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H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 10:54 PM Dec 2019

The Turtle & the Salmon

“Congress was right in not limiting, by its reconstruction acts, the right of suffrage to whites; but wrong in the exclusion from suffrage of certain classes of citizens and all unable to take its prescribed retrospective oath, and wrong also in the establishment of despotic military governments for the States and in authorizing military commissions for the trial of civilians in time of peace. There should have been as little military government as possible; no military commissions; no classes excluded from suffrage; and no oath except one of faithful obedience and support to the Constitution and laws, and of sincere attachment to the constitutional Government of the United States. “
Salmon Portland Chase, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court


Chief Justice John Roberts is said to be preparing for the impeachment trial of Donald Trump. This includes reviewing the rules and traditions of the Senate, it also involves studying the role of the Chief Justice in the two previous trials of US presidents. Let's take a stroll back in American history, and see two very different examples that Chief Justice Roberts is considering.

President Bill Clinton was impeached in late 1998, and his Senate trial was held between January 7 and February 22, 1999. It has been documented that the outcome had been agreed to by party leaders before the trial started. Hence, Chief Justice William Rehnquist accurately sums up his role in this quote from a letter to his friend: “I did nothing in particular, and did it very well.”

Providing irrefutable evidence that a Chief Justice can be a petty brat, Rehnquist also wrote, “...the trial is in one sense an unwelcome burden …..I have been relieved of none of my duties here at the court.” In 1999, he told Senators that, “"I underwent the sort of culture shock that naturally occurs when one moves from the very structured environment of the Supreme Court to what I shall call, for want of a better phrase, the more freeform environment of the Senate." These quotes are taken from the following article:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/william-rehnquist-impeachment-trial-senate/index.html

That is one potential. It is interesting to compare this to the role of Chief Justice Salmon Chase one hundred thirty one years earlier. I've been looking at Chase's role in the impeachment trial, and some of his career. There is not much about him in the books on impeachment that I started collecting in 1974. So I looked through some other history books, and have found some. I plan to do more research on the internet.

Chase was recognized as a liberal in those times. He was experienced in serving in both of the other branches of the federal government, as a senator and as President Lincoln's Treasury Secretary. He had also served as a Governor. His interest in political parties seemed fluid – in large part because he wanted to become president – and there are mentions of him being a Democrat, before helping to form the Free Soil Party, and eventually a republican.

In his earlier years of practicing law, Chase was an outspoken opponent of Slavery. He represented “run-away slaves” in northern courts. He advocated that all people had the right to vote, no matter their sex or race. He sounds like the complete opposite of Rehnquist.

During the trial of President Andrew Johnson, Chase played an active role in determining what evidence – including witnesses – could or could not be introduced in the trial. He also ruled on a number of procedural issues. He refused to allow senators to turn the trial into a circus. A number of senators were unhappy with Chief Justice Chase during the trial, but knew he would walk out if they didn't honor his rulings. Yet, history tends to indicate that the senators reached the correct verdict. Hence, Chase's role can be viewed as setting precedents that Roberts can and should follow.

At this point in time, we can only speculate if Roberts will conduct his role like Rehnquist, like Chase, or somewhere in the middle. Yet it could be his role that decides the eventual outcome of the trial. If John Bolton testifies -- or not – will be a huge factor in determining the outcome. Hopefully the decision on if Bolton testifies isn't allowed to be decided by Mitch McConnell. If the Democrats can't get four republicans to joing them on this, Roberts will do the right thing.

Peace,
H2O Man

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Turtle & the Salmon (Original Post) H2O Man Dec 2019 OP
KR Me. Dec 2019 #1
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #2
Giving me something to think about coeur_de_lion Dec 2019 #3
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #5
Sgt. Pepper J. Roberts Kid Berwyn Dec 2019 #4
Roberts was a H2O Man Dec 2019 #7
I do not believe Roberts will be a wallflower in the "trial"... kentuck Dec 2019 #6
I tend to agree. H2O Man Dec 2019 #9
THIS malaise Dec 2019 #8
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2019 #10
One of the great poets of all time malaise Dec 2019 #11
Yes, thanks! H2O Man Dec 2019 #12
Got it -how fabulous malaise Dec 2019 #13

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
5. Thank you!
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 11:33 AM
Dec 2019

I am fully confident that 2020 will be an outstanding year for the Democratic Party, and a truly historic year for democracy.

Kid Berwyn

(14,795 posts)
4. Sgt. Pepper J. Roberts
Mon Dec 30, 2019, 11:13 PM
Dec 2019
Roberts & the 'Apex of Presidential Power'

By Nat Parry
September 6, 2005

EXCERPT...

In the 1980s, Roberts also provided legal advice to the Reagan administration on how to pick its way around the legal obstacles erected by Congress to limit military and other assistance to the Nicaraguan contra rebels who were fighting to overthrow Nicaragua’s leftist Sandinista government.

SNIP…

Conflict of Interest

Regarding the Hamdan case, Roberts also saw no impropriety in his simultaneous interviewing with senior administration officials for a life-time job on the Supreme Court and his judging of a case in which Bush was a defendant.

On April 1, Roberts was interviewed by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who had formulated many of the arguments for the “apex of presidential power,” including Bush’s right to override anti-torture laws.

Other interviews with Roberts were conducted by Vice President Dick Cheney; White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card; White House legal counsel Harriet Miers; Bush’s chief political strategist Karl Rove; and Cheney’s chief of staff Lewis Libby.

CONTINUED…

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/090605.html

PS: It is my hope, as well, that, despite the record, the guy finds the Constitution matters more than all the property in Siberia.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
7. Roberts was a
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 11:55 AM
Dec 2019

terrible player in the Reagan-Bush era, providing the most bizarre of legal advice. His history, as you noted here, is exactly why so many of us were opposed to his being on the USSC at all, let alone as Chief Justice.

Democracy has been burned in recent times by some of the left-overs from that era, most notably Barr. Thus, it is important to not be fooled into only thinking Roberts "isn't bad" compared to Barr when evaluating Roberts. He has to be viewed as an individual.

However, it is true that Barr has always believed that the executive branch is superior to the other two, and has acted accordingly. Roberts, unlike Barr, has had enough time in the judicial branch that he may have regained a sense of the equallity of the three branches. In this case, he will have the opportunity to show if he is, like Barr, still stuck in his past, or if he has come to honor the Constitution.

As I noted in the OP, we can only speculate at this time. And hope for the best.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
9. I tend to agree.
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 11:56 AM
Dec 2019

Hopefully, he recognizes the ultimate significance of the impeachment trial, and acts accordingly.

malaise

(268,693 posts)
8. THIS
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 11:56 AM
Dec 2019

Yet it could be his role that decides the eventual outcome of the trial. If John Bolton testifies -- or not – will be a huge factor in determining the outcome. Hopefully the decision on if Bolton testifies isn't allowed to be decided by Mitch McConnell. If the Democrats can't get four republicans to joing them on this, Roberts will do the right thing.
=====================
Yes this is my hope too because I am a Beautiful Dreamer full of hope


































H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
10. Thanks!
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 12:00 PM
Dec 2019

To paraphrase a great poet: You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. Let's convict Trump, it'll be a lot of fun.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
12. Yes, thanks!
Tue Dec 31, 2019, 12:06 PM
Dec 2019

In my response, I noted some "ancient history" you might find interesting.

My older son is going to help me record some unreleased Lennon for my normal brother tomorrow. In this case, of course, "normal" is but relatively speaking.

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