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H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 10:00 AM Jul 2019

A Modest Proposal


“I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is, in the present deplorable state of the kingdom, a very great additional grievance.”
– Jonathan Swift; A Modest Proposal; 1729


I attended the funeral of one of my cousins this weekend. He was 88, and in poor health, including suffering from dementia. One of the things I will remember the most about him was that while running the 1960 Democratic headquarters in this county, local police gave him the only six tickets he ever got, on consecutive weekends. “We don't want your type here,” they told him each and every time.

His son gave me a family heirloom – a three gallon whiskey jug with the family name, from when my great grandfather's brother was a major bootlegger in western New York. Uncle Tom had a series of hardware stores that fronted for the family's primary business. I wish my father was alive to see it, though he would complain that it is empty.

Tom was among the family members that came to the US at the time known as “an Gorta Mor,” or the Great Starvation. It is also called “the potato famine” by those unfamiliar with the actual history, in which the Old Sod produced record amounts of other crops and meats, the vast majority of which were exported by “absentee landlords.”

A few of Tom's sisters remained in and around New York City. He moved to upstate New York, where other family members had taken up farming, as well as working on the canals and then railroads. Some, like Tom's brother Patrick, had trades – he was a marble-cutter – that were sought after. Pat was a “boomer,” and went west; I have the photograph, with his hand-written note to a sister on the back, from when he ventured out, following the new railroads as they were constructed.

My grandfather came to the US in the late 1870s, among the last waves of our extended family. Those already here had helped finance the trip, and had things set up for each family unit that arrived. An interesting thing, at least in my opinion, is that after saving up, and/or attending college or learning a trade, quite a few family members moved back to Ireland. They were able to buy properties that had previously been owned by our family, but were stolen by the invaders who later starved our people.

By the time my father was born, the extended family in the US had a doctor, a lawyer, a university professor, union leaders, detectives, military veterans, and a construction company owner. It wasn't that they were not confronted with the hatred of Irish Catholics – they certainly were, but they leveled the playing field. By the time I was a youngster, and my cousin was getting ticketed for campaigning for JFK, the neighborhood kids where my father built our house were insulting my siblings and I about being followers of the pope. I had no idea who or what the pope was. After we leveled those kids a few times on our playing fields, we all became friends.

I think about that, when I consider what the federal government is doing to the human beings from Central America that seek refuge in this country. They are attempting to come to this country for the same reasons my family came from Ireland. I recently saw an interview with the Dalai Lama, where he noted that immigrants are looking in part for the education and job skills that will allow them to eventually return to their homelands, and I recognize that dynamic from my own family history.

It takes a special level of perverse cruelty to put children in cages. That type of inhumanity leads to denying them toothpaste, tooth brushes, soap, and food that is not dissimilar to starving the native population of Ireland, or any of the other extreme examples of man's inhumanity to man. It may be true that it is improper to compare Trump to Hitler, at least yet. So I'll go back to when I was a child, and compare him to the stories I heard in church about Herod.

Somehow, this madness must stop. Obviously, Trump and his ilk aren't going to stop it on their own. And we really cannot wait until November of 2020 to start leveling the playing field. A growing number of our elected representatives are in favor of impeachment proceedings. Others believe that the public isn't invested in that yet. We are the public. It's time that we send a clear signal to them that we are prepared to do the hard work necessary to level the field.

Peace,
H2O Man
32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A Modest Proposal (Original Post) H2O Man Jul 2019 OP
But there is a difference.......... MyOwnPeace Jul 2019 #1
I was just thinking about that. Delmette2.0 Jul 2019 #3
True fact. H2O Man Jul 2019 #7
Much of my family came from County Cork. panader0 Jul 2019 #2
Canton, NY H2O Man Jul 2019 #8
My mother made the papers when she swam the St Lawrence seaway panader0 Jul 2019 #10
Wow! H2O Man Jul 2019 #11
When you're on a good sized wave, anything overhead, 8 or 10 feet panader0 Jul 2019 #14
Really, I went to St. Lawrence as well. smirkymonkey Jul 2019 #16
Five years ago. H2O Man Jul 2019 #17
Oh, ok. She would be a little younger than me. I graduated about 30 smirkymonkey Jul 2019 #18
Thanks for sharing your family's history Bayard Jul 2019 #4
Thank you! H2O Man Jul 2019 #9
What a thoughtful post malaise Jul 2019 #5
Thanks! H2O Man Jul 2019 #12
K&R and thanks! nt tblue37 Jul 2019 #6
Thank you! H2O Man Jul 2019 #13
I think the difference is in the details Archdruid Grulog Jul 2019 #15
Sure. H2O Man Jul 2019 #19
My ancestors came from Ireland in the 1870s mcar Jul 2019 #20
My paternal ancestors were peasants in County Roscommon. PatrickforO Jul 2019 #21
A very good read, as yours always are, my dear H20 Man... CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2019 #22
Some of my people shanti Jul 2019 #23
K&R... spanone Jul 2019 #24
My Nonno was a marble cutter too stopwastingmymoney Jul 2019 #25
Great post, H2O peggysue2 Jul 2019 #26
Irish DNA is quite the distinct genotype, isn't it? Growing up in Hawai'i, I never knew... Hekate Jul 2019 #31
LOL!! Too true on all counts, Hekate peggysue2 Jul 2019 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author MartyTheGreek Jul 2019 #27
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. The highlight of my day. Thanks. marble falls Jul 2019 #28
Thank you. I was raised on stories of our Irish ancestors. Mom taught me to see the commonality..... Hekate Jul 2019 #29
The anonymity of social media makes it so much NoMoreRepugs Jul 2019 #30

Delmette2.0

(4,157 posts)
3. I was just thinking about that.
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 10:46 AM
Jul 2019

The white supremacist don't like being out numbered or proven to be uneducated. Heaven forbid that a person of color be intelligent and creative

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
7. True fact.
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 12:26 PM
Jul 2019

After much debate, around the time of WW1 the larger WASP society in the US decided to recognize the Irish as white folk. I've never been sure if that included those who arrived decades earlier, or not. The Ku Klux Klan members were still convinced that Irish Catholics were not in the same class as they were .....something I agree with. But the KKK conducted very few attacks, relatively speaking, on the Irish, because we fought back.

Certainly, there is a distinction between the Famine Ships my relatives came on, and the slave ships that my nephews' ancestors were brought here on. And there has been a distinct experience ever since. Yet, as Rubin "Hurricane" Carter said, "Lois raises an important point. Like pain is pain, suffering is suffering -- whether wrongly imprisoned, wrongly placed in a concentration camp, or wrongly abused as a child. But pain is a component of suffering, but not suffering itself. There are no degrees of suffering."

panader0

(25,816 posts)
2. Much of my family came from County Cork.
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 10:21 AM
Jul 2019

They settled near Canton, New York. One of my uncles also worked with
marble. Because my dad was USAF, I never had much contact with them.
But once, when he visited Az, he showed me photos of the work he had
done in the area, facades on libraries and city buildings. He liked me because
I was a bricklayer. All of my family on mom and dad's side were life-long Democrats.
We will level the field. Things will get better. They have to.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
8. Canton, NY
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 12:28 PM
Jul 2019

My older daughter went to St. Lawrence. While there, she worked with children on Mohawk Territory. That's where Chief Paul Waterman's mother came from. Small world.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
10. My mother made the papers when she swam the St Lawrence seaway
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 01:06 PM
Jul 2019

around 1928. She had a row boat follow her. She almost made the Olympic team
for the '32 games in L.A. A friend of hers swam from Alcatraz to San Francisco,
(my home town). I too was a great swimmer in my youth. I spent many hours
in the water offshore from Oahu.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
11. Wow!
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 03:04 PM
Jul 2019

My younger son just swam across a good-sized lake. His aunt had offered to paddle behind him on the lake she lives near, but he opted to go it alone. And while he is an okay swimmer, it still made me nervous. Clearly, your Mom was in a very different class.

I'm more comfortable in the swimming hole at the waterfalls here. Of course, when my boy was 12, and the water was running way, way too hard to make swimming safe, he ignored what I told him, and went in. Yikes! He found out just how powerful water currents can be.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
14. When you're on a good sized wave, anything overhead, 8 or 10 feet
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 03:25 PM
Jul 2019

and you "wipe out", you can spend some time underwater. You get churned
up pretty hard, like being in in a washing machine. The only thing you can do
is relax and let it go. I have had a few bad ones, coming up to breathe and
vomit. Still, I loved my time in the ocean, sitting alone, waiting for a set of waves.
The pali so green on one side and the Pacific so endless on the other.
I didn't realize it then, but it was the stuff of dreams...

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
18. Oh, ok. She would be a little younger than me. I graduated about 30
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 05:10 PM
Jul 2019

years ago!

Nice family story, btw. I really enjoy hearing stories about immigrant families - where they came from and how they progressed over generations. One side of my family immigrated around the turn of the 20th century (Italian) and the other side had been here a bit longer (English/Dutch migration) but not exactly sure when they came over.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
12. Thanks!
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 03:11 PM
Jul 2019

I had always wondered how the hardware store that Tom and my grandfather had in a town not far from Elmira burned down. I think I've figured it out!

 

Archdruid Grulog

(12 posts)
15. I think the difference is in the details
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 03:47 PM
Jul 2019

"I think about that, when I consider what the federal government is doing to the human beings from Central America that seek refuge in this country. They are attempting to come to this country for the same reasons my family came from Ireland. I recently saw an interview with the Dalai Lama, where he noted that immigrants are looking in part for the education and job skills that will allow them to eventually return to their homelands, and I recognize that dynamic from my own family history. "

The major difference I can see is that they're coming to the country that inflicted the damages - US foreign policy in Central America is atrocious, and unfortunately (at least partially) linked to some seemingly benign American staples (fruit, coffee, etc).

I suspect the Irish attempting to move to England during the starvation received a welcome much closer to the one we're giving to our neighbors below the Southern border.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
19. Sure.
Tue Jul 2, 2019, 07:13 PM
Jul 2019

It wasn't until after the industrial revolution had taken hold, after the Great Starvation, that Irish were needed in any significant numbers in England. Hence, the Leonards became the Lennons, for but one example. And there was a dynamic not unlike during WW2 in the US, when women began working in large numbers in factories.

PatrickforO

(14,559 posts)
21. My paternal ancestors were peasants in County Roscommon.
Wed Jul 3, 2019, 10:56 PM
Jul 2019

They grew up on a 14 acre potato farm, and when the great hunger happened my twice great grandfather James came over and landed in New York. He later brought his brothers Patrick and John over. They ended up in Warrensburg, MO.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,523 posts)
22. A very good read, as yours always are, my dear H20 Man...
Thu Jul 4, 2019, 02:28 AM
Jul 2019

Whenever you talk about history and our past, I see a door opening. You illuminate your stories so well, it is like a door suddenly opening and the light bursting through.

Thank you so much!

shanti

(21,675 posts)
23. Some of my people
Thu Jul 4, 2019, 11:44 AM
Jul 2019

were from Cobh, Cork and Ennystimon, Clare and came here during the Great Starvation. They were indentured and were actually supposed to arrive in Canada, but they jumped the border near Niagara Falls and settled in Buffalo. 3rd ggrandfather was a blacksmith.

Unless you are indigenous, your people were immigrants and refugees. Thank you for sharing your story, H20 Man!

stopwastingmymoney

(2,041 posts)
25. My Nonno was a marble cutter too
Thu Jul 4, 2019, 12:19 PM
Jul 2019

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2019, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)

His family came over from Italy beginning with his father in the 1890’s to work in the quarries in Vermont. All of his siblings and many other extended family members eventually settled in Los Angeles in the 1920’s. His work is all over the beautiful depression era buildings in LA.

They were proud and hard working people who valued education and family.

They are what America is all about.

Today, they are gone of course, but they have seven great grandchildren. Their daughter Carmen raised her children and grandchildren to work hard in school as a path to better ourselves and give our children a good life. Every one of us has a college degree. We hold two masters and a doctorate. We are raising the next generation. The eldest just graduated from UC Berkeley. All good people, a legacy to be proud of.

Most of us have a family story like this one.

I’m not feeling the 4th this year, let’s have Ancestor Appreciation Day instead 😊

peggysue2

(10,823 posts)
26. Great post, H2O
Thu Jul 4, 2019, 01:13 PM
Jul 2019

With an edge of personal familiarity. The business with the pope taunt, for instance. I was nine or ten years old when a classmate called me a 'papist pig.' I didn't know what that was, told my mother when I got home and she went absolutely ballistic. LOL.

Ahhhh, the good ole days!

I had the opportunity to visit Cork about 20 years ago. It was a revelation because so many of the people on the street looked like my mother's family. In fact, while my sister and I waited for my mother to buy some Irish wools, I spotted a woman who was the spitting image of my Great-Aunt Katie. The problem was Aunt Katie had been dead for over 15 years. Amazing.

Hekate

(90,556 posts)
31. Irish DNA is quite the distinct genotype, isn't it? Growing up in Hawai'i, I never knew...
Fri Jul 5, 2019, 10:56 AM
Jul 2019

...I looked Irish, as such. Sure, I looked like my immediate family, but who doesn't? Same in California.

Then in my 30s I visited Boston, and saw "cousins" on every corner. Oh. So in my 50s when I got a chance to visit Ireland, I was ready. I just was not prepared for how melanin-deficient my people are, in the aggregate.

peggysue2

(10,823 posts)
32. LOL!! Too true on all counts, Hekate
Fri Jul 5, 2019, 12:19 PM
Jul 2019

I was really taken aback in Ireland. I knew my mother's people came from the south of Ireland. I just didn't expect everyone to look like family members.

As for the melanin-deficiency? You should have caught me on the Jersey Shore as a kid. I was the one who looked like a lobster. I still need to be careful in the sun.

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Hekate

(90,556 posts)
29. Thank you. I was raised on stories of our Irish ancestors. Mom taught me to see the commonality.....
Fri Jul 5, 2019, 10:31 AM
Jul 2019

...in all the immigrant stories, especially those of mass migration.

I don't understand my fellow Americans who think that the last one in should bar the door. I don't understand those who devolve into tribal barbarity when given the opportunity.

These are dark times, and I hope this nation can survive with its soul intact.




NoMoreRepugs

(9,371 posts)
30. The anonymity of social media makes it so much
Fri Jul 5, 2019, 10:47 AM
Jul 2019

easier to hate and discriminate today, I'm not so sure that even an overwhelming victory in 2020 will reverse the course our sick nation is on.

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