The Decline of Civility

[Civic Justice]

The Decline of Civility - Its our choice to bring civility to the madness...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210810195

We must become people who "express our point of view", "our thoughts" and "our ideas" and "present understanding of what supports our Ideals"....
then we can begin to regain civility... but we also have to listen... as well as we want to speak.


In years to come, someone will stumble upon these writings that are made today within these forums, because everything is backed up on servers, and those servers are backed up, and bots are scanning the internet to collect and preserve data, by many means..... and the people in the future will have access to see how we think, by what we express and they will judge our era of society accordingly.

there will be software and bots that scan commentary, and re-catalog it in ways we have yet to consider, and it will have the ability to associate and assimilate much, based on key words and various other encoding used to store data, idea concepts and even the anguish that people express in their puns and jokes and sarcasms.


We need to be careful in this site as to how other systems may scan and use data, to use the anguish people spew in puns and sarcasms, to find ways to make use of it, to misdirect and distract those of such anguish, to be led on tangents that move then to a distance, while other agenda is being promoted right under their noses...

Analytic's is a very intricate thing, and its would be wise for people to realize its potentials for both good and for not so good things that can and has generated harm.


New World Order - The Big Game

[FiveGoodMen]

1. This is how civil I'm willing to be

When they go low, we beat the motherfuckers' heads into the ground and leave them there to rot.

[Civic Justice]

2. Be Careful, As we know many Democrats are not hoarders of weapons and amo, Republican Are!!!!

Republican have already demonstrated that they do not have a civil conscience, by the taking of kids from their parents, and all the killing of family members, shooting up schools and a host of vile malice minded mayhem and murder... They have demonstrated their level of Savagery....

We have to think smart when dealing with Savages... and develop plan and strategy of what we want to promote, and how we want to achieve it and explain it to the people to gain the support and backing of the people. "that's power" and power has force... and we retain Civility in our processes.

[FiveGoodMen]

3. You're proposing a course of action that has done nothing but lose

They say nasty things and no one cares.

We try to be nice and they just call us names and take all the power.

Not gonna watch my words to suit the pukes.

[Civic Justice]

4. I said nothing about being nice...

I said being "strategic" and plan our course and actions and execute it, which can be done and not destroy Civility in the process... The civility of it may become batter and bruised, (which it already is !!!)... but, our plan would include plans to also heal the civility and invoke what ever is necessary upon the uncivil and subversive and treasonous elements that threaten Our Democracy and Our Democratic System of Governing our Democracy. WE WILL NOT ACCEPT AUTOCRATIC RULE, NOR AUTOCRATIC POLICIES AND NO FACTION OF DICTATORIAL DOMINANCE, NOR WILL WE ALLOW ANY OVER TAKE BY MONARCHIC PREMISE OF THE WEALTHY DICTATING LIFE OF THE AMERICAN CITIZENS.

Where as the Republican Plan, which is based and designed upon the Antebellum Confederate Model, of Autocratic Design and Premise and Antebellum based Monarchic aims of control by the wealthy over the poor, we know such a system has no concern for Civility for anyone but themselves and they are not willing to be civil even in that pursuit to any of its own membership who does not fall in line and become subservient to such madness. Therefore, we have to be strategic, and know our options and not be afraid to utilize the options which do EXIST In the whole of things.

I posted about an options the other day, and people panicked. but that option, as unfavorable and unwanted as it is, the Declaration of Independence outlined what that option Can be.

It also warned that Prudence.... is necessary before any such course of option is engaged or exercised.

it said:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;

When a Savage knows that the Civil Minded People are willing to act and have strategic plan, and will use the options available, without taking options off the table... Then the cowardliness of the Savage will show itself...

People should review and seek to learn much from the Revolution that Established America as an Independent Nation in the form of A Democracy managed by Representative Governance principles, and review and learn from the Civil War that Solidified the United States as a Civil and Civic Responsible Democracy for American People... then we know that we are equipped to meet the challenge to sustain it and the fortitude to protect it and the will to improve it , and in doing so to take the measures necessary to 'eradicate subversive elements"... and if that means we become a nation that has to do some unthinkable things to remove the subversive rabid Right Wing Element and its backers, then in pursuit to protect Democracy, that is the choice we Must be willing to undertake.

We have to be with the composure of a Prize Fighter, if they go in the ring on pure emotion, no matter their skill, the outcome may not be in their favor. the skilled Fighter is Prepared and with the mental training of mindset to stay focused to be enabled to execute effectively.

[Civic Justice]

6. The sad thing about American history is, Lincoln had compassion on the backers of Confederates

and allowed too many of their leaders and officer and office holders of the Confederacy, to have access back into our Union. Because he was focused on the economics... and took sight off the vile that drove the Confederacy in the first place. Then Andrew Johnson, being a Confederate Sympathizer, gave the Confederates access and inroads back into our Governance and Gave back plantation land to the former Slaver's.....

We as a society won't make such a mistake again, if ever this nation descended into such a scenario.

We again made a grave mistake when we opened the doors and allowed Europeans to flood into America like a tidal wave, "unchecked" and "un screened for their ideals and mentality"... and in came a mass of people from Serfdom, people from autocratic system, and people from peasantry who worshiped the wealthy as if the wealthy was Royalty... and they passed that mentality of madness from generation to generation.

Among early mistakes was the adoption of Slavery, to model and feed the ideals of Greed that Columbus first arrived with.

Thus so, We have major works to do... and some of that work will lead to new Amendments to the Constitution and Clarification of some of the Articles of the Constitution. FOR IMPROVEMENT IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND STABILITY ASSURANCE IN HOW OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS.

We have more knowledge now than every before in history, and we have to use the knowledge to make better this nation.

We as a nation once used Federal Troop During Re-Construction, our mistake was we withdrew them far too soon!!!!

[Hekate]

5. The other day you advocated a military coup d'etat, and today you want civility?

How does that work, exactly?

Oh, and we need to be careful what we say in this site? How does that jibe with you advocating just about the most illegal thing there is, a military takeover?

I will watch your progress with interest, Civic Justice.

[Civic Justice]

7. What do you think happen at the close of the Civil War in the South?

Please read with perspective, rather than making claims that I advocated something I did not.

I told you in the original OP you reference, that the title of the thread was POSED AS A QUESTION... what is it that you don't grasp about what you read.

do you understand what the word "SHOULD" means?
Definition of "Should" = used to indicate what is probable.
Definition of "Probable" = likely to happen or to be true but not certain.

The title was: Should we Ask Our Military to Protect Us, from Enemies Foreign and Domestic? is a "question".

Furthermore... maybe you should read what was Re-Construction, and you might learn that Federal Troop were used to Enforce it. That's a Historical Fact...not something I conjured up.

NO ONE IS LOOKING WITH AIMS OF CREATING A CIVIL WAR... but as I said before, there are people in think tanks who have already gamed out that scenario.... in the ideals of Protecting American Democracy.

Geez... think beyond what's appeasing and comfortable and you might not function in a frame of shock; history should tell you much if you review it.... as to what are options that "do" exist. it will also tell you of options that were exercised and engaged to create as well as establish this Democracy, and it will also tell you what acts and options that were engaged to protect this Democracy from the Confederate Virus that Attacked this Nation and Its Democracy.

We can heed the words of JFK..
It is time to heed the call of JFK and see civility “not as a sign of weakness." We can debate fiercely with our opponents, but the goal must not be to destroy the adversary. Democracy should be, above all, a contest between competing visions aimed at the progress of the common good. May the better ideas and the best persons win.

Lincoln held the same attitude, which is why he did not wipe out the Confederate population... ( although, I think they should have been more careful and maybe not have allowed them to gain a foothold in governance, and not have access to their former plantations, but as I said in another link... Andrew Johnson is the one who gave the plantation back to the former slave owners. and I said... the Federal Troops were withdrawn too early in Re-Construction, but again, it was Andrew Johnson who did that too.

I said also, review and learn from the Civil War that Solidified the United States as a Civil and Civic Responsible Democracy for American People... then we know that we are equipped to meet the challenge to sustain it and the fortitude to protect it and the will to improve it , and in doing so to take the measures necessary to 'eradicate subversive elements"... and if that means we become a nation that has to do some unthinkable things to remove the subversive rabid Right Wing Element and its backers, then in pursuit to protect Democracy, that is the choice we Must be willing to undertake.

Definition of "Subversive" = tending or intending to subvert or overthrow, destroy, or undermine an established or existing system, especially a legally constituted government or a set of beliefs. (such, as Our Democracy and our Democratic Way of Life)

Maybe you want to learn what is The Federalist Society, it is a Conservative Organization to Advance Conservative and Libertarian Ideals... ((Are You a Conservative or Libertarian?)
Meet the powerful group behind Trump’s judicial nominations

Evidently you underestimate your Republican Adversaries far too much.

[Hekate]

8. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, so I am told. nt

[Civic Justice]

9. I'm not taking any responsibility for your choice to have a little mind.... maybe you should

investigate things for yourself, instead of saying "so I'm told"... that's all purely on you.

[FSogol]

11. Somebody is reading those windy manifestos?

Who knew?

[Hekate]

13. Full of sound and fury they are, and I only scan them...

...because my editor's blue pencil cannot penetrate the screen, alas.

[FSogol]

24. Good, it is important to keep your sanity.

[Civic Justice]

14. Nobody forced you to read anything.. and you seem not to have the fortitude to write anything beyond

snide sarcastic remarks....

[FSogol]

23. Alas, if I only had a blog to flog.

[Bettie]

10. Civility requires

that there be some norms, some level of informal agreement on what being civil is and is not.

We don't have that.

[Civic Justice]

12. If we don't have that as Democrats, then we might need to figure out who we are?

or we will never develop a successful and unified message, therefore, we will not gain the dominance in Public Narrative, and we will not have a message that is unified and of ability to become and be clearly communicated to our masses.

Currently, our message is not known by the masses, and they have no idea what are our plans, and they have no idea how we expect to go about achieving them, because we are as is visible in this site... "on defense".... and defense can't win anything without a good offensive strategy and enact it and carry it through.

and one thing is certain... slinging pun and sarcasm... has done nothing and will do nothing, but present a demeanor and mentality of defensive character... that has no offensive message and means to inform and attract the following in the numbers we need.
Our message has not gained up the full support of independent, and we are not making inroads with Libertarians, and we are not gaining soft republicans, who may be open to make change in their ideology and become affiliated with us.

[Bettie]

15. OK. So, we're to

bow and scrape to them, to never call them out, never make them feel uncomfortable in the name of "Civility" even knowing that we will NEVER receive even the slightest similar consideration.

We (Dems) understand civility. However, there comes a point where if your opposition doesn't care for norms of behavior or any kind of decency, being "civil" isn't even possible.

I don't understand what people expect? Are we supposed to praise and stroke them all the time?

"That SHS is SO truthful! She's so kind to everyone and we adore how she ever so gently points out that all Democrats should suck it."

[Civic Justice]

17. I said....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10811000

[dumbcat]

16. By Any Mean Necessary

Is that civil enough for you?

[Civic Justice]

18. if that is what it takes to regain the premise of Civility...

I'm not the single one who determines what course we take or how its undertaken....

but I do know, and you know too, what is recorded in history, and what was done before... that's what the Civil War demonstrated.... and "NO"... I'm not advocating a Civil War... (Are you?) .... I'm saying we need to understand what drove us to a Civil War.... was the Incivility of the Confederacy.... it took the Civil War at that time to gain and spread civility.....

heck, I'm not interested in seeing us look like some rubble filled version of what some of the Middle East locations like Iraq has become , nor am I interested in us becoming a Western Version of Syria..... or to result to look like what became to be in Libya.

Are you?

I never said run out and rub Right Wing Confederate Minded Republicans with chicken feathers...while holding a hand full of 4 leaf clovers.....

[Civic Justice]

20. My message has been "Regain The Public Narrative"... and know what it means to gain it !!

and each time I speak of the value basis of Public Narrative... people attack it as if they have no understanding of what is the value of Public Narrative and they don't seem to grasp the meaning of what Public Narrative is to the America people....

Sadly, the Republican know the value of it, and they are adamant to keep promoting their Public Narrative and their base is unshakable behind that public narrative they espouse, no matter how vile it is. Unfortunate as it is, they have an underlying premise within their narrative that emboldens their followers, which is "White People Dominance" and "White People Privilege", "White Nationalism" and "White Control of America" and "White Supremacy".....

We better figure out real quick.. how to make our underlying premise be "Equality"... and make damn sure that ALL our following is as Adamant about Equality!!!... and be as driven to promote and support it and push for the spread of it, as Republican is about White Dominance.

[Duncan Grant]

19. NYT OpEd: White America's Age-Old, Misguided Obsession With Civility

I began my day with this op-ed. It rang so true - that I'm still hearing the resonance. ymmv.

White America's Age-Old, Misguided Obsession With Civility

"King aimed some of his harshest words toward advocates of civility, whose concerns aligned with the hand-wringing of many of today’s politicians and pundits. From his Birmingham jail cell, King wrote: “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’.” King knew that whites’ insistence on civility usually stymied civil rights."

[Civic Justice]

21. I can agree... as I said... In the process of Equality, Civility may become Battered and Bruised...

and suffer some deeply injurious realizations, in order to build a New Civility based on Equality !!!!

What we do know... is "The Fallacy and Fiction of Civility based on Repression, Oppression, and Suppression is not Equality based Civility.... and it serves no element of Justice in and unto Society.

Conservatives want to Conserve the Fallacy and Fiction based concept of Civility they see as White Dominance ....

We as a society have had enough of that!!!

Justice comes through the fights to make it become Justice. "Equality Based Civility", has been fought against in America for 100's of years. And as you pointed out... the white moderates are as dangerous to "Equality Based Civility" as is the Conservatives who seek to Conserve the Fallacy and Fiction based Concept of Civility they see as White Dominance.

[northremembers]

22. They picked the rules they want to play by

It doesn't matter what rules we want to play by. Their rules changed decades ago and these are the rules our country runs on now. This is the 20th anniversary of Clinton's impeachment. That was part of a witch hunt that began when Republicans took control of Congress and continued even after the impeachment. Rush Limbaugh, Fox, Benghazi Hearings, 2nd Amendment Solutions, Birthers. This is who we are as a nation. It's not pretty, it's not what we want, but this isn't going to go away. Republicans have been winning with this and aren't going to change on their own.

In the Byzantine Empire after one emperor was overthrown his children's eyes were put out to keep them from seeking revenge. Once this line was crossed putting out the eyes of deposed families became standard procedure. The new normal. All of US respect the grim reality of anything is acceptable. The Republicans will only respect it when it happens to them, but it also means that we are accepting this new normal. It's normal whether we accept it or not. As we watch the last remnants or our democracy disappear we need to accept we are in a fight and the only choices are victory or defeat. There is no purple America where liberals and conservatives work together and cooperate because they have no respect for us.

It's their rules and if we want things to be different we are going to have to win with the rules we have.

[Civic Justice]

25. and/or look at the "options that do exist"... even if the options may be extreme....

unto and against what has become the unacceptable norm....

We know without a doubt... that Republican and its Right Wing Backing... has an underlying premise that drives their narrative and promotes their agenda that emboldens their followers, and that premise is to create, promote and sustain a system of "White People Dominance" and "White People Privilege", "White Nationalism" and "White Control of America" and "White Supremacy".....

and that stands against everything that support the basis of Democracy Of and For ALL American People.

Trump has advocated for the usage of "white violence" as was used against minorities in the 1960's..... therefore... we need not be blind to the vile and malice that we are faced with... nor shall we be void of knowing what options exist, they may need to be undertaken to deal with it.

Watch For Yourself if you have any doubts about what we are up against... !!

Where will moderate white people stand??? is something All Equality Loving and Equality Respecting Democrats should want to know !!!

[northremembers]

26. It's harder for liberals

All conservatives have to do is keep us (everybody) divided to keep their power. The more scarcity there is the more we squabble amongst ourselves. Liberals have to actually produce results and those results can only be achieved through cooperation. Hence the liberal desire for civility. Many liberals look at the protests of the 60's and view them as productive. There were two phases. The first was relatively peaceful (but still confrontational) and highly organized. That work produced the civil rights legislation we are trying to cling to now. The second phase was angry, violent, and appeared less organized. Those protests produced the Nixon administration and drove many working class Americans into the arms of conservative affiliation.

Conservatives are not going to be partners. They are not going to share power or listen to reason. They don't care about anything but themselves and their power. We have to fight them with more powerful versions of the same weapons they use. As liberals, we also have to keep a strong ideological message visible to everyone that guides where our victories lead to. Think of Wilson's 14 Points as we entered WWI or FDR's Atlantic Conference before we entered WWII. We cannot simply be idealists. We have to be idealists as we fight.

You make the point that we are ineffective at getting our message out. You are completely correct. We need to understand how big the deficit of information there is. They have AM Radio, bots, Fox, public education, and fake economic system that has never worked without driving up debt but still has many Nobel Prizes. Our whole history has been successfully revised and campaign slogans will not overturn this massive conservative intellectual infrastructure.

Different things need to happen at the same time. We need to win elections and maintain power with the rules Republicans have created for themselves. We need to embark on a deep reeducation of as many people as possible. We have to maintain a proper narrative in real time. We also have to maintain our ideological connection with the general population. Different people have different strengths, but liberal leadership needs to push forward in all ways because conservatives have been doing this for decades.