In Cold Blood

[H2O Man]

As we watch the melt-down of Donald Trump via twitter and rallies, it may be worthwhile to consider something that a retired federal prosecutor recently explained on the news. He was taking part in a discussion on the differences between interrogating a “common” criminal versus a “con man.” Most criminals, he noted, recognize that they are outlaws. This is like John Dillinger, who believed that robbing banks was his job, and the police's job was to catch him.

Once caught, common criminals tend to do one of two things: the weaker ones rat out others to try to get a reduced sentence, while those who subscribe to the criminal code of conduct accept their fate. In modern times – and this is pre-DSM 5's shift for insurance coverage – these people were labeled with “anti-social personality disorder.” A few of these criminals have been able to rise to powerful positions in mainstream society before being unmasked as common criminals. Richard Nixon is a fine example.

The retired prosecutor explained that these people are far easier to interview, and break, than those known as “con men” or related terms. For these “con men” are convinced that they can lie their way out of any situation. Their confidence in their ability to manipulate is rooted in years of experience. This includes a belief that they can out-smart anyone by way of spontaneously lying off the top of their heads.

These are known as sociopaths (or psychopaths, depending upon if one separates genetics from environmental factors). Years ago, when I did an in-service training at my place of employment on sociopaths, I used a section from the book “In Cold Blood” to illustrate sociopathy in action. First published in 1966, this was the best-selling “true crime” book until Vincent Bugliosi published “Helter Skelter”; it remains the second best-seller today.

In it, Truman Capote tells the story of the murder of the Herb Clutter family in rural Kansas, a vicious crime that shocked the nation. There is a part where the two men who commit the murders go shopping. Perry is the classic anti-social, and Dick is the sociopath. In business after business, Dick is able to evaluate and then manipulate the clerks into literally giving them “free stuff,” that he has no intention of ever paying for. This is the approach a sociopath takes when being interviewed by an investigator – rapid evaluations that lead to attempts to manipulate in an manner aimed at not paying for one's crimes.

It's worth briefly considering part of the book “Helter Skelter,” too. When Charlie recognizes the gig is up, what does he do? He convinces some of his “family” – in this case, all females – to try to both take the fall for the crimes, and to implicate other men. But not Charlie. Sociopaths manipulate anti-socials.

This brings us to the question: is Trump mentally ill? As is well-documented in Bandy Lee's book, “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump,” the president is a classic sociopath. This is a personality type, distinct from a mental illness. It involves brain structures, and this is why normal people often describe sociopaths as “cold-blooded” and reptilian. At the same time, it is accurate to say that a sociopath under extreme pressure can experience episodes of psychosis – or breaks from reality. Hence, the current melt-down, in which the sick puppy attempts to manipulate reality.

Does Trump really want to talk to Mr. Mueller? Does he really believe he can convince Mr. Mueller that the investigation is a witch hunt? I think that part of him does. But the other part of him is scared shitless.

[underpants]

1. Man could Capote write

Last edited Sun Aug 5, 2018, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

You too

Capote was just so excellent I couldn't put that book down. I may need to start reading his stuff again.

Even today Trump lives in a bubble. Gen. Kelly seems to have figured out how to keep him there while still allowing for information to get in. I think that's why he's sticking around, he knows Trump can't be trusted to just anyone controlling him.

[tblue37]

4. Who is Jelly? nt

[underpants]

6. Meant Gen. Kelly

[JDC]

37. Shoulda Left it. Gen Jelly has a ring to it.

[TexasBushwhacker]

5. FYI - Sundance has produced a documentary series called "Cold Blooded"

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Blooded-Clutter-Family-Murders/dp/B076ZX3MVN/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pb_opt?ie=UTF8

[H2O Man]

7. It's interesting that

Kelly decided to stay on. I know the White House reported that Trump asked him to, but I do not believe that was a factor -- if it happened at all. Kelly had been intent on bowing out this summer, and I was convince4d he would. I am under the impression that others in the military intelligence community lobbied for him to stay on, especially after Helsinki. They recognize that Trump is becoming dangerously unstable. And this, of course, led to Kelly having the intel heads at the recent press conference.

[canetoad]

35. Bingo!

I've been thinking for a while that Kelly is not exactly hanging in as CoS by choice or love of Trump.

Thanks for the OP. Love your posts.

[Blue_true]

39. I was thinking earlier today about General Kelly.

Still can't figure out whether he is staying on because of hate of others (immigrants, non whites, LGBTQ), or he is staying on out of some twisted logic of his that he is the only thing standing between Trump and destruction of the country. I wondered about what instructions Kelly has given the carrier of the nuclear codes in case Trump goes farther off the deep end.

[underpants]

41. I think it's the latter

My 2 cents

[Blue_true]

42. You could be right. nt

[exboyfil]

52. Still the former seems like a bonus to him

No way I can forgive his slander of a US Representative (not to mention the other crap). He is a disgrace to the Marine Corps.

[empedocles]

51. 'Man, H2O can write'

Thank you

[Hoyt]

2. Excellent. Would loved to have heard/read Capote's take on trump.

[H2O Man]

8. Me, too.

Capote came to view Perry in a sympathetic light, viewing him as a victim of a tortured childhood. I think he might have believed that Dick changed for the worse after sustaining a head injury. While head injuries can definitely alter a person, I don't think that was the case with Dick. The prefrontal lobes, when damaged, create difficulties in reading others' intentions. Dick had zero problem with this, as virtually all of his behaviors show. He was even able to charm Capote at times.

I think Capote would find Trump utterly repulsive. (I also would have enjoyed Mr. Bugliosi's read on Trump.)

[Hoyt]

11. I agree. "In Cold Blood" is probably my favorite book and the film was quite good.

In the late 1970s, I drove across country by myself. I went through Kansas trying to stay on two lane roads. About all I wanted from Kansas was to see one of those big thunderstorms. I got my wish.

Later, and maybe it was just my recollection of the book or film, I swear I was driving on this two lane road in the middle of nowhere and there were two guys dressed like Hickock and Smith (down to rolled up jeans, black hair slicked back, etc.) sitting on a couple of old suitcases hitchhiking. I sped up as fast as the old VW would go and kept looking back for the next 1000 miles. I can still envision those two guys. Now, I'm jumpy again.

I think you are right about Capote finding trump repulsive. On a late-night show like Colbert, he'd be merciless.

[H2O Man]

17. Yikes!

I used to hitchhike, and pick up hitchhikers. It was a common form of transportation. I don't pick up as many these days .....in part, I suppose, because there are fewer out there the few times I do leave my property. And I sure as hell wouldn't pick up two guys that resembled Perry and Dick!

Capote was a wordsmith. Just an amazing talent. And, to borrow from one of Paul's letters, he did not suffer fools gladly. I always loved watching him on television. I'd put him up there with James Baldwin, another great mind.

[underpants]

43. That's why Carson had him on a lot

When Johnny died his producer Freddie Decordiva (so?) was on Franken's Air America radio show. He said that Carson got a lot of pressure from NBC to stay out of politics. Carson was very liberal. To get around it he'd have guests like Capote on and just let them go. Gore Vidal too I think. He wasn't saying it so NBC stayed off his back.

[Hoyt]

44. Good point. That's where I first saw Capote, although had read

him earlier and read articles about him.

[coeur_de_lion]

34. Capote said of Perry,

"It's as if Perry and I grew up in the same house. And one day he stood up and went out the back door, while I went out the front."

I guess they had similar difficult childhoods.

That book scared the living shit out of me when I read it. I had just moved in to this huge old victorian house I was renting. I was by myself one night and read the book in one sitting. I locked my bedroom door and didn't come out until it was daylight. Didn't sleep a wink.

I never gave much thought to Dick. I guess to me, Perry was the more sympathetic character. I ignored Dick.

Perry had a sense of humor, referring to his upcoming hanging as a necktie party.

Capote would have enjoyed mocking trump and he would have written a book about him. Best seller.

[Hoyt]

45. My eyes still get a little wet at the end of the movie

as Smith is standing next to the window and the rain looks like he might be crying for what he did, or maybe he was, right before being hung.

It was if to say his life could so easily have been different, if another door had been available.

You are right, Hickock would have been a killer no matter what, at least as portrayed in the book and film.

Ironically, I used to be a big fan of Robert Blake until he killed his wife.

[coeur_de_lion]

46. I was too!

Then he had to go and kill his wife. He's not still alive is he?

He was very good in the original movie.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

3. Your analytical comparison of DT & Dick Hickock is interesting - charming sociopaths - gift of gab

Memorable parts of the book: Dick and Perry were hitchhiking and a car slowed and stopped ahead of the two. They ran towards the vehicle, and were just about to open the door. The driver suddenly had second thoughts and drove off. Dick laughed and said something to the effect: "that is one very lucky man" - as they were planning on killing him.

[H2O Man]

9. Right, right!

Now you are stirring my memory -- difficult, at this advanced age. I remember a related part, but am not clear if it is just from the book, or from boxing back in the 1960s. But when Dick and Perry were thumbing a ride, a convertible driven by a large man pulled over. Perry didn't know who it was, but Dick recognized him. It was Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, the half-black, half-Cherokee heavyweight contender. Cleveland was a giant, and powerfully built (he worked on his manager Hugh Benbow's horse ranch, building up the power that resulted in one of the highest percentages of knockouts ever). Dick knew better than to try to roll Cleveland. I can't recall if the pair accepted a ride with the Big Cat or not. Do you recall?

[AnotherMother4Peace]

36. I vaguely recall that scene, as they were hitching rides or stealing cars to from US to Mexico.

I recall from the book they were picked up by a salesman, with Dick riding shotgun and Perry seated right behind the driver. Dick had just given Perry the signal to bash him in the head, when the driver suddenly pulls over to pick up another hitch hiker. Dick called it a "Goddamn miracle".

[Nasruddin]

10. Sociopaths manipulate anti-socials

This is an interesting insight.

I may be getting this terminology confused, but I had the idea that sociopaths
were a kind of AS personality disorder, maybe an extreme on a spectrum:
a criminal sociopath is quite a lot more trouble than an extremely difficult,
unscrupulous jackass that you might happen to encounter in life, but both
have anti-social personality issues.

But in any event, that the sociopaths can collect up lesser ASPDs and
manipulate them is very interesting and might explain a lot. Maybe it
even explains the president, who is clearly enthralled with Putin.

[H2O Man]

12. For many years,

sociopaths were recognized as distinct from ASPD. The biggest factor is that ASPD have a "criminal code of conduct/honor," and can become changed through treatment to become solid citizens. Sociopaths have no code and no honor, and no treatment/therapy can change them. Thus, insurance companies began to refuse to pay for services that people provided for them. Thus, the change in the name of the diagnoses.

When I provided treatment -- both in the jail setting and outside -- I had a pretty fair rate of success with many ASPD people. Admittedly, avoiding alcohol was a significant factor, as intoxicated people are prone to stupid behaviors. But I can't think of a single success story with sociopaths. Not in my experience, that of very talented co-workers, or even the top people in the field. A few mellow out with age, or at least appear to. But there is no real treatment other than incarceration. (And they cause trouble while incarcerated, too.)

[dalton99a]

15. +1.

[Blue_true]

40. Makes sense.

I have yet to see a deplorable that does not have a good bit of anti-social behavior about him or her, same goes for people that identify as republican. Trump manipulate them all.

[elmac]

13. another example of a sociopathic, psychopathic criminal

can be found in the book, When Evil Came To Good Hart. The perpetrator was never formally charged because of the system and the fact that he was a perfect con artist, just like tRump.

[H2O Man]

19. Thank you!

I haven't read that one -- yet! One of the very best features of DU is when friends recommend good books. I really appreciate it.

[elmac]

24. You're welcome

It does a very good job going through the evidence of a real Northern MI murder mystery from 1968. The reasons it was planned, the very intricate way it was planned, carried out and covered up shows a very deceitful criminal mind at work.

[H2O Man]

28. Sounds very interesting.

If you like that type of book, you might enjoy "Good Cop/ Bad Cop," by Rebecca Cofer (New Horizon Press; 1994). It's the story of a violent sociopath who murdered a middle class family of four just before the Christmas holiday, outside of Ithaca, NY. I am not entirely objective about the book, as my uncle is the BCI Senior Investigator who solved the case. It was one of dozens of high profile cases he solved in NYS. (There was a double-homicide committed outside of the village of Walton, NY, by a sociopath and two anti-socials who traveled from Kentucky for a failed robbery, that my uncle solved in less than 24 hours. I'm trying to talk him into helping me write a book about that case.)

[elmac]

31. Thanks, I will check that out. Cool about your uncle,

that must be a very interesting career. I like the book collaboration idea!

[dalton99a]

14. Great post.

Thanks, H2O Man!

[H2O Man]

20. Thanks, dalton99a!

In this strange and dangerous time, when the news moves so quickly, I thought it was good to review this subject matter. I had hoped that when Bandy Lee's book came out, it would have a greater influence on the national discussion. It's encouraging to see that the members of the DU community have a greater grasp of this than the general public.

[duforsure]

16. A good interview of a psychiatrists opinion of trump

[H2O Man]

21. Fantastic!

Thank you so much for this! His contribution to "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump" is found as chapter 9. He is one of the most respected experts in the country.

[Honeycombe8]

18. I agree with this, to the extent I know anything about the brain or psychopathic issues.

All I know is what I've been saying since early 2016: there's something wrong with him. Seriously wrong.

[H2O Man]

22. Right.

It's fairly common for "everyday" people to have a reaction -- call it a "gut feeling" -- that alerts them that something ain't right when they encounter a sociopath. This gut feeling allows them to avoid becoming a victim of the sociopath. And it's important to recognize that the majority of sociopaths aren't murderers, they are just manipulative shitheads looking to get over on unsuspecting victims.

What you describe in yourself is a step higher, the ability to recognize that gut feeling about someone you don't encounter in your life face-to-face, but see on television. You knew right away that there was something wrong, in a manner distinct from that of the normal crooked republican politician. And you were right on target!

[Honeycombe8]

27. Thanks for noticing!

Yes, I thought so early on, and I never wavered. Other people did too, though.

[H2O Man]

29. Yes, it is true

that other people did. But not enough to say that it is an instinct-skill that anywhere enough people have. Our culture trains people to ignore their gut feelings. Hence, even a lot of good people initially thought Trump was simply a clown in early 2016. But you knew. That is important.

I did some part-time ("add-junk"!) teaching of masters students for the state university. This included in the office, in the jail, and in the community responding to emergencies. My number one rule in all cases was to trust your gut feelings. I learned that many years ago, when I was employed investigating family violence. It helped me stay safe in some very dangerous situations, both in that job, and later at the mental health clinic.

[Honeycombe8]

38. Very interesting.

I did not know that people don't listen to their gut feelings, like they used to. This reminds me of dogs. Dogs are like that. They circle around, smelling a newcomer, and can tell when there's something off about the new guy.

Interesting.

[Hekate]

49. You and H2O Man are giving me a lot to think about. I don't know when I pegged him as an abusive SOB

...but it was fairly early on. There were some articles I read, testimonials from women I found entirely believable as I watched his bullying behavior in public, so by the time he literally stalked Hillary around the stage at the debate, watching him do that made me sick to my stomach. Something is terribly, dangerously, wrong with that man.

For a lot of my life I have questioned my intuition and felt it was damaged in childhood: a combination of abuse (this isn't really happening in my family) and feminine socialization (don't judge a book by its cover; be nice to everyone, and if they aren't nice back ask what you did to deserve it).

Yet the Pole star that saved me from things that snared other people I met over time was my mother's sense of ethics and ethical behavior that she instilled in me. Religious people would have called it morality; New Agey people would have called it my inner guide; but my mother had kind of an 18th century Enlightenment sensibility, and she called it ethics.

Trump is a walking talking violation of -- everything normal and good, and he is dangerous. Likely my intuition isn't as damaged as I thought, because it was not pure reason that got me to my fundamental realizations about Trump.

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. Not enough people are aware of this.

Knowing it literally saved my life. Unbeknownst to my mentor, he assigned me a sociopath for my first pastoral counseling internship. By three sessions in, I knew I could not be in the same room with that woman alone again. Two years later she brutally murdered someone who was trying to help her.

Very frustrating that I could not get people to recognize there was something off about her. Largely because people associated sociopathy with males at that time. Fortunately, there has been a growing appreciation for the incidence of female sociopaths. And I agree. Most sociopaths aren't murderers.

Trump has skeeved me out since I first became aware of him in the 1980s. I never could grasp how he became a reality television personality. Back in the primaries I think I was already commenting here that he would score high on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.

[malaise]

23. Scared shitless is kind

Great post WaterMan.

[H2O Man]

25. Thanks!

That line was the result of a phone call from my cousin, as I was writing the OP. He said, "It looks like another truckload of diapers is needed at the White House."

[malaise]

26. I almost mentioned

Depends.

[H2O Man]

30. Great minds

think alike! You'd love my cousin.

[malaise]

32. I'm sure of that

[spanone]

33. K&R...

[coeur_de_lion]

47. Thinking about our pal donald

There is a lot of talk about his deteriorating mental state. Omarosa wrote a book about how startling his decline is.

I have a theory about that. Yes I believe he is mentally ill. But I think the reason for his decline is more simple than senile dementia coming on. I think the man is scared shitless. I think he doesn't sleep because he knows he is guilty and he knows Putin will absolutely have him killed if he doesn't deliver, and he cannot deliver what Putin wants. The walls are closing in on him. Rather than sleep he rage tweets.

He can't even remember or keep track of his lies there are so many. He's getting squeezed by Mueller on one side and Putin on the other. So he lies and lies some more.

If I never slept, and I was already seriously ill mentally, and I had committed crimes against my country, and I owed money and allegiance to someone as evil as Putin, I would be wildly inaccurate and apeshit just like him. I would be lashing out.

Anyway these are just my random trump thoughts at 2:00 AM. Time for bed.

[uponit7771]

50. +1, his episodes of psychosis are increasing and its showing in public.

[exboyfil]

53. Do you think that Putin

would engage in wetwork on a high profile US citizen especially an ex-President? That is the kind of thing that starts wars.

[coeur_de_lion]

54. Maybe not

But trump may believe that he would do it.

He's deathly afraid of *something*.

[Hekate]

48. I just hope the hell he can be got out of there before he nukes something to change the subject...

I think Mr. Mueller could, by flattering Trump's ego, get him to walk in the door to Mueller's domain. Do you think Mueller even wants him to at this point?

Anyway, thanks for your analysis.

[DrDan]

55. I don't think he wants to talk to Mueller . . . I agree he is scared s***less

This ruse is just fodder for his cult. He will fight it to the SCOTUS.

[peekaloo]

56. Reading this fine post makes me miss another writer/journalist.

Hunter S. Thompson.

One can only imagine the sheer brutality of his take on our current situation,along with his hilarious use of language to pinpoint the rage and frustration we feel.

Another correlation between Dick and Thump is their attitude/treatment toward women. I'm thinking about that scene with Dick and the prostitute in Mexico. The macho he-man so insecure he has to beg/demand she tell him how good he is. (I saw the film long before I read the book) Paging Stormy Daniels!

Must be my scatological leanings.