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H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:11 PM Jan 2020

Life with the Liars

“Washington is deeply frustrating because so many of the positions politicians hold are a product of ephemeral self-interest. They reverse themselves for themselves, all the time.”
-- Ari Melber


For the sake of this conversation, I shall focus strictly upon republican politicians. Though not all Democrats in our nation's history have been without fault, the current crises we face nationally and internationally are the sole property of the republican party. One crisis that is particularly glaring today is described accurately by Ari Melber's above quote.

Republicans of late have displayed a remarkable ability to “reverse themselves” in two areas of interest: relationships with other republicans, and with fundamental republican principles. There is, of course, significant if not total overlap with both. It is much in the model of the “flexibility principle” found in accounting information systems. Republican values are as flexible as fundamental christian values in our society, as well.

The vulgarian president is best known as a pathological liar, without principles, who will throw any friend or associate under the bus if he believes it suits his immediate needs. When Trump first entered the republican primaries, much of the media did not take him seriously. Other candidates and party leaders considered him a joke.

As Trump's campaign began to rapidly metastasize within the bowels of the party, more than a few republicans would begin to attack him publicly. Not all were presidential candidates – Rep. Gym Jordan spoke of the problems in the environment that spawned him, and Senator John Thune demanded that Trump be removed from the ticket, and replaced with Mike Pence.

Among the candidates that spoke ill of Trump in the primaries were Ted Cruz, Chris Christie, Rand Paul, Jeb Bush, and Rick Perry. Christie was soon kissing candidate Trump's ass, seeking a position in the Trump administration, before again reversing himself, and speaking about Trump's ignorance and assorted weaknesses. Cruz, Perry, Paul, and Perry went from party watch dogs to presidential poodles, and remain so. Only Jeb hasn't praised Trump, though he as quietly faded out of public view.

Yet no one has illustrated the shallowness of today's republican party than Lindsey Graham. During the primary season, Graham used what he considered to be “fighting words,” calling Trump a jackass and a kook. Trump survived this sad attempt at viciousness, but Lindsey's self-respect did not. Poor Senator Graham has been transformed by Trump's gravity into a eunuch golf partner.

When human beings such as these are willing betray their values for a rarely comfortable role as Trump's foot warmers, they are hoping that the president will never throw them under the bus. They've seen what's happened to people in his administration. They remember Michael Cohen, and they see what is happening to Lev Parnas. This is especially true for Rand Paul and Lindsey Graham, as the impeachment trial begins.

The image of a red-faced Lindsey – during the Kavanaugh hearing – suggests that he takes his official role as Trump's anal cellulitis seriously. Paul actually has expressed some disagreement with the administration's assassinating the Iranian general. Thus, there is a possibility that he might dare to vote with a few other republicans to hear witnesses during the trial. Probably not, but it is possible.

It seems unlikely to me that Lev Parnas will be called to testify, if witnesses are called. But it would be great if he was, and Democrats used texts showing Parnas's communications with Jay Sekulow.

But the most important potential witness is still John Bolton. The former ambassador is the neoconservative blend of Dr. Strangelove, General Ripper, and Major Kong, who once believed that his brilliance would allow him to convince Trump of the ultimate truth of his world view. Yet his time in the administration was acrimonious at very best, and in time led to Bolton's leaving. Trump, as always, claimed he fired John, while Bolton insisted he quit.

Since then, we have learned that Bolton quit because of his opposition to Trump's corrupt Ukraine operation. He called this a “drug deal.” Then it was announced that Bolton was writing a “tell-all” book about his experiences in the White House. Bolton flirted with testifying before the House committees investigating the Ukraine scandal, but ended up working on his book instead.

Two things are important to keep in mind. First, the House is controlled by Democrats, while the Senate is controlled by republicans. This appears to be one reason that Bolton is now willing to testify. The second is that Bolton is reportedly almost finished putting the final touches on his book, which is expected to be released around the time of the republican national convention.

Al Sharpton recently pointed out that Bolton would not tell a different story on the witness stand than the one in his book. More, Sharpton noted that no publisher would pay as much as Bolton is getting, for a book that praises the president, and says the infamous phone call was “perfect.” Instead, both the book and potential testimony will expose Trump's guilt ….and throw others under the bus.

Would Bolton's testimony influence the trial's outcome? The odds are against there being enough votes to convict Trump, but it remains the best chance we have got. I'm glad the Democratic Party is willing to play this hand, and hope they can deal Bolton in.

Peace,
H2O Man

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Life with the Liars (Original Post) H2O Man Jan 2020 OP
Several possible scenarios for the next several months coeur_de_lion Jan 2020 #1
I think that H2O Man Jan 2020 #4
Frankly I Think, & Have For The Many Weeks The Conversation Has Continued Me. Jan 2020 #2
I will agree H2O Man Jan 2020 #5
John Bolton is pompous enough and vindictive enough GeorgiaPeanut Jan 2020 #3
Exactly. H2O Man Jan 2020 #6
Fingers Crossed Me. Jan 2020 #7
The way Bolton played the cat and mouse game with Trump is beautiful DenverJared Jan 2020 #8
That would be sublime coeur_de_lion Jan 2020 #9
Right. H2O Man Jan 2020 #14
This is why from the beginning of this imbroglio ChubbyStar Jan 2020 #31
Kicking this Hekate Jan 2020 #10
Thank you! H2O Man Jan 2020 #15
Bolton's "tell all" told very little, as such books have to be thoroughly vetted before publication Warpy Jan 2020 #11
I haven't seen H2O Man Jan 2020 #17
I think John Bolton will be true to himself lunatica Jan 2020 #12
That's a well reasoned argument for Bolton testimony to be positive for the good guys coeur_de_lion Jan 2020 #16
If they fight each other it is to our advantage. lunatica Jan 2020 #21
From your mouth to God's ears! n/t coeur_de_lion Jan 2020 #23
Big organizations which are well organized lunatica Jan 2020 #24
See my post above to H2O ChubbyStar Jan 2020 #32
Well said. H2O Man Jan 2020 #18
You make a great point. Bolton knows what Putin's agenda is lunatica Jan 2020 #20
Yep. H2O Man Jan 2020 #22
I think it is imperative that the Democrats take back the Senate. kentuck Jan 2020 #13
Definitely! H2O Man Jan 2020 #19
I think the Democrats have done about all they can do to warn the people. kentuck Jan 2020 #30
⭐️⭐️⭐️K&R⭐️⭐️⭐️ spanone Jan 2020 #25
Thank you! H2O Man Jan 2020 #27
Excellent read malaise Jan 2020 #26
Thanks! H2O Man Jan 2020 #28
Barr is another one malaise Jan 2020 #33
Recommended, and well argued. guillaumeb Jan 2020 #29

coeur_de_lion

(3,676 posts)
1. Several possible scenarios for the next several months
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:49 PM
Jan 2020

1) he’s impeached and removed
2) he will resign because it is obvious he's about to be impeached -- but with a non-prosecution agreement
3) Senate votes to acquit then we vote him out in November
4) he has a real health crisis like a stroke or heart attack - or even a fake health crisis to justify leaving office

Scenario 3 is scary to me because we've seen how as soon as Mueller testified, he got right on the phone with Zelensky to get the Ukraine bribery scheme moving. So if Senate acquits him he will go absolutely apeshit. He will burn the country down just for fun. The awful shit we've seen so far will be like nothing.

However since I'm feeling optimistic for a change I believe scenario 2 is the most likely.

His narcissistic pride won't allow him to accept being impeached. When it becomes obvious there will be witnesses and the ugly truth will come out even more than it has he will leave rather than face the shame.

What do you think?

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
4. I think that
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 12:13 AM
Jan 2020

those are all four possibilities.

I always like to study two things (as you know): systems and process. We know that the republican party, as a system, has been corrupted. Not that it wasn't before Trump, but it has become far more corrupt in the sense of not even pretending to be invested in what were "republican values" for a half-century. So that brings us to process.

We do not know the exact process the trial will take. But there is the potential for it to deliver explosive issues that are not widely known at this time. I'd include Bolton's meetings with Trump and others. If that happens, and the republican see the Trump dam breached, a small trickle will soon become a flooded creek.

If that happens, we will see if Trump looks for a way out. He is a coward, and never engages in a fair fight.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
2. Frankly I Think, & Have For The Many Weeks The Conversation Has Continued
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:52 PM
Jan 2020

That Bolton is a pig in a poke and those who are counting on him will be sadly disappointed just as they have been by Mattis, Barr, Tillerson and sadly, Mueller. All those they thought would come to the aid of the country.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
5. I will agree
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 12:17 AM
Jan 2020

that Bolton is a pig. But all we need from him is testimony about two things. First, to confirm what Fiona Hill testified about, and second, to tell about his individual and group conversations with Trump where he told the president why he had to release the money. If Bolton does this, of course, he will still be a swine.

 

GeorgiaPeanut

(360 posts)
3. John Bolton is pompous enough and vindictive enough
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:55 PM
Jan 2020

to find the right moment to shoot Trump through his heart.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
6. Exactly.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 12:19 AM
Jan 2020

I'm glad that you know about the features of Bolton's personality that will come into play. Thank you!

 

DenverJared

(457 posts)
8. The way Bolton played the cat and mouse game with Trump is beautiful
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 12:24 AM
Jan 2020

Bolton must know that the coup de gras could not be delivered in the house but when he delivers it in the senate, many republicans won't be able to escape convicting the dotard.

Bolton gets his last laugh, sells a lot more books and goes down in history as the trump-killer. His testifying in the senate cannot come back to haunt him.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
14. Right.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 01:48 PM
Jan 2020

While Bolton is a repulsive person, his character is constant. When he looks in a mirror, he sees the ultimate neoconservative warrior. And that is distinct from the Trumpites, who are the second generation mutation of the Tea Party.

ChubbyStar

(3,191 posts)
31. This is why from the beginning of this imbroglio
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 11:53 PM
Jan 2020

or shit storm as the rest of us say, I scrutinized the major players and looked at their stakes, any decent gambler knows what their opponent has wagered and fucking why, and I pegged Bolton as the ultimate holder of the royal flush. He is gonna TALK, not because he has virtue, hell no, he is gonna talk because his 46-1 longshot just hit the wire.

Warpy

(111,175 posts)
11. Bolton's "tell all" told very little, as such books have to be thoroughly vetted before publication
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:45 AM
Jan 2020

so don't expect much from his testimony, There will be no new revelations and no fireworks.

One thing I do expect out of the Senate next week is "testimony" consisting of partisan grandstanding by Republicans who basically want a dictator because that's what the men who bought them want. They will try to avoid documentation and actual witness testimony and they will be hoping that people are too stupid to tell the difference.

I am hoping they are wrong about that, but it's rather a faint hope. I know the Democratic Party, the House of Representatives, and Pelosi herself will be on trial in the Senate, not the impeached president. The only mention of him will be in effusive Republican praise.

I don't know if I'll be able to stomach listening to much of it. To say I'm sickened by what's been going on over the last few years is a gross understatement. I will be paying a great deal of attention to overheard conversation afterward. Those will tell the tale more than grandstanding Republicans or lapdog media will.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
17. I haven't seen
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:00 PM
Jan 2020

any reports on specifics regarding Bolton's book. I suspect that very few people know what is in it, though many are speculating. In general, I agree that Bolton's previous works are indeed boring. He may be the only person fascinated by what he has had to say.

We won't hear what the republican Senators have to say, of course, but will only learn the outcome per the rules they go by. We will be subjected to listening to Trump's legal team, should we opt to watch the proceedings that are televised. But even between and after hearings, Mitch is trying to shield the republicans from the press.

While I think it is most likely that the republicans will hold against conviction, I will enjoy watching history unfold.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
12. I think John Bolton will be true to himself
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 03:09 AM
Jan 2020

He is not a pleasant man, even in his private life. He is a Jingoistic, egotistical and aggressive bully who wants to go to war because he wants the United States to be the military top dog. Before he left, in spite of being sidelined by Trump he did some damage to the UN which he has always hated. He pulled the US out of the UN Human Rights Council and put a visa ban on the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court and sought to block US funding for key UN programs.

I think Bolton is too smart and too mean to allow Trump to have the last word. He’s been baiting Trump with his coming book just like he’s been baiting us. He is adamant that he quit and wasn’t fired. He’s a proud prick and I believe he will not let Trump get the last word. He will get even. I’m sure he’ll claim it will be out of patriotism, but it will be for revenge.

And it’s surely occurred to him that if he creates anti Trump controversy during this trial it will really boost his book sales. People will want to know more of what he has to say. If he kisses Trump’s ass he’s just another toady no one respects.

I’m betting on Bolton’s massive ego to come out front and center to deal a death blow to Trump. in the end it will boost his book sales.

coeur_de_lion

(3,676 posts)
16. That's a well reasoned argument for Bolton testimony to be positive for the good guys
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 01:59 PM
Jan 2020

I hope you're right with all my heart.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
21. If they fight each other it is to our advantage.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:17 PM
Jan 2020

Bolton has the potential to blow up the Republican Party. If nothing else they know how to hold the line. He could walk in and break that line.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
24. Big organizations which are well organized
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 08:37 PM
Jan 2020

like the Republican Party are way too hard to destroy from outside. Even now when all that corruption shows they’re rotten to the core they stand together in solidarity no matter what.

A Behemoth like that can usually only be brought down from within. I think Bolton could do it. The question, of course, is will he do it.

ChubbyStar

(3,191 posts)
32. See my post above to H2O
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 12:13 AM
Jan 2020

I concur with you, yet no matter what these vile hell creatures with their smirking and getting greasy together, will stand down because they are too primitive to understand. They stand with the prime ape because they think they can be him one day. A toe fungus is all we need. Bolton is that fungus. He and his moustache will fuck the Donald.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
18. Well said.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:04 PM
Jan 2020

If he testifies -- and that remains a big "if" -- Bolton will surely be asked to confirm or deny what Fiona testified to. And about his meetings with Trump, in which he outlined why it was a serious error to withhold the money from Ukraine. Unlike Trump, Bolton has a deep dislike of Russia and Putin.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
20. You make a great point. Bolton knows what Putin's agenda is
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:14 PM
Jan 2020

which is to be the one Superpower left standing. But that also happens to be Bolton’s agenda for the United States. I imagine he sees Trump as giving the entire store away to Putin.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
22. Yep.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:25 PM
Jan 2020

Some of our friends question if Bolton might be tempted to be supportive of Trump due to the tension with Iran. Now, as a neoconservative, Bolton has long hated Iran. He has always advocated destabilizing Iran, including by secretly sending special forces and mercenaries in. And to unite our allies in the effort, recognizing that Russia will oppose that effort against Iran.

Trump has done none of this, but more of the opposite. There was the option of killing the Iranian general in a manner that the US could deny any responsibility for. That has been on the table for at least 15 years. But there were good reasons not to do so, much less kill him and take credit for it.

Trump is uniting our allies, but not to back his utterly stupid agenda. For they know his "agenda" includes making Putin happy, and seeking instant gratification while ignoring intelligence. As you note, Bolton -- like the rest of the world community -- sees that Putin is pulling the puppet strings.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
19. Definitely!
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 02:06 PM
Jan 2020

We've got to keep our eyes on the prize. There will surely be some temporary disappointments between now and November, but we must not become discouraged. As Spinoza said, "all noble things are as difficult as they are rare."

kentuck

(111,056 posts)
30. I think the Democrats have done about all they can do to warn the people.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 11:41 PM
Jan 2020

It does not make one feel good to rely on Republicans.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
27. Thank you!
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 09:31 PM
Jan 2020

To take a break from government scandals, I've been old films of the congressional hearings on the Iran-Contra business. I've got North's top aide, Robert Owen, now. For some reason, I had not previously connected him in my mind with recent times ....but then remembered he was connected these days with Erik Prince.

That reinforces my belief that if we do not hold crooks like him responsible, they simply go on to the next criminal enterprise, the next scandal.

malaise

(268,729 posts)
26. Excellent read
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 09:20 PM
Jan 2020

They believe nothing except maintaining white male privilege, controlling power, and accumulating wealth by any means necessary.

H2O Man

(73,513 posts)
28. Thanks!
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 09:34 PM
Jan 2020

If you get a chance, read post #27. With today's snow storm, I've been watching old Iran-Contra hearings. Like a bad penny, certain people keep turning up in scandal after scandal. Not only was Robert Owen a top player in Iran-Contra, but he remains active in "international security." Business partnership with Erik Price. Oversaw investments in Ukraine.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. Recommended, and well argued.
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 09:51 PM
Jan 2020

I have said this here, and elsewhere, but I will repeat it now.

The GOP is not really a political party, in the classic sense of it. It is a lobbying group for the very rich. The only principles for the GOP are catering to the interests of the rich, and remaining in control.

The GOP strategists know their audience, and this knowledge is what convinces them to use certain appeals to family values, and claims to represent a moral majority, but all of this is merely camouflage to disguise the fact that for the GOP, making the rich even richer is the only real goal. And as you noted, GOP politicians will abandon any positions if it is required to serve the interest of retaining power.

So the GOP can claim to be concerned about balanced budgets even as they pass tax cuts for the rich that inevitably increase the debt and the deficit.

The GOP can claim to be concerned about the sanctity of life even as they start wars to ensure the re-election of Bush Jr.

The GOP claims to be the Party of law and order even as they break the law by suppressing votes and preventing voters from voting. And this law and order Party has no problem with protecting Trump from any oversight for his many crimes.

Again, an excellent piece.

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