Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
Tue Mar 5, 2019, 11:37 PM Mar 2019

RICO Slobby

Every so often, it can be useful to update things that were discussed before. In this instance, I'm looking back almost two years. On Sunday, March 26, 2017, I posted an essay titled “RICO Suave” on DU:GD. In this essay, I noted that my favorite source of information on the Trump-Russian scandal, Malcolm Nance, had said the FBI was conducting a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) investigation.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028855710

We have heard numerous opinions on if a sitting president can be indicted. This is unsettled law. However, in the 1990s, it was determined that a sitting president could be forced to defend civil charges. This is important, because RICO charges can include both criminal and civil charges.

I had assumed at the time that James Comey was in charge of the investigation that would lead to RICO charges. A few weeks later, I anticipated that it would be charged by Mr. Mueller. Even after Mr. Mueller handed off the Michael Cohen business to the Southern District of New York, I figured that Mr. Mueller would handle the RICO bit.

A number of people – including guests on MSNBC and CNN – kept saying the SDNY was actually more of a threat to Trump than Mr. Mueller. This included several people that I have a lot of respect for. Being rather dull-witted myself, I decided to ask a few people with far greater insight than myself about why the SDNY was more of a threat?

Their answers, as best as I understood them, were three-fold. First, top prosecutors tend to charge and try those cases that they are very confident they will win. Those charges are not always for the exact crimes they had investigated. A prime example of this was Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation of possible violations of the Intelligence Identities Protect Act in the Plame scandal. He ended up prosecuting Scooter Libby on charges of perjury, obstructing justice, and lying to the FBI and grand jury.

I had hoped there would be more charges. Mr. Fitzgerald had, for example, suggested that Congress investigate VP Cheney's role. However, as one of those smarter-than-me people told me, Libby ended up a convicted felon, and Cheney was left a toothless old dog. (Curious that Trump pardoned Scooter.)

The SDNY will have a much easier time prosecuting the Trump “family business” on RICO than Mr. Mueller could have proven, beyond an ill-defined “reasonable doubt,” Trump's direct participation in conspiring with Russia. More, the SDNY will include the Trump business relations with Russian interests. This allows them to reach the goal of charging all of those involved. It will include things that were done before Trump entered the republican primaries, the entire campaign, the transition, and the corruption since Trump took office.

It is most likely that Trump will be listed as an unindicted co-conspirator on the criminal charges, and faced with civil charges. However, I was told that the SDNY might actually try indicting Trump. If so, it would likely be sealed until he is removed from office.

Finally, I was told that while Trump is accurately being described as behaving as a mob boss, there were two important things to keep in mind: He's not that bright. Trump had no real understanding of what the powers and responsibilities of the presidency included when he decided to run. And second, he's a fucking slob in all he does, who anticipates everyone else has to clean up his messes.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RICO Slobby (Original Post) H2O Man Mar 2019 OP
When Malcom Nance talks, I listen. gateley Mar 2019 #1
Thanks for the explanation. watoos Mar 2019 #2
I want to add another comment, watoos Mar 2019 #3
Good read. Thanks. empedocles Mar 2019 #4
I don't think it is a civil suit. watoos Mar 2019 #8
RICO provides for both criminal and civil suits. SunSeeker Mar 2019 #18
Right! Another angle to go at the crime family. Get around some of the defenses. empedocles Mar 2019 #23
And those unpaid contractors could get treble damages plus attorney fees. SunSeeker Mar 2019 #24
Trump won a lot of these cases by making a protracted case out of it YessirAtsaFact Mar 2019 #26
Yep. nt SunSeeker Mar 2019 #27
Excellent as always. I am so looking forward to the results of a RICO investigation... Hekate Mar 2019 #5
Thanks for another far too infrequent, well-written and thoughtful post, H2O Man. yonder Mar 2019 #6
Does an indictment have to be approved by Billy Barr? 3Hotdogs Mar 2019 #7
Good question. watoos Mar 2019 #9
Gerardo SamKnause Mar 2019 #10
Kick dalton99a Mar 2019 #11
K&R... spanone Mar 2019 #12
Question: if SDNY indicts and it is sealed, will it Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2019 #13
The Beauty of RICO Is That They Will Seize and Freeze All Assets. So Trump .... DoctorJoJo Mar 2019 #14
Yep, RICO was made for Trump Org. nt SunSeeker Mar 2019 #15
+1 uponit7771 Mar 2019 #16
It's not RICO. It's never RICO EndGOPPropaganda Mar 2019 #17
wannabe mob boss Hermit-The-Prog Mar 2019 #19
Let's hope Mueller or SDNY takes the Trump Syndicate down. democrank Mar 2019 #20
He is going down - love this malaise Mar 2019 #21
Veeeeeeery interesting coeur_de_lion Mar 2019 #22
He's a malignant narcissist with extreme delusions of invulnerability. BSdetect Mar 2019 #25
If you caught that freak out... dawnie51 Mar 2019 #28
Betchya he doesn't throw his own McD's wrappers away Blue Owl Mar 2019 #29
This is off the subject Beringia Mar 2019 #30
I've known Tony H2O Man Mar 2019 #31
 

watoos

(7,142 posts)
2. Thanks for the explanation.
Tue Mar 5, 2019, 11:46 PM
Mar 2019

I was basically flying by the seat of my pants when I posted that it looked like the SDNY was pursuing RICO indictments against the Trump organization. Luckily you explained better what I posted, thanks.

The thing for people to remember, and I'm guessing about this again, this will be a massive investigation with bunches of indictments. This trial is going to last a long time, hopefully justice is served and karma is served.

 

watoos

(7,142 posts)
3. I want to add another comment,
Tue Mar 5, 2019, 11:49 PM
Mar 2019

because I expect Trump to go ballistic when the shit hits the fan. We need our presidential candidate to be tough as nails.

SunSeeker

(51,523 posts)
18. RICO provides for both criminal and civil suits.
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 01:04 AM
Mar 2019

For example, victims can sue for treble damages, and the defendant need not have been convicted criminally under RICO. https://rico.uslegal.com/civil-remedies/

SunSeeker

(51,523 posts)
24. And those unpaid contractors could get treble damages plus attorney fees.
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 11:41 AM
Mar 2019

But they'd need a good law firm capable of dealing with Trump's protracted legal shenanigans.

YessirAtsaFact

(2,064 posts)
26. Trump won a lot of these cases by making a protracted case out of it
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 12:30 PM
Mar 2019

And running his subcontractors out of money they could afford to spend on legal fees.

SDNY won't have that issue.

Hekate

(90,565 posts)
5. Excellent as always. I am so looking forward to the results of a RICO investigation...
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 12:02 AM
Mar 2019

...for which there are no presidential pardons.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
13. Question: if SDNY indicts and it is sealed, will it
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 12:36 AM
Mar 2019

Be secret? Or will we know there's a sealed indictment waiting for him? Important for campaign for sure.

 

DoctorJoJo

(1,134 posts)
14. The Beauty of RICO Is That They Will Seize and Freeze All Assets. So Trump ....
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 12:41 AM
Mar 2019

... will end up so broke he will be giving hummers behind McDonald's for happy meals!

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,264 posts)
19. wannabe mob boss
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 01:05 AM
Mar 2019

The Trumps wish they could be an important cell in Putin's mob. None are smart enough or know enough. They're useful, privileged patsies for the Russians. They're also useful to our home-grown, Repug-nurtured oligarchs. That usefulness will come to an end as the criminal threads are unwound in public.

democrank

(11,085 posts)
20. Let's hope Mueller or SDNY takes the Trump Syndicate down.
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 03:06 AM
Mar 2019

Trump needs to go from vertical to horizontal....and soon.

malaise

(268,724 posts)
21. He is going down - love this
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 05:45 AM
Mar 2019

I was told that while Trump is accurately being described as behaving as a mob boss, there were two important things to keep in mind: He's not that bright. Trump had no real understanding of what the powers and responsibilities of the presidency included when he decided to run. And second, he's a fucking slob in all he does, who anticipates everyone else has to clean up his messes.

coeur_de_lion

(3,676 posts)
22. Veeeeeeery interesting
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 06:37 AM
Mar 2019

He’s as stupid and lazy as he looks. Mueller investigation is important but he’s in more trouble than that. As long as he’s gone I don’t really care who gets him. SDNY, or Mueller.

I can’t understand how he still functions, with all these axes hanging over his head. The stress would kill me. But I guess I have a conscience. He doesn’t.

dawnie51

(959 posts)
28. If you caught that freak out...
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 01:58 PM
Mar 2019

of R. Kelly on CBS Morning Show, that's what Trump will do. I thought Kelly was going to be removed in a straight jacket there for a minute.

Blue Owl

(50,291 posts)
29. Betchya he doesn't throw his own McD's wrappers away
Wed Mar 6, 2019, 11:35 PM
Mar 2019

If some lowly pee-on didn't do it for him, he'd be wallowing in his own filth 24/7...

Beringia

(4,316 posts)
30. This is off the subject
Thu Mar 7, 2019, 06:19 PM
Mar 2019

But I thought it was interesting. I was listening to a youtube video yesterday on Near Death Experiences, and the man talking who had one is Tony Cicoria. He is Chief of Orthopedics at Chenango Memorial Hospital, Norwich, New York, and Clinical Assistant Professor of Orthopedics at SUNY Upstate Medical School, in Syracuse. I recognized that is the area you talk about as being from. He mentions he recognized a special feeling for a woman, like he had known her before, and he said he saw her looking like an Indian Princess. Then he talked to her and she told him she used to take care of the chief of the Onondaga nation and he said she used to be an Indian Princess.

He talks about this at the 1 hour mark.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»RICO Slobby