Eleven children escaped Newtown classroom while Adam Lanza was reloading

[Bjorn Against]

"We learned, the way that no other parents should learn, that the most dangerous, dangerous part of an assault weapon is the magazine," Nicole Hockley, whose son Dylan, 6, was killed Dec. 14, said at a press conference with other parents at the Capitol Monday morning.

"The horrible, brutal truth is that 154 bullets were fired in four minutes, killing our children, our daughters, our wives. The shooter carried 10, 30-round large-capacity magazines," Hockley said. "We have learned that in the time it took him to reload in one of the classrooms, 11 children were able to escape. We ask ourselves every day — every minute — if those magazines had held 10 rounds, forcing the shooter to reload at least six more times, would our children be alive today?"

http://www.courant.com/news/politics/hc-gun-deal-newtown-0413-20130401,0,7341094.story

[MichiganVote]

1. Every second counts.

[tblue]

78. And every life counts too.

You are so right. Every second counts. And every life matters. Sounds trite but the dead aren't just numbers and statistics in a news article, especially when it's your loved one. A few seconds, as you say, can mean life or death. The size of a magazine does matter. Anything to make a person stop shooting people is worth doing. Even if it ever saves only one life.

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. OMG that woman is soooooo ignorant!

Doesn't she know there's no such thing as an "assault weapon!"



Gun nuts will be here soon to inform us all of their unrelenting bullshit.

[upaloopa]

5. What lets them know an OP about guns has appeared.

They have some software or something that tells them some anti gun words were posted and then gives them a list of talking points and if you reply a question or to to respond to you with?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. "What lets them know an OP about guns has appeared."

Their trigger fingers start to itch.

The only way to relieve the itch is to put their fingers to their keyboards.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

71. I like to think of them as the Morlocks.

And there's a siren that summons them out of the ground whenever necessary.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

12. And it's not a "magazine".

It's a "clip". That mom is so uninformed.

[awoke_in_2003]

16. Actually, it is magazine...

a clip is a piece of formed steel securing the back of shell, ala the M1.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

18. Good for you. That makes all the difference.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. I am for reduced magazine sizes...

universal background checks, and mental health screenings to purchase (and keep- I am for annual screenings) guns. I own no guns, and am not a gun nut. You made a correction that was incorrect, so I explained the difference so you would know. If you think I am a nutter, then you do not know me.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

21. My mistake.

Sorry.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. No problem...

it is a hot issue, and these stories pull a lot of people out of the gungeon.

[tclambert]

69. It's not a "clip" or a "magazine," it's an ammunition reservoir.

No, it's a collective ammunitional shell container.

It's a thingy what holds bullets.

And Pluto is a goddamn planet!

[jmowreader]

68. Magazines have a mechanism to push the rounds up

The AR-15 uses magazines.

[ZOB]

3. They haven't "learned", they "believe". NOT confirmed by authorities.

http://www.ctmirror.org/story/19592/newtown-families-want-strict-ban-large-ammo-magazines

"Authorities have not publicly confirmed that Lanza was reloading when 11 students were able to flee the first-grade classroom of teacher Victoria Soto, who was killed. But Barden said the parents have no doubt that was the case."

[Bjorn Against]

6. These are the victim's families, they personally know the eyewitnesses

I trust that the kids did not make this story up, their parents know far more about what happened than we do.

[Glimmer of Hope]

7. What they witnessed must have been so horrific that I hope this isn't true. Those poor babies.

[ZOB]

8. A bunch of 6-year olds fleeing for their lives said he was reloading?

The unlikelihood of that aside, if that was the children's story I'm sure the statement from the husband of the school psychologist would have been a little more definitive than "we have no doubt"?

In addition, I'm sure that authorities would have commented if they felt they had credible evidence of it.

[Hoyt]

10. Seems obvious to me, but for the sake of gun lovers let's study it for decades.

There will be another hundred million guns and lethal accessories to deal with when we finally bite the bullet and adopt similar laws to those Australia enacted in 1996.

[Bjorn Against]

11. You do realize that the police don't speak publicly about all the info they have don't you?

There are all kinds of things the police know that they won't say in public, it is common knowledge that police are often tight-lipped about investigations.

I don't know how much more definitive you expect the family members to be, they seemed quite clear in what they were saying. Saying "we have no doubt" does not leave much room for doubt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. What cops (and at times Fire) are ever tight lipped!

Really?

for those who need it.

And yes, yes they are...extremely tight lipped, especially in an ongoing investigation, which this one still is

[Raine1967]

29. This is repugnant.

That you would actually have the gall to allude that these kids lied is just sickening.

UGH.

[SunSeeker]

43. Yes. And he was just tombstoned, soon to return under a new name...

[Raine1967]

44. Good riddance.

I know MIRT will be on the case.

I need a shower after reading his posts. Blech.

[Scootaloo]

66. Those little shits are out to take his guns, don'cha know?

Why, he'll be "defenseless" the next time "thugs" and "the criminals" want to "invade his home!" if these miserable little librul gun-grabber larvae get their way!

[jmg257]

46. Well, I'm sure you are much more concerned with defending against ANY justification

For restricting hi-cap mags and ARs then you are with the capability of a dozen 6 yr old kids to escape a gun freak blasting everyone in sight...with an AR and hi-cap mags. And recall how they managed to SURVIVE.

Your concern is noted.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

13. God almighty.

You right wing gun freaks have no conscience. A thousand children could have been murdered at that school and the only thought in your minds would have been protecting your precious guns.

[ZOB]

14. I just believe that magazine capacity is a distraction.

It won't make one bit of difference.

Addressing mass shootings as a mental health issue will be much more productive than as a gun issue. The gun is the tool, the mental illness/disability is the cause. Addressing anything but the cause won't save one child.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. What if someone is mentally disturbed about guns?

[ZOB]

22. Then they shouldn't own one.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. This could get ugly.

[etherealtruth]

36. Just verifying ... you don't own any guns ....right?

[jmg257]

52. Worked out well for Adam, and his gun freak mom, didn't it?

Along with the 26 other people he massacred?

She will never know how big she fucked up.

But by all means, let's ignore the guns!! They are irrelevant!

[undeterred]

79. She paid the ultimate price.

[Bjorn Against]

19. Eleven children are alive today who may not have been if Lanza had not had to reload

You can try to imply the victims are making this up all you want, but I sure as hell hope you don't go and tell the parents of those eleven children that magazine size is a distraction or that their kids might not be telling the truth about what happened.

The gun is the tool that enabled Lanza to kill 26 people. You can pretend that mental illness is the issue all you want, but the fact is the vast majority of mentally ill people are not violent and there are many people who don't have mental illness but do have violent tendencies. Mental health is only one factor in violent crime and it is not even close to the biggest factor. Yes, we need better treatment for the mentally ill, but don't try to pretend that you can use the mentally ill to distract us from the gun problem.

[ZOB]

25. Anybody who kills a large number of people has a "mental illness"

To ward off the picky people, we'll exempt soldiers in battle from this definition.

If Lanza didn't have a mental illness, or defect, or disability, or whatever you'd like to call it, he wouldn't have shot anybody...regardless of how many guns he had at his disposal, what type of guns they were, or the size of the magazines.

I'm in no way stating that all mentally people are violent, but all mass killers are mentally ill. Mental illness is the CAUSE and until we deal with the cause, no meaningful change is going to be made.

[Electric Monk]

27. Can we quantify 'mental illness'?

[Bjorn Against]

31. That is a false statement, there have been many killers who were not mentally ill

Timothy McVeigh was not mentally ill, Al Capone was not mentally ill, there are murderers arrested every single day who are not mentally ill. The vast majority of mentally ill people are not violent, and the vast majority of violent people are not mentally ill. Quit trying to use a discriminated against minority group to distract from gun violence.

Adam Lanza was mentally ill, but if he had not had guns he probably would not have harmed anyone.

[upaloopa]

33. Man I am tired of that meme. You are never going to put a

dent in mental illness. I work with mental illness in a fiscal context. We we can have a effect on is the access to guns.

Guns don't kill people people with guns kill people so let's don't do anything about guns let's get rid of people makes about as much sense.

[etherealtruth]

38. Absolutely perfect

"Guns don't kill people people with guns kill people so let's don't do anything about guns let's get rid of people makes about as much sense."

[uponit7771]

41. This is false, they could be plain old jerks like McVeigh etc...most mass killers are REALLY stupid

...people not someone who has psychotic episodes

regards

[jmg257]

53. Was his Mom mentally ill? He used her guns. So because she had

Unfettered access, so did he.

Nice targeting 'mental illness' (wayne would be proud), but here guns were the issue.

[jmg257]

56. Psstt..if he didn't have access to guns, he wouldn't have shot anyone either.

NO guns equals NO shooting...see how that works?

Very simple math, actually.

Deal with the cause, and the means. No reason not to.

[lark]

80. If he hadn't been previously diagnosed

as mentally ill, how would that check have stopped him from getting the guns? The one thing that would have saved lives would have been a regular 10 shot magazine, but for some reason, you totally discount that? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

[NickB79]

26. I've wondered about that

Adam Lanza was a very smart person, and clearly had a long history of shooting guns. He shot 26 people with 154 rounds, sometimes hitting each child 6-10 times.

What I wonder is, if he were restricted to smaller magazines, would he have simply fired only 1-2 rounds into each child instead? Theoretically, he could have killed all those people with only 3, 10-rd magazines. It would depend on his mental state though, if he were acting out of rage and/or insanity.

[FLyellowdog]

24. Ironic...while the shooter was momentarily distracted by reloading, eleven children were saved.

I'd say that made a difference ...a huge difference...to those children.

And doesn't assuming that mental illness is the sole cause of these massacres takes the responsibility out of the hands of the shooters? If they are always mentally ill, how can they be held accountable? Sometimes people do bad things simply because they are bad people.

The solution to these situations is to focus on all facets of the problem and that includes the easy access to guns and ammunition, in general, and the availability of automatic magazines, in particular. And yes, just as important is the inability to determine the state of one's mental health and the means to act accordingly when instability is apparent.

There is not a "one size fits all" answer.

[Bjorn Against]

32. So you dismiss this as "only eleven kids"?

Do you even realize how disgusting what you just said really is? I hope you never have to meet the parents of those eleven children.

[BainsBane]

34. That was a horrible comment

I was on the jury and am glad the comment was hidden. Only a 4-2 vote though.

[SunSeeker]

48. When a gungeoneer is offensive, DUers put him on ignore--which disqualifies them from his jury.

If you put someone on ignore, you become ineligible to sit on their jury. That is the only way I can explain how most of the more prolific gungeoneers haven't gotten their pizzas.

[BainsBane]

49. fortunately this one did

but he isn't a long time poster.

[Electric Monk]

51. Good point about un-intended consequences of the ignore feature :) nt

[jmg257]

50. Incredile, isn't it? Sometimes I don't get the attitude here. Nt

[upaloopa]

28. You are wrong. There will always be mentally ill people. We have to limit access to

guns. The canard that we over look guns and concentrate on mental health is pure obfuscation.

You will never get anywhere with that meme. It belongs on the scrap heap of all the other gunner talking points since the shooting on CT.

[CTyankee]

65. I am so glad we are at last addressing this talking point head on. You are right.

Blather about mental illness is "pure obfuscation." We should go after this meme hard and fast and not let up. Let's make them look so bad they HAVE to give it up as a talking point...

[SunSeeker]

39. Enough with the lies. Magazine capacity was pivotal in Newtown & Aurora & Tucson.

All of those shooters were able to complete their horrific slaughter within minutes, before police even arrived. We know how to get rid of large magazines; we don't know how to cure schizophrenia. The cause is the availability of military arms & accessories. There is no legitimate civilian need for a 30-round magazine. Find something else to play with.

[peacebird]

40. If it takes a couple seconds to reload, & you only have a 10 round clip.... Rinse & repeat. LIFE!

If that is the calculation, then there is a chance that more innocents will survive.

No hunter can say (with a straight face) that they need a mega clip for deer hunting, or duck hunting, etc.

The only reason for mega clips is fun at practice range ( keep them there, like Australia) or to slaughter people.

[jmg257]

47. Yes guns are tools. Deadly weapons that are the tools of the trade

For mass murderers and violent criminals. Turns out hi-cap mags are often prime accessories for those tools.

So explain what is wrong with substantially reducing the numbers of such 'tools', and otherwise limiting access to them?

(BTW, we can do both ya know...deal with the means and the causes)

[daybranch]

57. lack of experience equals ignorance

You are totally illogical. The more deadly the weapon, the more killing it causes.While the decision to use the weapon is rightly a mental health or criminal issue, the killing capacity of the weapon determines to a greater extent how successful the killer is or in another way to say it, how many children, women, or men he or she can kill before being stopped.
In Vietnam I walked point with a M-16 capable of firing both full and semi-automatic. I equipped that weapon with 2 thirty round magazines taped together for fast reloading. In this way I would be able to fire 50 or more rounds at the enemy with the hopes of overwhelming them with firepower (number of bullets in this case). Even this capability seems minor in what can now be had with bump feed stocks and drum magazines. Large capacity magazines add the ability to increase the speed of killing and defeat much of the ability of law enforcement to stop it. These magazines and such features as bump feed increase the excitement of firing the weapon and increase the invulnerability of the firer in their own minds. The mentally ill also search for excitement and the large capacity and fast fire fits right into any massacre tough guy illusions they want to display. Large capacity magazines and bump fire are not only unnecessary ion civilian life, they are the tools of massacre which the last time I looked was not socially acceptable. You know little of what you speak. Quit being a mouth organ for the NRA and other organizations who will do anything to make money including aiding the killing of masses of children.

[cvoogt]

59. Not an either/or choice.

We shouldn't try to ameliorate things on multiple fronts, or anything.

Sure, the gun is a tool, with the minor distinction of having been designed to kill. A car is a 'tool' too, but it's not designed to kill. A hammer is a tool. It can be used to hammer in nails, or can be used as a weapon. Just try hammering in a nail with a Colt 45. Make sure the safety's off. There is this notion that technology is neither good nor evil; people are. So let's just for argument's sake say guns are neither good nor evil; people who decide to use them for ill are 'evil'. Well, by the same token I think gun manufacturers are evil. I mean, after all, corporations are people, and they are specifically marketing machines designed to kill, and kill en-masse. Nobody needs an AR-15 or similar tool for hunting or for self-defense.

We should be doing "all of the above"; mental health screening / improved services, background checks, reduced mag/clip sizes, taxing bullets, etc etc. I actually don't see any issue with outlawing "assault" style weapons except for military use; the 2nd amendment doesn't say you have a constitutional right to bear ANY arms, just arms. And, it needs to be a 'well-regulated militia." I wonder what % of gun owners actually belong to a militia. Of course the current Supreme Court ruled a few years back that somehow the 2nd Amendment gives a right to bear arms simply for self defense, not just for being in a militia (someone else probably knows more about this)... but I think it's a very warped view of things.

Even our best efforts at improving mental health won't catch all would-be mass-killers. But if we also reduce magazine capacity and require universal background checks, we're mitigating the risk of random senseless killings on multiple fronts.

I also think it's a mistake to consider mental health issues THE cause. The ease of access to weapons of mass destruction is in itself a cause; easy access to weapons can influence suggestible or vulnerable individuals to take 'action' they might not otherwise have contemplated, and these individuals could easily slip through the cracks in the mental health 'system' - even if it were improved three-fold.

[spanone]

55. horseshit.

[mythology]

4. Obviously they should have had their own guns

with even larger capacities.

Limiting the number of rounds in a clip really does seem like an absolute no brainer.

[Progressive dog]

9. Limit those damn magazines now

Thanks Bjorn

[Ilsa]

42. The gunman who shot Gabby Giffords

was reloading when he was taken down.

I think it is possible that a few of the eleen children understood that Lanza was reloading.

[FreeJoe]

45. And if just one of those kids...

had a fully automatic AK-47 with a 50 round clip of hollow points, they could have downed that sucker in less time than it takes to sneeze.

Sorry, I just felt compelled to add some gun nuttery to the discussion.

[spanone]

54. our representatives in congress really don't give a shit. not one bit.

shame on all of them.

[gulliver]

58. Banning those magazines protects law enforcement too.

I don't think we need people like these Texas white supremacists armed with assault weapons or large-capacity magazines.

[frylock]

60. oh but the gun fuckers simply cannot be inconvenienced by constant reloading..

freedom isn't free, and if it costs the lives of several kids so that the 2A enthusiasts aren't inconvenienced by constantly switching out 10 rd mags, well then so be it.

[smirkymonkey]

84. +1000

[defacto7]

61. There's also the raised probablility

that there could be mechanical failure by having to change magazines repeatedly.. or fumbling, someone jumping you. There are many reasons to limit the magazine, but there is even more probability for life if the weapon is not there.

[flvegan]

62. No, the most dangerous part of an assault weapon isn't the mag...it's the idiot brandishing.

And pulling the trigger.

It's not convenient, but it's the truth.

[tkmorris]

63. Sure it is

So why don't we do everything we can to limit that idiot's ability to kill large numbers of people?

[arely staircase]

64. i think gun helps

“They say that 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' Well I think the gun helps. If you just stood there and yelled BANG, I don't think you'd kill too many people.”
Eddie Izzard

[SunSeeker]

73. LOL. Thanks for posting. nt

[cvoogt]

72. Here we go again

with the black and white, either/or thinking.

The idiot brandishing on his own wouldn't have posed much of a threat. But together with a "tool" such the weapon of mass destruction he brandished, he's very dangerous. An assault weapon is inherently dangerous; that's what it's designed for. It's not some neutral tool that's neither good nor evil. It's evil; it was designed and marketed as a killing machine.

First off, Adam Lanza was likely not an idiot, just a person with major issues, which he decided he'd solve with his tool of choice.. a gun.. and some mags. Limit the access to guns (especially to people who should've been caught by mental health screening), limit mag/clip capacity, impose a 'sin tax' on bullet purchases over X number of bullets at a time, and do universal background checks. Why does there need to be just one answer? It's multi-faceted, so let's solve it with a multi-faceted approach.

[uponit7771]

74. Nah, limit the bullets for automatic rifles and make em rearm a lot...seems simple

[Bjorn Against]

75. Since when was a person a part of an assault rifle?

[flvegan]

85. When they picked it up.

[SunSeeker]

76. Other countries have idiots, yet don't have this problem.

We have allowed these idiots to be dangerous by allowing ARs and high capacity magazines to be sold to civilians, and refusing to enact the most rudimentary of reasonable gun controls, like universal background checks.

[HappyMe]

77. Well, that is kind of true.

But an idiot brandishing a cue stick probably wouldn't kill anybody.

[Berlum]

67. K and r

for the children of us all.

[Sunlei]

70. that some children had the tenacity to run away and not freeze is a miracle..

what will it take people? a more efficent shooter who makes every one of the 154 rounds kill 154 people?

This was overkill like he was in a video game where rounds are endless and people are in that mental zone of detachment from reality.

Not only the size of the reload, like a video game there should be some kind of cooldown time between reloads.

Perhaps ammo should be taxed with a federal tax at point of buy at $1.00 a round.?

Owning weapons is an American right, shooting 1,000 high powered rounds for practice should cost bigtime. Not by extra profits for the ammo corps, by a massive FEDERAL tax.

[Occulus]

82. Cool down time between reloads, like a video game? Rounds are endless?

Here's a piece of advice. If you're going to imply a connection between things, make sure you know enough about them to say your piece without sounding like you don't know what you're talking about.

You haven't played any video games anytime recently. If you had, you would know that reloads don't HAVE a cool down (abilities are a different story). Not in one single game. Not ever, as far as I know, and I've been an avid gamer since the Atari 2600 was brand new.

Please stop blaming things you know next to nothing about. Thanks.

[Sunlei]

83. yes some games do have cool down times for plenty of actions, or the 'costs' and levels limit

the number of gameplay actions. I've always played multiplayer games vs real people..I hate single player games they bore me.

yes I think this sick persons playing of mindless hours, months and perhaps years? of call of duty? (other shooter games?) added to his disasociation from the reality of what he was doing. So you play a lot of games and thats a good cheap type of entertainment. Better than spending your life in bars. I've bet you've met more than a few people who play to excess, ruin their college time, their marriages and neglect their children all for gameplay. Even the Norway shooter was said to play wow and he sure did clear that island mindlessly focused as if those kids were just Orc pawns.

No one (except military guns that remain under military control), not one person in the real world needs to have the same rapid fire ability they experience in video games.

They may not be able to take the guns away from these dregs of society but they should price/TAX the ammo way out of their reach and regulate where guns can be fired.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

81. Damn, this is so heartbreaking.

To have to ask yourself if your child might not have been gunned down if........

Guns must go along with the magazines - they're the delivery systems.

[Sophiegirl]

86. This thread breaks my heart

I really mean this.

Pro-guns vs anti-guns. The issues between pro and con are astounding.

The Internet, including social media, has shed a blinding light on this thing touted by the government as "gun control." The argument rages on.

Lets face the facts. Big money..Big lobby...and those who pretend they aren't a part of the problem-- yet, well-- seem to rule America.

No more shall we hear...or believe in..."and crown thy good with brotherhood...."

I have no issue with lawful gun ownership, but I believe it must be as regulated as a simple driver's license. It appears to take more info to get a driver's license than to purchase a gun! Why is that so offensive to existing gun owners?

What I would like to see is lawful gun owners step up and defend their right to own weapons that are meant to protect their home as opposed to guns that are meant to kill as many people as possible in the least amount of time.

But sadly, that won't happen because of big NRA and other money.

Geez, now I am depressed.