300+ teens attack pedestrians on Chicago's Magnificent mile. 28 arrested

[cali]

More than two dozen teens were arrested Saturday night after dozens of groups began randomly attacking pedestrians on Chicago's Magnificent Mile.

Police responded to reports of disturbances around 6:30 p.m. Saturday near Michigan and Chicago avenues. They said a number of teens took to the streets and started fighting.

Police said 28 teens were arrested during the incident and charged with misdemeanor reckless conduct and battery and later released, according to Police News Affairs. Eleven other teens were charged with misdemeanor charges after they allegedly attacked a group of women on the CTA Red Line, police said.

“You have over three to four hundred teenagers with mob action, jumping on individuals that are downtown,” community activist Andrew Holmes said. “Multiple people have been arrested and I caution those parents that get this call about your child being arrested--maybe you need to check your child.”

Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Hundreds-of-Teens-Mob-Pedestrians-in-the-Loop-200755191.html#ixzz2PDaIlmcV

[frazzled]

1. Glad I was out of town on Saturday

I don't often walk on Michigan Avenue anymore (because I hate to shop), but it's possible I could have gone over there on a beautiful spring Saturday, because I actually do have two baby gifts to get and because it's a nice stroll.

This "wilding" thing is getting out of hand, not just here in Chicago but in many cities (New York City was on guard for a purported gang-initiation wilding, flash mob on Easter day). I'm glad Mr. Holmes made his clear statement on the air after this event, because it's getting a bit scary.

Does this remind anyone of Marlon Brando and his motorcycle gang in The Wild One? Are we reliving the 1950s? The youth are getting restless, and I don't blame them. But hey, kids, you can't jump on innocent passersby or descend on them en masse to steal their purses. Not cool.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. Just wait until the gangs get tired of just attacking people in their own neighborhoods and Mich Ave

Home invasions are on the upswing.

In Chicago, the police won't even send a patrol car for a burglary unless the perpetrator or perpetrators are still on the premises. The victims are supposed to go to a police station and report the crime.

Nobody is making an attempt to force you to own a firearm in your home for self-defense. But 3rd-Way Democrats want to renew the AWB regardless of how many millions of law-abiding Democrats own firearms for lawful purposes. They use magic words "assault weapon" to influence others.

Maybe you are now in a neighborhood where there are not street assaults and home invasions. Maybe that will always stay that way. If you think that it might not continue that way forever, and if you know Democrats other than 3rd-Way Democrats who want to own firearms in their homes to deter criminals and for self-defense, you might want to re-think that renew-the-AWB thing.

Even Dianne Feinstein owns a firearm for self-defense.

[frazzled]

58. This kind of paranoia baffles me

I bet you don't even live in Chicago. Why are people always so afraid someone will invade their home? Life must be miserable for you being so scared all the time.

Renew the Assault Weapons Ban.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

62. Projection much?

Afraid that people are going to attack you with "Assault Weapons"?

[frazzled]

67. No, that anyone needs an assault weapon to protect themselves

in their home, from imaginary invaders.

Or frankly, that any kind of gun will protect yourself from imaginary or even real invaders. Or that people who come to steal your stereo are deserving of death. The whole thing is nuts to me. And I'm a woman who has lived in large urban environments my entire adult life.

I'm talking about extremely paranoid people who think they are in constant danger of invasion.

[Mojorabbit]

221. A good friend of mine was shot in his own home by an armed burglar.

It happens where I live and I am sure it happens in other places also.
Peace, Mojo

[Marengo]

251. Everyone's experience is identical to yours?

"Or frankly, that any kind of gun will protect yourself from imaginary or even real invaders.

I'm sure he meant her no harm ...

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/police-woman-shot-intruder-9-times-in-self-defense/nFB7g/

[jmg257]

73. Of course. I figure the people in Sandy Hook probably didn't give it much thought.

Combine that with Aurora, and now just about everyone knows better. After VT you could say the same thing about handguns.

Fear causes people to do all kinds of smart things...hire lifeguards, put fences around pools, install airbags in cars, enact speed limits, require smoke detectors in their homes, etc etc.

So why not reduce the fear of people getting mowed down by guns in bunches?

No good reason not to. Especially not any need for assault rifles or hi-cap mags to provide adequate self-defense at home.

[HappyMe]

82. I'm pretty sure little kids in school, teachers, people

in malls or in movie theaters, or high school kids weren't scared or expecting it at all.

[krispos42]

150. Well, why are you so afraid of rifles with protruding pistol grips?

That's what an "assault weapon" is yanno. Read Feinstein's proposal.

Under her proposal, semi-automatic firearms that feed from a detachable magazine would still be legal to buy and sell, new or used, as long as they don't have things like protruding pistol grips.

And people are afraid their home will be invaded because they are in their homes. Who wouldn't worry about being beaten and tied up (or worse) while criminals ransack your house? Who wouldn't be afraid of being mentally and/or physically scarred from the trauma of such an event?

[Hoyt]

157. I'm sure if our gun toting friends had been in Chicago, a bunch of unarmed teenagers would be dead,

shot by gun toting cowboys claiming they felt their lives were in danger.

Looks to me that Chicago's gun laws prevented a bunch of unnecessary deaths. But I'm sure many in the gungeon will use this as another reason to buy a gun, practice on targets resembling humans, and other lethal crud.

And no, I don't condone what the gangs did. Lock em up.

But turning a bunch of gun toters -- who have been practicing for years for a chance to shoot someone, particularly if a minority -- is/was not the answer. The police handled it, and will handle it in the future. In other areas of the country gun lovers -- many bigots -- will use this as further excuse to arm up. Wayne LaPierre will run scary ads aimed at the predominantly white NRA members and those who support them, but are too cheap to pay dues.

[krispos42]

159. Considering the number of teens arrested for battery...

...maybe their lives were in danger.


Your mentality that people that are being attacked should wait until they are on the verge of being beaten unconcious before defending themselves is odd.

[Hoyt]

165. Few, if any, were hurt. Of course a "menacing" crowd would be justification enought for gun cultists

to cut loose with their hi-cap mags, being all scared for their life and stuff by the mean looking gangs.

In this case, the gun toters would have been wrong. But the chance to shoot unarmed teenagers is a gun cultist's dream.

[jmg257]

174. Umm...because gun fuckers keep using them to shoot & kill bunches of people???

[krispos42]

179. So, same gun without z pistol grip is somehow better? n/t

[jmg257]

180. Of course not...not if it is used to murder and shoot bunches of people.

Is that a(nother) trick question???

[krispos42]

184. That's what makes a rifle into an "assault weapon"

Put a pistol grip on a Mini-14, it begins an assault weapon. Replace it with a traditional straight grip, it is no longer an "assault weapon".


I've read the language of the 1993 AWB, and Feinstein's proposed 2013 AWB. The scenario I just described is using the 2013 proposed ban language.


Are you starting to see why an AWB is seen as such a force? How long before him stores in Connecticut are selling AR-15 s with traditional grips instead of pistol
grips?


one week? two?

[jmg257]

185. That's great. But I didn't write the AWB. I have read the federal bills, and numerous

Others..numerous times. Of course, I understand why they are written the way they are...you likely do too.

I agree they usually aren't strict enough to be all that effective. Besides several obvious weaknesses, most should have a designated authoritive board mandated to strengthen the bill and add new weapons 'on the fly'. That would help avoid 'skirting the law' as you describe.

[krispos42]

191. *shrug*

They're written the way they are because of moral panic.

People don't like the idea of "military styled" weapons in the hand of civilians, even though we're just talking about common rifles and handguns and such. Regardless of the numbers of bells and whistles it has, an AR-15 is simply the launching mechanism for a Ø0.224" bullet made of copper and lead and maybe a bit of plastic in the tip. There are dozens, even hundreds, of manual-action rifles that are also launching platforms for Ø0.224" bullets made of copper and lead and maybe with a bit of plastic in the tip.

So, even though "military style" is really just an accumulation of logical ergonomic features for a rifle, they are portrayed as evil and "not belonging on our streets".

I mean, it's not like we're talking about guns that shoot artillery shells or homing missiles or electro-magnetic pulses or heat rays or poison gas or something. It's a launching mechanism for an unguided chunk of lead and copper.


If the problem is the high number of rounds that a semi-automatic rifle can shoot in a short period of time, then taking away a protruding pistol grip or a quick-adjusting buttstock is NOT an answer. Outlawing semiautomatics is.

Of course, nobody is proposing that. All the podium-thumping politicians that are so eager to ban "assault weapons" as a critical, essential component to reducing gun violence in America are entirely silent on the idea of banning semi-automatic rifles as a glass.

The politicians want to be seen as "doing something", and since another AWB has, inexplicably, been the Holy Grail of the gun-control movement for 9 years now, that's what they are going for.

Remember, these are the same people that have failed to protect the public from Big Oil, Wall Street, Big Health Insurance, the prison-industrial complex, mortgage-backed securities, systemic torture, the Iraq invasion, the Patriot Act, etc., etc., etc., are now trying to grab onto something also popular but useless. And trust me, they'll be mentioning how they "Took On The Gun Lobby!!!!!!" when they beg you for your money over the next 18 months.


The only solution is a blanket ban on semiautomatic long guns. ANYTHING else is useless pandering to public moral outrage. And if you're not going to do that, if the votes and the political will is lacking, then let it go. Stop the war on secondary ergonomic features and do something else, like universal background checks.

Except, of course, that the vast majority of murders are done with handguns. All rifles, and all shotguns, each account for about 5% of murders. Semiauto, bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action, etc.

So what is happening is that your side is expending maximum political effort and running a very great electoral risk for a pretty minimal reward. Your side's only hope is that the corporate media fails, as usual, to get the story straight.

Semiautomatic rifles that feed from detachable magazines will still be sold under Feinstein's 2013 ban, and Connecticut's proposed ban that is scheduled for a vote this week. It may be a "big political victory", but it's not effective lawmaking.

Remember, the gun that Fuckstain used at Sandy Hook was not an "assault weapon" under Connecticut law, so that right these should show the ineffectiveness of drawing an arbitrary line between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" semiautomatics.

[jmg257]

194. Yep..like I said, AWBs don't usually go far enough. For various reasons,

Some of which you memtion.

Of course just how far they fall short depends on their intended goal. But typically not all that effective.

[krispos42]

197. "assault weapon" is an arbitrary term.

In 1993 it meant one thing. In 2013 it means something else.

The Cumstain that shot up Newtown did not use an "assault weapon"; Connecticut has had a definition of and a ban on "assault weapons" since 1994, either under federal or state law.

Connecticut is now re-defining "assault weapon" to make Cumstain's rifle an assault weapon ex post facto.


The real problem is this:

There are 133,000 K-12 schools in the country, public and private. They are occupied for 6½ hours a day, 180 days a year, by children and teachers. The children and teachers are, by and large, essentially helpless against an armed intruder hell-bent on suicidal mass slaughter.

Once in a while, a lone wolf bent on non-rational, non-political rage, will enter one of those schools, without warning, with a gun or two, and start shooting a shitload of people before committing suicide.

There is no real response to this. We don't have the bunker mentality to put serious armed security at all 133,000 schools; we don't want our kids to be in an armed camp and we aren't willing to pay the taxes to do so.

Because it's a lone wolf scenario, there isn't an organization to penetrate or keep taps on, there's not really anything to go on. And if the cops tried to investigate every moody teenager, they'd get nothing else done.


So our solution is to ban future sales of rifles with pistol grips, and future sales of magazines larger than 10 rounds, in the hope that a) somehow not having a pistol grip will save lives, and b) making the spree shooter change magazines more often (assuming he doesn't simply buy older magazines) will some how enable teachers to tackle the shooter during a reload.


If we are able to proceed with our liberal agenda on social security, universal single-payer health care, universal secondary education, quality primary education, legalizing drugs, and socializing our prisons and shrinking our prison population, all violence rates will fall, and by extension gun violence.

I don't think it's best for society for our people to be held helpless by the health-insurance companies, tied to soulless corporations for benefits, having to take out the dollar equivalent of a mortgage to get a college education, and locked up for a decade for smoking pot or snorting cocaine, just as long as the gun-violence rate drops slightly.

[jmg257]

202. Of course its an arbitrary term. As long as it gets codified, who cares?

Gun Digest had no problem using it when referring to various firearms...AR-180s, AKs, SAR48, the AUG, AP74, the Deawoo, ilalmets - all the classic Assault weapons. Really not that hard to tell what they were talking about. Seems most have various features in common.

[pipoman]

192. Thats what we need, an "authoritive board"

to unilaterally decide which consumer products with enumerated protections are too scary looking to be owned by mortals..FFS

[jmg257]

193. Naa..just to avoid manufacturers exploiting 'loopholes' in order to skirt the

"spirit " of the Law. Simple things like changing the grip on an AR and call it the ZR? Nice try, but...Banned! Adding a muzzle brake in place of a flash supressor? Oops...still banned! Sawing off the bayo lug...oh well...still banned! You get the idea.

In that way, the XM-15 used in Newtown wouldn't have been legal.

It helps avoid all that 'laws based on cosmetic features are useless' stuff many find so distasteful.

[pipoman]

196. An AR without

a pistol grip and a 5 round magazine is almost exactly the same rifle as my 1950's deer rifle..same rate of fire..my deer rifle is much more powerful however..no, the ambiguity is and will always be in the definitions and I really don't think we need a board to determine the "spirit of the law", it either fits the definition or it doesn't..

[jmg257]

199. Great. Next time some gun fucker grabs an old Woodmaster and

Massacres a couple dozen people, or some other gun freak loads one with a 100 round mag and shoots up a theater, people will consider those a real threat too.

A board is needed so the Remington can remain legal, but the AKs don't...whether they have bayos or not, or muzzle brakes welded into place, or not.

[pipoman]

214. Yeah, right

so you want a subjective bunch of bureaucrats defining 'spirit of the law"...no, that is what the courts are for...it is a completely implausible, impossible idea..just like almost every other gun control advocate's fantasies..

[jmg257]

216. Actually I want effective laws that can't be easily by-passed by

Some manufacturer changing a grip angle or equipment attachment point, or a couple letters in a name. I also want to keep from preventing adequate self-defense, hunting, target shooting, collecting, and the like, by avoiding the passage of complete bans.

Let's let the courts determine constitutionality, and let the people and their reps decide the law. (Lobbyists can all go fuck themselves).

Nothing impossible, just have to convince enough people to agree.

[pipoman]

218. Except the grip (and a couple other cosmetic differences) is all that

defines "assault weapon". There has never been a AWB which wasn't, with the exception of magazine capacity, which wasn't entirely about cosmetics because if function is specified it would necessarily effect 100 year old family heirlooms. So if Colt issued a XR15 (as you suggested) without the various features specified in the fictional AWB, on what grounds would your board have to deny it to the market place?

"Let's let the courts determine constitutionality, and let the people and their reps decide the law."...except you are suggesting a panel of bureaucrats to do the job of the court.

It seems that it should be easy to write an unambiguous definition of "assault weapon" but it has proven to be impossible without inclusion of millions of people's sporting and hunting guns too. There is a film on youtube showing the Director of the BATFE and several firearms experts telling a congressional committee just that..I believe the reason there is no federal AWB going to be passed again in our lifetimes is two fold,,1) impossible to produce an unambiguous definition of AW and 2) there are 10's of millions of modern rifles in private ownership "in common use for lawful purposes", the standard set by SCOTUS in 1939..

[alp227]

154. " Why are people always so afraid someone will invade their home?"

BECAUSE IT'S REALITY?????

[peachwired7]

205. huh?

How did a discussion on the flash mob turn into owning/carrying a firearm?

What, if you had been there, and had a gun, you'd have shot some of these savages? Before the PC police come to take me away, I must clarify - if you are attacking random people just for the fun of it, you are a savage.

[Hoyt]

217. I'm not sure "savages" describes this situation, especially if you think playing judge, jury,

Jesus, executioner would be appropriate for unarmed teens. Not saying they were right, but not dead wrong either.

[Marengo]

223. Randomly attacking pedestrians is not "dead wrong"?

Under what circumstances is it acceptable?

[Hoyt]

224. Shooting unarmed teenagers isn't either.

[Marengo]

238. You didn't answer the question...

Why not?

[Hoyt]

239. Because it is a stupid question, posed by one who thinks a bunch of armed bigots

should take the law onto their own hands. Police handled it, and we don't need bigots with guns playing cowboy, judge and jury.

[Marengo]

241. Your words: "Not saying they were right, but not dead wrong either."...

Care to explain what you mean by "but not dead wrong either"?

[Hoyt]

242. Your obtusement, it means what they did was wrong, but not wrong enough for a

bigot with a gun to shoot them. Jeeeeez.

[Marengo]

243. Your poor grammar...I suggest a rewrite if that is what you meant to convey.

Your statement can easily be interpreted as condonment on some level, "dead wrong" being an idiom which indicates absolute error.

[Hoyt]

244. I obviously, except to you, did not use it in that context.

I really wish you would leave your guns at home.

[Marengo]

245. The definition of the idiom in question is clear, you misused it regardless of context

"Not saying they were right, but not dead wrong either."

They were not absolutely in error harassing pedestrians?

[Marengo]

246. Explain: "I really wish you would leave your guns at home."

What do you mean by this statement?

[Marengo]

259. I am awaiting an explaination of your statement "I really wish you would leave your guns at home."

[Hoyt]

261. I grew tired of having to explain everything to you. I think it is plain enough. n/t

[Marengo]

268. Nope, you're not weaseling out of this one. I'm waiting for an explaination...

as to the meaning of your cryptic statement. Your unwillingness to do so now has the appearance of a lack of integrity.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

225. Very, very little of what they actually did could be characterized as "attacking."

[Marengo]

240. According to the article, 28 have been charged with battery...

11 others with undefined misdemeanor charges for having "allegedly attacked a group of women on the Chicago Transit Authority's Red Line"

"Attacked"...the authors words, not mine. Now, for the sake of argument, if the majority of these individuals engaged in something less than "attacking", harassment say, you would have no objection to this behavior?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

247. They were shagged into the Red Line by the cops and some folks got tussled in the process.

And I'm not going to play with you on your harassment point. That could go on forever. Try the gungeon.

[Marengo]

248. The charges as mentioned in the article are unjustified?

"And I'm not going to play with you on your harassment point. That could go on forever."

Are you sure? Might be fun, then again...

[Skip Intro]

249. What? All was cool until the cops showed up?

"Tussled?"

Wow.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

252. Heavens, no! They were being flagrantly black, teenaged, and scary!

[Skip Intro]

262. .

[Paladin]

71. Your post reeks of wishful thinking. (nt)

[Enrique]

103. this made you think of guns?

I'm sure it was scary for the people who ran into this, but what does it have to do with guns? Why not have the police take care of it, like they did?

About an hour later, 17 people were arrested after they allegedly bumped into other people on the sidewalks, blocked sidewalks and traffic on the street and started fights among themselves on the Magnificent Mile near North Michigan Avenue and East Huron Street. No injuries were reported.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

107. No, (1) the tag-line in the post ("Renew the Assault Weapons Ban") and (2) the statement "Glad I was

out of town on Saturday."

Actually, in contrast to what you posted, the OP reported

"Police said 28 teens were arrested during the incident and charged with misdemeanor reckless conduct and battery and later released, according to Police News Affairs. Eleven other teens were charged with misdemeanor charges after they allegedly attacked a group of women on the CTA Red Line, police said. "

You say, "No injuries were reported." That's not true. Why isn't the truth good enough.

[DonCoquixote]

135. how about "no fatalities"

Like the Chinese incident where someone went beserk stabbing chinese children, and no one died. How many would have died if some trigger happy suburbanites started blasting away at anyone young, male, and non-white?

[elehhhhna]

118. CPD is severely understaffed

their topcop is an ongoing, UTTER FAILURE

the city's bankrupt

these teens are mostly immune from meaningful prosecution = no real consequences

it's a terrible mess

this will bury Rahm's political future -- so at least there's that

[HiPointDem]

178. chicago has 12,244 police officers, one for every .019th of a square mile. how many do you think

it should have?

[pipoman]

2. When the weak are defenseless

and strong victimizers know they are defenseless bad things happen...

[frazzled]

3. What are you saying exactly?

That the kids descending en masse on walkers and jumping on them, grabbing purses, etc. is understandable behavior, and that the few who were arrested were victims of the powerful police force, or something? Because if you do, you didn't listen to that community activist's message.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your post: who are the strong victimizers and who are the defenseless people here?

[JohnnyBoots]

4. I think it was a

reference to Chicago's current lack of concealed carry. Knowing everyone is unarmed allows brigands to take liberties with law abiding folk.

Chicago is weak on crime as well, this further enhances the predatory mindset. They won't have to face any repercussions for their actions. Especially when teens know they won't be charged as adults or with much of anything that sticks at all.

It's a perfect storm allowing the criminally inclined to run amok.

[frazzled]

6. OMG

You are so so so very very wrong about that. Here I thought you were defending the kids against police overreaction. And here you are advocating for a bloodbath.

Keep guns off our streets altogether. Lordy, lordy, people are blind. Escalating violence is what you are advocating for ... and a bunch of bloodied innocent bodies in the street.

[JohnnyBoots]

9. Where did I advocate for a bloodbath?

You are trying to frame me in outrageous hyperbole.

Allowing for conceal carry, which IL will have in about a month, is not escalating violence. It is an active deterrent to criminals running amok, robbing and harassing everyone in sight. I am willing to bet that the crime rate is down as well as events like the above within one year of CCW in Chicago.

Just because a person has a CCW does not mean they turn into Charles Bronson from Deathwish. This simple fact of a criminal not knowing which law abiding citizen is packing makes them think twice about mugging them or breaking into a domicile.

Why do you think it is so bad in Chicago right now for the law abiding?

[HereSince1628]

14. The NRA wants guns out of the hands of people who are potentially dangerous to others

But conceal carriers advocate achieving safer communities by intimidating people with the threat that concealed carriers are potentially dangerous to others.

I really don't want to take away your guns, but the irony of that position is so heavy it's crushing me.

[JohnnyBoots]

20. Your

authoritarian tone is poisonous to honest debate.

How is carrying concealed 'Intimidating people', when said people have no idea that you are carrying, by definition, a concealed weapon?

Every person who carries a concealed weapon needs a license. (Unless they live in the great state of Vermont). This rules out potentially dangerous people with criminal records or intentions.

You're grabbing at straws because you know I am right.

[HereSince1628]

25. Oh, the nature of the intimidation you are implying is readily shown...

"This simple fact of a criminal not knowing which law abiding citizen is packing makes them think twice about mugging them or breaking into a domicile."

What else could that thinking twice be based on? Statements have meaning, both expressed and implied.

An implication is that thing where a reader grasps the meaning in what is not said. It is also referred to in contemporary pop-culture as SUBTEXT--the unstated meaning of the text.

Pointing out curious irony isn't an authoritarian suppression of freedom.

BTW, trying to win an argument by referencing disparaging adjectives and nouns and setting them against a loved concept is called a name calling strawman argumentation against a red-herring.

[geek tragedy]

27. I'm not a gunner, but what's objectionable

about violent thugs being intimidated to the point they don't commit crimes of violence against other human beings?

There are a lot of good arguments against allowing people to be armed, but intimidation of violent thugs is one of the few positives, if it exists.

[HereSince1628]

30. I didn't say it was objectionable, I said it was heavily ironic

And I think it is ironic

The NRA wants to deny gun ownership to persons perceived to be potentially dangerous to others while simultaneously the NRA supports Concealed Carry, which is argued above as a means of making communities safe by creating persons who will be perceived to be dangerous to others because they are permitted to carry a gun.

[JohnnyBoots]

31. So,

So, you would rather have a criminal not think twice about mugging you or break into your house? Have fun with that and thanks for the English lesson! Have a great day!

[HereSince1628]

32. Well, now you're just running around trying to change the subject.

[JohnnyBoots]

33. I can totally see why you

have 26,000 posts.

And you didn't answer my question.

[HereSince1628]

34. And that's an adhominem yet another fallacy.

see above reply to G-T I believe it answers your question.

[JohnnyBoots]

39. What?

are you talking about?

[HereSince1628]

42. reply #30 to GT

[JohnnyBoots]

48. You never answered my question from the above post...

"So, you would rather have a criminal not think twice about mugging you or breaking into your house?"

Yes or no?

[HereSince1628]

54. I don't have preferences about what criminals think. But you've raised another curiosity

Your question seeks my concurrence with the implied position that putting said second thought/or causing said twice thinking in another persons head is a good, acceptable, and to be expected thing.

Now it seems to me that you are advocating imposing/initiating "right thoughts and right thought processes" in a person other than yourself.

That is the sort of thing authoritarians do...thought control, right? Get them to think what you want, and then they'll do what your want. But, but, wait, wait hold on...

In a reply up above you used "authoritarian" as a disparagement, and freedom to carry, well that's sort of libertine, the opposite of authoritarian.

Really I'm finding the internal contradictions more and more curious.

[JohnnyBoots]

56. You still didn't answer the question.

Instead you skirted around it ponitificating like someone who is not grounded in reality.

[HereSince1628]

57. I did answer it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted it answered

I don't have a preference for the way criminals think, either the first time or the second time.

[jmg257]

195. Wouldn't you prefer that criminals didn't have such unfettered acces to guns,

As is now the case?

[LanternWaste]

181. I think calling someone an authoritarian merely for holding a different position is

I think calling someone an authoritarian merely for holding a different position is also detrimental to debate. However, I'm sure you'll rationalize your use of it and pretend that your debate too, is honest.

Additionally, please forgive me for not using melodramatic qualifiers such as "poisonous", as I believe they're used to cover up a lack of knowledge...)

Good luck!

[sabrina 1]

24. Why is it so bad?? It has zero to do with weapons, and everything to do with

economics. When generations are deprived of good jobs and a decent education, eventually bad things happen. We are a country sinking into third world status, so no one should be surprised.

But you think arming everyone is the answer???

[JohnnyBoots]

28. I agree with you that at it's

heart it is a socio-economic issue. If people can fix that long term then the situation will be much better in the future.

My point was that if criminals are aware that random people may be legally carrying concealed it serves as a deterent to them acting on criminal impulses. The lack of that and weak enforcement of laws against thugs in Chicago empowers the behavior above of 300 hoodlums going nuts on a main Chicago street. That was my point.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

41. The Mag Mile is heavily patrolled. I don't see how the possibility of a few CCWs would be >>>

>>>much further deterrent.

[geek tragedy]

60. A slap on the wrist in the juvi justice system

isn't the most effective deterrent . . .

[Gidney N Cloyd]

74. Fair enough, but I'd still prefer too-light punishment over the risk of >>>

>>>amateur crossfire in one of the busiest shopping areas in the country.

[geek tragedy]

78. I agree. nt

[HiPointDem]

182. slap on the wrist? not if you're black in illinois.

In Illinois, Black youth are overrepresented at every decision point in the juvenile justice system. For example, based on the 2005 statewide data, Black youth represent:

20% of the overall youth population;
61% of youth arrested; and
52% of youth placed in secure detention.

http://www.burnsinstitute.org/state_map.php
http://blog.al.com/live/2010/03/blacks_4_times_more_likely_to.html

Nationwide, African-Americans represent 26% of juvenile arrests, 44% of youth who are detained, 46% of the youth who are judicially waived to criminal court, and 58% of the youth admitted to state prisons .

http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet

[patrice]

114. No matter how YOU intend that, it can also suggest thuggery as political action, which can be an

appealing concept to those who are otherwise disadvantaged and that's a very sad thing, because odds are very likely heavily against the more positive outcomes. Even if they did get concealed carry, by responsible gun owners, and even if they did get some amendments to the criminal code that might address under-lying criminality (more or less, but most likely LOTS LESS, effectively) neither of those two things will fix the what created that situation in the first place, so one set of oppressors will be replaced with another set of oppressors, wearing different labels, but owned by the same royalty and violence is THEIR game, so they always always win.

Violence (in its many many forms) IS the Oppressor.

[Eleanors38]

272. "thuggery as political action." I doubt some F.U.s think along those lines...

But, it does ring of the stuff I heard in the late 60s.

CCW is not social policy, nor is it designed to reduce punk-outs in the street. But it can be a way for one to defend his/her self, and 80%+ of states recognize that right.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

11. Since when did he advocate "for a bloodbath"? Why isn't the truth good enough?

Why use the strawman?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

10. x2

Exactly right.

[pipoman]

17. Yep..that's what it was..

[malibea]

99. Where are the parents of these hoodlums?

I still ask- and want to know- where are the parents of these hoodlums; and why aren't the parents being held responsible for the criminal acts of their offspring?

Any answers?????
Anyone???

[elehhhhna]

125. our teens all across america

are, for the most part, totally unsupervised when they're not in school - whether their parents are married or single, wealthy or destitute, working or not...it a national disgrace and we/they are going to pay dearly for it.

[ancianita]

130. It was Spring Break for kids, not parents, who are likely working, or at night, hear

different stories from their kids about being "at Tina's/Tony's house." A likely few aren't living with their parents. Don't worry. They pay. They end up paying bail, or their kids end up getting community service or other kinds of sentencing from a judge.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/juvenile-court-sentencing-options-32225.html

[malibea]

271. WE pay!

You mean WE PAY. These "kids" don't care because the parents always end up with the short end of the stick and thereby paying the cost. If the parents would rear the kids correctly, they would not turn into hoodlums in the first place. If these parents can not raise these kids, the parents should not have them at all. I am tired of taking care of somebody else's kids!

[Skittles]

220. pipeman thinks guns solve everything

[frazzled]

5. Removed (reply to wrong response)

[Blue_Tires]

22. You wanna gun down a bunch of minors, be my guest

just leave me out of it..

[pipoman]

117. More people die annually from beatings than

from rifles and some of those are 16 year old problems doing the beating. A bunch of juvenile delinquents beating people en masse could be life threatening to their victims. As a parent I try (tried) to keep my kids away from stupid shit which could result in bad things happening to them..if something bad happened to them because of stupid shit they do...as painful as it might be, it would be hard to blame anyone but them..what is it people say? 'Play stupid games, win stupid prizes' or some such..

[gollygee]

120. Why do you single out rifles instead of saying "guns" in general?

Answer: to manipulate how people respond to the idea of people carrying guns around wherever they go, like Chicago's mag mile.

[pipoman]

128. Have you not noticed

that the current focus of gun control is almost exclusively on rifles with the assault weapons ban? By now, considering the number of gun threads in GD, anyone who doesn't know that criminals with handguns kill the most people aren't paying attention (interesting that there isn't any bills effecting handguns, eh?)...while many are calling for a ban of cosmetic features on rifles. No, most people don't know that more people are killed in beatings than with rifles given the amount of attention given to rifles over the last many years..Further, the inclination by some to play off masses of physically strong people going around beating on innocent, weaker victims as 'boys will be boys' with complete disregard of the reality of danger to innocent people is sad, imo..

[gollygee]

132. No one would be carrying an assault rifle down Michigan Ave.

They'd be carrying a handgun. If you want to make your anti-gun-control argument fit this story, then it has to fit this story.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

144. Some would claim they have (or should have) the right to carry an assault rifle down Michigan Ave.

[pipoman]

188. Apparently the context of the discussion is different than what you

wish it were...

[freshwest]

266. Currently it's on AWB because that's faster killing. Going after handguns in the hands of criminals

is going to take years.

In all the time tObama has been in office, he has always ended talks on violence with a mention of the tragedy of youngsters in gangs and the daily killings.

These are done by handguns but they are not forgotten by any means. The disintegration of civil society may first profit the wealthy manufacturers and sellers, but it destroys the poorer first and then with karmic justice, it spreads up to the rest of society.

It's all one piece, at least that's what I think. More regulation is the only way to stop this, not more guns.

[pipoman]

269. Except

Gun crime and overall crime have been declining for some years now...since the late 1970s..even though every day there are more guns than the day before..States have some latitude and will enact a piece here or there, but that isn't limitless in light of the incorporation decision in McDonald v. Chicago. The SCOTUS 70 year standard of 'in common use for lawful purposes' will be the standard used in decisions of challenges to various state attempts to enact gun control legislation..IMHO

[Eleanors38]

273. Your data is correct. And will be roundly ignored.

[pipoman]

274. As usual..

people here tend to be reluctant to look for solutions in favor of railing for the constitutionally impossible..

This sub-thread comes to mind too..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2634162

[elehhhhna]

126. if they push your mom inot oncoming traffic,

you may feel differently

[Blue_Tires]

155. Possibly...

Still doesn't mean I'd want to pull out a sidearm and blast randomly into a mob of teens behaving badly...

[pipoman]

189. Isn't it funny how

monolithically we speculate hypothetical situations which could have a million variables in reality?

[Blue_Tires]

228. isn't that just human nature?

[L0oniX]

55. We've had teens assaulting older people here for no reason other than age. n/t

[pipoman]

122. No doubt..

some don't like it, but there is a deterrent in knowledge that some portion of the population can defend themselves with bad results coming to the attacker...some criminal types are willing to throw caution to the wind..the deterrent value comes from those who reasonably weigh the risks and hear occasional stories of someone being severely injured or killed while attempting to victimize a weaker victim...crimes of opportunity with little risk are attractive to many desperate people..add risk and the number who will try it are fewer.

I remember a string of armed liquor store robberies in my state back in the 1990's...before anyone could carry guns concealed. I was selling wholesale whiskey at the time and knew a couple of the victims. One morning a liquor store was robbed and the store owner killed the armed robber. About 2 days later another armed robber was killed in the same area. It turned out that the first guy shot was a copycat of the 2nd guy who had robbed 3 or 4 successfully before being killed. It was 2 years before I heard of another armed liquor store robbery and they are still rare. I believe it is still a deterrent in that area..

[marsis]

106. Oh!

For just a second there I thought you were talking about how the obscenely wealthy are taking control of our government.

[Capt. Obvious]

131. I forgot Bernie Goetz is out of jail

[pipoman]

190. as he should be..

[Capt. Obvious]

227. GOETZ/ZIMMERMAN 2016

[Hoyt]

229. LMAO. With folks like LaPierre appointed to high Cabinet positions or Supreme Court.

[freshwest]

263. GAH! Don't even think that.

[HiPointDem]

7. stinks of the fake 'wilding' story.

[cali]

15. oh fer fuck's sake. post any evidence at all that this story is fake

I find it intellectually dishonest to, as you so frequently do, disagree with any news that doesn't fit tidily into your little frame.

[grantcart]

53. Do you have a problem with Trotskyite revisionism?

[HiPointDem]

153. revisionism is the province of chicago's corporate-owned media. update!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2599106

[HiPointDem]

133. i have no evidence this story is fake. but others have been, & when i hear "gangs of 300 blacks

were wilding" you'll forgive me for being suspicious, i'm sure.

especially when rahmbo is massively unpopular and needs political traction.

[OnlinePoker]

187. I saw nothing in the report (written or visual) that said they were black. n/t

[HiPointDem]

234. but they were.

[OnlinePoker]

235. That may be, but you said "When I hear gangs of 300 blacks"

This wasn't in the article but you immediately voiced that you felt it could be fake because of this. You're using your past historical perspective to cloud the issue at hand which was a mob of young people indiscriminately assaulted people along the strip. Their color doesn't matter. This could easily have gotten out of hand, but I think the police used a measured response to control the situation through arrests of some and sending others back towards their homes.

[HiPointDem]

236. the coverage made it completely clear that they were black. and the historical context is

that stories like this are inexorably woven with racism.

people were not indiscriminately assaulted. that you are under this misapprehension demonstrates my point.

[11 Bravo]

123. Yup, except for the dozens of arrests and scores of witnesses, it's exactly the same.

Holy shit, I wish DU could disassociate itself from some self-professed "liberal Democrats".

[HiPointDem]

127. were you one of them? cause there were arrests and witnesses in the central park case too.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2004&dat=19900627&id=1LciAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LbUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1417,5317665

[11 Bravo]

136. Operative terms: "dozens" and "scores". That was not the case in the NYPD ...

bullshit "wilding" accusations. You've already been asked, but do you have any reason to deny that a bunch of punks didn't just start beating the shit out of folks along the Mile, as is being claimed by a shit-load of people?

[HiPointDem]

139. because the media always reports accurately. especially the chicago media.

speaking of which: update!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2599106

[HiPointDem]

142. update! yes, i have reason to think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2599106

This has not been reported accurately to date, so I wanted to post a portion of the email I just received from my alderman, whose district also contains that part of the Mag Mile:



I am writing to provide you with some additional information regarding the very disturbing incident that occurred at the intersection of Chicago and Michigan avenues on Saturday evening. Please know that I have already contacted the Chicago Police Department to request a detailed plan for the 2013 Warm Weather Season, to deter these incidents as the weather continues to improve.

(snip)

On Saturday evening, large groups of teenagers converged on the intersection of Chicago Avenue and Michigan Avenue. According to the Police Department, there were approximately 400 youth in the crowd, with roughly 50 police officers originally detailed to the area. This large crowd gathering was orchestrated via social media (Facebook and Twitter) messaging, predominantly by teenagers and some individuals in their early 20's.

As the Police Department witnessed the crowd growing and becoming increasingly volatile, the Commander of the 18th District redeployed additional police resources from other areas of the District to Michigan Avenue. There was a substantial surge in police presence at this location when fighting finally broke out between different groups of teens in the larger crowd.

The Police Department reported that there were no robberies during the incident, and the multiple battery charges and arrests were fights that broke out between rival groups of teenagers in the large crowd that assembled at this location. The Police reported a few pedestrians received minor injuries when the youth were fleeing the Police and bumped into them on the sidewalk - but no pedestrians were targeted by the crowd.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

148. THANK YOU

[lunasun]

211. This IS what they said in local media reports...they started to fight

they were not stealing purses or in need of gunning down but an itchy finger there wouldnt need to check out the details I guess
I think those SYG states create open season...defending a lot of paranoia more than anything
I cant believe so many here want to shoot into the crowd to "defend themselves"

By the way it looks from Tv like they broke up the crowd with police on horses....geee what a concept when they could of used rifles!!!

[HappyMe]

8. Good grief!

Instead if doing something useful with their time, these jackasses do this.

[tom2255]

18. I'm sure next week

they will be volunteering at a homeless shelter.

Or maybe doing something even more violent for the fun of it, like rape or murder.


One or the other.

[HappyMe]

23. They're thugs.

They know they won't get charged as adults. Which is too bad.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

12. In the past, the Chicago Tribune, the Sun Times, and others in the Chicago-area MSM have

covered this up or ignored it.

Apparently, they don't want to scare away the tourists or dissuade people from going to the downtown area.

[elehhhhna]

137. like when the beaches in CHGO are suddenly closed on hot weekends --

"too crowded" was last summers euphemism for "mobs of 30 - 40 gangster teenaged boys throwing gang signs, knocking familiies down (!)< stealing cell phones and bikes, and fighting"

[ieoeja]

146. Where do you get this insane shit about Chicago?

If I recall correctly, aren't you the one is always posting bizarre conspiracy theories about Chicago?

Like, for instance, the post to which I am replying. Last year they began using flash mob tactics for downtown thefts. And it was heavily reported in all the local media.

Where did you get the purely imaginary idea that there was a Chicago media blackout? To whom are you listening, and how many times do you have to learn that they are lying to you before you STOP FUCKING LISTENING TO THEM?

I also keep hearing how Chicago has the highest murder rate in the country even though FBI stats don't even us breaking into the top 20. Our murder rate is just over one-third that of some cities! But the lies just keep on rolling.

What is going on outside Chicago that generates these weird ass stories?!?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

158. "aren't you the one is always" -- No.

[grilled onions]

13. Less Wrist Slapping and More Punishment

This is not a game. They are endangering innocent people for no reason at all but for their own entertainment. They think the world is their stage and we are all props to be used in any way they see fit. Some of these I would hesitate to use the world "child" need to realize there are reprecussions for their actions and the parents should not get a free ride either. In decades past parents felt shame for having offspring that acted like animals but local law also felt the parents should take a little of the blame, at times, especially if they were repeat offenders. Today it's all a game that you can't wait to put up on YouTube or Facebook to show the world just how cute and clever you are.

[sabrina 1]

26. Less poverty and more education would solve the problem. But let's keep filling

up jails instead and keep the money flowing to the top. Cut all social programs, make education so expensive only the wealthy can afford it and send all jobs overseas.

Punishment, the Reagan solution. That has worked so well after all these years.

[geek tragedy]

29. We should do both.

More education and economic opportunity, but also very real and very severe consequences for engaging in violent thuggery.

[sabrina 1]

35. We do one of those things. Which is why we have the most people incarcerated

than any country in the world or in history. How many more years do you want to apply the Reagan 'tough on crime' policies that have failed so miserably?

Children are not born thugs, they become thugs. Spending some of the money we spend on prisons and wars would pretty much end this problem. But who wants to end it? It's extremely profitable to have a permanent underclass.

Punishment is our only answer to everything, war, jail, torture etc. You'd think by now someone would care enough to try putting a little money into THIS country for a change.

It's only going to get worse as more and more people find themselves without jobs, without hope.

Throw them in jail and then what? They get a great education in our prison system. We do have one of the worst prison systems in the world also. Did you ever visit one? It sure ends any illusions you may have about prison doing anything other than making things worse.

[geek tragedy]

37. The perpetrators here will suffer virtually no consequences

for their behavior. A misdemeanor charge as a minor is absolutely nothing. They'll laugh it off or even take it as a rite of passage--their first arrest.

Economic opportunities are really about the next generation of kids--need to think ahead.

[sabrina 1]

44. They have already suffered the consequences of a society that doesn't care about

its own people. I wonder why the US has the most criminals in the world behind bars? And I wonder why all that punishment doesn't work, things are only getting worse, with more and more people going to jail, and criminals becoming younger and younger?

When a country has as much inequality as this one has, then this is what happens. That is why most civilized societies try to provide opportunities, education and some kind of equality for all of its citizens. Not so much for THEM but because when you have a huge equality gap, you have a pretty dangerous threat to society as a whole.

And then there is our violent culture which promotes the stupid notion that being 'tough' means being 'strong'. A very violent culture. See this thread, the response to everything is violence, punishment, revenge etc.

We've been doing all that since Nixon/Reagan so why isn't it working?

[geek tragedy]

47. They are more victimizers than victims. And the people they prey upon

are typically not the affluent people in ritzy shopping areas, but rather other members of economically disadvantaged communities.

Would you want these kids living next door to elderly friends or family?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

66. Exactly. These aren't young Jean Valjeans stealing bread...

they're thugs beating up people for sport.

[HappyMe]

36. I agree about the poverty and education.

But I'm not willing to only blame that, and excuse those teens. The article didn't state what economic background all the kids came from.

[AngryAmish]

86. The problem is the jails are full and we have run out of money

Chicago, Cook County and the State of Illinois are broke. In fact we would need nearly a quarter trillion dollar windfall to get to broke. County jail is full. We can't pay past earned pensions let alone new social programs or jobs programs.

They are closing a bunch of schools in the black neighborhoods on the south and west sides. That is freaking everybody out because kids are going to be crossing into rival gang territory to go to school. SO another generation is going to drop out.

or

The real plan is to make life so unpleasant and unwelcoming to black folks in Chicago that they move. TPTB figure that in Chicago the demographics need to change like they have in New York and DC. THis means poor black folks have to leave. It is a deliberate plan. These wildings will continue to go on until Chicago develops a stop and frisk plan like NY.

Chicago is completely f'd up. I can no longer recommend tourists come to our fair city.

[CrispyQ]

109. It would be interesting to know how much of our violent culture is spurred by poor economics.

You eat shit from your boss for 40+ hours a week to take home a paycheck that barely covers your living expenses, if that. Everyone, everywhere is pissed off. You see it on the road, in the stores, with your neighbor next door, online forums, everywhere. People are sinking. They are frustrated. They feel powerless. The less educated you are, the easier it is for TPTB to distract & point blame elsewhere.

You are right - we are a very punitive society. It's one of the reasons why so many don't take issue with the prison industrial complex & the privatization & profit motif to lock up fellow citizens - they feel everyone there deserves to be there & it will never happen to them.

[tom2255]

16. So a person is beaten and robbed

simply because they are there, and they are outnumbered. How the hell do you ever feel safe walking around again?

[freshwest]

265. I guess one wouldn't, and would organize their outings very carefully. Women have to do that anyway.

[geek tragedy]

19. Charge them as felons and let them do some real jail time.

This is the second such mob attack in Chicago. It'll only get worse until perps have actual fear of the consequences of their behavior.

These aren't children, they're thugs.

[sabrina 1]

38. We do that already. We try children as adults and throw them in jail

we adult criminals. There they get a great education. We do not believe in rehab in America, just punishment. They get to view prison as home after a while, violence as the only way to survive.

It's funny to say 'throw them in jail' in a country that has more people in jail than the whole world and in history. Maybe we have a problem here? And maybe this is merely a symptom of the problem.

[geek tragedy]

43. Illinois only allows "serious offenses" to land a juvenile in adult court.

The misdemeanor charges in this case mean they'll get a half slap on the wrist and be back on the streets to do as they please in short order.

[HiPointDem]

256. yeah, americans kids get slaps on the wrist, that's why they're so bad.

Youth Incarceration Rate Around The World: Juvenile incarceration rate per 100,000 youth population.

[HappyMe]

45. I think that a few days in jail may just

scare some kids. They can see first hand what their lives will become if they continue this way.

[sabrina 1]

49. No, it does not work. Why do you think 'a few days in jail' is the way to 'scare'

young people? And when they come out after seeing the horror of our prison system, where do they go? To a job, a college, to a good home where they will get support? How many wealthy children get a 'few days in jail' when they act up? If you've ever visited one of our jails, you will see no wealthy children there, all you see are poor, uneducated children, serving time with adult criminals, being abused, yelled at, strip searched, removing all their dignity and self respect.

I would never send a child to an American prison, it is child abuse and does the exact opposite most of the time, of what you think it does.

Would you send your own child into one of those hell holes to teach them a lesson? American prisons are among the worst in the civilized world.

[geek tragedy]

50. So, they should just be asked pretty please with sugar on it

to not beat up old ladies anymore?

[Egalitarian Thug]

209. Yes, that's exactly what she's saying.

[HappyMe]

51. My sons have never robbed or beaten anyone.

There is no reason for me to send them anywhere to scare them.

Being poor and not having the best education doesn't excuse not knowing right from wrong. Worse yet, is knowing right from wrong and not giving a crap.

Not everyone that walks down Michigan Avenue is wealthy.

[sabrina 1]

200. Young people don't learn right from wrong in jail. Most civilized nations do not

use jail to scare children. The most successful programs when young people show signs of going down the wrong path are a combination of discipline and redirection, iow, rehabilitation rather than all punishment. Our system, thanks to the 'tough on crime' Republicans, is all about revenge and punishment. Since it has not worked, maybe it's time to try to think of better ways to create a better society.

Or we could just ignore it, complain when things like this happen, and just keep throwing people in jail for a while where they learn to be even better criminals. Our recidivism rates are among the highest in the civilized world. The goal should be to create productive citizens rather than create more criminals.

Poverty doesn't excuse not knowing right from wrong. We have wealthy Wall St. Bankers who don't know right from wrong either. I wonder why throwing THEM in jail for a while to scare them, is never even considered.

[octothorpe]

70. Hey Sabrina1, I'm curious what you think would be an appropriate action to take

with these people who assaulted innocent people. I'm not asking in a snarky way or anything, I'm curious what you think would be the best way to handle. Any sort of punishment?

[sabrina 1]

198. I don't know anything about them. My comments are about preventing

this kind of behavior.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

46. There have been more than two. There are two that have been reported.

As noted by the blogger who maintains Second City Cop

"All the local media outlets had to cover it - there were too many witnesses downtown to brush it under the carpet the way they did the entire summer of 2011 and early part of 2012. The Channel 2 website had over 3,500 comments at last count. National headlines were made everywhere."

http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

[Gidney N Cloyd]

21. The police showed up pretty quickly and handled things.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

65. Actually, they let most of them get away.

The system will issue wrist-slaps to the 28 who were arrested.

The cops didn't even pepper-spray them like Bloomberg's NY cops did to a mother with three kids all under the age of 5.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12526893

[Gidney N Cloyd]

68. Because most of them hadn't done much besides show up. And they apparently dispersed when told to.

[TwilightGardener]

52. I haven't paid much attention, but it seems like Chicago is like NYC in the 80's.

[SpartanDem]

59. Just watching that video all I can is say wow!!

Those little cretins need some fucking discipline. My parents would've kicked my ass for acting like that.

[Marr]

61. What a bizarre story. It's implied there was some sort coordination.

And apparently it's happened several times before.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

76. It started in 2011, but has not been covered by the MSM until now. There were too many

witnesses and too many complaints to the MSM about the MSM not covering such events for the latest one to be ignored.

One of the first gang attacks occurred in the loop and involved a doctors' convention. The MSM didn't cover it and otherwise became known when the physicians' group let it be known that they would not be returning and allow their doctors to put at risk for additional attacks.

[ieoeja]

147. It has been all over the fucking media in Chicago. Where are you getting this crazy shit?!?

You are spreading the rantings of some crazy paranoid nutjob(s).

[AngryOldDem]

254. Saw a story about how the NYPD was gearing up to fight this as well.

Apparently, this "wilding" has something to do with Easter, and it's happened before in New York.

Never heard of it.

[freshwest]

264. I think these are a variety of 'flash mobs' organized by social media use.

They appear to be spontaneous but they are individuals who meet online and arrange to be somewhere in such numbers that they overwhelm the police or victims. That's why there is now surveliance of the Facebook IM and Twitter messaging.

There was a riot in Canada a while back where people were twittering and uploading to youtube as they were breaking into places. There were so many police couldn't stop them and ended up just plowing through all of them, innocent and hoodlums. Many were arrested later from what they'd sent to friends bragging about it.

This has happened more than once in the USA in stores or public places. I suspect it's worldwide. Most likely these people didn't know each other, just decided to all meet and start up.

JMHO.

[octothorpe]

63. More than 300? That's crazy. That's a sign that something is seriously wrong

it's one thing when a few bad people get together and do shit like this, but 300+ people?

[slackmaster]

72. Yes, something is seriously wrong but nobody is willing to even talk about the core problem

Much less do anything about it.

[HiPointDem]

176. do tell us what the core problem is.

[slackmaster]

226. We can't discuss it here.

[HiPointDem]

230. wtf?

[slackmaster]

232. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[HiPointDem]

233. if you're going where i think you're going, not liking your drift

[Paladin]

260. Your instincts are sound. (nt)

[Enrique]

237. then we'll have to fill it in

the "core problem" is the black folks, and we "can't discuss it here" because the damn liberals will scream racism.

[Peter cotton]

69. Throw the book at every one of them.

[librechik]

75. hey, yeah, an assault weapon could have taken out all 300+ teens! (and everyone else)

If only one of those ladies on the CTA line had had an assault weapon with her... (assuming she could lift it) Episode over!

[Gidney N Cloyd]

79. Finally someone in this thread's got their thinkin' cap on!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

80. STRAWMAN. No one is making that argument other than you. Why isn't the truth good enough?

[librechik]

83. what? No one? Really? The answer is, we activists tend to seize on small everyday news items

to make a larger point. I know, everybody gets upset by the larger point, becasue it isn't in evidence. But I'm not a lawyer, I'm just an emotional person who wants the carnage to stop, and I am sensitive to current events. I know you take a different point from the incident. That's ok, and so is my point, right?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

102. What I find is that gun-controllers (or people-controller wannabes) regularly make straw-man

agruments.

Your claim "an assault weapon could have taken out all 300+ teens!," while pretending to believe that position is the position of those to whom you direct your animosity, is absolute bullshit.

[librechik]

115. I find that "controller" is a negative label

frequently applied by those most determined to control, to those whose position on issues they dislike.

[Hoyt]

169. It's obvious when those who promote more and more guns in public pounce on a topic like this.

[99Forever]

77. This one sure brought the authoritarians...

... to come running, screaming for more of the same Draconian style crap that got us here to begin with.

If turning being poor into a fucking crime worked to stop other crimes, we'd be crime free.

Here's the top 10 ways to minimize this kind of thing:

1)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

2)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

3)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

4)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

5)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

6)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

7)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

8)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

9)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

10)Decent paying jobs with benefits.

[geek tragedy]

81. These thugs weren't stealing to put food on the table.

They were terrorizing other people via physical violence because it was fun.

[99Forever]

85. You assume to know that how?

What the fuck do you actually know of the history of any of these ANGRY kids? Do you have any clue as to what they have faced that MADE them angry? Have YOU had to face the roadblocks they face EVERY day of their lives, just to survive?

Must be tiring to have to be so Morally Superior and perfect, that you can judge people without have ever dealt with, or even knowing the kind of problems they live with.

[geek tragedy]

87. I know as much as you do.

I never beat up a stranger for shits and giggles. Shit, I've never physically accosted anyone for any reason.

So, yeah, I consider myself morally superior to those who engage in physical violence against strangers for their own amusement.

Beating up strangers is not part of surviving. It's a character defect.

Violence is not inherent in poverty.

Do you know that these kids were poor, btw?

[99Forever]

93. You think these kids got pissed off...

... in a vacuum?

There's no use arguing with a closed mind.

Quite frankly, this is only the beginning. There are millions of desperate people in this nation, with more every day, the breakdown in civility is inevitable. And if you think Draconian authoritarian "crackdowns" will stem the tide of the oncoming shitstorm, you are living in a dreamworld. Buckle up, the this ride is going to get VERY bumpy.

[geek tragedy]

94. No, this is a bunch of stupid-ass violent punks

going out and engaging in physical violence because that's their idea of a good time.

They're not out protesting or doing anything to try to improve their communities.

They're beating up on strangers as a recreational activity.

And, the group of people this crowd tends to target are people in poor communities.

What percentage of those engaged in this mass violence do you suppose are attending school?

[richmwill]

108. Now, now- they're just "acting out their anger over being poor"...

Don't charge them with anything- have the judge give them a hug and an "I love you", and you'll see it work amazing wonders in their lives. (Now, when does my plane leave from Fantasy Land?)

[geek tragedy]

110. I guess the people who are urging

compassion and hugs for the criminals here would also favor the lack of police interest in arresting suspects who target other poor people as victims.

Actually, I'm gonna guess they would call that racist/discrimination. And they'd be right.

[KittyWampus]

91. You are the one who seems to feel a moral superiority… you are the one calling out

"Authoritarians".

[99Forever]

96. They are authoritarians, mam.

(Small "a", as it's not a formal political party, but a philosophy, methinks)

au·thor·i·tar·i·an
/əˌTHôriˈte(ə rēən/
Adjective
Favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
Noun
An authoritarian person.
Synonyms
authoritative - magisterial

If you see the word as an insult, perhaps you should consider why. Personally, I find the authoritarian philosophy to be an insult to human dignity.

[geek tragedy]

98. You disproved your own claim with that definition.

In this case, the "personal freedom" is the right to engage in violence towards strangers.

Which is not a freedom at all.

Sorry, fail. People who want criminal laws against violence enforced are not authoritarians, but rather civilized.

P.S. How would you respond to a gun nut who claims that firearm bans are an authoritarian restriction on personal freedom?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

104. Absolutely.

[HappyMe]

84. These kids weren't being Robin Hood types.

I know quite a few people that want decent paying jobs with benefits. Not a single one has gone out to rob and beat anybody.

[99Forever]

88. Who the fuck said they were "being Robin Hood types."

They are pissed off. They are desperate.

Guess what?

Desperate, pissed off people do desperate, pissed off things.

Is that so gawddamn hard to figure out?

[geek tragedy]

90. How do you know so much about their

motivations?

Do you think these 'desperate, pissed-off' kids are all attending school and busting their butts to get good grades, or are they dropouts etc?

[HappyMe]

92. How the hell do you know that

they are pissed off and desperate? You know about as much about those kids as any of us here do. Maybe not all the kids doing this were poor. Middle class and rich kids can be bullies too.

I refuse to excuse shitty behavior in anybody using the pathetic 'poor' excuse. Poor is one thing. Being an asshat thug is another.
Unless of course, you are assuming all poor kids are badly brought up.

Carry on with your Jean Valjean fantasy world.

[99Forever]

97. Do they seem happy to you?

Pleased with what life has given them?

Fulfilled with all of the options our society has laid at their feet?

[HappyMe]

100. Again, you don't know anything of the sort.

Sometimes people are just asshats. Sometimes, it's all about getting your shitty behavior on YouTube and being "famous".

Robbing and beating people doesn't get anybody anywhere in life, nor does it make you happy. You can be poor and know right from wrong.

Would it be okay with you if somebody robbed you, your mom, your love - just because they were 'unhappy'?

[99Forever]

116. There's no use in holding a conversation...

... if you insist on assigning positions to me I have never taken. It simply wastes both of our time and effort. I won't defend a POV I've never taken.

If you care to address it honestly and quit using that silly tactic, I'll continue. If not, that's okay too, we can just drop it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

212. Oh please, like they have any other tactics or desire to converse.

This is what the authoritarians have got. It's all they've got and it's all they've ever had. The saddest thing is that it is usually enough.

[Egalitarian Thug]

206. A literary reference that simultaneously demonstrates that you totally missed the point of

the work you referenced. Congratulations, Jeff Foxworthy is looking for you.

[elehhhhna]

145. coincidentally they all got pissed and desperate the first weekend of

spring break.



lol

[HiPointDem]

160. coincidentally, no pedestrians were attacked, though it was reported that way in the media.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

162. If so, then Andrew Holmes report from the Good Men Project is wrong. See post #161.

[HiPointDem]

166. yes, it probably is. since none of the people reportedly attacked by 300 black teens have come

forward to tell their stories.

andrew holmes, 'community activist,' is selling something. google him.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

168. How exactly do you know that "none of the people reportedly attacked by 300 black teens have come

forward to tell their stories"?

Did you just make that up?

[HiPointDem]

170. because they haven't been in the media accounts. duh. video.

http://chicagoist.com/2013/03/31/28_arrested_last_night_in_disturban.php

[elehhhhna]

172. a group of women on the "el" were grabbed and slapped

but whatever

[HiPointDem]

175. not by a gang of 300 black teens. but whatever. feel free to post the story about the women

in the el who were grabbed and slapped, though.

[sylvi]

213. LOL

It's sure more convenient for one to be able to schedule their spontaneous demonstrations of angst, isn't it?

[HiPointDem]

156. and neither did the people in this story. update!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2599106

[KittyWampus]

89. Authority in proper measure is essential to civilization. And you better face the fact

there are sub-cultures that glorify criminal behavior and abhor getting an education and wouldn't take a "decent paying job with benefits" or be able to hold down such a job if it was given to them.

[Egalitarian Thug]

134. The fact you must face is that authoritarianism creates those values.

With the exception of true psychopaths, human beings are not born this way, they are made. The more a society rewards this type of behaviour, the more of it the society gets.

Imposing universal regulation to address the actions of a tiny minority tends to alienate the majority.

[Skip Intro]

111. A few anti-responsibility excuse-makers too. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

113. Spoken like someone sitting behind a keyboard

who's never had their skull cracked by a thug.

[madrchsod]

95. it`s going to be a long summer in chicago

last year was pretty bad until the cops really cracked down or the thugs found some other thrill.
it`s time to put more cops on the streets in chicago

[JPZenger]

101. Upsetting... but it least it may make people pay attention to problems in other parts of the city

In many cities, including Chicago, much of the violence is Black-on-Black in African American neighborhoods. The people with power and influence don't pay too much attention to it. While pedestrian attacks in a prime part of Chicago are upsetting, maybe it will make more people pay attention to what is happening on the poor sides of town.

[geek tragedy]

105. And that's the thing. The people most victimized by

the goons who took part in this are poor people or small shop owners in poor neighborhoods, etc.

It winds up being a weird stalemate/truce between the criminals and the cops--so long as the criminals confine their violence to the poor areas of town, the cops won't do too much to get in their way. And, of course, when this shit happens in poor areas, there is a remarkable lack of witnesses, because of the whole 'stop snitchin' mentality.

[sabrina 1]

121. They are all victims of a greedy, corporate society that becomes less equal

each day. Remember the French? Those 'goons' eventually had enough and went about murdering everyone who they saw as the reason for their misery. The whole society broke down. THAT is what happens when inequality reaches the levels we are fast approaching.

And your solution is more violence.

Like it or not, it is a fact of life that when people have nothing to lose, when a society becomes so divided so unequally between the rich and the poor and the middle class is slowly disappearing, crime will increase.

The solution is to start creating a society that provides opportunities for all Americans, to provide jobs and education and to close down some of our prisons and build schools, to work to end violence as a policy, stop the illegal wars and spend that money on health care, on drug rehab which works far better than jail etc.

It's not a mystery why we have so many young people with no hope. We have mothers forced out of their homes to get to less than minimum wage jobs because we would rather give Welfare to the Wealthy than provide safe homes for the children of the poor.

I don't see any point in complaining about any of it anymore. We know what is wrong, but even some Democrats now are in favor of the policies that began the downward slide, Reagan policies.

[geek tragedy]

124. Who said I was advocating violence?

I'm talking about putting violent criminals in jail.

The US is nothing like 1788 France. We obviously need to provide more economic opportunity and to level the playing field.

We also need to put violent criminals in jail.

[sabrina 1]

129. France wasn't like 1788 France either until it was. It took a while, too bad when the signs

began to appear, the response was to throw people in jail which only made people more angry and more desperate.

Our prison system is violent, it is a system of violence, we don't do rehab, we punish people, pot smokers, whoever, we create violence and then complain about it.

Liberal ideas are the ones likely to change this culture of criminality from the top down, and to reduce the violence. Because the failed, knee-jerk right wing solution for everything, more violence, more punishment, certainly hasn't worked for far too many people.

[geek tragedy]

140. For which violent crimes do you oppose jail/prison time and for which

violent crimes do you support jail/prison time?

[sabrina 1]

173. I'm talking about preventing violent crime.

Doing so by spending money on this country rather than on Wars and bailing out corrupt Wall St. bankers costing this country trillions of dollars.

We do not sent violent criminals to jail if they are rich enough and the violence is on a grand enough scale. Eg, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al murdered maybe over one million innocent people, yet no one is even talking about sending them to jail.

When those who lied this country into war, who tortured and maimed untold numbers of human beings, those who robbed this country of trillions of dollars go to jail for their crimes, I guess I'll expect to see everyone punished when they commit crimes.

Meantime I'm for the prevention of crime by investing in young people and their future. If we do not, we should not be outraged when they end up committing crimes, we should be prepared for it, we should, if we were smart, not be surprised by it.

[99Forever]

143. Thanks Sabrina.

It's disheartening to see that there are supposed "Democrats" that can't seem to grasp that looking for the reasons that led to these incidences of public outrage and violence is not the same as making excuses for them. if I didn't know better, I would think i had gone to a hard right Republican site, judging from this thread. The "pull out my piece and gun 'em down or lock 'em up and throw away the key" mentality has about as much chance of solving our growing crime problem as Trickle Down Reagonomics did fixing our economy. (In fact, they are actually so entangled they feed off each other.)

It's pretty damn simple to me, kids with a good shot at a good job and a future, don't do this stuff. That such a basic concept even get questioned here, baffles me. Who the heck are these people? They damn sure aren't liberals or progressives.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

138. Not a chance.

Unless the Chicago pols and those connected with them can make a profit, it's not going to happen.

[moobu2]

112. Most of the problems were just

teens bumping into people on sidewalks and blocking traffic and a little fighting amongst themselves. Someone put the word out on twitter and it was like a flash mob thing. Get 300 teenagers together with nothing to do and stuff like this will happen.

[benld74]

119. In STL it has become known as the game Beatdown,,

numerous people have been attacked for no other reason than a game being played by a group with nothing better to do. Hospitalization, fear and a death has come from them.

[frazzled]

141. UPDATE: 42nd ward Alderman O'Reilly tells what really happened

This has not been reported accurately to date, so I wanted to post a portion of the email I just received from my alderman, whose district also contains that part of the Mag Mile:

I am writing to provide you with some additional information regarding the very disturbing incident that occurred at the intersection of Chicago and Michigan avenues on Saturday evening. Please know that I have already contacted the Chicago Police Department to request a detailed plan for the 2013 Warm Weather Season, to deter these incidents as the weather continues to improve.

(snip)

On Saturday evening, large groups of teenagers converged on the intersection of Chicago Avenue and Michigan Avenue. According to the Police Department, there were approximately 400 youth in the crowd, with roughly 50 police officers originally detailed to the area. This large crowd gathering was orchestrated via social media (Facebook and Twitter) messaging, predominantly by teenagers and some individuals in their early 20's.

As the Police Department witnessed the crowd growing and becoming increasingly volatile, the Commander of the 18th District redeployed additional police resources from other areas of the District to Michigan Avenue. There was a substantial surge in police presence at this location when fighting finally broke out between different groups of teens in the larger crowd.

The Police Department reported that there were no robberies during the incident, and the multiple battery charges and arrests were fights that broke out between rival groups of teenagers in the large crowd that assembled at this location. The Police reported a few pedestrians received minor injuries when the youth were fleeing the Police and bumped into them on the sidewalk - but no pedestrians were targeted by the crowd.

Thanks to the swift response from the Chicago Police Department, a total of 29 arrests were made downtown on Saturday evening.

(snip)

I want to thank the brave men and women of the 18th and 1st Police Districts for their excellent police work on Saturday evening - aggressively managing this very large, volatile crowd of teenagers. They reacted quickly and professionally in response to this incident, and I am truly grateful for their service.

Unfortunately, a swift, professional response to these incidents is not enough. We need increased police presence and visibility in the Central Business District during the warm weather to prevent these events from occurring in the first place.

I'm not sure I want massive police presence in that area, but it's a major economic and tourist engine in this city, so I can understand why this needs to be addressed in a more proactive, rather than reactive, way.


NOTE: To any persons in this thread who advocate citizens being armed, please note that it would be an utter tragedy if such armed citizens took aimed at these kids who were not threatening them directly in any way. Leave this to the well-trained members of our police force, who did a great job dissipating the incident with a relatively small number of arrests and no violence.

[geek tragedy]

149. is that "what really happened" or is it

"what business owners and tourism promoters want people to believe happened?"

[frazzled]

151. My alderman is pretty trustworthy, and a straight shooter

More trustworthy than the sensationalist local news media, at least. So I'm choosing to believe that this is what the police reports are saying. It doesn't make it any more pleasant to be downtown in the midst of 400 fighting teenagers.

This is still a super serious issue, and it's coming to a city near you (if it hasn't already). My understanding is that it is largely linked to some gang initiation rites. It's kids behaving badly, very badly. And it needs to be stopped. But we need to understand it, not sensationalize it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

161. Should somebody other than an Alderman be believed?

Such as a community activist Andrew Holmes from the Good Men Project:

"community activist Andrew Holmes, who happened to be shopping with a relative in the upscale retail district, described a scene in which hundreds of young people misbehaved, with some of them harassing and attacking people on the street.

“They assaulted a Chicago police officer who was on a mounted horse. And all of a sudden, they assaulted the citizens walking the streets – just normal citizens shopping, enjoying the weather,” Holmes told CBS 2’s Chris Martinez.

http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

[HiPointDem]

163. like maybe the police?

"The Police Department reported that there were no robberies during the incident, and the multiple battery charges and arrests were fights that broke out between rival groups of teenagers in the large crowd that assembled at this location.

The Police reported a few pedestrians received minor injuries when the youth were fleeing the Police and bumped into them on the sidewalk - but no pedestrians were targeted by the crowd."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

167. Actually, that is the exact opposite of what some cops have been reporting, including

the one who maintains the blog site Second City Cop.
http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/

He reported that the police were called from at least 4 districts.

He also reported that

"They assaulted a Chicago police officer who was on a mounted horse. And all of a sudden, they assaulted the citizens walking the streets – just normal citizens shopping, enjoying the weather,” Holmes told CBS 2’s Chris Martinez. “I caution those parents if their child has been arrested … You need to think about your child. Just don’t say the Chicago police picked on your child, when we watched all the assault going on, especially by teen women.”

[HiPointDem]

171. second city cop is a retired blogger.

http://www.blogger.com/profile/07892236330376584283


and the only reports that say that shoppers were randomly targeted & attacked seem to be those who quote the same 'community activist'.

there's no video of these random attacks on pedestrians and none have come forward.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

186. This isn't inconsistent with a scenario of cops coming in for general crowd control and >>>

>>>and shagging the kids toward the Red line.

[Skip Intro]

208. Would you mind posting a link to that?

I googled the first few words in quotes and got no exact matches.

Thanks.

[HiPointDem]

219. it's from the alderman's email in post 141.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

152. Thanks for this. Given the witness accounts in the video,this version of the story seems about right

[Skip Intro]

201. "dozens of groups began randomly attacking pedestrians"

NBC News reporting as of 8:11 CDT update.

From the article linked in the OP.

My guess is the media is more accurate.

[HiPointDem]

257. my guess is they're not. since the only persons i've seen who were attacked or robbed was

someone in a subway.

my guess is the ptb want to drum up support for more severe policing.

[Robb]

177. This thread has turned into quite the embarrassment, DU.

[Starry Messenger]

183. Several of the responses mirror those at our opposite number at FR.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence though.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3002714/posts

To: Signalman
They knew nobody would have a gun to defend themselves.


20 posted on 3/31/2013 2:30:30 PM by Flightdeck (My four children have been robbed)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

[Skip Intro]

203. How's that? nt

[Gidney N Cloyd]

215. Agreed.

[Ikonoklast]

222. Actually, many of the responses were quite predictabe

Only a few acknowledged what actually happened.


If only a couple of dozen of those marauding thugs who robbed and murdered thousands of innocent shoppers, and then torched and burned half the city of Chicago to the ground had just caught a bullet fired from an Armed Righteous Citizen...

[HiPointDem]

231. what? thousands of shoppers were robbed and murdered?

[Renew Deal]

204. Wild in the streets

[Dawson Leery]

207. Most of these thugs will have wasted lives.

[graham4anything]

210. I remember the reports of the fake riots during Katrina and the denial of Danzinger Bride

during Katrina, it was only the vigilantes on Danzinger Bridge that shot and killed unarmed, tired, hungry, with no drinking water and there were ZERO riots

People actually believed there were riots in Katrina.

Only shootings were done by vigilantes on Danzinger Bridge that shot to kill anyone black who just wanted to step on dry land get a major prison sentence.

[NutmegYankee]

250. They weren't vigilantes, they were NOPD police.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings

[Quantess]

253. I'm sure they're all a bunch of nice kids, really.

[AngryOldDem]

255. Just misunderstood.

Cue "Dear Officer Krupke" from West Side Story.

[Quantess]

258. I was being sarcastic.

But, can you believe I haven't seen West Side Story?

[AngryOldDem]

267. I know you were.

So was I...Sorry if it came across wrong.

I haven't seen West Side Story on stage, but the movie is excellent. Long, but excellent.

Several years ago, while on a trip to England, I saw a production of Romeo and Juliet that was done in a West Side Story motif with rock band, etc...very interesting. I liked it a lot. Not sure what my older travel companions thought of it, though.

[Nye Bevan]

270. My heart bleeds for those poor, misunderstood teenagers,

driven by desperate economic circumstances to attack pedestrians as well as women on the train.

Shame on the authoritian DUers who want these youngsters to be prosecuted.