low level of self esteem? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #201
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #222
You don't have my explanation correct &, as you said, you want to "make sure you have it right"... pacalo Apr 2013 #243
I'll make sure to let my daughter know that pacalo's husband is a-okay and to go Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #218
You're reading into my posts what you wanted to read. pacalo Apr 2013 #221
Who is obsessing over it? Who claims that it is ruling their life? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #228
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #224
I haven't a clue what you are talking about or the poster that you are referring to. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #232
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #233
For a newbie under 20 posts, it seems you'd be more concerned with building credibility pacalo Apr 2013 #249
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #250
when you mention things like how women dress it does put some blame on women JI7 Apr 2013 #251
Or it could mean being responsible pacalo Apr 2013 #254
when i see men without their shirt on i don't assume they are doing it for my attention JI7 Apr 2013 #255
Having been married to one of those "mens" for 33 years, I can assure you that men's pacalo Apr 2013 #259
women notice attractive men also JI7 Apr 2013 #263
Yes, we do. That we can agree on. pacalo Apr 2013 #265
and it doesn't mean we have a right to do anything we want to them JI7 Apr 2013 #267
No, there isn't much news about women rapists. pacalo Apr 2013 #269
Could that be because 99% of all rapists are men? KitSileya Apr 2013 #297
He's wired differently. wryter2000 Apr 2013 #315
I stand by my comment. pacalo Apr 2013 #318
I never asserted that wryter2000 Apr 2013 #319
No, you twisted what I said & inserted your own meaning into my comment. pacalo Apr 2013 #320
Yes, because talking about how victims dress isn't a very common derailing tactic. KitSileya Apr 2013 #276
This message was self-deleted by its author Dash87 Apr 2013 #296
By the same token... Behind the Aegis Apr 2013 #73
i am sorry to hear that arely staircase Apr 2013 #81
I used to think it was willful as well. Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #82
"...well-lit side of the road." That's where this ol' boy goes... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #285
Frankly I don't give a shit. Why? BECAUSE I KNOW I'M NOT A FUCKING POTENTIAL RAPIST. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #72
ANY man MIGHT be a potential rapist BainsBane Apr 2013 #90
You could say the same for women. joeunderdog Apr 2013 #321
I agree actually BainsBane Apr 2013 #322
Message auto-removed GreenRanger Apr 2013 #100
Locking Violet_Crumble Apr 2013 #103
IMO ...should have kept it locked. n/t L0oniX Apr 2013 #106
This is a Meta call out thread BainsBane Apr 2013 #114
Kinda like you do in HOF? Sissyk Apr 2013 #120
oh, snap! opiate69 Apr 2013 #123
This is a ridiculous thread. It is obviously shit stirring and has no value. The fact that it was Squinch Apr 2013 #117
It's pure shit-stirring. Aerows Apr 2013 #118
This is pure shit stirring Meta bullshit and should have remained locked. MadrasT Apr 2013 #119
please relock this thread MattBaggins Apr 2013 #194
This is a META thread, should have stayed locked. Rex Apr 2013 #334
And of course, polly7 Apr 2013 #105
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #107
Interesting seeing the names of those who "atta-girl"-ed that.. oh wait. opiate69 Apr 2013 #108
Ugh. zappaman Apr 2013 #113
Jesus UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #136
I just read through that thread. What in the world does it even mean? pacalo Apr 2013 #189
The same benefits we as adults get when someone molests a child, I would imagine. polly7 Apr 2013 #227
I'm in total agreement. RiffRandell Apr 2013 #283
It's not made to antonize. It's made to energize. nt rrneck Apr 2013 #111
All humans Aerows Apr 2013 #115
Have you forgotten this from a year ago? You seemed to be grasping the concept then. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #116
Well isn't *that* interesting... MadrasT Apr 2013 #122
Particularly in light of post #19 Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #125
Yes, it IS pretty good evidence. Bonobo Apr 2013 #126
This thread is designed to do one thing Aerows Apr 2013 #127
But!! but!!! but!!! .............. opiate69 Apr 2013 #129
Absolutely no excuse to take a dishonest swipe Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #131
This post was alerted on! The jury voted 5/1 to let it stand! ohiosmith Apr 2013 #138
the take away is BainsBane Apr 2013 #145
More and more meta upon meta upon meta. Bonobo Apr 2013 #151
This whole thread is Meta BainsBane Apr 2013 #163
Some one needs to back off, that's for sure. Bonobo Apr 2013 #165
that's precisely what my SOP alert said BainsBane Apr 2013 #171
I did not disagree with the locking. Bonobo Apr 2013 #175
Thank you BainsBane Apr 2013 #179
And thank you for saying that. Bonobo Apr 2013 #181
this sounds like a very tenuous excuse for the OPs erroneous bullshit Kali Apr 2013 #140
I think it is curious that nobody seems to be grasping the concept now hfojvt Apr 2013 #130
Are we here for DU Aerows Apr 2013 #121
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 BainsBane Apr 2013 #124
Personally as a guy I've never seen anyone call "all men rapists" Arcanetrance Apr 2013 #135
Thank you! wryter2000 Apr 2013 #317
The fact that this thread Aerows Apr 2013 #137
All men are potential women and all women are potential men. Kablooie Apr 2013 #141
Is Jeff Goldblum behind the shenanigans here? Very possible. Dash87 Apr 2013 #144
I have no idea what's going on here, but... Dash87 Apr 2013 #142
Is that Aerows Apr 2013 #156
If you can't handle an actual argument about feminism BainsBane Apr 2013 #143
There really are no substantive issues on Feminism that anyone here disagrees with. Bonobo Apr 2013 #150
Who whipped up this outrage and who was the target? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #158
In this post, it may have been the OP vs. HOF-fers, but... Bonobo Apr 2013 #159
I see quite a bit of really nasty stuff about a handful of women. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #167
I totally understand your feelings, but it really IS a two-way street. Bonobo Apr 2013 #174
I did lay out several for you BainsBane Apr 2013 #208
Could you point me to where to look please. Bonobo Apr 2013 #210
Sure BainsBane Apr 2013 #212
I am a man who has never posted in HoF MattBaggins Apr 2013 #195
They aren't many members who stand up BainsBane Apr 2013 #197
I hope you check it out and join in sometimes. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #198
Congratulations.. you managed a trifecta of meaningless dog whistles.. opiate69 Apr 2013 #199
If only I was half as good as the OP MattBaggins Apr 2013 #200
And DU is the place for "all men are potential rapists" & "all men benefit from rapists"? pacalo Apr 2013 #245
Frequently when HoF is demonized in GD (or the now defunct Meta)... MadrasT Apr 2013 #293
EEOC laws are one BainsBane Apr 2013 #161
Can you ACTUALLY point us to a real statistic on this quote: cliffordu Apr 2013 #211
Let me unpack that to try to tease out the issues. Bonobo Apr 2013 #214
priority is a good point BainsBane Apr 2013 #217
How about "all men benefit from rape"? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #154
how about bashing rape victims? BainsBane Apr 2013 #172
Aw, Bullshit. cliffordu Apr 2013 #209
I remember "all men benefit from rape" but not "all men are potential rapists". Marr Apr 2013 #193
Why does it seem like rape is now THE favorite topic of discussion at DU? Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #215
Because rape related topics are controversial, darkangel218 Apr 2013 #264
But, when they open that door... DollarBillHines Apr 2013 #230
. Jamastiene Apr 2013 #234
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #242
ouch! That's the worst meme ever invented. delrem Apr 2013 #246
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #256
Let me make this SIMPLE undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #257
Youre wrong. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #261
1% of rapists are women BainsBane Apr 2013 #270
I agree is very rare. But still, that proves one doesnt need a penis to rape. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #271
true, and some men use objects BainsBane Apr 2013 #272
explain.. undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #273
In some cases, rape is not about sexual gratification, but rather about power control. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #274
Your narrative is absurd dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #268
a rare few maybe but even than,they stay flaccid undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #275
Your argument is as ignorant as the judge that made the comment about "juices flowing." Behind the Aegis Apr 2013 #277
ok undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #278
Your post is nauseating on so many levels. Bonobo Apr 2013 #282
This is the most ridiculous load of crap I have read HappyMe Apr 2013 #279
"Rape is a CHOICE made in the mind of a penis owner to use that penis as a weapon" EOTE Apr 2013 #289
So all women are potential false accusers. Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #308
then refrescanos Jul 2013 #339
Hello ~ refrescanos In_The_Wind Aug 2013 #340
I have rape fatigue. randome Apr 2013 #288
Thank Arley for this bullshit OP bettyellen Apr 2013 #300
All people are potential criminals of all kinds treestar Apr 2013 #291
Flamebait- the Duer you are trying to slime never said that. bettyellen Apr 2013 #295
God,DU is becoming a nasty place. sufrommich Apr 2013 #298
This is a true statement, like it or not shawn703 Apr 2013 #299
Do you give out your social security number to strangers? wryter2000 Apr 2013 #301
Best answer in the thread. ^^^^ Squinch Apr 2013 #309
Thanks! wryter2000 Apr 2013 #311
No One 4Q2u2 Apr 2013 #307
The OP is a strawman. No one here said what he's claiming they said. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #310
OP Strawman Yes 4Q2u2 Apr 2013 #323

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
1. And all men
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:36 AM
Apr 2013

are potential perfect life partners, attentive lovers, sensitive companions, fun-loving partners, who make us laugh, invite us to love, encourage us to not only dream, but to accomplish.

I guess I'm a the glass is half-full kind of girl, when it comes to the potential in all us - as opposed to a glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
22. no they aren't - some men are sociopaths who will never be any of those things.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:23 AM
Apr 2013

and overwhelmingly most men are NOT potential rapists.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
29. I think we're speaking at cross purposes
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:42 AM
Apr 2013

If ALL men are 'potential rapists', then ALL men are 'potential' perfect partners.

Yes, some men will never be any of those things I've described - and some men will never be rapists, or anything close.

I believe each man should be judged as an individual (just as each woman should be), rather than as a "potential" anything.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
31. let me put it this way
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:49 AM
Apr 2013

I don't think an assassin for the Aryan Brotherhood is a potential loving human being and life partner. They just don't overlap on the Venn Diagram. imho but I get what you are saying. sorry for the misunderstanding, sh

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
39. You seem to be confused
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:58 AM
Apr 2013

about who anyone has the potential to be, and who one ultimately chooses to be.

Quite frankly, I was agreeing with your OP - so I don't know why you're arguing the point.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
52. My apologies ...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:07 AM
Apr 2013

for any misunderstanding. I could have been more precise in my reply, so that no confusion need arise.

 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
153. I disagree.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:15 PM
Apr 2013

I know dudes that are 1%ers that have wives and children that they love as well as any other people do. Just because you sell meth and break legs for a living doesn't mean you can't be a loving husband and father too.

I'll bet Dick Cheney is very good to his family.

Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #1)

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
238. In the context of the OP and what is being discussed here
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:59 AM
Apr 2013

your point is - well, pointless.

We are speaking in overall hypotheticals - all men have the potential to be. The point of the OP is that "if" all men are potential rapists, it follows that "all" men are potential good partners.

And no one precluded the notion that this would not apply to men who have the potential to be good partners to other men. Nor did my response say anything about the potential of every man to be MY partner specifically.

"Then there are unpartnered straight men looking for women rather than girls."

Real women are confident in their womanhood; they see no need to take offence at being called a girl, and find nothing self-demeaning in referring to themselves by that term. Real women have better things to do.

mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
325. Again
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 11:06 AM
Apr 2013
are potential perfect life partners, attentive lovers, sensitive companions, fun-loving partners, who make us laugh, invite us to love, encourage us to not only dream, but to accomplish.

A good many men are just exactly that. But how the heck would a woman know that? Your perfect life partner could exit a building behind me, into a dark parking lot. How would I know he is just exiting behind me, not looking for a victim? Rapists do not have a big neon green tattoo on their forehead. So I will get behind him and watch where he is.

It can't be both ways. A woman can't be told to be aware of her surroundings then mocked and shamed them when they do.

The Op is being deliberately obtuse. That phrase does not mean every man is a rapist waiting to happen. It just means that women, have no way of knowing and should put their safety above the hurt feelings of some men.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
326. Where did the OP,
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 01:06 PM
Apr 2013

or myself, suggest that women should not be cautious or aware of their surroundings?

Who said anything about mocking or shaming women who are?



mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
328. I guess these words
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 02:24 PM
Apr 2013

are invisable to you

intellectually meaningless statements I have read recently

those who advocate such a position will say, well a woman doesn't know who is a rapist, therefore all men are potentially thus.


all short people are potential serial killers because I don't know which ones are and which ones are not. If it was a proven statistic that only short people were serial killers, I would take that seriously, but it is not.

all women are potential car thieves because I don't know which ones are and which ones are not. Which is why I always lock my doors. I have no idea if a car thief is around. But by his logic, we shouldn't lock our doors for safety.

all redheads are potential cannibals because....
Yes, I read about the recent outbreak of redheaded cannibals running around.

His whole post was nothing but mocking and trying to shame women for putting their safety above his ego.

Women know there are many, many more men that are perfectly nice out there, than rapists. The only shame is that some men are offended because if women don't know them they have to be cautious around them. That is not even including the aquaintance rape stats. That is a whole 'nother discussion.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
329. The OP pointed out
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 02:37 PM
Apr 2013

that some women see all men as potential rapists, and interact with all men with that notion uppermost in their minds.

"His whole post was nothing but mocking and trying to shame women for putting their safety above his ego."

The OP did not even remotely suggest that women should be shamed for putting their safety above anything, no less someone's ego.

I never cease to be amazed at how some people can twist virtually anything a man says into being some form of persecution.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
330. The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence,
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 03:56 PM
Apr 2013

and the ability to think logically.
The statement, he says "is the most intellectually meaningless statements."

And "this is such faulty logic that one hardly knows where to begin with it, being such a target-rich load of fallacy."

That is not shaming women who know that any man they meet might be a rapist? One out of every five women in the US is raped. That is the DoJ's own statistics, to which I posted a link elsewhere in this thread. 99% of all rapists are men. A majority of women who are raped are raped by men they know in some way. But the phrase 'all men are potential rapists', that is any man you meet could be a rapist, is a meaningless statement? And if you believe it you have such faulty logic, it leaves the OP speechless? That is not mocking women?

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
332. "The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence."
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 04:42 PM
Apr 2013

That is a very far cry from what the OP discussed, which is about the term "all men are potential rapists".

You DO understand the difference between not believing that ANY MAN could be a rapist and not viewing ALL men as potential rapists - or do you?

As the OP clearly states, the notion that "all men are potential rapists" is intellectually meaningless, in that anyone is 'potentially' anything.

One could say that all women are 'potential' gold-diggers. That doesn't go to say that all women will become gold-diggers, nor does it go to say that there are NO women who marry for money.

All children have the 'potential' to grow up to be criminals. That doesn't mean that ALL children will become criminals, nor does it mean that NO child will become a criminal.

The real problem arises when women are encouraged to view ALL men as 'potential rapists' - in the same way problems arise when women view ALL men as incapable of sexual assault.

It stands to reason that both men AND women should exercise caution in their interactions with each other, for a myriad of reasons. However, that caution should be exercised in a reasonable manner, and based on circumstances, how well acquainted they are, observations of each others' behavior, each others' conversation, etc.

If you are in a crowded bar full of strangers, you would be wise to keep your purse close at all times; that is exercising reasonable caution. But if you refuse to let go of your purse while you're at your best friend's house for coffee, on the basis that she, like anyone else, is a 'potential' thief, that's not caution - that's paranoia.










mercuryblues

(14,491 posts)
331. sure
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 04:28 PM
Apr 2013

I gave a definition of what the phrase means and gave an example. It is also the definition that has been repeated numerous times on this board. You seemed to agree with it.

However, the Op rejects the definition, creates his own, starts an op using his definition, condemns the phrase based on his definition. AKA a straw man argument.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
333. At this point,
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 05:09 PM
Apr 2013

I have no idea what you're saying.

Exactly WHAT is the OP's definition of what the phrase means? Where did the OP create his own definition?

The OP has simply stated that the phrase is meaningless, as anyone has the 'potential' to be anything. And, yes, I agree with that view.

If one can say "all men are potential rapists", then the opposite is equally true, i.e. that "all men are potential perfect partners". And that is what renders the term meaningless.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
2. Who is saying this shit??????
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:42 AM
Apr 2013

ANYONE can be a rapist--you don't have to be male to do the deed. Any foreign object can be an instrument of rape, any person --regardless of gender-- can be a victim of the crime.... but why in hell do people make comments like that?

It's just....trollish bullshit!

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
4. That's what I'd like to know: where did that ridiculous statement come from?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:46 AM
Apr 2013

I'd really like to know.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
12. i am not going to call out any durs by name
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:01 AM
Apr 2013

but lets just say you don't have to look too hard and it isn't trolls but long time members with as many or more posts than even you.

it is here - and not for the first time.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
34. Don't put too much stock in giving long-time members "with as many or more posts than even you"
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:53 AM
Apr 2013

any semblence of high caliber. From my own observation, a feminist who has a history of trollish behavior joined DU within months of the same time I did & she has 2/3 more posts than I do.

 

UnrepentantLiberal

(11,700 posts)
28. I was just talking to a long-time female DUer on the phone about this.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:42 AM
Apr 2013

It is trollish behavior. It's not meant to educate or inform. It's meant to inflame and incite. That group isn't a "safe haven". It's a staging area for flame wars.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
13. it here in gd
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:02 AM
Apr 2013

but I think it is against the rules to call out another member's posts. so I am arguing against the idea. it is here and not for the first time.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
16. Actually, you are allowed to link to a post when it advocates a position.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:07 AM
Apr 2013

But you are not allowed to personally attack the DUer advocating that position.

So, cough it up. Let's see the link.

Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #16)

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
24. Did you read the posts from your search? Because the several that I read said no such thing...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:24 AM
Apr 2013

in fact one of your "telling" search results says this:

"ALL men are rapist."

i am hearing SOME men say this, and often. whenever discussion comes up, regardless of issue, i then hear SOME men say, ya ... and those women say ALL men are rapist.

out there in computer land, i know somewhere there has been a discussion, idea, thought, that might say in some scheme or way, all men are rapist for whatever reasoning the person/woman has. i do not know. i dont read stuff like that so whatever it is, i do not have any understanding what the argument is or what is being said.

i do know (or am pretty sure) that no one on du has said ALL men are rapist.


So, again. Cough up the post that says that all men are potential rapists.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
26. One person is proposing that it is a tactic not that they agree. Essentially agreeing with your OP.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:32 AM
Apr 2013

But the google evidence that you presented reveals nothing. And, in fact, reveals the target of your attack also agrees with you.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
30. Until you present evidence that it is actually happening, then we might have that
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:43 AM
Apr 2013

discussion.

Zombiehoard took you at your word that it is and proposed a reason for why it may be a tactic.

I do not take you at your word and the evidence that you presented shows, to me, that it hasn't.

The evidence that you presented does precisely what your OP does. Accuses a feminist of saying that "all men are potential rapists" and that feminist going, "huh?"

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
102. I know that I have taught my daughter that no matter where
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:43 AM
Apr 2013

she is, at home or in public that she is in danger of being sexually assaulted or raped by a man. And the chances are greater than not. And that she is less safer than with a man that she does know than encountering a man that she doesn't know.

But I have never taught her or showed her with my interactions with men that I agree with the statement that all men are potential rapists.


Apparently though, the very fact that I have typed out the phrase "all men are potential rapists" will leave me exposed to the accusation via a google search that I agree with that statement because that is precisely what you are doing to another DUer.

I really think you need to delete your OP because it is patently unsubstantiated.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
155. So? As was pointed out elsewhere, potential does not mean future
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:20 PM
Apr 2013

or even probable.

Here is the entire post from which you pulled your snip.

But the statement in itself is not necessarily untrue. All men, and women too, are potential rapists. They're also potential killers, potential - everything.

Would you get into a car with a random person? No one would - because they could potentially be dangerous.

So, you are right, I am wrong - it has been said on DU before. The statement in itself isn't exactly bad in the way I described it. On the other hand, saying that all men ARE rapists is an ignorant and extremist statement.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
166. Quite right.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:57 PM
Apr 2013

And I agree with that assessment.

Though, it should be pointed out that the poster in question is saying "The statement in itself isn't exactly bad"...that statement being "All men, and women too, are potential rapists". Just to be clear.

Nevertheless, the phrase is used, as stated...and as refuted by others.

Response to arely staircase (Reply #27)

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
92. FALSE
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:19 AM
Apr 2013

Spider Jerusalem tried to explain to you the fear that might motivate such thoughts, that for a rape victim, she doesn't know who might be a potential rapist. All you need do is read and make an effort to understand. Is that really so difficult?

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
70. Following the link from the "buffet" and
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:28 AM
Apr 2013

actually opening them up and reading them, NO ONE says what you claim they say. They talk about the accusation that "some people claim that all men are rapists" but no one actually says it or even advocates the position. Your OP is a straw man and without merit.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
80. wow
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:45 AM
Apr 2013

Tourette Syndrome

kidshealth.org › Kids › Health Problems

Tourette syndrome is a condition of the central nervous system that causes tics, movements, or sounds that are repeated over and over. Learn more about ...

keep it classy!

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
85. Hey, I'm not the one
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:57 AM
Apr 2013

with the personal jihad against one particular DUer. And if you're going to debate a point, try something more coherent than, "Uh, huh, lol."

theKed

(1,235 posts)
160. Point being?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:53 PM
Apr 2013

You claim nobody has used it, except for somebody 7 years ago. That link is less than 7 years, by a long shot.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
152. 0 posts in the last 90 days
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:11 PM
Apr 2013

He can't have seen that member make that comment recently. That post is over a year old. Grasping, aren't you?

theKed

(1,235 posts)
162. A bit dismissive.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:55 PM
Apr 2013

Certainly this couldn't run contrary to your 7-year statement.
I have nothing to grasp at, simply refuting your position with evidence.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
169. The OP said "recent"
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:58 PM
Apr 2013

Clearly it isn't recent, and it isn't the person he has created this thread about. But I understand that you see that statement a year ago, which if you read actually explains what her point is, as far more problematic than the hundreds of thousands of rapes that have taken place since that post was written. 1 in 3 women victims or rape or domestic violence, no biggie. The idea that someone might have said something a year ago that hurt a man's feelings, an outrage.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
176. I don't see any outrage in my post
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:06 AM
Apr 2013

Do I seem outraged to you? Is there something wrong with my tone, is that what you're trying to say?

Contending a statement from 2012, and being against rape are not mutually exclusive acts. For realsies. I have never said "1 in 3 women victims or rape or domestic violence, no biggie" nor anything even remotely like that - nor shall I, because that is not remotely something I believe at all.

Sissyk

(12,665 posts)
110. You should stop this!
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:54 PM
Apr 2013

Seabeyond and I have had our disagreements, but she has not said all men are potential rapist. At least not in the link you just gave.

Don't you think there is enough anomosigty going on right now without you adding to it with this bullshit OP?

Like others have said, put up or shut up.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
14. i wouldn't call the advocates of this position feminists
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:04 AM
Apr 2013

though they claim to speak for all feminists - and women as best I can tell.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
15. I think a more accurate term would be "disruptors."
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:06 AM
Apr 2013

People who make DU suck.

Calling out half the human population in that fashion--if that is what is happening--is just flat out wrong, and over-the-top to the point of trollishness.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
64. You were asked
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:19 AM
Apr 2013

"Where did you read that all men are rapists", and you response was "Apparently from "feminists" according to post according to post #1."

My reply in post #1 was, in part, about a "glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'."

Please explain how describing 'empty-headed nonsense being passed off as feminsim' equates to having said that feminists have stated that "all men are rapists".

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
87. Logically 'feminists' would advance glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:06 AM
Apr 2013

The OP is making a false accusation that some DUers have advanced the notion that "all men are potential rapists".

You agreed and piled on with the accusation that those totally fabricated DUers who advance such a notion are advocating a "glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'."

Thus, these imaginary DUers who would advance a "glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'," would consider themselves 'feminists'.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
104. Firstly ...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:31 PM
Apr 2013
"The OP is making a false accusation that some DUers have advanced the notion that 'all men are potential rapists'."

The OP doesn't mention DU or DUers - although one could come to the conclusion that she was referencing some people here. But she made no such allegation in her OP.

Secondly, you state: "You agreed and piled on with the accusation ..."

Being as there was no such allegation made in the OP, I could not have agreed nor disagreed with it.

My reply (Reply #1) was to state that if all men are potential rapists, it is simple logic to say that all men are potential perfect partners in the same way. As the OP pointed out, everyone is a potential anything.

I don't see how my statement could possibly be construed as "piling on with the accusation", as I made no such accusation at all.

Do I believe that some people on this site see all men as potential rapists? Absolutely. There is a certain contingent that makes their position quite clear on the matter, along with many other matters.

When they speak of men, many of them speak in terms of "men do this", "men think that", "men behave thusly", without any qualifiers such as "some men", "most men", "a few men". When one stereotypes men and then presents them as acting in concert, it follows that what is said about one is meant to be applied to all.

In my reply, I talked about "a glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism'."

You'll note that I put quotes around the word 'feminism'. That's because a certain contingent of self-proclaimed 'feminists' on DU continually advance their empty-headed ideas about all men, and try to pass it off as 'feminism' - which it certainly is not.






 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
286. Here.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:04 AM
Apr 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=190935

That was a long time ago and it it isn't said often, but it is a discriminatory form of profiling and most men consider it a hurtful broad brush attack. Can we all agree not to say it in the future? That's really the point.

On edit:
Oops. I should have read downthread where UndergroundPanther says it.

So we can argue that it's a prevailing sentiment or that it's an outlier. But the fact that it wasn't hidden should suggest that the OP's argument has merit.

So now we've returned from "well I never!" to what we as a community think about it.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
303. all it takes is a choice
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:43 PM
Apr 2013

to commit rape. if I do not know or cannot trust a man,since I cannot read his mind I don't know what choices he would make.

I'm not a mind reader,but I am a survivor,and I know how common rape is,and it makes the world a scary place once it has happened to you.

I don't think all men are rapists,but I am wary that a man might choose to be one.
I wouldn't know for sure until he tried it or did it to someone else.But that vigilance against rape,and the chance it could happen it remains a potential reality. I wish rape never happened.I wish no one raped anyone. just like I wish there were no pedophiles or sociopaths.

but there is a point where rape is a choice made by the rapist,and the rapist is 100% at fault for the choice he makes to destroy another person.

That's why I get disgusted when rapists get excused and victims bashed. And in this society it can be so cruel to a survivor,denial can go deep as can culture,even if said culture is toxic.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
51. as is the purpose of this thread
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:07 AM
Apr 2013

Since no one actually made that comment "recently" as the OP claims.

Socal31

(2,484 posts)
10. The average human has slightly less than one testicle.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 03:56 AM
Apr 2013

Statistics can be funny.

Here is where my misleading yet true statistic differs from the inflammatory OP: not all men are physically able to rape.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
20. I think the goal of this statement is to help men to be more mindful of their behavior.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:16 AM
Apr 2013

The statement is a bit brash, but I think anyone who supports the nude protests should understand the reason why some feel the need for spirited tactics.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
23. Feminists have been using strong tactics for a long, long time,
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:24 AM
Apr 2013

and women's rights have been expanding. Different people are going to respond to different tactics, so a variety of tactics seems to be the best way to go.

It's getting discussed. It's working.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
304. you are correct
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:53 PM
Apr 2013

on DU these rape arguments go on and on. some do not want to think that men can choose to rape,and you cannot know his intentions until you are faced with it.

Secondly I'm disgusted by all the insecurity,defensiveness and excuses and victim blaming that continually happens,why should it be so contentious? Why do some posters try to derail the point or try to dominate someone who points out a disturbing reality.Why do some defend the perpetrators?

Rape is a Choice and the perpetrator is the only one to be shamed, blamed and face consequences.

A man can be a great caring guy,or he can rape,sometimes nice guys are sociopaths,sometimes curmudgeons are not rapists.But when rape happens to so many people it is important to be aware of the potentials for good or bad.

Humans can be cruel creatures.
Or the kindest beings.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
33. Let me guess
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:51 AM
Apr 2013

You dug up a 7 year old reference in the men's group to a post from a rape victim and have now decided to create a new thread creating a straw man argument.

I'd like to see evidence of this comment you "recently saw." Or is your attempt here just to stir up shit?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
47. Of course not
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:05 AM
Apr 2013

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:40 PM - Edit history (1)

I doubt you'd find anyone alive who would, except possibly someone just raped who was still terrorized. Do you ever think about something like that? That someone who would say something like that is obviously dealing with an incredible level of fear you could never imagine? Do you realize 1 in 3 women in this country have been raped or beaten by a partner? Add those raped by strangers, and you're getting at close to 40% of women who are survivors. Would it occur to you to have some empathy for that experience rather than stirring up shit and creating false arguments that are only going to trigger more pain for survivors? Or could it be you've been reading threads in the feminist and survivor forums and know full well that is the impact of this sort of thread?


I guess we can assume no one has, as you claim, recently said such a thing, so I'll conclude your purpose is this:

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
56. is this the shame me into shutting up tactic? the "it doesn't exist" tactic didn't work did it?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:11 AM
Apr 2013

someone says me, my father, brothers, and nelson mandela are all potential rapists and I should stfu because something may hurt someone's feelings because something terrible may or may not have happened to someone? really?

shit stirrer indeed.

I am glad you disagree (at the moment) with the statement, however.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
58. It was an effort
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:15 AM
Apr 2013

to convince you to cultivate a bit of compassion for survivors of rape, and to realize that they and not you are the victims. But I realize that their trauma and threat to life is meaningless in comparison to the hurt feelings you have that someone somewhere in history might have made such a statement, even if it never was to you or in your presence.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
62. so you are cultivating my compasion now with baseless speculation?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:18 AM
Apr 2013

the old moral high ground tactic - not much missing from your sophistry tool box is there?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
65. I can't cultivate anything
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:20 AM
Apr 2013

Either you have compassion or you don't. I'm pointing out the reality of what these threads do to women on this site. No one can make you care.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
71. Out of curiosity
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:30 AM
Apr 2013

What do you think of in dismissing such information? We'll take as a baseline that you think I'm manipulative. But beyond that, what about the other women on the site.
Do you not care how they feel? Do you enjoy the idea that their trauma might be triggered and experience more pain? Do you not believe that such threads cause women more pain? Or is there something else I haven't considered? How is it that an epidemic of rape in this country leaves you to focus on yourself and other men as victims rather than those who have survived assault?

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
134. so now you're attempting the bullshit "shame me" defense. What a piece of work you are. You throw
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:21 PM
Apr 2013

a LIE and then expect DU'ers to respond to your LIE.

Yeah, you are a shit stirrer.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
38. I think it is nasty for you to drag me into this, but...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 04:58 AM
Apr 2013

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, in 1974

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
-- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think that's too broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that." -- Catherine MacKinnon "A Rally Against Rape" Feminism Unmodified

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
57. So if that was your source
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:11 AM
Apr 2013

You might have posted a quote or two and sought to interrogate that theory. But that wasn't your point was it?

MattBaggins

(7,894 posts)
188. What is so yikes about that?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:43 AM
Apr 2013

Are you that childish that you can't read those statements without getting enraged?

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
45. What I think is nasty
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:05 AM
Apr 2013

Is someone looking at traumatized women who have gone through rape and painting themselves as victims. I can't get my head around that level of callousness.

None of those quotes are recent.

I referenced you because that is the only place I have EVER heard that comment, in your thread.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
60. You did not need to call out my name like that.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:15 AM
Apr 2013

On the old DU, it would have been deleted. It is unethical for you to call me out like that.

Just a few days ago, I sent you a very long message in an attempt to have you see me as a person. I revealed myself to you and have tried to be sensitive to the issues that you brought forth.

I felt progress had been made in reaching across a gap --to see each other as people.

I feel you have betrayed the confidence I placed in you and am disappointed.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
61. I'll happily delete the name
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:16 AM
Apr 2013

It was not malicious. You presented that information in an open thread. I did not betray a confidence.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
63. No, you betrayed something else.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:19 AM
Apr 2013

My good faith efforts to enter into an more human dialog with you as a person.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
68. I actually already felt you betrayed that
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:23 AM
Apr 2013

when you didn't respond to a rather personal note I wrote you. It was clear to me that my experiences were inconsequential to you. I felt I had exercised poor judgement in exposing myself, which is no one's responsibility but my own.

Nonetheless, I had no ill will in invoking your name. I'm sorry I did so.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
77. That was a misread.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:37 AM
Apr 2013

I opened up to you. You reciprocated.

I did not think you were expecting a reply.

Sorry that I misread your expectations for one.

It was not inconsequential at all. In fact, since I received it, I have modified my thinking and actions quite a bit even if you had not noticed since it was primarily a motivation to "tone it down".

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
86. I asked you questions, you didn't respond
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:00 AM
Apr 2013

I disclosed things I tell no one in real life, which again was my choice. I couldn't imagine anyone reading that and not expressing compassion. I myself would feel compelled to do so. Since I obviously have a masochistic streak, I have since repeated the same disclosures in open forums where people who despise me can read about it. Perhaps one day I'll find the courage to talk about it to someone I actually know.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
93. No, you asked a single rhetorical question plus some personal questions.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:20 AM
Apr 2013

And then you added, at the end, with finality:

"I'm sure that's more than you want to know. Thank you for responding to my questions. "

That sounds like a way two-way exchange of messages go.

And I revealed at least as much about myself as you did. Arguably more so since it involves DU history.

Reread your own message to me. You will see that there were no outstanding questions that related to you, other than purely rhetorical ones.

I did not want to answer more personal questions so I did not.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
96. ...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:25 AM
Apr 2013

What prompted your move to Japan? Are your children growing up bilingual? Then there were some more personal questions than is appropriate to repeat here.

Never mind, you owe me absolutely nothing. I am simply telling you how I felt.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
98. Again, they seemed to be not very crucial questions.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:34 AM
Apr 2013

We had already shared the painful stuff and you closed with a "Thank you for sharing".

It was late here and I did not respond because it did not seem that we had outstanding questions between us of import.

I am sorry you misread my thoughts or should I said "over-read" into my not going into (relatively) minor personal chit-chat.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
101. minor personal chit chat?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:41 AM
Apr 2013

That's what you call my telling you about the nature of my marriage?
I give up.

Again, the fault is mine entirely. My judgment in such matters is unfailingly poor.

Response to Bonobo (Reply #77)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
50. I agree. It was a very unethical thing for her to do.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:07 AM
Apr 2013

But coming from someone with 13 currently hidden posts, it's apparently par for the course.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
146. Meh
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:04 PM
Apr 2013

One night she accused me of avoiding her and basically labeled me a coward because I didn't reply to her within minutes of logging on.

Apparently, someone feels the world revolves around them.

ismnotwasm

(41,919 posts)
109. Have you read the works in question here?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:50 PM
Apr 2013

If you've actually read the works in context--any of the women you've quoted, then it's open for a healthy debates. These are prolific writers, and yanking out quote.com saying does not help the conversation.

I have the books.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
74. I followed the first few links
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:31 AM
Apr 2013

the OP used to "prove" his/her point in post #19 and NONE of them say what the OP is claiming. It's a straw man being used to put one of DU's most vocal feminists in her place.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
89. okay, I've figured out my confusion
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:08 AM
Apr 2013

I saw no links because I have some people on ignore and subthreads get lost. But I signed out and found the post and saw that most seem to be from a poster called "the Doctor" who appears to be male. I understand he's trying to single out Seaybeyond, but the statements aren't hers, from what I can tell. Just more shit stirring, per usual.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
97. This OP is using a false premise
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:33 AM
Apr 2013

and then, in a passive/aggressive sort of way, accusing one particular DUer of saying something she never said. The OP's own "proof" (post 19) is what undid his/her argument.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
99. I knew it was false from the start
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:37 AM
Apr 2013

Since I had recently seen the charge in another forum and the only evidence they could come up with was a 7 years old post that was obviously from a rape survivor.
I cannot understand how some men can react to an epidemic of rape and read testimonies of women going through the most horrific experiences and then decide that they, not the rape survivors, are the ones being victimized.

Response to BainsBane (Reply #33)

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
46. no, i think it is utter bs
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:05 AM
Apr 2013

and unhelpful to the cause of equal rights - and off the charts in terms of fallaciousness.

theKed

(1,235 posts)
173. And in those two minutes
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:03 AM
Apr 2013

How many humans were murdered worldwide?

Why aren't you doing something about that?!?!?!OMG~!!!



Note: this is not dismissive of rape. Many, many bad things happen every second of every day. My searching/posting or not will not impact that one iota, on average. I did not rape anybody in the last two minutes, nor do I intend to in the two minutes following. It's simply an asinine statement from you.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
177. You are continually dismissive or rape
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:07 AM
Apr 2013

You have just laughed at the subject, again. This is now the third time you've done that. The first two times were in response to personal stories of horrific rape experiences by women on this site.

Response to BainsBane (Reply #177)

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
191. Another occasion you laughed at rape
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:49 AM
Apr 2013

In this case immediately after a victim told her own personal story, which was the second time in that thread. The first followed a series of women telling their personal stories so you said, let's break out the popcorn and have a good time.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2559371

The above post was the third time I've seen you react with laughter to rape. Others can draw their own conclusions.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
192. thank you, see this other example
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:51 AM
Apr 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2559371
He did so twice in the same thread. There was precedent for the conclusion I reached.

Another person might have said, rape is awful. It's truly terrible that women are raped so often, but I think you are ignoring x point. That, of course, would have required having a point.

So thanks MattBaggins.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
223. The post you've linked to
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:17 AM
Apr 2013

was in response to someone who said, "if I said what I really thought about theKed, I'd be alerted on."

That is what prompted his reply, "Be my guest' - clearly a response to an individual comment, and NOT a response to the overall topic of rape.


pacalo

(24,721 posts)
182. And what point are you making with your statistic?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:16 AM
Apr 2013

That you live your life thinking about how many rapes are occurring at any given time?

That DUers are obligated to think about rape all the time; that DUers are in dire need of daily lectures on rape; that we're to blame for not stopping the rapists?

Why is it that DUers are being treated like punching bags by those who have chips on their shoulders?

Response to pacalo (Reply #182)

Response to MattBaggins (Reply #205)

MattBaggins

(7,894 posts)
204. This is a totally crazy idea but hear me out anyway
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:31 AM
Apr 2013

maybe, a progressive and liberal site like DU is place for people with interests in activist issues to discuss them.

I consider myself a Democrat since I want to make peoples lives better and every case of a woman being raped is one case too many. I think rape should be a top of the list priority for Democrats and should even be a part of our National Party Platform.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
225. And some of us are survivors whose stories have been ignored by the
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:23 AM
Apr 2013

rape 'educators' who turned around and called us 'DU rape culture enablers and apologists' and in a dear poster's case - 'always siding with sexists'. They don't give a SHIT about all women at all, in fact I'd venture to guess they really care about only a very few, and that would be themselves. Seeing them call themselves educators (ie. google warriors) makes me laugh out loud ever time I see it.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
235. Having read enough of your posts to know that you've got your head screwed on straight
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:45 AM
Apr 2013

I admire you even more knowing that you're a rape survivor. Despite having been violated, you don't seem to hate the world & you don't seem to be miserable; in fact, you know bullcrap when you see it. I respect you even more, polly.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
239. Thanks pacalo, that means a lot to me.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:01 AM
Apr 2013

There are many of us who've told our stories, and some of them are brutal .... not a single comment from the group that wants ALL of us to see, think about, and relive rape here day after day. And then called those bullshit names. And thank GOD I'm smart enough to realize that 99.9% of men here are completely empathetic to every woman and man who's gone through it .... I've noticed, much more so than the warriors pounding away on their keyboards day after day claiming the right to 'educate', insult, belittle and lie about those of us who aren't worthy of concern. I lived with DV too for far too long and then volunteered in shelters for years. I've picked up women with the ambulance with injuries so gruesome you'd think they'd gone 12 rounds in the ring. I've seen pretty well all there is to see, and seeing such crap like 'all men benefit from rape' followed by 'rah, rah!!!' like it's all part of some stupid game, actually makes me sick. Someone suggested once they spend a little of their time away from googling up whatever can be found to demonize the men at a shelter, or helping victims in other ways. He was completely ignored. That wouldn't get the drama.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
241. Their problem is that women can see through other women like a pane of glass.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:17 AM
Apr 2013

I haven't been a victim of violence from any man but I've had to overcome other obstacles in my life. I feel like those obstacles have made me stronger & have shown me how to be a better person. I'd like to think that I would take the more positive, constructive approach, like you, in overcoming victimization. You come out a better person when you don't allow it to defeat your outlook on life.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
48. That seems...almost wilfully obtuse
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:06 AM
Apr 2013

"all men are potential rapists". That's not about YOU, or specific male person who would never commit sexual assault, it's about risk assessment and avoidance of strangers in public places. If you're a woman? And you're alone, late at night, in a city? Or even in broad daylight, in some places? Then yes, in fact, all men are potential rapists. We see a lot of discussion of "white privilege"; this seems to be a case of male privilege. As a man one doesn't have to have the same degree of situational and environmental awareness and consciousness of the potential threat of sexual violence that a woman does; this is a simple and unfortunate fact. Pop quiz time: you're a single woman walking alone down a city street, it's after dark, there are two men walking about 50 feet behind you and there are two streetlamps out on the next block up. Do you, a) cross to the well-lit side of the street? b) carry on blithely without a care in the world?

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
69. If my husband saw a woman walking alone at night, he wouldn't attack her.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:26 AM
Apr 2013

So, no, not "all men are potential rapists".

As for "male privilege", too much is being made of this on DU. Rather than preaching to the choir with endless threads about it, these teachable moments about "male privilege" would be better served on the yahoo, aol, etc., sites where the neanderthals habitate.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
79. This isn't about your husband either
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:42 AM
Apr 2013

and how is random, hypothetical woman in question supposed to KNOW that? She won't.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
164. It's about my husband or any other random man when someone, such as you, says this...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:56 PM
Apr 2013
...it's about risk assessment and avoidance of strangers in public places. If you're a woman? And you're alone, late at night, in a city? Or even in broad daylight, in some places? Then yes, in fact, all men are potential rapists. We see a lot of discussion of "white privilege"; this seems to be a case of male privilege.


My husband is included when the term all men is used.

I'm profoundly sorry for any woman who feels such a high level of risk just to step out into the world. It must be awful to live one's life feeling this way, but that's what therapists are for -- to overcome such a low level of self esteem & fear of a world full of strangers. Taking one's unfortunate life experiences out on DUers is not only flat-out wrong, but doing so makes the "victim" the aggressor.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
187. And? Do you actually have a point?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:39 AM
Apr 2013

Yes, your husband is included; so am I, for that matter; I'm not a rapist and wouldn't sexually assault anyone, but you know, I wouldn't really expect a complete stranger who happens to see me on a city street after dark to know that, either. The problem both you and the OP seem to have is in understanding this fact. How many women do you know who have a canister of pepper spray or a rape alarm on their keyring? Do you regard that as irrational? Because it's the same thing, to some extent.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
196. I was responding to what you wrote to me -- did you forget that you replied that
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:02 AM
Apr 2013

what you said in the previous post (#48) had "nothing to do with your husband"? The point is that I disagreed with your #48 comment.

There's nothing wrong with taking precautions (pepper spray, not walking on a street at night alone, dressing appropriately), but a constant fear of impending attacks is irrational thinking that can only be remedied with professional help.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
202. Sorry, but...
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:28 AM
Apr 2013

you're the one behaving irrationally here when you say that on the one hand, caution is fine, but on the other hand, despite the fact that your husband is a subset of the larger group "all men", that a generalisation regarding men unknown to one is somehow personally directed against your husband (or any other particular man), when it isn't; the fact remains that it's quite reasonable, statistically speaking, for a woman in a given situation to perceive ANY man as a potential threat. The fact that a particular man may NOT be a potential threat doesn't negate that. (And..."dressing appropriately"? REALLY? That's about a step away from "well she shouldn't have been dressed like that".)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
216. We disagree & that's fine.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:42 AM
Apr 2013

There are two mindsets with different life experiences. I can't comprehend what it's like to fear every strange man because I've never been given a reason to feel that way. I'm genuinely sympathetic to those who have had bad experiences, but when it affects one's life to the extent that she's not able to enjoy life, that everyone who hasn't experienced it becomes her punching bag, then seeking professional counseling, rather than stirring up controversy on a discussion board, is the sensible thing to do.

I stand by my "dressing appropriately" comment. The latest politically-correct talking point is nothing if it doesn't pass the common sense test. When someone is so fearful of being attacked, she should take responsibility for her own actions.

Response to pacalo (Reply #216)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
226. You know that for a fact, do you.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:31 AM
Apr 2013

How we women present ourselves has a lot to do with how we are perceived. That's a fact; it's common sense.

Response to pacalo (Reply #226)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
236. "Only thing" is disingenuous.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:49 AM
Apr 2013

A woman who is fearful of all strange men who may attack her & who wears provocative clothing is oxymoronic.

Response to pacalo (Reply #236)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
240. For someone with under 20 posts...
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:07 AM
Apr 2013

(1) how much could you have seen to qualify such a comment as "you are the only person..."?

(2) you seem to be comfortable with pursuing an argument.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
244. not if a woman was dressed conservatively and raped by guys they never would have
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:47 AM
Apr 2013

thought would be the type to do that.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
248. are you serious ? so how should a woman dress to avoid being raped ?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:05 AM
Apr 2013

and as i said most rape is done by people the victim knows. it's not usually some stranger on the street who grabs them .

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
258. Can you provide a better example of how everyday people (unwisely) dress?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:30 AM
Apr 2013

You asked for an example & I gave you one. What's your point?

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
302. Even if they dress that way in hopes of attracting a man's attention
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:25 PM
Apr 2013

the goal is a voluntary, consensual relationship not rape.

myrna minx

(22,772 posts)
324. I find this victim blaming to be appalling.
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 10:34 AM
Apr 2013

Your opinion is the same justification for the use of the burka.

myrna minx

(22,772 posts)
337. Tastefully dressed women are raped too. As are children, teens, men, the elderly.
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 08:35 PM
Apr 2013

People in various states of dress, "taste" etc. The "she's just asking for it" attitude is absolutely appalling.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
338. It's also appalling that there seems to be an ironclad, every-issue-is-black-&-white mindset
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 09:02 PM
Apr 2013

with no room for differing opinions. The context in which I included "dressing sensibly" was in answer to those who were afraid of strange men in public, with the mindset that each stranger had the potential to attack them. If I had that deepset fear, the first thing on my mind would be to do what I can to prevent that from happening to me.

Without going into detail, I can assure you that I'm far from being a prude.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
312. I was raped in my own apartment
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:27 PM
Apr 2013

While wearing pajamas early in the morning.

How, exactly, did what I was wearing affect what happened to me?

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
313. What I wrote shouldn't be read with a black & white mindset.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:42 PM
Apr 2013

Clearly, what I wrote obviously doesn't apply in your unfortunate situation. (Sorry that happened to you.)

Go to "people at Walmart", which shows a good sampling of how some women dress, to get an idea of what I had in mind.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
314. I'm sorry, but without data, I'm not buying the assumption that clothing matters
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:59 PM
Apr 2013

Everyone "knows" all kinds of things about rapes...that they happen in bad parts of town to women dressed provocatively. Unless you have data to back up your assertion that a woman is more likely to get raped in provocative dress than in normal dress, I'm not buying it.

I have literally thousands of data points about my own life wearing pajamas and probably a hundred or more data points about wearing high cut skirts, and I can tell you the only time I was raped happened in pajamas.

Where are your data?

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
316. I'm not asking you to buy it. I was replying to your question.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:10 PM
Apr 2013

There's nothing wrong with being sensible & taking precautions -- especially when, as mentioned throughout this thread, some women are afraid to go out alone around strange men. It's in that context that I commented about taking some responsibility for oneself.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
201. Low level of self esteem?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:12 AM
Apr 2013

Really? And a bit of therapy. What a peach you are. Victims are the aggressors? I want to make sure I have your explanation correct. But I think I need to barf first.

Response to HangOnKids (Reply #201)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
243. You don't have my explanation correct &, as you said, you want to "make sure you have it right"...
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:27 AM
Apr 2013


No surprise here, but you're taking "victims are the aggressors" out of context.

Taking one's unfortunate life experiences out on DUers is not only flat-out wrong, but doing so makes the "victim" the aggressor.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
218. I'll make sure to let my daughter know that pacalo's husband is a-okay and to go
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:47 AM
Apr 2013

right ahead and get into an elevator alone with him. Could you please give me his name and driver's license # so she can start checking IDs in case she runs into him?

FYI, potential does not mean future, or probable, or likely. And I think the problem with that phrase is that most people think it means all or one of those three.

I really don't appreciate you mocking the level of precautions that many women take when stepping out in the world. The vast majority of women don't consciously feel that there is a high level of risk because precautions against risk have been ingrained in them and their precautions are rote. I've was raised with them and I've raised my daughter to be aware of potential dangers. I taught her defense skills. Funny enough, her dad was far more freaked out about expanding her freedom and there were many things that I let her do in secret - that is, we outright lied to him - because if we had told him the truth, he would have vigorously fought permission for her to engage in about 1/3-1/2 of her tweenage and teenage activity. In my experience, most mothers are willing to allow more freedom for their daughters than most dads are.

Now, I'd like to revisit the notion that "all men are potential rapists". It does not mean that all men have the inclination to rape given the opportunity. It means that women need to realize the majority of rapists aren't the scary abductors on the street. It means that a rapist can be that scary stranger man or a rapist can be "regular ole man". An uncle, a dad, a stepdad, a boyfriend, a husband, a neighbor, a classmate, an acquaintance; and since 80% of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by someone the woman knows, all the "stranger danger" precautions don't mean squat in real life situations. I myself was raised on the stranger danger model and was sexually assaulted in the 1960s by two uncles and didn't say a word to anyone. I raised my daughter in the 1990s, and in concurrence with all the public education warning her about how to protect herself out on the streets, I made sure that she had the skills to protect herself domestically, as well.

Finally, a friend of mine was abducted by a co-workers husband and raped and tortured for three days in a hotel in the desert. She managed to escape. She was his first victim to do so. She and everyone who knew him, including his wife, were incredulous that he was capable of doing such. My friend still states that up to the point that he was behind her with his arm around her neck and a knife in her back, he was a very nice guy.





pacalo

(24,721 posts)
221. You're reading into my posts what you wanted to read.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:12 AM
Apr 2013

Taking precautions is common sense. Obsessing over it & allowing it to rule your life is the issue that concerns me.

I really have nothing to say about the fact that you lie to your husband in order to give your daughter more freedom after all the personal information you've given in the same post, except that I'm extremely sorry you were victimized by your uncles.

Take care.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
228. Who is obsessing over it? Who claims that it is ruling their life?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:34 AM
Apr 2013

Yeah, I'm not happy I lied to my husband (our daughter is 23 now, so the lying is long over) but he was so extremely over protective that lying avoided a whole hell of a lot of grief and probably divorce. I love him with all my heart but there was no way that I was going to allow his irrational fear (learned at his father's knee) put her in a box. We've all made it through okay. We are a fantastic family unit. I've vowed to spill it all when we are 85 and on vacation in Barcelona, our favorite city.

Thank you for the uncle thing and you take care, too.

Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #218)

Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #232)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
249. For a newbie under 20 posts, it seems you'd be more concerned with building credibility
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:06 AM
Apr 2013

than with sabotoging it. Nowhere did I say or imply "it's not the man's fault".

Response to pacalo (Reply #249)

JI7

(89,173 posts)
251. when you mention things like how women dress it does put some blame on women
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:16 AM
Apr 2013

and takes at least some fault away from the men who rape.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
254. Or it could mean being responsible
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:24 AM
Apr 2013

by not teasingly presenting oneself to strangers as "I want your attention".

JI7

(89,173 posts)
255. when i see men without their shirt on i don't assume they are doing it for my attention
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:25 AM
Apr 2013

and especially not an invitation to do anything i want to them.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
259. Having been married to one of those "mens" for 33 years, I can assure you that men's
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:34 AM
Apr 2013

& women's brains are wired differently. Women are more sexually stimulated in the brain; men are more stimulated visually.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
297. Could that be because 99% of all rapists are men?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:58 PM
Apr 2013

At least according to US statistics. Why would there be much news about women rapists? They make up 1 out of 100 rapists, and therefore 1 out of 100 news stories about rape if the news media treated rape by women rapists as they do rapes by men rapists, which they don't. In most cases where a woman rapes a man, men (yes, men) refuse to treat it as rape, and claim the victim should be glad he "got some." This is especially the case of statutory rape of boys, and many men even here on DU claim a woman raping a teenage boy isn't rape. I'm pretty sure that in all the threads on these cases on DU, you will find women DUers decrying it as rape, and men DUers protesting.


Oh, and by the way, my statistics are taken from this Department of Justice report:

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

"[T]he characteristics of those categorized as rapists: 99 in 100 are male, 6 in 10 are white, and the average age is the early thirties." (p.V)

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
315. He's wired differently.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:07 PM
Apr 2013

Boys being boys.

This is the closest assertion I've seen anywhere in this thread that all men really are potential rapists. Ridiculous.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
318. I stand by my comment.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:19 PM
Apr 2013

Men do get stimulated visually, but that doesn't make all of them rapists, as you ridiculously asserted.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
319. I never asserted that
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:29 PM
Apr 2013

What I said is that all women must assume strange men could be a potential rapist the same way anyone has to assume a stranger who asks for a SSN could be a potential identity thief.

You're the one making excuses for men who rape -- she was dressed provocatively...it's his nature.

Now it's time for me to go home, so I won't be answering your posts any longer. Have a good night and a good life, and I hope you never have to personally face the reality of rape and regret your unwarranted assumptions.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
276. Yes, because talking about how victims dress isn't a very common derailing tactic.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:07 AM
Apr 2013

Hundreds of defense lawyers haven't used that excuse when they defended accused rapists in court, and it doesn't at all shift blame from rapist to victim.

Honestly, regardless of what anyone wears, it is not an invitations to rape,a nd the fact that rapists use that excuse means that ordinary folks who should be decent, support them, because they know it works. Those of us with our eyes open, know that it doesn't matter what we wear (diaper, in the case of the 6-month old raped to death in Ohio) or slacks and cardigan (in the case of the 98-year old raped and killed in Norway) or a summer dress, (in my case) - anyone is a potential rape victim, and anyone is a potential rapist. Statistics, however, tell us that rapists are usually men, and they're usually someone we know, but we have been taught to fear men when we are out after dark, because we well know that if we are raped when we're walking home from an activity after dark, we'll most likely be blamed in some fashion. Just like you're doing right now.

Response to pacalo (Reply #254)

Behind the Aegis

(53,823 posts)
73. By the same token...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:31 AM
Apr 2013

...all heterosexuals are potential gay-bashers. As for your "pop quiz," I was taught to cross the street or find a public place. I am male and I would be uncomfortable "walking alone down a city street, it's after dark, there are two men walking about 50 feet behind" me. I am a rape survivor, raped by a male, and I don't see "all men as potential rapists."

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
82. I used to think it was willful as well.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:49 AM
Apr 2013

Now I just think it's blissfully obtuse, with a dash of cruelty thrown in, for shits and giggles. Some people just have to get their victim on, no matter what.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
285. "...well-lit side of the road." That's where this ol' boy goes...
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:02 AM
Apr 2013

I feel no sense of privilege in these circumstances, though I can puff up and look like the growling Cracker I am accurately accused of being. It strikes me that what you are talking about is good self-defense practices recommended for ANYONE.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
72. Frankly I don't give a shit. Why? BECAUSE I KNOW I'M NOT A FUCKING POTENTIAL RAPIST.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:31 AM
Apr 2013

Comments made by random posters on a message board mean virtually nothing to me. And extreme statements made by "radical" feminists do not, generally speaking, affect my day to day life one iota.

And as for the men who (God forbid) DO rape? You think they affect women's day to day lives, even women who aren't their victims? Of course they fucking do. By making it that much more difficult to live with peace of mind.

So PLEASE try to have a little perspective here.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
90. ANY man MIGHT be a potential rapist
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:11 AM
Apr 2013

is probably closer to how some rape victims feel, in that they don't know who might attack them in the future. I, on the other hand, know that NO MAN will EVER physically harm me in any way again.

joeunderdog

(2,563 posts)
321. You could say the same for women.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:51 PM
Apr 2013

It's true. Not likely, but true. Incest and abusive (lesbian) relationships are examples.

And while both are true, I don't see the constructive value of these kinds of sweeping statements.

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
103. Locking
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:48 AM
Apr 2013

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:46 PM - Edit history (1)

This reeks of Meta. In the absense of other GD hosts being round, I'm locking until we can discuss and reach a consensus on this one.

On edit : in the absence of a consensus amongst hosts I've unlocked

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
114. This is a Meta call out thread
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:02 PM
Apr 2013

The entire point is to try to accuse a member of saying something she actually never did. The only evidence the OP can point to is other members accusing her of saying it. But even if the point were true, it's Meta gladiator tactics. It's not a legitimate or thoughtful discussion of anything. The entire point of this thread is to sow discord. Do the host really think there isn't enough of that already?

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
117. This is a ridiculous thread. It is obviously shit stirring and has no value. The fact that it was
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:27 PM
Apr 2013

unlocked is a pretty poor reflection on DU. The hosts need a nap and a rethink.

Actually, I shouldn't say it has no value. It's a good place to go when creating one's ignore list.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
119. This is pure shit stirring Meta bullshit and should have remained locked.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:34 PM
Apr 2013

Not blaming you, VC, but something is rotten in Denmark if our GD hosts think this meets SOP.

Response to polly7 (Reply #105)

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
108. Interesting seeing the names of those who "atta-girl"-ed that.. oh wait.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:47 PM
Apr 2013

they never actually do any of that kind of thing... (at least, that's what they always claim, no?)

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
189. I just read through that thread. What in the world does it even mean?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:47 AM
Apr 2013

What benefits do non-rapists get from those who do rape?

That's twisted -- yet a lot of agreement that it was profound & spot on.

I have to feel sorry for the men who visit there looking for advice on how women think. Talk about taking a wrong turn!


polly7

(20,582 posts)
227. The same benefits we as adults get when someone molests a child, I would imagine.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:33 AM
Apr 2013

It reinforces our power system and keeps those kids in their places. Seriously, that was one of the ugliest things I've seen said here and the cheer-leading for it was pure gross.

RiffRandell

(5,909 posts)
283. I'm in total agreement.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 10:39 AM
Apr 2013

What a disgusting and disgraceful post---as well as the responses in support of it. Wow.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
115. All humans
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:02 PM
Apr 2013

are potentially those that foment discord. Needlessly. Under the guise of "I'm just sayin' ".

Faulty logic might be faulty logic, but stirring up bullshit smells loud and clear to everybody that actually wants the fresh air of discussion.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
116. Have you forgotten this from a year ago? You seemed to be grasping the concept then.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:09 PM
Apr 2013
Star Member arely staircase (3,710 posts)
196. i think you are being a bit more clear, i think


if you are saying that a man's social position/status, nice personality, etc. do not make him less likely to be a rapist - that a rapist can be any man in that sense, i agree. i thought you were saying that within every individual man lies a potential rapist - and if that is waht you are saying, i disagree strongly. but if the first point is what you are making, i'm with you. and that would be not only with rapists, but ones who murder their victims as well - Ted Bundy comes to mind - came across as a really nice, polite, smart young man. he was active in the Republican Party I believe.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002187959#post196

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
122. Well isn't *that* interesting...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:36 PM
Apr 2013

Methinks someone's animosity and personal agenda has outweighed critical and empathetic thinking.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
125. Particularly in light of post #19
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:39 PM
Apr 2013

In which seabeyond is included in the search string.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022606782#post19

arely staircase (3,710 posts)
19. please choose from the buffet

View profile

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2013, 01:15 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
http://www.google.com/search?q=all+men+are+potential+rapists+seabeyond&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
126. Yes, it IS pretty good evidence.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:40 PM
Apr 2013

That you can take even a person who understands and empathizes and, through complete over-the-top bullying, antagonizing and just plain old fashioned rudeness, transform them into someone who seems angry.

Big surprise.

Act like an asshole long enough and you create enemies.

Who knew?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
127. This thread is designed to do one thing
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:45 PM
Apr 2013

Stir up shit and pit members against one another due to an ancient feud that obviously hasn't been overcome. The last thing that needs to happen is for other DU members to take part in it. This is a call out thread that should have been locked several replies ago.

ohiosmith

(24,262 posts)
138. This post was alerted on! The jury voted 5/1 to let it stand!
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:32 PM
Apr 2013

At Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yes, it IS pretty good evidence.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2611513

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

A personal attack against Sebeyond. This entire thread is a callout of her, as evidenced in post 19: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022606782#post19 Bonobo and others here know that, so he is insulting her purposefully.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:28 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: GMAFB! Leave the post!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I agree with the alerter this thread is a total call-out of seabeyond. I think I even alerted on some of it. But THIS post is more generalized and is a legitimate commentary on behavior. I don't agree with it, but I just can't vote to hide for that reason. I am so sorry. This thread DOES need to be shut down, but the OP is the main antagonist and instigator. I hope there have been many alerts on the OP with ToS checked. Admins WILL see them even if they aren't hidden. OP is shit stirring AND incorrect. Such bullshit, I can't believe this obnoxious thread is still going.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I have watched this gang of men attack Seabeyond for too long now. How do they get away with this. Du has become a hostile place for any woman that speaks out.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This is one of the things that I dislike most about DU3: Can't win an argument because you're just plain wrong, so you hit the alert button and hope you get a jury that will empathize with you.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
145. the take away is
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:57 PM
Apr 2013

If you're going to call someone an asshole, make sure she's a feminist. Then someone will run and be proud that a personal attack against a woman was allowed to stand.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
151. More and more meta upon meta upon meta.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:10 PM
Apr 2013

Remove all the meta and there is nothing.

But at least it keeps the wheels greased, eh?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
165. Some one needs to back off, that's for sure.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:56 PM
Apr 2013

If we were discussing actual issues, I am curious if there would be any disagreement.

I do not think so.

In other words, all the "fighting" is Meta as well. There is literally no substance.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
175. I did not disagree with the locking.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:05 AM
Apr 2013

And I really, really do feel bad about my lack of response to your PM. I wish I could say it to your face.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
179. Thank you
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:11 AM
Apr 2013

I appreciate your saying so. To be honest, we knock heads on issues, and I something want to pull my hair out over what you say, but I see you as having a core humanity that I don't see in a few others here. My post to your inquiry below talks about a cruel streak by some posters. I don't feel that from you. I feel you don't quite get things somethings, as I'm sure you do with me.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
181. And thank you for saying that.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:13 AM
Apr 2013

I hope to continue to try to lessen the gap that currently exists and I do think it is possible because so much of it is emotion-based and not substance-based.

Acknowledging another person's feelings and recognizing that different life experiences can lead to different emphases on the same issues is an important first step, I think.

Kali

(54,990 posts)
140. this sounds like a very tenuous excuse for the OPs erroneous bullshit
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:34 PM
Apr 2013

because some uppity women (or just one, this whole bullshit thread is a callout of one person, really) talk harshly and won't STFU about their views that is an excuse for this OP to try and smear one of them with lies?

no, argue issues and positions. hell even complain about approach, but don't LIE about what someone said and misrepresent even one's OWN point of view just to publicly punish someone that you disagree with. at LEAST get the facts straight.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
130. I think it is curious that nobody seems to be grasping the concept now
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:50 PM
Apr 2013

it seems pretty obviously and undeniably true to me, but also kinda empty.

Sorta like the OP said "all people are potential murderers"

Seems true to me, but what follows from that?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
121. Are we here for DU
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:36 PM
Apr 2013

and to discuss things, or are we here to indulge in pure shit-stirring and dividing members against one another?

This is a fucked up OP, and I usually don't use such language, but here it is appropriate. This needs to be locked, and if you don't have consensus among the hosts, you need to see how many MEMBERS think this is a fucked up call out.

Arcanetrance

(2,670 posts)
135. Personally as a guy I've never seen anyone call "all men rapists"
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:22 PM
Apr 2013

I've seen a few point out that due to a rape culture that's exists. It's hard for woman to walk down the street or be around a group of men in fear for their safety. To me that doesn't mean they're saying all men are rapists. Sadly this culture does exist and hurts all of us.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
137. The fact that this thread
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:31 PM
Apr 2013

which is a clear call out, couldn't get a clear consensus among the hosts tells me that perhaps my money might be better spent elsewhere than on DU donations.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
144. Is Jeff Goldblum behind the shenanigans here? Very possible.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:56 PM
Apr 2013

There is indeed a strong possibility that Jeff Goldblum is an insect. Which one is open to debate.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
143. If you can't handle an actual argument about feminism
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:54 PM
Apr 2013

Invent a false one. It's so much easier than employing reason.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
150. There really are no substantive issues on Feminism that anyone here disagrees with.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:10 PM
Apr 2013

Creating the false impression of enemies is a sort of sub-specialty here.

If you can name an actual issue of equal rights, not an impression, not an emotion, not a Meta-issue, that DU'ers disagree with --I would like to hear it.

Self-referential BS does not count. I mean actual substance. Where IS all the true disagreement with Feminist issues?

I submit that there is none. That it is 99.9% whipped up outrage.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
158. Who whipped up this outrage and who was the target?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:36 PM
Apr 2013

And it appears that Mr Bevan down thread is seeking to add to the goo.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
159. In this post, it may have been the OP vs. HOF-fers, but...
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:39 PM
Apr 2013

I think, in balance, it is usually HOF-fers creating heat when there is no fire.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
167. I see quite a bit of really nasty stuff about a handful of women.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:57 PM
Apr 2013

Snide remarks back and forth when they are not even in the thread.

I used to look in on all the feminists forums now and then but I've never participated even though I enjoy the academic side of feminism. But these unrelenting attacks have, in essence, "driven me into their arms" and has inspired me to speak up more in defense of the misrepresentation of much of the feminist theory discussed in GD.

As a feminist, I really do not feel safe in GD. If I happen to agree or take the side of the women who are regularly derided, I am accused of being part of the swarm or the hive and to watch my tone. Tone? Tone is mostly in the readers head.

I believe the participation in History of Feminism (HoF) has increased since Meta has closed down and some DUers have begun to openly mock some feminists in GD with petty door threads (I think I hid over 30) and "joking" tit threads. So, despite all those who claim that HoF is ruining it for other feminists, quite a few women are liking what they see there and what they are trying to do in GD.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
174. I totally understand your feelings, but it really IS a two-way street.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:04 AM
Apr 2013

Now, if there were substantive disagreements, that would be a different story.

But just as you say you feel driven into "their arms", many of us also feel that, despite the fact that we are feminists ourselves (defined by as being for equal rights), we have been driven away and painted falsely as the enemy in order to be a convenient springboard.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
208. I did lay out several for you
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:41 AM
Apr 2013

Quite thoroughly actually. Perhaps you can have a look when you have time.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
210. Could you point me to where to look please.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:42 AM
Apr 2013

So many threads, so many responses.

Not sure where you posted it. Thanks in advance.

MattBaggins

(7,894 posts)
195. I am a man who has never posted in HoF
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:02 AM
Apr 2013

but lately the disgusting behavior of the Radical MRA types tolerated on DU is getting way out of line.

I wish they would keep that shit on their 4chann and reddit accounts.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
198. I hope you check it out and join in sometimes.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:06 AM
Apr 2013

As yet, I haven't posted anything substantive but I expect I will soon.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
199. Congratulations.. you managed a trifecta of meaningless dog whistles..
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:08 AM
Apr 2013

"MRAs", "4Chan", and "Reddit". You must be so proud.

MattBaggins

(7,894 posts)
200. If only I was half as good as the OP
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:11 AM
Apr 2013

or the MRAers in question eh?

Fight fire with fire and strawmen with strawmen.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
245. And DU is the place for "all men are potential rapists" & "all men benefit from rapists"?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:49 AM
Apr 2013
I wish they would keep that shit on (...)


...jezebel, whatever, accounts.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
293. Frequently when HoF is demonized in GD (or the now defunct Meta)...
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

...the number of subscribes to the group increases, and we see new faces in the group. I've been watching this happen for a while.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
161. EEOC laws are one
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:54 PM
Apr 2013

Few in the Richards threads seem to think EEOC laws are legitimate. Labor attorneys have argued that she was illegally fired
(http://www.rmlawyers.com/blog/2013/03/sendgrids-unlawful-and-retaliatory-termination-of-adria-richards.shtml), but dozens here seem to think she deserved what was coming to her and aren't at all concerned with rape and death threats against her.

Some obviously don't see wage inequality as an issue. I've seen someone here argue that it's unfair that white men are the only demographic who earn less than their parents and that women are unfairly compensated in the workforce.

Rape and domestic violence doesn't concern them. Several men have told me women in this country don't face real sexism. The fact that we are killed at rates higher than in much of the world and that 1 in 3 women are raped or abused by their partners incur concern from very few. In fact, I've seen responses arguing that expressing frustration over such conditions is itself misandry. In fact, I would submit that there are men here who see feminism itself as misandry, at least feminism that challenges them in any way. Then there is the complete absence of concern about human trafficking and slavery and their relationship to pornography and prostitution. Those are women who are kept in bondage, raped, and killed. No one is going to say they think rape or slavery is okay; they just can't be bothered to care. Moreover, they strike out against those who discuss the topic as misandrists, as this very thread does. The idea that the take away from an epidemic of violence against women is to worry about men's feelings because of something someone might have once said is willfully hostile and dismissive of rape survivors. A few here even go so far as to be deliberately cruel to survivors. That is a characteristic that defies all comprehension. Yes, I could provide many examples but I won't do so because that makes people very, very angry.

Truthfully, on issues of rape, violence, and interpersonal relations, I see no correlation between political affiliation and views on women. There are no studies showing that Republicans are more likely to rape, beat, or kill their partners. There is a correlation on abortion rights, but other than that I can't think of an issue where party affiliation matters. Perhaps you'll be able to point some out to me.

People have lots of reasons for how they vote. Women's issues rate very low for most men. Most are Democrats for other reasons, which is entirely their prerogative. I, however, resent being told I'm supposed to see them as allies when they oppose everything that matters to me-- equal work for equal pay, gun control, greater attention to issues of rape and violence against women. If they can't support laws providing for a workplace free of discrimination, laws passed under Republican congresses and administrations, how are they my allies? If it's campaign season and I'm knocking on doors, I'm thrilled they are voting for a Democrat. Of course in my city you have to walk a long way to find a Republican, but still I'm thrilled they aren't one of those few. Other than that, I have nothing in common with the most vocal anti-feminists on this site. Prior to the Adria Richards threads I would have said they are a small minority. I expect they still are a minority, but not as small as I hoped. It's clear to me these individuals---which, by the way, include some women--don't share my core commitment to human equality. Without that, there can be no common ground. I'm happy about that D vote, but they aren't my peers, friends, or allies.

cliffordu

(30,994 posts)
211. Can you ACTUALLY point us to a real statistic on this quote:
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 01:44 AM
Apr 2013

"The fact that we are killed at rates higher than in much of the world and that 1 in 3 women are raped or abused by their partners incur concern from very few."


One in three?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
214. Let me unpack that to try to tease out the issues.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:06 AM
Apr 2013

I will try to list up the issues here, but issues are not everything of course. To a large degree, I think it is the priority and relative importance that these issues have for people that are seen as the dividing point between people. I acknowledge that. It is easy to be "against rape", but how much of an issue do I make of that (in terms of posts for example) vs. the number of posts I make about drone warfare, etc. --This sense of "lack of attention" may be one of the perceptual issues that cause a rift between some.

Here is the list and my brief (for the time being) comments on my own feelings, positions on them,

--------------
Rape and domestic violence: Men are usually larger and/or stronger than women and there is far too much violence by men against women. Men need to be raised and taught to respect women and their domestic partners and to not commit or threaten with violence. Men who commit violence should be dealt with by the police and courts and may also need some kind of counseling to help them to adjust their behavior. I do not see any disagreement on this although I can recognize that if I counter with the fact that men are also hit by women or threatened with violence or emotional abuse, it would lead to the FEELING that I am denying or trying to minimalize the seriousness of the issue. The truth is that it is a big problem and I do recognize that.

Human trafficking and slavery and their relationship to pornography and prostitution (bondage, slavery): I recognize that the lack of choices in a person's life may lead them to be forced to pornography or prostitution. Men are horny in general this leads to an opportunity for men and women to take advantage of that potential for $$$$. It is a complex issue because while there is human trafficking, there is also the element of choice in some pornography and prostitution so it is hard to make blanket statements. To go further, I see prostitution as a scale rather than a yes or no issue. I have known some women who knowingly offer themselves up for dates or other in order to be "taken care of" or maybe just to "score some weed". It happens and to blame it all on the men who desire sex is to deny women agency. Sex, like all things people desire, can lead to bad results, so it is complicated.

Equal work for equal pay: Absolutely no room for disagreement here.

Gun control: Unrelated to gender issues mostly.

Workplace free of discrimination: Absolutely no room for disagreement here except for what constitutes discrimination. I do not think making a penis joke, a breast joke or the like itself constitutes discrimination unless it occurs frequently and over and over as a pattern of abuse.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
217. priority is a good point
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:43 AM
Apr 2013

but I gauge that not in terms of number of posts but HOW people respond. This thread for example, or posters who show a lack of compassion or even cruelty toward victims of assault. Men certainly are victims or rape and domestic violence and I have ZERO problem with your raising that very important point. What I have a problem with are threads like these that seek to create some sort of parallel on how a man might feel about a possible charge sometime, somewhere in the past that a rape victim might see all men as potential assailants because that really is what that post is about. Spider Jerusalem explained that concept as well as I've seen, so I'll simply link to it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2606903

Rather than seeking to understand what a rape victim might feel, the terror that might lead her to write something like that, some men paint themselves as the victim. Now I know I've called you on this in the past, and to your credit you thought about it, which is more than others here do. I agree with Spider J that they are being willfully obtuse and deliberately dismissive of the trauma of rape, as we by a few posters in this very thread. Then of course there is the fact that the most recent example they could find of such a statement was a year ago, when since then millions of women have been raped, a couple of hundred thousand in this country alone. Think about that: one comment in a year vs. hundreds of thousands of rapes. Is there really any kind of equivalency? Never in a million years would I diminish the suffering of men who have suffered rape or domestic battery. True, many more women face those crimes, but it is no less severe when perpetrated on a man. Basic safety is the most important issue to any human being. Someone who can't support a woman or man's right to that safety stands worlds apart from me. Someone who refuses to consider the pain and terror that rape victims go through and instead considers his own hurt feelings about hearing about rape more important, in my view, lacks the basic humanity to be an ally to anyone. We all say stupid things at times, but some show a consistent lack of compassion that I find chilling.

Slavery: You appear uninformed on the issue. I'm not talking about people who enter pornography and prostitution for lack of other options, though that certainly is an issue. I'm talking of women and boys who are slaves: forced, beaten, owned by others. There are currently more people living under slavery than at any point in human history and most are women. Slavery is enmeshed in the sex industry globally and in the US. Slaves also labor as domestics and even in industry. Hillary Clinton brought some attention to this as Secretary of State and you can find information on the websites of state, the UN, and many non-profit organizations working on the issue. CSPAN has video of an excellent conference at Yale's Gilder Lehrman Center for Slavery last year.

Gun control: Far more men die of gun violence than women, but of course more men are assailants too. I raise the issue because it is my number one political priority and because some who oppose gun control have claimed I should see them as my allies. Though I must confess the rape threads have tested my commitment. I'm determined to never again be a victim of any kind. How can I be sure that won't happen? I need to think about self defense, but a gun isn't the right solution, though frankly it crossed my mind today.

Workplace discrimination: The point about the Richards case is that joke was part of a larger pattern, which is why conference organizers took in seriously. as did the employer of one of the men involved. That pattern of a male dominated industry is such that there have been several reported rapes at their conferences. Both Rex and Recursion work in that field and have spoken about it. Both members are amazing allies for women. I disagree with them on some other issues but this key commitment to gender equality gives me utmost respect and admiration for them. The way so many responded to that incident tells me that do not support a non-discriminatory workplace and feel compelled to vilify that African America, lesbian woman, if not women more generally.

Then of course there is the ridiculous bullying tactic against HOF members. Anyone who does something so stupid declares themselves--both men and women are involved--enemies of feminism. in my mind. Disagree with points all they like, but this petty bullying shit they do is absurd. Few seem to be able to articulate a single point of disagreement, so I guess personal swipes are all they have. But I have no doubt the core issue is their resentment that I and some others won't shut up about women's rights. They are right. I won't shut up. Targeting feminists tells me they oppose the issues I care about, and in most cases they do, as this thread demonstrates.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
154. How about "all men benefit from rape"?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:15 PM
Apr 2013

I get the impression that there are some here who enjoy bashing men. Or who enjoy shit-stirring, and bash men to achieve this end.

As an example, there was a thread a couple of months ago that discussed the fear of rape that all women have. As a father of daughters and as a husband I completely sympathize with this issue and posted accordingly. The makings of a productive thread. But then of course someone went over the top and posted that "all men benefit from rape". An offensive and ridiculous statement, especially to someone who worries about his wife and daughters. Many other DUers objected to this statement but plenty of DUers doubled down on it and the thread was pretty much derailed. Almost as though certain DUers did not like the idea of an anti-rape thread where male and female DUers were generally in agreement, and were determined to stir the shit.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2154087

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
172. how about bashing rape victims?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:01 AM
Apr 2013

Ever occur to you that might not be very nice? That is precisely what this thread is doing.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
193. I remember "all men benefit from rape" but not "all men are potential rapists".
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:54 AM
Apr 2013

I actually find the former to be quite a bit more offensive.

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
264. Because rape related topics are controversial,
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:38 AM
Apr 2013

And since meta is gone, there is a limited amout of argument causing topics. I think.

Response to Jamastiene (Reply #234)

delrem

(9,688 posts)
246. ouch! That's the worst meme ever invented.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:52 AM
Apr 2013

The meme is decades old, and I don't really take anybody to account because of it.

What I don't like about it is that it is totally negative and it doesn't add anything positive to the mix, whereas it's obvious just because not all men are rapists, so something positive does exist.
So something pretty damn essential is missing in the meme.

But I think that is pretty much obvious to most everyone.
I don't mind the meme being brought up again in 2013, tho', because it does cause a (male) person to think.

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
257. Let me make this SIMPLE
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:26 AM
Apr 2013

Reality is...

All men ARE potential rapists.

Why?

Because males have a penis that hardens to the point it can penetrate orifices, it's biological fact.. A penis can be used as a WEAPON. Any man that has a functioning penis potentally can decide in his own mind to use that penis as a weapon.Why because he CAN. Biologically any man can potentially be a rapist to anyone with an orifice that is penetrable.

If a person has been assaulted by a penis/weapon because a male decided to use it as a weapon they are scarred,for life and are very hyper vilagent to avoid another assault because rape traumatizes people.A symptom of trauma is hyper vilagence and it is a physical and psychological reaction to being traumatized..

If a man does not use his penis today as a weapon to invade another's orifice then today he's NOT a rapist..

Mind reading does not exist in real life. So any potential person possessing an orifice that can be penetrated by a penis/weapon is a potential rape victim.

Rape is always a CHOICE,a choice to use a penis as a weapon to destroy another person and soothe the ego through a power trip,because rape traumatizes and destroys a person..

So if you have a penis you are male,so all men by default biologically carry a weapon.


Rape is a CHOICE made in the mind of a penis owner to use that penis as a weapon and truth is no one can read minds.

Being unable to read another persons mind means we can never know exactly what they are thinking,or deciding.

So All men who have minds that cannot be read as accurately clearly and perfectly as their own mind by another person's mind, and a penis that can get hard enough to penetrate another's' orifices,could potentially be a rapist should he choose to be a rapist.

Rape because of biology is a choice that only Males can make.

And no one can read his mind to know if he is choosing to rape or not with 100% certainty.

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
261. Youre wrong.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:36 AM
Apr 2013

Women can rape too. You dont need a penis to rape, an object can be used, or another body part.
"Anyone can be a rapist " would be the correct statement.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
273. explain..
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:00 AM
Apr 2013


If a man is not able to get hard, his penis is flaccid,a flaccid penis is floppy. Tell me how a woman can insert a limp squashy penis into her vagina without it falling out again? and since it requires stimulus to make it hard, how can she keep a flaccid penis in her vagina long enough to stimulate it?

If the man truly does not want sex and had decided he does not want sex he will remain flaccid. and will reject advances.

So if at some point he gets 'turned on' or decides to 'tolerate it' he gets hard because he is being stimulated by the woman and because he has accepted her aggressive advances.Denying that choice however fleeting was made to 'get off' and regretting it is not the same thing as being raped.


A penis cannot get hard without desire somewhere to get it off,or without repeated stimulus.. desire to get off isn't there the penis can't get hard enough or maintain the hardness to stay in a vagina very long enough to ejaculate..

Regret,ego hurt,shame isn't the same as being victimized by a penetrating weapon,sorry.

a flaccid penis cannot penetrate so isn't able to be a weapon,nor is an orifice a weapon .

Vagina dentata don't exist. Wish they did,but no,they don't.



 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
274. In some cases, rape is not about sexual gratification, but rather about power control.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:06 AM
Apr 2013

Or sadism. Very little to do with how hard or flacid a penis may be. Objects or other body parts are then used to commit the act.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
268. Your narrative is absurd
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:42 AM
Apr 2013

There are men who for unfortunate reasons are either completely paralysed or have no arms and legs. As such you cannot use the expression ALL whilst accounting for those incapable of such an act.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
275. a rare few maybe but even than,they stay flaccid
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:06 AM
Apr 2013

like a regular guy if he absolutely dosen't want sex.
a man that does not want sex will stay flaccid.
If a man is it paralyzed fro0m the waist down it often means there is no sensation below the point of spinal damage.
If his penis can feel and he does not want sex he still remains flaccid.

Behind the Aegis

(53,823 posts)
277. Your argument is as ignorant as the judge that made the comment about "juices flowing."
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:09 AM
Apr 2013

A penis can be stimulated by a number of things, including touch. It can also be made erect by constriction.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
278. ok
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:33 AM
Apr 2013

but,how can a penis be constricted without something being put around the penis? and the penis exposed?
how would a man not notice a cock ring or rubber band moving onto his penis? and why wouldn't he notice it?

If I felt a touch any where in that area and I wasnt unconsious i'd notice it even with it covered in layers of clothing.

Why would he not notice he was being messed with?
If someone was touching him long enough to get him hard, why did he let the touch continue if he didn't consent to it,and if he felt the touch and didn't want it touched why didn't he take his penis and put it away? if he was passed out,how could he get hard,is that possible? I ask because I don't know.

I'm not talking about innocent girls and boys being raped by pedophile monsters,here.

I'm talking rape between non-consenting adults.
As for sadism, sadism is a fetish,a fetish has a sexual component to it.A sadist gets off on dominating and abusing people. So,if a sadist rapes with an object he still gets a reward,for doing it.
because if he did not desire to do such a thing why take such a risk if there was no reward in his mind for taking that risk.

apparently for some the risk of being a sexual offender is worth the reward.

How can we make the risk of doing rape not worth that reward to the rapist?

Ever hear of ahedonia? Ahedonia is when you feel no reward sensation,from your brain,or anything else. It is like being dead.If the desire does not exist to have sex the motive isn't there ,no motive no reason to do it.The reason to do it is it gives a reward. If there if no reward,there is no desire,no desire it is worthless actions.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/special_reports/depression/anhedonia.htm

I struggle with ahedonia because of trauma,and I have gone years without wanting anything including sex because the sensation of reward in by brain was dead, and the sensation of pleasure was dead,so desire just didn't occur anymore. I had no desires because I felt like I was dead,the soul within was dead and life was a big blank..and so the motivation itself stopped.
Desire for reward be it biochemical,ego,money whatever is what motivates actions.

No reward, no desire,it is a dead end. That is why ahedonia is a dangerous thing to have,because you begin to ask why be alive if you feel nothing and all is dead inside why be here.If things that gave you pleasure cannot do that anymore it is terrible,Like existance itself is dead end.

So I question in this debate what or where desire and pleasure motives are because if ambivalence is too strong, you might not get hard or you might get hard, but you don't know what you want,you go along,because desire is absent to act against the situation . If you regret it later,or didn't care than it is a result of not making desire known or caring..,.Remember no one can read anothers mind..so how much is about ambivalence and later regret.And was it rape? How did you not feel nothing touching your penis ,how did you not notice it being taken out of your pants,underwear etc.and how could a man let it be taken into anothers hand, touched until hard enough to have a rubber band or cock ring placed on it and kept hard until it was too late to stop her from climbing on top or inserting it? I ask because I don't understand how.

Now if the guy is wheelchair bound or has no way to communicate and a woman or man doing that to a guy that has no control or consent,he is a rape victim and the woman ,IS by definition a rapist.

Very few women are rapists.But A few do exist apparently in certain circumstances that may make ot possible,and I hate the female rapist too.Because I hate rapists.

There are many more male rapists. Enough among humanity to make 1 in 4 girls be raped before age 18. and a lot of boys get raped ,and men too. Most rape is done by adult men. So where do the majority of rapes come from,...they are done mostly by men.That is a fact.

And regardless every man because he has a penis is still a potential rapist.


You can't be so oblivious when someone touches you down there,ever watch a nut shot on TV and cringe..

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
282. Your post is nauseating on so many levels.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 10:24 AM
Apr 2013

If a man said that it can't be rape because the woman got wet, how would you feel about that?

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
279. This is the most ridiculous load of crap I have read
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 07:40 AM
Apr 2013

in a long time.

Sexist, broad brush attack.

So your dad, brothers, uncles are all potential rapists? Really?

I would say more, but you really aren't worth getting a post hidden over.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
289. "Rape is a CHOICE made in the mind of a penis owner to use that penis as a weapon"
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 11:10 AM
Apr 2013

That is one of the most sexist loads of bullshit I've ever heard in my life. Do you really think that only a penis is capable of rape? What a sick and disgusting comment.

refrescanos

(112 posts)
339. then
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 03:10 AM
Jul 2013

According to that way of thinking, all women are potential child molesters because they can force a little boy to perform oral sex on her.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
295. Flamebait- the Duer you are trying to slime never said that.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:28 PM
Apr 2013

I can't believe this piece of shit OP wasn't locked.
Maybe more people will actually notice who actually loves to stir the shit by making shit up.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
298. God,DU is becoming a nasty place.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:59 PM
Apr 2013

What's with all the anti feminism crap being posted? All the "all men are potential rapists" means is that women must be wary of men they don't personally know because there is no way of telling the good guys from the bad guys,is that really hard to grasp?

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
299. This is a true statement, like it or not
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:05 PM
Apr 2013

It's no different than any other statement where there is even a miniscule percentage that the statement could turn out to be true for any individual all things being equal - it could potentially be true, even if it's not very likely. A lot of people believe "all cars are potential lemons" because they will get a Carfax report, have a mechanic look the vehicle over, etc., before committing on a purchase.

That being said, your last paragraph also contains true statements, as absurd as they seem. The risks associated with your statements have a likelihood so small that you personally would probably not feel the need to mitigate them. The percentages of women who identify themselves as having been raped at some point in their life and even the percentages of men who will admit in an anonymous survey that they have coerced someone into intercourse at some point in their life is not insignificant. Therefore women may choose to mitigate the risk that any man is a potential rapist rather than ignore it and hope for the best.

Men shouldn't take offense at women feeling they need to mitigate the risk of a man being a rapist any more than a car dealer should take offense at a potential buyer mitigating the risk that a car is a lemon by requesting a Carfax or having a mechanic look over the vehicle.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
301. Do you give out your social security number to strangers?
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 03:23 PM
Apr 2013

Of course not, because all people are potential identity thieves.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
309. Best answer in the thread. ^^^^
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:16 PM
Apr 2013

Everyone understands this. You'd have to be really, really stupid not to.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
307. No One
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:01 PM
Apr 2013

No One should take offense of being stigmatized as a group, even when facts refute individual behavior? Is that what DU is all about, profiling? If this type of attitude and actions were used on Young Black men as a security device, to make the public safe, (maybe we could call it stop and frisk) would the replies be the same. Have I also not read here in these pages that some of the worst Racism is not the overt spoken but the implied generalization of a certain groups, but men should not be upset that it was not overtly spoken that we are all rapist, but sure seems implied. As a man, a father, a husband, and a victim of sexual abuse I find it beyond repugnant that in any way shape or form that I would or should be lumped into such a group by a clear and Sexist profiling. I do not care what the stats say, I am not a number. I am just a man trying to make a good life for my family and make a change for others where I can, and your fist thought of me is that I am a potential rapist. Sad, very sad.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
310. The OP is a strawman. No one here said what he's claiming they said.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 06:02 PM
Apr 2013

And as I said higher up - though I could have been less harsh about it - hyperbole doesn't bother me anyway, because I know that I'm not a threat to anyone.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
323. OP Strawman Yes
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 09:12 AM
Apr 2013

After reading a lot of the comments though, there does seem to be an implied sentiment on this topic. From both men and woman, I was particularly put off by comment 299. I did make mention that it may not have been overtly stated, but there is an implied gender bias in this type of thread. I did also break the first commandment of internet hyperbole, (step away from the key board).

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