Some atheist scientists with children embrace religious traditions, according to new Rice research

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=16513&SnID=1659488659

12/1/2011

David Ruth
713-348-6327
[e-mail]

Amy Hodges
713-348-6777
[e-mail]

Some atheist scientists with children embrace religious traditions, according to new Rice research

Study reveals 17 percent of atheists with children are involved in religious institutions for social and personal reasons

Some atheist scientists with children embrace religious traditions for social and personal reasons, according to research from Rice University and the University at Buffalo -- The State University of New York (SUNY).

The study also found that some atheist scientists want their children to know about different religions so their children can make informed decisions about their own religious preferences.

"Our research shows just how tightly linked religion and family are in U.S. society -- so much so that even some of society's least religious people find religion to be important in their private lives," said Rice sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund, the study's principal investigator and co-author of a paper in the December issue of the http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/journal.asp?ref=0021-8294">Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion.

The researchers found that 17 percent of atheists with children attended a religious service more than once in the past year.

…

[MineralMan]

1. My parents, both atheists, sent me and my siblings to Sunday

school at a local church on a regular basis. When I asked them about that years later, they said that they believed we needed to understand the dominant religion of the society we lived in. So we went. Two of us are non-believers as adults. The other is an occasional church-goer, but not particularly religiously oriented. Looking back, it seems like a wise decision on the part of my parents. We made our own decisions.

[SecularMotion]

2. More "believers" just going through the motions.

[MarkCharles]

3. A very common occurrence among families with atheists in them, and

so many religious people feel surprised to find out that most atheists grew up within a family that had enabled their children to partake in the traditional religiouc background of the family.

Atheists don't just come from non-conforming parents who are atheists or agnostics and non-religious attendees. Atheists very often come out of families with a long tradition of church membership.

Atheists even put up Christmas trees, and give gifts on the holiday. Some hang stockings and talk to their children as if Santa Claus existed. I don't agree with it, but I respect anyone's free choice, as long as they think about it .

[humblebum]

4. And far from all atheists are blatantly anti-religious either. nt

[MarkCharles]

5. Didn't you accuse me of being anti-religious just yesterday?

Your point?

[humblebum]

6. This is not the post that I expected you to jump to next. nt

[MarkCharles]

8. You have already built up quite a false fear fantasy of me in real life, I can see.

Somehow you think because I am not buying an overly simplistic view of world history, nor the idea that you fully understand the actual meaning of the word, epistemology, (simply a prominent branch of the study of the philosophy of knowledge, NOT "another way of knowing"), that I am at the same time a chief henchman for Pol Pot, an apologist for Stalin, while being ignorant of all 19th and 20th century history of Communism, and that I'm one who somehow is happy to ignore the nation with the most people on the planet, China, most of whom never ever have been Christians.

[humblebum]

9. Never let it be said that your ego is inflated, nor that you are an amateur

historian and philosopher at best. (Sarcasm, of course)

[MarkCharles]

21. I will leave it to you to remind me of how humble I should be.

Ironic as that may seem. Actually, your continued targeting of just one poster, me, means I'm getting to you, and you're finding it necessary to reply, make personal digs, whatever.

Enjoy your stay here.

[deacon_sephiroth]

7. (sh)it happens. I attended Christian Accademy

Though both my parents were either atheist or at least agnostic, I spent many years in Christian Academy growing up... never mind that it was because I kept getting kicked out of public schools (I was kind of a little bastard)

[MarkCharles]

10. I bet you weren't the only "little b* in one of those schools.

Some Christians will rationalize your agnosticism or atheism as a part of your adolescent rebelliousness, which you never grew out of.

We're smarter than that, and know ourselves better than that. But we still get labeled by that sort of pseudo-psychology.

[deacon_sephiroth]

12. true on both accounts

There were a lot of total shits in the place and none worse than the pastor's kids, they really thought they were royalty in their own private kingdom. His daughter (much older and bigger than me at the time) even pulled my hair and got hip-tossed as a result (I was a martial artist :P ) Of course I got in all the trouble for that one, but I cherish the memory.

I should really thank them, because I don't know if I'd be an Atheist today if not for their blatant and unapologetic hypocrisy. I actually was broken in that internment camp of a school, "saved" and all that nonsense, under threat of eternal torture at the hands of imaginary horrors, surrounded by other terrified weeping children. Looking back on their methods, it says A LOT about who and what they are and the depths they will sink to.

I would likely ba an atheist anyway because I'm prone to logic, science and to question, but I doubt I would be as "militant" as I am. I have experienced the horrors of the righteous in the South and though I have escaped, I will fight their ilk forever.

[MarkCharles]

14. Religious kids are not ALL bad, I have a few in my family, but many I have

met at religious summer camp, in college who went to religious prep schools, or just in general. They do appear to act like children of royalty.


Of course, those children of my own family who are "PK's", (pastor's kids) as they are called, I don't get to see how they act each and every day with their peers, I see them only on the "holidays".

That's part of what is so destructive about religion, and kids exposed to it without being given options to get out, they just turn out to be dogmatic anti-democratic cry babies or they act like the most entitled people in the world. I have seen this among children of the Christian and Jewish faiths, by the way, not among other faiths, so maybe the children of Buddhist leaders have found a way to make their kids act with more humility.

[humblebum]

15. Like I said, there's nothing biased about your attitude toward religious folk. LOL

[deacon_sephiroth]

18. Bias? All he said was that it's dangerous to children.

Giving them no choice, simply indoctrinating them with fear and hate, IS in fact, rather unhealthy for children. I was going to post videos of children who can't WAIT to become suicide bombers because of the loathsome adults manipulating the information they get, the brainwashing, the shameless use of the innocent youths. but I need not post the links or the video because you and I both know what it can do, where it can lead, and we BOTH know that it's not about bias.

[humblebum]

20. Bias is the strongest word I am allowed to use on DU. He has developed a habit

of making unfounded and untrue claims.

[MarkCharles]

22. Thanks for the tip-off ! I was just thinking about untrue claims.

And thinking about habits.
You are quite the prize winner in that category.

[humblebum]

27. Tell me.

When did I ever say that you were anything like Pol Pot, as you have claimed? The only connection is atheism, and you have made that false claim more than once. show me or stop making the claim. And where did you get the idea that an epistemology is not a way of knowing. Indeed, epistemology is a branch of philosophy, and "way of knowing" is a very common term used to describe such.

http://epistemology.posterous.com/perrys-ways-of-knowing

http://calldrmatt.com/TruthClaims.htm

http://www.boisestate.edu/econ/lreynol/web/PDF/short_3_knowing.pdf

http://kansasreflections.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/a-reflection-on-4-epistemolgies-ways-of-knowing-p/

http://www.soc.iastate.edu/sapp/soc401science.html

[MarkCharles]

28. There's not a single thing I can tell you, that you don't already claim to "know".

If I were you, I'd brush up on the meaning of "satire" though, you seem to take what someone like me says satirically way too much to heart.

Then there's that "Epistemology" thing you keep harping about: did you READ what you sent me in those links?

In contrast to your claims that "epistemology is a branch of philosophy and "way of knowing" try this, from your own source.



"Epistemology is the study of the nature and limits of knowing."

http://www.boisestate.edu/econ/lreynol/web/PDF/short_3_knowing.pdf

[humblebum]

29. You really have trouble with seeing something staring you right

in the face, don't you?

"Epistemology is the study of the nature and limits of knowing" - Yes, I agree. And, I also said, "...epistemology is a branch of philosophy, and "way of knowing" is a very common term used to describe such." So, where's the contradiction? Every one of those examples validates what I have and have used for years.

If you are so knowledgeable on the subject, then how do you differentiate methodology from epistemology?

[MarkCharles]

31. "Whaddya Know? Epistemology for Dummies"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUNHhlu3kKk&feature=fvwp&NR=1

I think you might want to start here.

There seems to be some confusion and imprecision in your terms, and this might help you.

From there, we can advance to a discussion of various methodologies or techniques used in seeking information, facts, new discoveries, or confirmations of statement of fact or hypotheses, which MUST conform to the general principles of epistemology. Any and all valid methodologies conform to any one or more such general principles of epistemology.

[humblebum]

33. Bingo. The vid is quite a good discussion, BUT the POV that is being presented

represents one that has been, for most part, abandoned by scholars. That view, as you already know, is logical positivism aka the scientific philosophy. That is one single epistemology. Different methodologies can be applied to it, depending on the discipline utilized. It is not the ONLY epistemology.

Logical Positivism, being an epistemology, in its own right, no longer dominates. It has been replaced by other epistemologies, which ask different types of questions, hence, different ways of examining knowledge, or ways of knowing. I can cite source after source and I find it quite telling that you refer to another atheist or another atheistic reference as is common.

To admit other epistemologies and methodologies exist is indeed bothersome to the atheist because it threatens your extremely narrow-minded way of knowing.

whether or not you agree is of no concern. It has already been shown that a large number of sources recognize that there are indeed other ways of knowing.

And if you noticed, one of my sources was a Buddhist, not Christian. I also should add that I enjoyed the video and I admire the man for his honesty even though we disagree. I respect the fact that he said that it is OK to say, "I don't know."

[MarkCharles]

35. "represents one that has been, for most part, abandoned by scholars"

in favor of the "other ways of knowing" you're pushing?

Evidence? NONE!

Some people live in a fantasy world all their lives. Some people actually study and learn and don't hold their religious beliefs more valued than the actual process of learning.

Some don't, one or two or three of them posting here seem to think they are wiser than 3000 years of philosophical history.

I see one example in the above post. Does anyone else?

[humblebum]

36. Deleted

[MarkCharles]

37. Let's face it, no one believes all the fantasies you spin when you've shown you didn't even

display an understanding of the concepts of the 3000 year old philosophy of science.

You tend to make it up as you go along, and then try to kick me in the butt over my poor recall of my 45 year old education in philosophy 101 as a freshman.

Well, once in a while, you get me to go to the internet and research out what philosophic details I might have forgotten over the last 45 years, but I don't make foolish statements over and over again, in an attempt to re-define a basic philosophical concept like "epistemology"!I kind of don't budge on those basics, you kind of float along, and mis-understand the proper usage of the concept.

I don't try to sneak in some religionista's 21st century re-write of the history and concepts of the philosophy of science and knowledge in general, as to comply with your fantasy religious beliefs.

I don't do that, but you sure do!

[humblebum]

38. The fact is, you don't have a clue, and yes, you have not advanced

past the issues of 45 years ago. I was schooled in the 50's and 60's, too. So stop playing the age card.

The Collapse of Logical Positivism
The End of Logical
Positivism
Already by the 1930s the logical positivist movement had begun to fragment.
Although this was the beginning of the end, the movement continued for
several decades, and its attitudes and methods linger to this day in many
disciplines. The causes of the collapse of logical positivism can be put in
two classes, internal weakness and external criticism. I will begin with the
internal causes.

http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/Classes/UH267/handouts/WFI/c8.pdf

[humblebum]

39. Those who contributed to the many websites I have used as evidence

believe what you term as fantasies. You have produced very little to back your assertions, aside from atheist propaganda.

[MarkCharles]

23. My attitude towards religious folks? Bias? Or healthy skepticism?..

I guess you've already pre-judged me on the deciding factors for that, based upon rather random anecdotal evidence.
Isn't that what we call a "prejudice"?

[humblebum]

24. If you want to spend you life in denial, that's your choice. And, I am hardly prejudging.

I formed my opinions after the fact.

[cleanhippie]

25. ...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, sure you did!

[MarkCharles]

26. Yeah, that one rated about the biggest smile of the week for me, too!

Hey, I'm open to being a bit haughty and boastful, at times, and honest about it. I'm even often mistaken or confused, but I'm hardly any rival to the prejudicial behaviors I see in Christians in general or even from SOME of the posts I see here!

[qb]

11. I don't view celebrating holidays ("holy days") as embracing religious traditions.

Meanings change.

Everywhere I look, Christmas is about lights, evergreens, good food, and exchanging gifts. This is far removed from the religious tradition of celebrating the virgin birth of the Christian god in human form.

Likewise for Easter. What's so religious about rabbits, colorful eggs and candy?

[MarkCharles]

13. Nice post! I always buy a few chocolate Easter eggs, for me and

the kids, and go to a few parties at Christmas just to be close to family and friends.

[OKIsItJustMe]

17. That’s not what this is about

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-5906.2011.01604.x/abstract

Atheists and Agnostics Negotiate Religion and Family

…

Abstract

Through in-depth interviews with scientists at elite academic institutions—those particularly likely to have no firm belief in God—we provide insight into the motives scientists who are not religious have for joining a religious group and the struggle faced by these individuals in reconciling personal beliefs with what they consider the best interests of their families. Narratives stress the use of resources from identities as scientists to provide their children with religious choices consistent with science and in negotiating spousal influence and a desire for community. Findings expand the religious socialization and identities literatures by widening the range of understanding of the strategies parents utilize to interface with religious communities as well as lead to more nuanced public understanding of how atheist and agnostic scientists relate to religious communities.

…

http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=16513&SnID=1659488659

…

Ecklund said one of the most interesting findings was discovering that not only do some atheist scientists wish to expose their children to religious institutions, but they also cite their scientific identity as reason for doing so.

"We thought that these individuals might be less inclined to introduce their children to religious traditions, but we found the exact opposite to be true," Ecklund said. "They want their children to have choices, and it is more consistent with their science identity to expose their children to all sources of knowledge."

…

[MarkCharles]

19. Exposure, choices, freedom, consistency with scientific approaches: makes sense.

One would ask why parents who are religious, or why all adults who are religious don't approach the topic of religion with the
same spirit of openness, why they most often don't go around and read about other faiths early in their adult life, rather than sticking with the one they grew up in.

It's an interesting question, seldom answered by believers who have stuck with the same faith they were raised within.

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. Well, a key tenet of many religion is that it is the only true religion

“Fundamentalist” parents of any sort are unlikely to be very flexible in bringing up their children (would you allow your child to follow a path you were certain led straight to Hell, or its equivalent?)

More liberal believers are more likely to expose their children to alternatives.

[MarkCharles]

32. I agree, more, but not a lot more. How many Catholic parents allow

their child of 10-16 to explore the Jewish faith, Bahai, Buddhism, or even the teachings of the Episcopal church?

[OKIsItJustMe]

34. Well… Roman Catholicism isn’t exactly the most liberal sect around

Try a “mainline protestant” church or Quakers or “Unitarian Universalists” or “Reform Judaism” or Bahá'í Faith or…

I know protestant “pastors” who take “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation">confirmation classes” to a variety of religious services as part of teaching basic comparative religion.

[NashVegas]

40. Nice To See That Almost 20% of Atheists Are Open Minded

and allowing their children to decide for themselves.

[beam me up scottie]

16. I put up a tree, wreaths and lights because my bf loves them.

Every year, his mom drags a cheap 4 footer out of the closet and sticks it in a corner in the basement. No extra lights, no decorations, it's pretty bleak. That's the way she's always done it, even when he and his brothers were little kids.

I draw the line at going to church, though, I tried that years ago and if they can guilt you into doing it once, they'll never leave you alone.
I tell them that I'm not a christian, to have a good time and I'll see them when they get back.

I really miss decorating the house with my mom, so following in her footsteps and keeping her traditions makes me feel closer to her.

My ornaments and decorations are all inspired by nature, real pine cones, berries, bird nests, ribbons from corn leaves and dried flowers painted holiday colours.

We're considering getting jingle bells for our horses this year - the ones with led lights all over them and Santa hats to fit over their halters. :)


No religion required.