Why a BA is Now a Ticket to A Job in a Coffee Shop

[steve2470]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/27/why-a-ba-is-now-a-ticket-to-a-job-in-a-coffee-shop.html



Too many college kids are living in Mom's basement, or working at Starbucks. Like most personal finance columnists, I get the letters from them: what do I do? How do I fix this? For many, the answer is grad school. But I get the letters from grad students too. A while back, I found myself talking to a professor whose school has a number of impressive-sounding graduate programs that were originally conceived as add-ons for a professional degree in law or medicine or business. They are now attracting a number of students who just go for the standalone degree. He didn't understand what the career path was for these kids, and he wasn't sure that they did either.

"It sounds good, so they can persuade their parents to pay for it," he said, a touch guiltily.

A new paper from Paul Beaudry, David Green, and Benjamin Sand argues that these worried kids--and their worried parents--are not just imagining things. The phenomenon is all too real. Skilled workers with higher degrees are increasingly ending up in lower-skilled jobs that don't really require a degree--and in the process, they're pushing unskilled workers out of the labor force altogether.

[longship]

1. D'ya want fries with that? Can I Super-Size that?

Shall I make that a Super Grandé?

These are elements of the scripts that the college graduate has to learn to become a success. Of course, all the fast food, and many other retailers promise management opportunity... Real Soon Now (tm). The reality is that nobody really gets there, no matter what their talent, education, or experience.

However, that's the reality of the job market of the 21st Century.

It's sad. On top of it all, even if you manage to get a well-paying job, it'll be on an at-will basis with likely no benefits and no pension. The only holdout on these matters is public school teacher, which is why people like Michelle Rhee exist to destroy that... at the cost of our children's education.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. STEMs don't have it nearly that bad

Not a guarantee, but they seem to do better than many

[Yavin4]

16. That's Largely A Myth

STEM grads are struggling as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. It hasn't been where I taught for the last 5 years

All the students I advised (CompSci/CompEngr) did not seem to have problems getting jobs in their fields.

[longship]

21. I am retired now, but I am a STEM.

BS in physics, with honors. Should have gone on, but didn't.

My last two tech jobs were at will, both at prominent tech firms. Both without benefits. Both went under.

I taught school for a while, high school mathematics. Then NCLB was put into place and administration started testing students to see if teachers were doing their jobs right. Of course, as a relative newbie, nearly all my classes were ninth grade algebra, and nearly all my students were passed on in previous grades with no regard to their competency.

The curriculum was good, and academic. But, like all the teachers of ninth grade algebra in that district, we got the blame for the poor scores from students who could not even multiply, let alone understand what algebra even meant. Regardless, we teachers were rated by the scores on the severely academic district-wide standard exams.

In my school alone, six ninth grade algebra teachers were asked to resign due to poor testing results. It pretty much wiped out all of them, including me. (The school was huge; 4,000+ students, 17 acre campus; hundreds of staff.) My class size the last semester was 44 students. There weren't enough desks in my classroom, and my requests for more desks went on deaf ears. With the help of another teacher -- a long time veteran, and a good friend -- I literally stole furniture from other classrooms to rectify the situation.

Needless to say, teaching at that school utterly sucked.

They replaced the six math teachers (including me) with Phillipine immigrant teachers. That didn't work out too well either.

I taught one more semester at that school at night school (without a contract, on a substitute's pay). The night school principal knew my teaching style and asked me to help him out. My success there was very good. State law prevented the district from retaining me for another semester. I would have done it, even at substitute pay.

That ended my public school teaching career; the same as many others under similar conditions. Although I was allowed to resign, it was a blot to which the new regimes pay attention. To be fired (non-reselected) as a teacher would permanently ruin ones career. I later taught advanced math students for their SAT exams, but that ended my working days.

I retired and took early retirement.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Wow, you're right, that sucked

I can understand what you went through to an extent-- I once tutored some college football players in basic math (not even algebra), and they could barely do grade school-level addition and subtraction

[limpyhobbler]

2. or: Why don't coffee shop jobs pay a living wage?

[taught_me_patience]

35. I do

I pay my full time baristas $15/hr. Of course, we have people walk out every day because they don't want to pay $3 for a cup of coffee.

[limpyhobbler]

39. Good for you.

I applaud it.

[alp227]

40. LOL, I wonder how many of those people drive Cadillacs and VW. n/t

[AndyGra111]

4. I get SO annoyed....

I get so annoyed at those who go through the motions of "getting a degree" and then complain that their "skills" are worth MORE THAN THAT !
What about working with your hands? If the mind isn't engaged, the thumbs twiddle. All a BA does (or should teach you) is how to access information/knowledge. I'll admit that I am not very good at Internet searches, but today you should be enabled.
Sure, I dropped out of college in 1972, but then I stumbled into auto repair. I found that I was good at it. Nobody sent me to a trade school. I read, I practiced, I screwed-up, I learned. All that being a Master Mechanic means is that you have made every possible mistake imaginable. When the mood struck, I taught myself machine work, building things, mostly tools to use for me. When the mood struck, I immersed myself in electronics. You begin to see a problem as solvable as an electronic end. I never stopped READING about everything that was non-fiction.
But, today's graduates are afraid to get their fingernails dirty. Their butt becomes glued to the chair-seat. No! Experience is becoming well-rounded. That is why it is called a LIBERAL EDUCATION. You will learn to understand how errors in judgement occur. That is called EXPERIENCE.
Auto repair is not the hot-ticket that it once was. Managers have gamed the system, making their employees little more than serfs. BUT! My point is that there are opportunities out there if you are not afraid to try. Think!

[Iris]

8. Exactly. I graduatd during the last recession

Most of my friends had BAs in liberal arts (now only 25% of students take that path). Most of us started in some shitty jobs. But then after a few years, we were finding interesting and lucrative opportunities that grew out of the shitty jobs. Then some of us went to graduate school and studied something related to the fields we found ourselves in, ranging from education to healthcare to business. And now a little over 20 years later, most of us have survived the latest recession and many are even thriving.

To quote a bad 80s movie, this is just their "time on the edge" (cue "Man in Motion&quot

[sendero]

5. Welcome to global..

.. the libertarian panacea that will lift all boats.

All boats in China and India to be precise, and drop all boats here. Thanks Bill!

[tammywammy]

6. The problem is employers require a BA for jobs that don't really need them.

I see it where I work. My dad retired from where I work and my mom's still here. My mom didn't get her bachelor's degree until she was 55, well after she had started working here. My dad never did and was a manufacturing engineer. I couldn't even get an entry level job doing what my mom does (project scheduling/planning) without a degree, even though they train you to do the job.

I'm currently working on my MBA. I do like school and I think learning more about the fundamentals is beneficial, but it'll also push me up the promotion chain faster.

Really the only jobs you can get where I work without a degree is admin assistant or mail clerk.

[DotGone]

32. Your work place is lenient with the requirements

Fucking data entry clerks, mail room clerks, admin assistants, bank tellers all require degrees here. Kids with no experience and fresh out of high school used to get these jobs. Now they require degrees and 3+ years experience. Retail and fast food are basically the only places left you can get a job w/o a degree.

[alp227]

41. Maybe they believe a BA builds character?

That's my first impression of why even clerical admin desk jobs require BA's. I think they want a well-rounded educated person working the front desk and don't have good impression of those without higher ed.

[SoCalDem]

50. It's a way to weed out applicants n/t

[Generic Brad]

7. This was the same situation I faced more than 25 years ago

Except I had a BA and a MA. The best jobs I was able to land for the first five years after graduation either paid minimum wage or were temp jobs. It sucked and it wasn't easy.

I went from being a starving student to a starving husband. My wife and I slept on a mattress on the floor. All our furniture was either given to us or rescued from garbage pick up. All our money went to student loans and the basics. We had to wait ten years to start our family.

It was hard to get a start then just like it is now. Good luck to all those struggling. I understand what you are going through.

[Iris]

9. I hear you.

See my post above.

I think some of the bewilderment comes because this generation is more compliant than generations past and feel doubly betrayed that they did all the things they were supposed to and things didn't work out right away. There also doesn't seem to be much emphasis on grit these days.

[HiPointDem]

10. yes, yes, you were gritty, kids today are just bums. watch out for your premature dotage.

the last recession was at the beginning of the clinton presidency, and it wasn't much of a recession compared to this one, which is the worst and longest since the great depression.

*your* recession ended in the tech boom.

get over the self-congratulation, it's bs.

[Iris]

11. Did I say kids today are bums?

No I did not.

And it's not self-congratulation, it's a cycle of life. It might be a little different now if college weren't being treated like vocational school instead of a place to learn to think. Just tacking the word "entrepreneur" or some variation onto a major doesn't create innovative thinking.

But despite it all, those kids who are slinging coffee and holding a BA or a BS (more poplar these days - who needs a foreign language, right?), are STILL going to be better off in 20 years than those who don't.

[winter is coming]

12. "things didn't work out right away" "doesn't seem to be much emphasis on grit these days"

Get out of your bubble. The "work hard at shitty jobs for a few years and something good will come your way" career path is dead. It's almost nothing but shitty jobs, and these kids are starting out with a hell of a lot more debt that most people had to bear even ten years ago.

[Iris]

13. How do you know that? n/t

on edit:
Specifically, how do you know this is going to be it from here on out? Someone mentioned the tech bubble. How do you know we are at a time in history when nothing new will happen or be created?

The debt is another discussion altogether and has more to do with state governments not funding their stat colleges and universities.

And none of the quotes you took out of my original post were intended to be snarky.

[winter is coming]

14. Have you been asleep the last five years?

I watch/read the news and talk to people. Maybe you're lucky enough to know people who managed to hold on to the jobs they've had for years, but I've met too people who lost theirs, and kids who are still struggling to find that first semi-decent job.

[Iris]

15. No, I haven't been asleep. And I'm surrounded by young people.

And not all of them are struggling to find jobs. We are probably never going to have an economy like we had in the 90s but that doesn't mean nothing is happening in the economy right now. And I've known people who've lost jobs they had for years and almost all of them have managed to move on.

But keep believing that college is a waste of time. State governments want citizens to think college is useless so they can quit funding them altogether.

[winter is coming]

17. Nowhere did I say that college is a waste of time, but thanks for playing. n/t

[Iris]

18. Whatever. n/t

[Phillip McCleod]

20. because tuitions have spiked

by some 500% relative to the rate of COL. in other words. numbers. that's how.

[LooseWilly]

22. You kind of did say kids today are... not tough

I graduated from college during the HW end-of-term recession. I did some volunteer work in Mexico and became fluent in Spanish... and then came back to the states to wash dishes (a job I got because of a family connection with the owner of the pub) and then eventually... I was changing people's kitty litter while they were out of town, delivering their dry cleaning, and changing the water for their fish- and that was the job that gave me health insurance.

During the dot-com boom everyone one of us made money. The lucky ones knew someone who managed to slide into a company job with some pull while the competition they would usually have had for those jobs were out "panning for gold" trying to hit it rich with the next great IPO.

Those with that kind of luck (knowing someone who slid into a company job) could "fine tune" their skills and get hooked up with a job.

I spent a decade working 2 hours a day, 7 days a week as a chauffeur, or working 8 hours a week as a freelance reporter, or... working as a retail wine department head (who says drinking isn't a marketable skill?)

You can talk about "grit" all you like... but from what I've seen it's all about knowing someone who's in the right place at the right time. Or not.

If you don't know someone who's got the power to bestow a job upon you... barista or wine-department-guy or graveyard-shift stock dude is about all you're gonna be looking at.

On the other hand, I've seen some half-competents hired/promoted right past me in various of my crappy jobs just because they were known to those of influence.

Grit is what you use to survive the coffee shop job... luck and connections are what lifts you up.

[mythology]

19. Statistically speaking this is nonsense

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/04/02/17570950-it-still-pays-to-go-to-college-new-data-suggests?lite

Having a college degree means you are more likely to have a job, have a higher income, and a whole host of socio-economic benefits.

[winter is coming]

24. The article you linked to doesn't contradict the OP, which is talking about "degree creep" in the

current economy. In fact the OP's article points out that people with college degrees are displacing high school grads who would otherwise likely hold those positions.

Yes, the median income for college grads is higher than for high school grads. That's for everyone who was working -- not just relatively recent grads trying to find work, but for people who have been out of school for 20-30 years, and for corporate executives.

It would probably be more enlightening if there were a study comparing the cost of a college education, the cost of living, and the median starting salary over the decades. When I graduated from college, the "safety job" for BAs was something like consulting for Arthur Andersen. Today, the "safety job" is fast food or retail, if that.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

44. It's a trend story

Low lying fruit for the media. This same story (and accompanying doomsday scenarios) and variations of it have been in the news for roughly 20-30 years, if not longer.

[Zorra]

25. I never thought of college as a means to make money. It was the learning

and experience that meant something. I figured with a well rounded education it would open up a whole world of different things for me to do.

As it turned out, it did. I have a BA History with a minor in Psych, and my education has served me well in everything I have done since I graduated many moons ago. I've had a blast, and still am having a blast. Two days after we graduated from college, my college girlfriend and I stuck out our thumbs and hitchiked around the country and then later traveling in a VW bus for a few years, working wherever we could find work ~ tomato fields, packing sheds, orchards, gas stations and a bunch of other things.

That was grad school.

I think the 60's and early 70's were a really great time to live in. Limits, limitations, and rules were not much of a consideration for many of us back then, there was a new and improved adventure around every corner, and we were fearless to the point of stupidity. I'd say maybe times have changed, but both my kids did it too, and both of them are still alive and well, happy and healthy, one of them even came down out of the blue to my house in Mexico about 10 years ago, when he was 21, in a purple '59 schoolbus named Pursurvurance, which was full of 14 rainbow kids, a surf bum, an old school Deadhead, and my son's 140 lb Mastiff-Rottie cross that looked like a small reddish gold bear. He said "Wanna go to Palenque?" I said, "Stupid question, let me get some clothes and some gear", and off we went on a great adventure, tripping around Mexico, camping in jungles and on beaches, and picking up every hitchhiker we saw along the way. We had 26 people in the bus at one time at our peak. I found paradise, and stayed there for a few months, and the kids moved on, with about 10 bucks left when they crossed back into the US somewhere in Texas, and somehow eventually made it back to the Bay area.

I dunno; works for me...

Truckin', by The Grateful Dead, (snipped version

Most of the cast that you meet on the streets speak of true love,
Most of the time they're sittin and cryin at home.
One of these days they know they better get goin
Out of the door and down on the streets all alone.

Truckin, like the do-dah man. once told me you've got to play your hand
Sometimes your cards ain't worth a dime, if you don't lay 'em down,

Truckin, up to buffalo. been thinkin, you got to mellow slow
Takes time, you pick a place to go, and just keep truckin on.

You're sick of hangin' around and you'd like to travel;
Get tired of travelin' and you want to settle down.
I guess they can't revoke your soul for tryin',
Get out of the door and light out and look all around.

Sometimes the lights all shinin' on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.

Truckin, Im a goin home. whoa whoa baby, back where I belong,
Back home, sit down and patch my bones, and get back truckin on.
Hey now get back truckin on.

[Apophis]

26. This saddens me because I'll be getting my MS in archaeology

in the next few months. I'm not putting in all this hard work to make cappuccinos for stuck-up hipsters.

[Llewlladdwr]

33. Serious questions here.

What exactly is the job market like for archeologists these days, and did you take that into account when selecting your degree program?

[Apophis]

37. Companies cannot build anything on land without first

conducting archaeological survey to see if any natural and cultural resources will be negatively impacted.

It's the law.

[MineralMan]

43. Lots of people doing that work, though.

But, you can hang out your shingle and compete for contracts. Just know that developers will hate you if you actually find something that impedes their plans.

[Apophis]

48. I'm not in it for the developers.

I'm in it for what can be learned about the human past. If a developer gets pissed if I find something, that's their problem.

[FarCenter]

52. Piss off one developer, and that developer will spread the word -- and you won't get work.

You will just wind up idealistic and unemployed.

[Apophis]

56. Do you have any idea how much info is lost because of developers?

They get pissy and whiny because we take too long.

Tough shit.

[MineralMan]

53. Yah. Good luck wth that.

Thay are your clients. Life sucks.

[MineralMan]

42. Archaeology? The job market for that degree has never been

very good. It's a very interesting field, but hardly a field where jobs are plentiful. Academia, museums, and a few other places are the only real options, and a PhD is a minimum for most of those jobs.

Good luck in your job search. If you're very persistent, you may be able to work in the field.

On the other hand, you could start a consulting company and begin to seek contract jobs for developers. There are still archaeological discovery requirements in some places. Pretty stiff competition, though, for the contracts.

[Apophis]

49. I'm in it because I love it.

And the jobs are around. I just have to find them.

Academia will be in my future.

[MineralMan]

54. Good choice. You will need a PhD. nt

[Kalidurga]

27. I worked as a cashier at a well known pharmacy...

I was a couple semesters shy of an Associates Degree. Nearly everyone that worked there had a degree most of them were four year degrees. I also worked at another retail place on the shipping dock, almost everyone I worked there with also had a degree. I knew very few people in either place that only had a high school diploma and even I had a couple years college behind me at that point even if I didn't have a degree yet. So, it's real and it does hurt people that only have a high school diploma or a GED. And I don't think I would have gotten either job without my college experience, even though in theory it's not a requirement.

[Common Sense Party]

28. "Now"? Not just now. It's been that way for years.

My first jobs post-B.A. in the mid-90s were temporary clerk/filing specialist, pizza delivery guy, and receptionist at Opryland employment office.

The piece of paper is just that: a piece of paper. But many jobs won't even let you interview without the piece of paper. Even the crap jobs.

What is different now is that there are so few jobs--even crap ones--and there are scores of applicants for every position.

[winter is coming]

29. True. I've seen ads for $10/hr clerical positions that want 5 years of experience.

You know, the job I did with no experience 30 years ago for $6/hr.

[CK_John]

31. This is why I keep saying Princeton and Harvard will be just a memory in 5 yrs. We have job

problem not an education problem. The cyber-era can only generate a 30 million $ job for a teen who designs a new app.

[taught_me_patience]

34. I don't hire baristas with degrees

And I pay $15/hr. They better ball hard though.

[madville]

36. I have an Associates Degree and technical schools

Make $60k a year and have worked several jobs in the last decade that could care less about a bachelors degree or higher. They want technical skills and experience (electronics and RF radio communications)

[liberal_at_heart]

38. my husband worked his way up though a telecom company.

Started as a customer service rep, then a trouble shooter, then he began using the monitoring system, then he moved on to engineering the network. but there did come a time when he could go no further because he did not have a degree. If he had had a degree he could have kept moving up and become a supervisor and a director.

[FarCenter]

45. There are more people working in high skill jobs than ever before

But a BA doesn't provide the skills needed to do those jobs.

A BS in a STEM field is a start, but lots of jobs require specialized skills that you learn on the job, learn through training coursed provided by vendors or training companies, learn through certification programs, or learn through self-study.

At any rate, college is just a start on life-long learning. There is no such thing as "finishing" your education and training.

[Marrah_G]

46. My son took a year off college to work in the field he is studying

He managed to get a good job as a civilian contractor on a two year contract. He will do full time online courses while working and then go back to school to finish up the last of his classes he needs attend to get his degree.

For us it is a win/win situation because he will graduate with his degree and 2 years work experience. We are fortunate that his AF training and clearance made this possible. Other kids in his class don't have the same options and many will struggle to find jobs.

[MineralMan]

47. Getting a job requires skills, not letters after your name.

If you have skills and you're willing to work hard at getting a job, you'll find one. If you have no skills, you'll have to take crap jobs until you do have some skills. Nothing has changed, except that companies are no longer interested in training people.

Develop skills. Get your degree, but learn something useful at the same time. Learn about an industry. A B.A. is only proof that you have some capacity to learn stuff. It does not imply that you actually have any useful skills.

Thus has it always been. Today, though, without skills, nobody is interested in bothering with you.

There are people graduating with B.A. degrees in all sorts of majors who are landing decent jobs that pay OK. Go talk to some of them. You'll find out that they have developed skills on their own and are bringing them to the table. I have a niece who is now an assistant director of a non-profit that works with people with brain injuries. She has a B.A. She also has a sister with a brain injury, who she has helped care for as a personal assistant. The skills she gained from that landed her the job. It pays OK for a 23 year old on her first real job. Beats the hell out of working at Starbucks. She's continuing her education at the same time. She's smart, tough, and eager to develop even more skills. She'll do well.

[upaloopa]

51. They want more degrees for jobs that don't require them

We have a position open that requires an MBA or CPA certificate. The job duties do not require that level of skill or education. But no one who is not already a manager here can apply because of that requirement.
What they will do is hire a recent grad with no real job experience and no management or human relations experience and make them a yes man/woman manager over experienced people.

[Godhumor]

55. There are degrees for personal fulfillment and there are degrees to make money

And even a few that provide both.

I am lucky to have one of each. I have a bachelors in fine arts and an MBA. The art degree provides for the soul the MBA provides for the family. I have no complaints with either.